YZFOO7F
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What's In A Codeshare?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:43 pm

I've been curious about the anatomy of codeshares recently. What are the circumstances that would warrant codesharing in general? Why do certain airlines codeshare with some and not others? Is it all about having a route network that favors the demand, or is there more to it?
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LAX772LR
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:59 pm

Quoting YZFOO7F (Thread starter):
What are the circumstances that would warrant codesharing in general?

When one airline has high penetration in to a market that other airlines cannot easily access, especially international-to-domestic.

I mean, BA is never going to serve TYS, or TUL, or GNV. But AA does.
NH is never going to serve COS, ABQ, or LBB. But UA does.

Etc etc.
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Vasu
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:44 am

Often it's the partner airline's regional feeder routes on their home turf.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:10 am

CA will never fly to AEX, UA does that for them.
UA will never fly to FNJ, CA does that for them.
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mandala499
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:03 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):
I mean, BA is never going to serve TYS, or TUL, or GNV. But AA does.
NH is never going to serve COS, ABQ, or LBB. But UA does.

What's the difference, finance-wise and/or accounting-side, between code-sharing, and interlining?
Who holds the inventory control (if any inventory is delegated)?
Is there a difference on who's liable for the passenger to chase after if anything goes wrong?
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jolau1701
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:16 am

On paper it makes sense. An airline can market for another carrier and frequent flyers can reap the benefits. Unfortunately, for example NZ has a flight from SFO to AKL as NZ7 while UA claims to have a flight UA6755. If someone doesn't know any better, one could put themselves UA6755 and not know it's NZ7. Their bags are tagged for UA6755 and a ramp agent might see that and assume it's a UAX flight that usually are UA6XXX.
 
klm672
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:57 am

Quoting jolau1701 (Reply 5):
On paper it makes sense. An airline can market for another carrier and frequent flyers can reap the benefits. Unfortunately, for example NZ has a flight from SFO to AKL as NZ7 while UA claims to have a flight UA6755. If someone doesn't know any better, one could put themselves UA6755 and not know it's NZ7. Their bags are tagged for UA6755 and a ramp agent might see that and assume it's a UAX flight that usually are UA6XXX.

As for the ramp, I would assume that they would see this all the time. I think it would print out NZ7 on the bagtag, and perhaps UA6XXX in smaller letters. I have been on several of these type of flights. The "main" airline flight number, followed by the codeshare flights. I know "back in the day" it would be announced "welcome onboard BA flight 90 to XXX also as IB flight XX, AA XX etc. Does this cause confusion to passengers? My cousin booked a flight AMS-YUL via Delta, although I had to assure him that he would be flying on a KLM plane. He asked how I knew.. I said "I just know. Delta doesn't fly AMS-YUL".
 
rutankrd
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:34 am

Not all codeshare arrangements are equal.

They aren't even necessarily tied to Alliance groupings or even just "all service carriers" either

The general concept through has existed since the dawn of regular passenger flights.

Basically its allows market penetration into places that carrier A either can't make work directly or to share risk where a partnership or franchise deal is signed.

This allows Carrier A to have route visibility in booking engines and same ticket/docket printing, and marketing at reduced costs.
At the basic level Carrier B will receive a % of the ticket price for the connecting service- Can be a derisory amount and often loss marking !


Joint Venture operations take this further and deeper as risk increases to shared profit and loss across the service profile between partners. Usually needs regulatory approval and anti-trust immunities in many domaines.
 
flyby519
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:16 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 7):
loss marking !

So, generally speaking, are codeshare agreements cost neutral at best? Would it make sense for an airline to codeshare instead of operating the flight with their own metal?
 
rutankrd
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:01 am

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 8):
So, generally speaking, are codeshare agreements cost neutral at best? Would it make sense for an airline to codeshare instead of operating the flight with their own metal?

Probably so.

They have certainly been an element in putting smaller carriers out of business imo !

For instance many of the financial problems that bmi in the UK faced can be attributed to carrying far to many partners passengers around the UK at nought in the pound/Euro/Dollar !
 
airbazar
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:23 pm

Quoting YZFOO7F (Thread starter):
Why do certain airlines codeshare with some and not others? Is it all about having a route network that favors the demand, or is there more to it?

Code-sharing is all about the bean-counting. Code-sharing is the process by which airlines decide how much money they get from a segment flown by the other airline. That is why you sometimes see little code-sharing even among alliance partners and sometimes no code-sharing at all. Code-sharing is about finances first and foremost. There has to be a financial benefit for both parties in order for a code-share to exist.
For example, EK has very low operating costs so they have little incentive to code share with an airline that has much higher operating costs because it would dilute the yields for them.
 
rutankrd
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:19 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 10):
EK has very low operating costs so they have little incentive to code share with an airline that has much higher operating costs because it would dilute the yields for them.

