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SpaceshipDC10
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Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:02 am

AC has decided to serve the route daily starting with winter 2016/17 schedule.


http://airlineroute.net/2016/03/16/ac-del-w16/
 
chrisp390
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:27 am

Excellent news, the route must be doing well. Any chance that rumored Dhaka tag on will be happening?
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:46 pm

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 1):

I think that was just made up by a bangladashi Journalist.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:01 pm

This is excellent news!
IMHO in order to make this flight more appealing to those other than the DEL terminating pax, AC should adjust the timing of this flight. Unfortunately the current 21:15 arrival is after the last bank of AI domestic flights around 20:00 that depart to HYD, BLR, MAA, AMD, ATQ, COK, CCU, LKU, VTZ etc.

With the ME3 having limited frequencies ex-YYZ (3x weekly), and TK not serving secondary Indian cities, there is an opportunity here.
 
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Ytraveller
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:16 pm

Congrats to AC! Would this have been possible if EK were sending daily A380s to YYZ?
 
a380787
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:51 pm

That's an amazing ramp up, considering it was just announced in Dec'14 and commenced in Nov'15.

If things continue trending this way, I would expect AC to announce YYZ-BOM around Fall 2016 for commencement around early summer 2017. 7775mi is a piece of cake for the 787-9.
 
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yowza
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:44 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 2):
I think that was just made up by a bangladashi Journalist.

Agreed.

Quoting ytraveller (Reply 4):
Congrats to AC! Would this have been possible if EK were sending daily A380s to YYZ?

That is quite the ramp up.

I wonder what broad pricing looks like YYZ-DEL vs YYZ-Europe-DEL vs YYZ-DXB/AUH-DEL. I strongly suspect that people are willing to pay a direct flight premium. This despite the notion that all India traffic is near zero yield.

YOWza
 
ElPistolero
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:33 pm

This was announced before the flight began operating. I suspect AC was just waiting on 787 deliveries.

"MONTREAL, July 17, 2015 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada today said that it plans to increase its new Toronto-Delhi non-stop service from four times weekly to daily service beginning October 30, 2016. Air Canada's new non-stop service between Toronto and Delhi, set to be launched November 1, 2015 with four weekly flights, is the airline's first route to be dedicated for Boeing 787-9 series aircraft. "

http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/?s=43&item=903
 
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golfradio
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:55 pm

Great news.

Quoting airbusfanyyz (Reply 3):
MHO in order to make this flight more appealing to those other than the DEL terminating pax, AC should adjust the timing of this flight. Unfortunately the current 21:15 arrival is after the last bank of AI domestic flights around 20:00 that depart to HYD, BLR, MAA, AMD, ATQ, COK, CCU, LKU, VTZ etc.

I agree. But I am sure AC has no trouble filling the 789 with DEL and the NCR terminating passengers. I guess the time is because of availability of aircraft? When the route goes daily, it will need two aircraft dedicated to the route. May be then we'll see a change in timings?

Good to see AC at least trying to kick ME3's collective butts.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:47 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 7):
I suspect AC was just waiting on 787 deliveries.

And perhaps also testing the water.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:56 am

This is as much about the lack of confidence with Air India and while JET is not in the same boat it is a connection flight adding extra time. JET does still have the advantage of the scissor arrangement in Amsterdam though until AC starts another direct flight.

The direct flight and ability of the 789 to carry decent cargo is part of the success. AC has been trying to make this flight work for many many years and finally the optimum aircraft coupled with the improved trade, growing middle class in India are starting to make a success of the flight. The ME3 can still undercut the fares if they chose to with their strong cost advantages.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:17 am

Quoting golfradio (Reply 8):
Good to see AC at least trying to kick ME3's collective butts.

Its not like the ME3 can do much to retaliate though on that market. Not exactly a fair fight  
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:01 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
f things continue trending this way, I would expect AC to announce YYZ-BOM around Fall 2016 for commencement around early summer 2017.

