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GrahamR
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:24 pm

Being a public-spirited sort of chap, I thought it would be helpful to look around and choose the best site for a new Leeds airport to replace LBA, which is of course not fit for purpose. Yes, I know I am using an out-of-date map and the motorway layouts are a bit different nowadays, but that has no bearing on my proposed location for the main runway.

Yes, I realise that other things need to be added in such as taxiways and airport terminals and car parks and a railway station. My plans would also include the establishment of the new Yorkshire Regional Parliament on this site, so plenty of space would need to be provided for that.

My hope is that, in time, the region and the nation will be grateful for my far-sightedness, ha ha ha....

 
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Ytraveller
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:31 pm

I suggest you change the title to something like 'My proposal for a new Leeds Airport', because the current title sounds like there are official plans to build a new airport.
 
GrahamR
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:41 pm

It does sound a bit that way, doesn't it. I'm going to leave it as it is, thanks   
 
boysteve
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:54 pm

Quoting GrahamR (Thread starter):
Yes, I know I am using an out-of-date map and the motorway layouts are a bit different nowadays, but that has no bearing on my proposed location for the main runway.

I disagree, using an up to date map would be a better start. It would help your cause to as everyone would see that this location is quite convenient for the M1-A1(M) link road.

However it might have been better to chose a location a little flatter and with rail access to Leeds/York/Sheffield. Why not move the runway 3km/2 miles to the SSW. It would run closer to the new M1 extension and the terminal area could border the Leeds-York/Hull railway line where a station could be built. Trains currently run along here connecting Leeds/Sheffield/Bradford/York and major towns towards Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle.

I too think that you need to change the title of this thread even though you have considered it again already. 'My proposal to replace LBA' is more accurate than the current thread title.

[Edited 2016-03-12 12:56:22]
 
GrahamR
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:10 pm

Hello Bob

Yes, I'm perfectly happy with all of that. The only things I would point out are that (i) the site is pretty close to the existing rail network (ii) the possibility exists to re-establish the now disused rail track running up towards Thorner (which, I concede, might not be too clear on the map) and (iii) if you know the area, you will also know that it is flatter than the location you have in mind.

But we're fine tuning here, don't you think? It won't have escaped your notice that I am trying to be just a little bit provocative, hence the thread title. This wonderful country of ours has its strengths, but making significant decisions on major infrastructure takes us far too long. LBA is the wrong airport in the wrong place, but I guess it will take twenty to thirty years for anything to be done about it. Let's start the discussion a.s.a.p.
 
GrahamR
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:16 pm

Another thing is... assuming that most flights would take off towards the West, I wanted there to be more space available before overflying the more heavily populated areas. I sort of pointed it towards Roundhay Park lake
 
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eurowings
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:17 pm

Demolish LBA and get the high speed rail line to MAN built ASAP.   
"Freddie Laker may be at peace with his Maker, but he is persona non grata with IATA."- HRH Duke of Edinburgh
 
GrahamR
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:29 pm

MAN is my preferred airport, given my current place of abode. What route do you have in mind for a high speed rail line that would be better than what we have now?? Is it really, sensibly, practically doable?? I'm not saying you're wrong, mind
 
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eurowings
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:01 pm

If it can be assumed that the budget is limitless, then I'd propose a complete tunnel direct from Leeds and Bradford underneath the Pennines to MAN, in the manner that some of the new HSR lines in Italy or Switzerland have been constructed. Given the level of infrastructure spending in the UK that is unrealistic, even if the region in question is championed by the "Northern Powerhouse". As a resident of the "West Midlands Engine of Growth", we are getting the HSR first supposedly....
"Freddie Laker may be at peace with his Maker, but he is persona non grata with IATA."- HRH Duke of Edinburgh
 
GrahamR
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Posts: 28
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:25 pm

Hi Oliver

Yup, sounds good to me. Okay, let me tell you where I stand. I believe the UK is very badly governed, too centralised, and I want to see a Federal UK. The West Midlands, in my Federal UK, would be self governing with its own Parliament, as would Yorkshire, the South-West, the Northland, etc, etc. Our regions are the same size (economy and population) as many European countries and U.S. States. To grow and prosper, they all need great infrastructure. Where I live, our growth prospects would be constrained through the absence of a good airport. MAN and BHX are great, and Leeds needs something a lot better than it has now. We would all be collecting our own revenue and setting our own budgets, sending a small portion to Westminster to pay for Defence and Foreign Office stuff...
 