Emirates codeshare with Flybe across the UK via Manchester and Birmingham.

Yet Flybe probably get very little on the Pound other than a few filled seats.

Flybe codeshare extensively with Air France yet their fares over Paris to other European cities are eyewatering !
 
Dalmd88
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:20 pm

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 8):
So, generally speaking, are codeshare agreements cost neutral at best? Would it make sense for an airline to codeshare instead of operating the flight with their own metal?

Well sometimes doing it on your own metal is impossible. International to domestic for example AF codeshares all over the DL domestic system. JFK-SYR for example. They would never do CDG-SYR and don't have rights to the domestic leg. On the CDG-JFK segment it is joint venture so the costs and profits are shared and they get extra frequencies to offer.
 
heathrow
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:09 pm

Quoting jolau1701 (Reply 5):
Their bags are tagged for UA6755 and a ramp agent might see that and assume it's a UAX flight that usually are UA6XXX
Quoting klm672 (Reply 6):
I think it would print out NZ7 on the bagtag, and perhaps UA6XXX in smaller letters.

In my experience, every bag is tagged with the operating carrier's code. In this example, it would be NZ7. Passenger would have to check in with NZ, and boarding card would read "SOLD AS UA6XXX" by the flight number.
 
Gwened
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:20 pm

Codeshares are obviously a nice way for carriers to print an impressive route map in their in-flight magazine, while they only fly to large hubs  

By the way, is codesharing the only way to have your luggage, as a customer, checked in to final destination when flying segments on different carriers? Or can this be done within alliance partners as well?
 
spud757
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:42 pm

Quoting Gwened (Reply 14):

As an example, BA allow you to check bags through to flights on other OW carriers even if it's not a code share or on different tickets. I've done this BA MAN-LHR then MH LHR-KUL.

TG tagged my bag through BKK-LHR on BA from their domestic service in KBV-BKK. The flights were on different tickets and not even within the same alliance. I was surprised when the TG agent offered interline as BA do not offer in reverse, unless on same ticket.

When VS had their UK domestic Little Red I got frustrated with the check-in agent who would not check my bag through MAN-LHR-KUL-USM even though all flights were issued on the same ticket by MH. VS would check bag MAN-LHR-KUL with MH but not the final leg on PG to USM. She said it's because VS don't interline with PG who are low cost carrier. I explained PG are full service regional carrier and the flight was part of one E-ticket issued by MH. VS were having none of it
 
BostonBeau
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:06 pm

The thing about codeshares that annoys me the most, is the way some airports list all codeshare flights on their arrival/departure website, to the point where you can't easily find the actual flight you are looking for. Right now, the website for BOS arrivals lists over 20 Aer Lingus flights arriving this afternoon. Now, only a couple of these are really Aer Lingus flights, the rest are codeshares. Since I can't book most of these flights from Aer Lingus, do they really need to be listed so prominently? I realize some Irish passengers may have booked a connecting flight to BOS from Aer Lingus in connection with their trans-atlantic flight, but couldn't all these codeshares be listed separately? Alitalia and El Al are listing 11 connecting flights each, and Emirates 13. VS has 21, and even Hawaiian has 3!
 
Armodeen
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:18 pm

Quoting spud757 (Reply 15):


As an example, BA allow you to check bags through to flights on other OW carriers even if it's not a code share or on different tickets. I've done this BA MAN-LHR then MH LHR-KUL.

Also BA interline with VS and even DL. I've through checked bags on DTW - PHL - LHR (all DL) - MAN (BA) and OSL - LHR (BA) - JFK (VS).

On my most recent trip the BA agent at MAN offered to through check my bag to AUH even though the LHR - AUH leg was on EY - something I wasn't expecting.

[Edited 2016-03-13 11:19:24]
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:31 pm

Quoting BostonBeau (Reply 16):
The thing about codeshares that annoys me the most, is the way some airports list all codeshare flights on their arrival/departure website, to the point where you can't easily find the actual flight you are looking for.

Legal requirement for full disclosure of codeshare flight information is the reason for this. This is also the reason why it is printed on boarding cards.
 
Freshside3
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:39 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 7):
Not all codeshare arrangements are equal.
They aren't even necessarily tied to Alliance groupings or even just "all service carriers" either

Even within the same alliance, carriers are treated different. Although both ET and A3 are Star Alliance partners, UA has minimal, at best, code-share involvement with either.
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:39 pm

bmi used to codeshare extensively with Star Alliance carriers on its U.K. domestic routes and it was often claimed it received a tiny amount of revenue, and only when the passenger had flown.