Canada-India traffic largely caters to the VFR market that's primarily from northern India. When AC operated to BOM for several years in the 1980s as part of a YYZ-LHR-BOM-SIN route, most of the traffic beyond LHR was 5th freedom, not to/from Canada.

I don't think AI ever operated Canada-BOM, and Jet Airways' current one-stop service via AMS (recently moved from BRU to AMS) is also to DEL.
 
RTW00
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:24 am

I am sure AC is making money, particularly up front. The 787 makes the difference. I believe that they used 777 last time which did not work out (please correct)

They used to fly 747 YYZ-LHR-BOM in late 80's which I believe they dropped in Dec 1990. Will be great if they start YYZ-BOM again,
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:44 am

Quoting RTW00 (Reply 13):
I am sure AC is making money, particularly up front. The 787 makes the difference. I believe that they used 777 last time which did not work out (please correct)

AC has never operated the 777 to India. The types I recall AC using on their multiple attempts to serve India prior to the current nonstop 787s are (roughly in order):

L-1011-500
747-200
747-400
A340-300
767-300ER
 
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golfradio
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:03 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
Jet Airways' current one-stop service via AMS (recently moved from BRU to AMS) is also to DEL.

With 9W BOM was and remains a 1 stop. Earlier via BRU, you would connect to the EWR-BOM flight. Now at AMS you would connect to the AMS-BOM flight.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:46 am

Quoting golfradio (Reply 15):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
Jet Airways' current one-stop service via AMS (recently moved from BRU to AMS) is also to DEL.

With 9W BOM was and remains a 1 stop. Earlier via BRU, you would connect to the EWR-BOM flight. Now at AMS you would connect to the AMS-BOM flight.

But the direct one-stop flight from YYZ with no aircraft change serves DEL which would indicate it's a higher-priority from YYZ than BOM.
 
mattnrsa
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:50 am

Is this route part of the JV with UA/LH?
 
YYZflyboy
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:11 am

Will this flight connect nicely with ORD, SFO, LAX, SEA, IAD, DFW and IAH flights offered by AC/UA? If so, it's going to be consistently full flights.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:27 am

Quoting RTW00 (Reply 13):
I believe that they used 777 last time which did not work out (please correct)

The only other aircraft to operate the route nonstop were the A345 and A343.

The 763ER also did LHR-DEL after that, but with a stop in Europe.

Then there were the aforementioned milk-run ops from the '80s and beyond.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:55 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
Canada-India traffic largely caters to the VFR market that's primarily from northern India. When AC operated to BOM for several years in the 1980s as part of a YYZ-LHR-BOM-SIN route, most of the traffic beyond LHR was 5th freedom, not to/from Canada.

I don't think AI ever operated Canada-BOM, and Jet Airways' current one-stop service via AMS (recently moved from BRU to AMS) is also to DEL.

While it's true that the Canada-India VFR traffic is skewed to the north.
That has been steadily changing with places like BLR & HYD and their sizable IT sectors and even MAA. It would behoove AC not to try and capture some of that by coordinating timings for better onward cnx on AI.
 
factsonly
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:20 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 6):
I wonder what broad pricing looks like YYZ-DEL vs YYZ-Europe-DEL vs YYZ-DXB/AUH-DEL. I strongly suspect that people are willing to pay a direct flight premium. This despite the notion that all India traffic is near zero yield.

From 27 March 2016, AC will see new yield pressure from 9W on:

DEL-AMS-YYZ
DEL-AMS-YUL
DEL-AMS-YYC
DEL-AMS-YEG
DEL-AMS-YVR
BOM-AMS-YUL
BOM-AMS-YYZ
BOM-AMS-YYC
BOM-AMS-YEG
BOM-AMS-YVR

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 10):
This is as much about the lack of confidence with Air India and while JET is not in the same boat it is a connection flight adding extra time. JET does still have the advantage of the scissor arrangement in Amsterdam though until AC starts another direct flight.

