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AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:41 pm
by KLAM
I was looking at AC seat maps on their website and remembered some time ago a discussion was going on about the 77W being "upgraded" to match the 787s. Which 777s have the new configuration? Are there any pics?
I flew one of the YUL based 77Ws to LHR with the high density configurations. Are these going to be changed as well in order to have the same J seats? On my way back, I flew a two class 77W to YYZ, and I honestly could not feel a difference, but this was because on none of the flights did I have someone sitting right next to me.

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:26 am
by briguychau
A list is here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-c...ans-refurbish-18-its-777-a-50.html

All 777s will be changed to the new J pods (including the high density ones).

[Edited 2016-03-10 17:27:04]

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:36 pm
by N1120A
I think going to the new pod on the Big Berths HDs is a mistake. The Vantage seat is a competitive product and going to the new seat costs them 8 J seats, with no corresponding gain on anything else. The new seat is great and is excellent for the lower density, but now 400 seat, birds, but it seems pretty poorly applied on the heavier ones.

Anyway, I think many, if not most of the regular density planes have them. I don't think any of the Berthas do.

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:00 pm
by WildcatYXU
Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
The Vantage seat is a competitive product and going to the new seat costs them 8 J seats, with no corresponding gain on anything else.

Well, if you look at FT's AC forum, you'll see that many of the top tier flyers strongly dislike the J product on the original * HD planes. I'm not a big fan myself either, but I'm just a lowly E50K, so nobody cares what I think. Not to mention that AC is charging for it's J product quite a buck, so having a consistent J product is a good idea. And as for losing 8 seats, well, it looks like they can't consistently sell all of them anyway. And since they decided that they will limit "cheapening the product" by giving out upgrades to their elites, there is simply no need for so many J seats. This is in line with the other triples anyway, since they're replacing the small J cabin with a W cabin on those birds.


*I called them original because now every newer AC widebody is HD

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:46 pm
by roseflyer
Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
I think going to the new pod on the Big Berths HDs is a mistake. The Vantage seat is a competitive product and going to the new seat costs them 8 J seats, with no corresponding gain on anything else. The new seat is great and is excellent for the lower density, but now 400 seat, birds, but it seems pretty poorly applied on the heavier ones.

Lots of airlines do use the Vantage seat, but it wasn't very popular at Air Canada. It's interesting to see how different airlines and customers perceive the same seat. Everyone I see raves about the seat on Swiss, yet Air Canada flyers complained about it. The physical dimensions of the seat in flat mode and size of the footwell are on the small side for fully flat business class seats. The seats are staggered and contoured to have variable width so that it is wider in the middle, but it is essentially a 10 abreast seating configuration. So while it works well for some airlines, it doesn't work well for everyone and Air Canada flyers were used to the big wide seats in the herringbone configuration.

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:15 pm
by WildcatYXU
Quoting roseflyer (Reply 4):
So while it works well for some airlines, it doesn't work well for everyone and Air Canada flyers were used to the big wide seats in the herringbone configuration.

I'd say it works well for airlines where J is second class - such as LX. Where J is the top offering, travelers expect better seats.

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:26 pm
by longhauler
By the time the conversions are complete, there will be two B77W configurations. A 400 seat version and a 450 seat HD version.

The 400 seat version is configured 44J, 24W and 336Y. All three classes are sold internationally, and in North America the 24W are sold as Y seats.

The 450 seat HD version is configured 28J, 24W and 398Y. Like the other version the 24W seats are sold as Y when flying in North America.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 5):
I'd say it works well for airlines where J is second class - such as LX. Where J is the top offering, travelers expect better seats.

J fares are the same. I can't imagine a passenger is willing to accept a lesser product simply because an F cabin exists.

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:35 pm
by pasu129

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:40 pm
by WildcatYXU
Quoting longhauler (Reply 6):
J fares are the same. I can't imagine a passenger is willing to accept a lesser product simply because an F cabin exists.

Apparently yes. How else could LX and especially LH get away with subpar J product for such long time?

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:41 pm
by krisyyz
I believe AC has two more 77Ws on order, which seem to be coming in the HD config. Besides AF's 2 Class B77Ws, will AC's HD config be the highest capacity 77W for a "legacy airline"?

I'm not an FA, but on the HD birds, there only seems to be 2 galleys serving 422 Y pax. Pulling those carts from essentially the back of the aircraft, with narrow aisles, doesn't sound fun or efficient.