PlymSpotter
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:43 pm

Quoting GrahamR (Thread starter):

Being a public-spirited sort of chap, I thought it would be helpful to look around and choose the best site for a new Leeds airport to replace LBA, which is of course not fit for purpose.

Says who? As you'll see when you take a close look at the contours, the local Yorkshire topography is not very favourable to a design requiring a large and predominantly flat area of space, also requiring two clear approach paths at each end. This means you end up having to build on relatively high ground, to avoid these ground clearance issues... just like LBA is right now.

The site you propose isn't too bad internally, although you would probably be moving in the region of 10 million cubic meters of material to level it out - the kind of runway you are looking at cannot have a gradient exceeding 1% (realistically exceeding 0.5% is unwise in a new design) and requires the runway to sit in a 300m wide strip of flat land known as the clearway, with an additional 300m of basically flat safety area at each end of the threshold. Your runway looks about 2,500-3000m, so you'd need to add those areas in as well, which increases the footprint a lot.

However your main problem is that immediately to the West the land rises sharply from 70-80m ASL to around 120m ASL. This fouls your approach and landing airspace surfaces, meaning a huge displaced threshold would be required, probably shortening the runway to about half the intended length.

Quoting GrahamR (Thread starter):
My plans would also include the establishment of the new Yorkshire Regional Parliament on this site,

What did thy put in t'brew?

If this sort of thing interests you, download "CAP 168", or EASA equivalent and start reading. Also download Google SketchUp 0 great tool for doodles. This is basically how I progressed from landscape architecture to airport design. And then ended up in ad-tech...


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
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eurowings
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:46 pm

Hello Graham,

In this instance I completely agree with you. I have always believed in a greater level of regional devolution, not only to further air transport but to equip the regions with the mechanisms to implement tailored growth strategies,
"Freddie Laker may be at peace with his Maker, but he is persona non grata with IATA."- HRH Duke of Edinburgh
 
Armodeen
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Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:27 am

Quoting eurowings (Reply 6):
Demolish LBA and get the high speed rail line to MAN built ASAP.

Demolish LBA and build links to MAN and DSA :P
 
kdhurst380
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:52 am

RE: Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:16 pm

To justify the cost of any new airport, it would need to extend its catchment area much more significantly than it does now. I live in Sheffield and as much as LBA raves about being Yorkshire's airport, it only really serves to be convenient to those who live in West & North Yorkshire. I can get to MAN on one train in about the same amount of time as it takes to get to Leeds itself, then get on a bus that goes all round the houses to the airport.

Surface access is a massive consideration. Although I will give credit where credit is due, your proposed runway orientation is an improvement on what it currently is. Most UK runways are orientated in the 220-270/040-090 range which fits in with prevailing South Westerly winds. LBA's current 14/32 proves troublesome when the prevailing winds are strong.

The fine tuning as you put it is as important a consideration as everything else, its a lack of fine tuning in the past that has given us the kind of issues we have in airport infrastructure today, Heathrow for example is a constant building site because someone decided building everything in the middle would be a good idea, so things have to be chopped, changed and moved around the meet the needs of the modern hub airport.

[Edited 2016-03-13 08:17:31]
 
SelseyBill
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RE: Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:21 pm

Quoting GrahamR (Thread starter):
I thought it would be helpful to look around and choose the best site for a new Leeds airport to replace LBA, which is of course not fit for purpose.

Not entirely sure the whole premise of your question regarding a new airport has any weight, when there is plenty of opportunity for further growth within the existing infrastructure. Best development for LBA to come will be a new rail link on the Leeds-Harrogate-York line that will further improve accessibility and business.

I have however long held the view that the Greater Yorkshire area would benefit from one central airport. Sheffield City Airport was unfortunately a failure, and calling DSA Robin Hood Airport out at Finningley 'Sheffields' Airport is a bit or a reach. We also have HUY out near Barnetby on Humberside. It would have been great 10-15 years ago given the industrial decline in 'Greater Yorkshire' if planners had collectively said to LBA, SZD, DSA and HUY; look were going to build a new central Yorkshire airport so don't consider any major development at your sites; but I wouldn't have expected John Prescott to have that much sense or vision.