9W is indeed at a disadvantage on DEL-YYZ versus AC non-stop, but 9W competes well with the new codeshare routes on DEL-YUL, DEL-YYC, DEL-YEG, DEL-YVR and beats AC on all services from BOM.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
I don't think AI ever operated Canada-BOM, and Jet Airways' current one-stop service via AMS (recently moved from BRU to AMS) is also to DEL.

9W will operate BOM-AMS daily to feed its own 9W AMS-YYZ flight and the KL flights to YUL, YYC, YEG and YVR.

Even with the restricted Canada-UAE bilateral, there may be sufficient competition in the Canada-India market considering the options via Canadian, Indian, European and UAE carriers.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:22 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):

Quoting RTW00 (Reply 13):
I am sure AC is making money, particularly up front. The 787 makes the difference. I believe that they used 777 last time which did not work out (please correct)

AC has never operated the 777 to India. The types I recall AC using on their multiple attempts to serve India prior to the current nonstop 787s are (roughly in order):

L-1011-500
747-200
747-400
A340-300
767-300ER

The route started in 2003 with a nonstop YYZ-DEL that utilized a 343. It was then converted to a 767 operating YYZ-ZRH-DEL in the mid-2000s, which ran until 2007.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:24 pm

There are considerable one stop connecting options from a variety of Canadian Airports to European Airports so there is NO lack of possibilities to get to BOM or DEL. So AC is not really at a disadvantage with Canadians from other cities to YYZ then flying direct to BOM as it also is just one connection just being it is in Canada. Given frequency from YVR, YEG and YYC the connection times must be pretty good.

An Indian Banker I know, claimed he was going to continue to fly BA via LHR, his choice route, for what sounds like snobbish reasons. He flies frequently from Toronto to BOM and DEL. I had asked him if he would try AC nd he wasn't sure. The Bank won't pay for Emirates or Etihad First Class. He gets upgraded frequently on BA and says he gets enough "good pricing" to warrant First in BA. I am not sure if that means he pays the difference or if he gets a sale price on First. I have never checked but I am not sure if there is much difference in First Class via BA YYZ to LHR to BOM vs. one of the ME3 and connecting in the middle east. He won't step on AI and for some reason Jet isn't attractive.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:27 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 19):
The 763ER also did LHR-DEL after that, but with a stop in Europe.

The 763 was never used LHR-DEL. The 763 route was YYZ-ZRH-DEL.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:27 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
The 763 was never used LHR-DEL. The 763 route was YYZ-ZRH-DEL.

It was in the late 1990's when AC had rights to operate LHR-DEL.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:04 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 25):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
The 763 was never used LHR-DEL. The 763 route was YYZ-ZRH-DEL.

It was in the late 1990's when AC had rights to operate LHR-DEL.

How long did that last? Must not have been very long.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:16 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):
How long did that last? Must not have been very long.

I noticed it in the 1997 timetable. It was once or twice a week as an extension of the YOW-YUL-LHR flight. The rest of the week were B747s. It no longer showed in the 1999 timetable.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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golfradio
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:30 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
But the direct one-stop flight from YYZ with no aircraft change serves DEL which would indicate it's a higher-priority from YYZ than BOM.

I don't mean to argue but at least in BRU it was not exactly a same aircraft flight. All passengers had to deplane, clear security again and there was a gate change. I believe it would be the same at AMS. I have always flown 9W to both BOM and DEL and while I have been upgraded a couple of times to DEL, never to BOM. J was always full to BOM.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:22 am

Quoting golfradio (Reply 28):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
But the direct one-stop flight from YYZ with no aircraft change serves DEL which would indicate it's a higher-priority from YYZ than BOM.

I don't mean to argue but at least in BRU it was not exactly a same aircraft flight. All passengers had to deplane, clear security again and there was a gate change. I believe it would be the same at AMS.

Since YYZ-DEL is the one with the same flight number all the way, would seem logical to use the same aircraft. Also less baggage and cargo to unload and transfer since a significant percentage of YYZ-AMS passengers would be continuing to DEL.