KrisYYZ

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:09 pm
by N1120A
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 3):
Well, if you look at FT's AC forum, you'll see that many of the top tier flyers strongly dislike the J product on the original * HD planes.

FT's AC forum has a lot of issues, that is just one  
Quoting roseflyer (Reply 4):
The seats are staggered and contoured to have variable width so that it is wider in the middle, but it is essentially a 10 abreast seating configuration.

No it isn't 10 abreast. It is, at most, 6 abreast.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 3):
And as for losing 8 seats, well, it looks like they can't consistently sell all of them anyway

I don't think that is an issue. Plus, it isn't like you "cheapen" the product by having top tier elites, like my wife on AC, upgrade.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 3):
This is in line with the other triples anyway, since they're replacing the small J cabin with a W cabin on those birds.

They are not losing nearly as many seats on the others.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 9):
Besides AF's 2 Class B77Ws, will AC's HD config be the highest capacity 77W for a "legacy airline"?

Yes.

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:19 am
by longhauler
Quoting krisyyz (Reply 9):
I believe AC has two more 77Ws on order, which seem to be coming in the HD config

They will seat 400.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 9):
Besides AF's 2 Class B77Ws, will AC's HD config be the highest capacity 77W for a "legacy airline"?

Ironically enough, it was AF's use of their HD B777s on YUL-CDG that started the concept of a subfleet of higher density aircraft.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 8):
Apparently yes. How else could LX and especially LH get away with subpar J product for such long time?

But you have to admit ... it would be a very strange thought process. "All J fares are the same, but I am going with the inferior product because the aircraft also has an F cabin, which not only won't I experience, but I probably wont even see!"

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:27 am
by roseflyer
Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
Quoting roseflyer (Reply 4):
The seats are staggered and contoured to have variable width so that it is wider in the middle, but it is essentially a 10 abreast seating configuration.

No it isn't 10 abreast. It is, at most, 6 abreast.

It depends on how you measure. It is 4 or 6 abreast at 40 inch pitch or 10 abreast at 80 inch pitch. The footwell extends between the seats so the actual seat cushion that you sit on is rather narrow. The design works well, but still results in a tight space when reclined. The new design provides more space when in bed mode.

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:08 am
by jfk777
The Air Canada HD 77W gives new definition to how to squeeze them in. Canada airline heritage was great with CP Air and Canadian but today's Air Canada has really become a People's Express, not on a good way.

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:20 am
by Viscount724
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
The Air Canada HD 77W gives new definition to how to squeeze them in.

No worse than most other 10-abreast 77Ws.

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:18 pm
by KLAM
wow thanks for the answers. I guess this solves my doubts.

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:26 pm
by N1120A
Quoting roseflyer (Reply 12):
It depends on how you measure. It is 4 or 6 abreast at 40 inch pitch or 10 abreast at 80 inch pitch. The footwell extends between the seats so the actual seat cushion that you sit on is rather narrow. The design works well, but still results in a tight space when reclined.

I don't find the space tight at all, and most seat designs sort of extend into the other seat. The B/E Diamond certainly is no different. It certainly isn't 10 abreast.

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:30 pm
by skipness1E
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
The Air Canada HD 77W gives new definition to how to squeeze them in. Canada airline heritage was great with CP Air and Canadian but today's Air Canada has really become a People's Express, not on a good way.

They offer what the market will use at the right price. If you think the CP Air / Wardair level of service is a practical consideration today, you have to wonder why no one offers it. Because it would lose money? What's heritage got to do with anything? Wardair binned their heritage the day they bought A310s and Fokkers.

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:30 pm
by briguychau
Quoting krisyyz (Reply 9):
I believe AC has two more 77Ws on order, which seem to be coming in the HD config.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 11):
They will seat 400.

They'll be in the 450-seat config. By summer 2016 there will be 7x 77W in the 450 config, which is slated to operate:

1x YVR-LHR
1x YVR-HKG
1x YVR-PEK
1x YVR-YYZ
1x YUL-LHR
2x YUL-CDG

RE: AC And Their 77Ws

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:46 am
by jfk777
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):

No worse than most other 10-abreast 77Ws.

AC HD 77W suffer from too few bathrooms for 400 people and too few galleys for all those passengers. That is the difference from other 10 seat per row 77W. The galley in the HD version is all the way in the rear which means the poor FA have to schlep the food carts all the way to the front of the Y cabon. Surprising the AC FA union has not had an issue with that.