If you're looking for a possible 'projected' site; I would be looking for a brownfield site somewhere in the Barnsley/ Wath area between Sheffield/ Rotherham/ Doncaster/ Wakefield/ Huddersfield central to the 5 million population and with existing railway infrastructure.

The obvious sites that jumps out at me are the two former railway marshalling yards at Wath or Healey Mills; Healey Mills is still a undeveloped wasteland, but I think Wath has been developed. 15/20 years agto tho'; who knows ?
 
goosebayguy
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RE: Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:05 pm

One thing is for certain. LBA is almost impossible to get to.
 
kdhurst380
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:52 am

RE: Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:37 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 14):
I have however long held the view that the Greater Yorkshire area would benefit from one central airport. Sheffield City Airport was unfortunately a failure, and calling DSA Robin Hood Airport out at Finningley 'Sheffields' Airport is a bit or a reach. We also have HUY out near Barnetby on Humberside. It would have been great 10-15 years ago given the industrial decline in 'Greater Yorkshire' if planners had collectively said to LBA, SZD, DSA and HUY; look were going to build a new central Yorkshire airport so don't consider any major development at your sites; but I wouldn't have expected John Prescott to have that much sense or vision.

I agree, being in Sheffield is a bit of a rut as far as airports are concerned, I'm in the middle of four more or less equidistant airports, two of which are in Yorkshire, one in the Midlands (two if you go a little further and count BHX) and one over t'other side of Pennines. Either way, it takes at least an hour to get to any of them (I don't drive so that's what I base my timings on).

I'm in the school of thought that SZD was just not given a chance, airports takes years and years to prove themselves, what did SZD get, a decade? Peel Airports also own DSA and had a shiny new terminal there that they wanted to make something out of, so why bother with SZD. Let's face it, DSA has hardly been a roaring success. They've got a false wall up creating a void space on one side because they can't fill it. It's no surprise really when the people of Sheffield can get to Manchester easier than their 'own' airport.

All that aside, all these airports have one thing in common; poor surface access. The most successful airports in the UK are connected by rail and have one or no changes required, and the service is frequent. I've done Sheffield to DSA and it involved changing at Doncaster railway station and getting on a regular commuter bus with all the stops en route.

Unfortunately, the UK overall has a terrible view of airports, they'll happily use them to go on their holidays and to far flung exotic destinations, they want them to be easy and convenient to get to, but they don't want it anywhere near them. As a result, nothing will ever change.
 
SelseyBill
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:38 pm

RE: Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:22 pm

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 16):
I'm in the school of thought that SZD was just not given a chance, airports takes years and years to prove themselves, what did SZD get, a decade? Peel Airports also own DSA and had a shiny new terminal there that they wanted to make something out of, so why bother with SZD. Let's face it, DSA has hardly been a roaring success. They've got a false wall up creating a void space on one side because they can't fill it. It's no surprise really when the people of Sheffield can get to Manchester easier than their 'own' airport.

Yup, real shame what happened to SZD, the old Tinsley railway yards site was ideal for a city/regional airport for Sheffield, and but for the absolute blind stupidity of a few planners, SZD were denied a short runway extension that would have permitted B737/A320 ops, with more competitive prices.

I understand one company; ('Cityflyer' I guess); were willing to stump up development costs at SZD in return for exclusive use, but this was rejected, and never confirmed publically.

I'm pretty sure if this rescue plan had been approved we would have seen a vibrant SZD now, with a direct 'Metrolink' service up the hill from Sheffield.

We can but dream.........
 
kdhurst380
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:52 am

RE: Possible New Leeds Airport To Replace LBA?

Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:25 am

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 17):
I understand one company; ('Cityflyer' I guess); were willing to stump up development costs at SZD in return for exclusive use, but this was rejected, and never confirmed publically.

The whole thing is reported in various places to have been utterly corrupt, like the last airlines to operate being forced to stop due to the withdrawal of the fire service... there was no effort to make it work. It fell flat on its backside and it was entirely manufactured. It would have been fantastic for the local economy, if all else failed, KLM would have used it, they fly to literally every other corner of the UK and did serve SZD.

But then I suppose Peel are based in Manchester, why would they care about the local economy in Sheffield and wider South Yorkshire area. We can but dream, as you say!

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