Looking at the schedule, all 3 flights from YYZ/DEL/BOM (they're dropping EWR which they now serve as part of the BRU hub operation) arrive and depart AMS at about the same times, so they could use any of the 3 arriving aircraft to any of the outbound destinations. Just seems to make more sense to use the same aircraft on the one with the through flight number.
 
upwardfacing
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:59 am

Quoting airbusfanyyz (Reply 3):
IMHO in order to make this flight more appealing to those other than the DEL terminating pax, AC should adjust the timing of this flight. Unfortunately the current 21:15 arrival is after the last bank of AI domestic flights around 20:00 that depart to HYD, BLR, MAA, AMD, ATQ, COK, CCU, LKU, VTZ etc.

The timings follow the well-established UA playbook out of EWR and are pretty much what one would expect:

Design the schedule to suit p2p business travellers first and foremost, then offer maximum connectivity to and from destinations in AC's home market, which is Canada of course. Plus, there is the large US market next door.

Standard procedure.

Other major metros are covered by Air Canada's JV partner Lufthansa through FRA.
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:17 pm

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 30):
The timings follow the well-established UA playbook out of EWR and are pretty much what one would expect:

Design the schedule to suit p2p business travellers first and foremost, then offer maximum connectivity to and from destinations in AC's home market, which is Canada of course. Plus, there is the large US market next door.

Standard procedure.

Other major metros are covered by Air Canada's JV partner Lufthansa through FRA.

While I agree this is standard practice, I am just making a suggestion that an adjustment of the outbound flight timings would be beneficial at both end for additional connectivity to places like HYD, AMD, ATQ, CCU, COK where even the LH + group don't serve.

AC50 YYZ 22:55 - DEL 21:15+1
AC51 DEL 00:45 - YYZ 05:00

Outbound could be adjusted to AC70 YYZ say 20:00 - 18:05+1.
Sure the aircraft would spend more time on the ramp in DEL but worth it IMHO.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:29 pm

Quoting airbusfanyyz (Reply 31):
While I agree this is standard practice, I am just making a suggestion that an adjustment of the outbound flight timings would be beneficial at both end for additional connectivity to places like HYD, AMD, ATQ, CCU, COK where even the LH + group don't serve.

I think it is acknowledged that the North America to India flights are very low yield with tight margins. If that is the case, then diluting the yield by interlining would only tighten the margin.

That is one advantage the ME3 will always have with regard to India and South Asia. From their hubs they can sell any of a few dozen Indian destinations for no additional cost than DEL. (But still at a higher cost than nonstop YYZ-DEL).

It would appear that with high 80s load factors in all classes, selling Canada-DEL without having to sell downline connections in India is sufficient. Perhaps when a second YYZ-DEL daily nonstop is started, it will be better geared to Indian connections.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
fraT
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:37 pm

Quoting mattnrsa (Reply 17):
Is this route part of the JV with UA/LH?

Yes, it is part of it.
 
Freshside3
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:08 pm

Quoting mattnrsa (Reply 17):
Is this route part of the JV with UA/LH?
Quoting fraT (Reply 33):
Yes, it is part of it.

Do we have a list of what is---and what isn't---a JV with UA/LH? I know that the TG/LAX trip was not, and neither are the ET trips......so basically anything overwater involving LH/AC/NH/NZ??

[Edited 2016-03-18 14:14:00]
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:19 am

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 34):
Do we have a list of what is---and what isn't---a JV with UA/LH? I know that the TG/LAX trip was not, and neither are the ET trips......so basically anything overwater involving LH/AC/NH/NZ??

NH is not involved in the transatlantic joint venture.That covers AC, UA and the LH group (LH/LX/OS/SN) only.
 
fraT
Posts: 1174
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RE: Air Canada's YYZ-DEL To Become Daily

Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:31 am

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 34):
Do we have a list of what is---and what isn't---a JV with UA/LH? I know that the TG/LAX trip was not, and neither are the ET trips......so basically anything overwater involving LH/AC/NH/NZ??

India is basically the most Eastern country to be included in the JV. Everything west of that plus all Africa. On the other side of the pond it's Canada to Panama excluding the Caribbean.

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