Outside of IAG and revenue sharing joint ventures, BA only seems to put its code on other airlines' flights to feed its own long-haul network.

So before Iberia joined IAG, BA put its code on just one Iberia long-haul flight from Madrid (Lima) as it was financially more lucrative for passengers travelling to Latin American destinations not served by BA to fly on a BA aircraft to Miami and connect there.

Similarly, before Aer Lingus joined IAG, a BA codeshare could only be booked on an Aer Lingus flight to London Heathrow when connecting to/from a BA long-haul flight.

It is also noteworthy that in spite of talk of co-operation between BA and QR the number of QR flights from Doha which have a BA code is very limited to destinations that BA does not serve (Pakistan etc).
 
OB1504
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:28 pm

Quoting spud757 (Reply 15):
When VS had their UK domestic Little Red I got frustrated with the check-in agent who would not check my bag through MAN-LHR-KUL-USM even though all flights were issued on the same ticket by MH. VS would check bag MAN-LHR-KUL with MH but not the final leg on PG to USM. She said it's because VS don't interline with PG who are low cost carrier. I explained PG are full service regional carrier and the flight was part of one E-ticket issued by MH. VS were having none of it

No interline agreement trumps travel being on the same ticket. Most likely it was impossible for the agent to issue an automated bag tag for the PG flight.

I've seen that happen in Miami with passengers flying an IB*/AA codeshare connecting to RO. IB interlines with RO, but AA does not, so passengers have to claim and recheck their baggage at MAD.
 
Freshside3
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:43 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 21):
I've seen that happen in Miami with passengers flying an IB*/AA codeshare connecting to RO. IB interlines with RO, but AA does not, so passengers have to claim and recheck their baggage at MAD.

I don't think you can do AA-DL, AA-AC or AS-LH, either, IIRC.
 
bnatraveler
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:06 am

From SABRE:

W/*VS‡*PG«
VS-932 VIRGIN ATLANTIC/VIRGIN ATLANTIC

CANNOT ISSUE TKT-NO AGREEMENT ON FILE
PG-829 BANGKOK AIRWAYS/BANGKOK AIRWAYS PCL

CANNOT CHECK BAGGAGE NO AGREEMENT ON FILE
PG

W/*AA‡*DL«
AA-001 AMERICAN AIRLINES/AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC.

CANNOT ISSUE TKT-NO AGREEMENT ON FILE
DL-006 DELTA AIR LINES INC/DELTA AIR LINES INC.

CANNOT CHECK BAGGAGE NO AGREEMENT ON FILE
DL

W/*AA‡*AC«
AA-001 AMERICAN AIRLINES/AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC.

MAY ISSUE TICKETS INCLUDING
AC-014 AIR CANADA/AIR CANADA

MAY CHECK BAGGAGE TO
AC

W/*AS‡*LH«
AS-027 ALASKA AIRLINES/ALASKA AIRLINES INC.

MAY ISSUE TICKETS INCLUDING
LH-220 LUFTHANSA/DEUTSCHE LUFTHANSA AG

MAY CHECK BAGGAGE TO
LH

[Edited 2016-03-13 18:07:37]
 
airbazar
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:06 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 11):

Emirates codeshare with Flybe across the UK via Manchester and Birmingham.

My point exactly. Flybe is a LCC. It's costs are probably comparable with EK's.

Quoting Gwened (Reply 14):

By the way, is codesharing the only way to have your luggage, as a customer, checked in to final destination when flying segments on different carriers? Or can this be done within alliance partners as well?

Codesharing has noting to do with your ability to check luggage all the way thru. Interlining is what allows for that and most airlines have expansive interline agreements.
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:18 pm

Quoting BostonBeau (Reply 16):
The thing about codeshares that annoys me the most, is the way some airports list all codeshare flights on their arrival/departure website, to the point where you can't easily find the actual flight you are looking for.

On a similar note, a few years ago I was working with someone who had a project that involved getting flight schedule data at a certain airport. She remarked at how all the airlines flew to Toledo at exactly the same time!
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Viscount724
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RE: What's In A Codeshare?

Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:08 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 24):
Codesharing has noting to do with your ability to check luggage all the way thru. Interlining is what allows for that and most airlines have expansive interline agreements.

Yes, and the usual type of codesharing outside a joint venture, and not counting major carrier codeshares with regional carriers under capacity purchase agreements, is really no different than a standard interline connection except for the connecting flight operating under more than one airline code and flight number. It just gives greater visibility to the interline connection and higher display priority in reservations systems.

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