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ordell
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All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:34 pm

Where women can't even drive. Irony: they are from Brunei, which is not exactly a progressive nation to begin with.

http://www.newsweek.com/brunei-airli...ale-crew-flies-saudi-arabia-437313

Royal Brunei Airlines’ first ever all-female aircraft crew must have felt as if they were flying back in time during their maiden voyage.

The women flew from Brunei to Jeddah, the second city of Saudi Arabia, the only country in the world where women are prohibited from driving.

The flight took place on February 23 to mark Brunei’s National Day, which celebrates the tiny southeast Asian country’s independence from the U.K. in 1984. It was operated by Captain Sharifah Czarena and Senior First Officers Dk Nadiah Pg Khashiem and Sariana Nordin.

Brunei crew
 
kaitak
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:37 pm

I can't help thinking that the Saudis must have been pretty embarrassed about this! I wonder if a private protest was made. The publicity this got, across many media outlets around the world, cannot have gone unnoticed.

Good for RBA though!
 
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zeke
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:39 pm

CX has had all female crews in there as well.
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migair54
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:43 pm

I am sure Royal Brunei had a friendly letter from the Saudi Arabia government about this, and it will never happen again.

By the way, is there any female pilot in SV or any other airline in SA??

Quoting ordell (Thread starter):
Where women can't even drive. Irony: they are from Brunei, which is not exactly a progressive nation to begin with.

Unless you compare with the destination of the flight, then Brunei is the most liberal country in the world.  
 
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:44 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Good for RBA though!

I wonder if the Saudis see being selected for this 'honor' to be an act of contempt toward their policies. Riyadh cannot decline because it would make news: "Oppressive country refuses to allow all-women flight to land". And if they permit it, then the headline is, "Crew of historic all-women flight cannot legally drive in destination country".
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:47 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
I can't help thinking that the Saudis must have been pretty embarrassed about this! I wonder if a private protest was made. The publicity this got, across many media outlets around the world, cannot have gone unnoticed.

Female crews flying into JED isn't that out of ordinary.
Royal Brunei media department trying too hard to make a "historic event" out of a non-story.
 
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:50 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 4):
I wonder if the Saudis see being selected for this 'honor' to be an act of contempt toward their policies. Riyadh cannot decline because it would make news: "Oppressive country refuses to allow all-women flight to land". And if they permit it, then the headline is, "Crew of historic all-women flight cannot legally drive in destination country".

Oh, I don't think they would miss that; all-female crew from a Muslim country (hijabs and all), on International Women's Day ... bet the very fact that it was International Women's Day didn't get much publicity in Saudi, let alone the RBA flight.
 
sw733
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:57 pm

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 5):
Royal Brunei media department trying too hard to make a "historic event" out of a non-story.

Is that not the point of any media/marketing department? Seems like they did a really good job at it.
 
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:58 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
I can't help thinking that the Saudis must have been pretty embarrassed about this! I wonder if a private protest was made. The publicity this got, across many media outlets around the world, cannot have gone unnoticed.

Good for RBA though!

Relax it's cool! Flying an aeroplane certainly isn't as dangerous or complicated as operating a car so there shouldn't be an issue for them to let women fly it.
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:03 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 4):
I wonder if the Saudis see being selected for this 'honor' to be an act of contempt toward their policies. Riyadh cannot decline because it would make news: "Oppressive country refuses to allow all-women flight to land". And if they permit it, then the headline is, "Crew of historic all-women flight cannot legally drive in destination country".

It's a bit rich coming from Brunei though, as much as this represents some progress some of their laws are still very harsh on women.

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 5):
Royal Brunei media department trying too hard to make a "historic event" out of a non-story.

It's a big event for a government-owned company of a fairly strict and oppressive nation to do this, to be fair.
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:04 pm

G'day

From the looks of those ceiling panels on this 787 about to fall off it appears they had a rough landing. Or maybe this is one of those terrible teens with Homedepot hardware where bit and pieces do not quite fit?
        


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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:06 pm

It sounds like thunder but the way this year is going, it could be Godzilla!
 
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ordell
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:07 pm

You know that's the first time I've seen the cockpit of a 787 and I'm amazed at how spare the overhead panel is compared to others. The whole cockpit looks more like the interior of a Tesla than an airplane.
 
HiJazzey
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:09 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 7):
Is that not the point of any media/marketing department? Seems like they did a really good job at it.

That's true and fair play to them. But it is sad how people bought it.
 
9w748capt
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:17 pm

Ironic on so many levels. Didn't Brunei recently also adopt sharia law? Did the crew have male relatives onboard with them? Isn't it illegal for Saudi women to do anything without the express permission of their closest male relative? Were they allowed through immigration by themselves?
 
SCQ83
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:35 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
I can't help thinking that the Saudis must have been pretty embarrassed about this! I wonder if a private protest was made. The publicity this got, across many media outlets around the world, cannot have gone unnoticed.

Undoubtedly this has been made in agreement with the Saudi authorities.

I don't even think Royal Brunei flying to JED is by chance. Brunei is a non-controversial (for Saudi mindset), conservative (Sharia law applies there) country (it is not like Emirates based in "vicious" Dubai). JED is the gateway to Makkah, Islam's holiest site.

It is probably another stint to convince Saudis about women driving. Saudi Arabia is not only its government, but it is also its people which (as dumb as I might look for a non-Saudi perspective) is not used to women driving. Changing people's minds takes time... I mean 50 years ago in the US or Europe women couldn't do many things alone, and 20 years ago gay people couldn't marry in any country in the world... as weird as those things seem from a Western perspective in 2016. It took a lot of education and "get used to it" that people in Western societies see those things normal.
 
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:48 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 10):
From the looks of those ceiling panels on this 787 about to fall off it appears they had a rough landing. Or maybe this is one of those terrible teens with Homedepot hardware where bit and pieces do not quite fit?

Charleston assembled bird perhaps ?

  
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:54 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 15):

People are still getting used to same gender marriage. Don't let their PC denials of this fool you. There are many parts of even NYC where same gender couples dare not publicly embrace.
 
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:11 pm

On a related subject, all-female LX A333 flight GVA-JFK on March 8 to commemorate International Women's Day.

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12814247_10153310799665723_5693126111059221722_n.jpg?oh=11e18943dc832a1625c2f38f537b28b3&oe=578D2DD2
 
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:54 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 16):
Charleston assembled bird perhaps ?

Per the All Things 787 blog and its tables, RBA has 4 787s so far and all of them were assembled in Everett. I don't understand the propensity to cast aspersions on the quality of work done in Charleston. As a resident of the State of South Carolina, I am extremely proud that Boeing chose to locate their only non-Washington State, commercial airplane, final assembly plant in Charleston. I am equally proud of the quality and quantity of the work done there. Do some research before you make such asinine comments.
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:58 pm

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 13):
That's true and fair play to them. But it is sad how people bought it.

It's kinda sad. In a way that this stunt would be HILARIOUS if not for the fact that it highlighted issues that are sad.
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:02 pm

Interesting.. Sad this is an event...

Quoting N867DA (Reply 4):
Crew of historic all-women flight cannot legally drive in destination country"

Lol. Yea... No win for Saudi.

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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:13 pm

Quoting ordell (Thread starter):
The women flew from Brunei to Jeddah, the second city of Saudi Arabia, the only country in the world where women are prohibited from driving.
Quoting sw733 (Reply 7):
Is that not the point of any media/marketing department? Seems like they did a really good job at it.

It makes my day. Women are just as capable as men flying aircraft and also driving cars.
Maybe it is time Saudi Arabia graduates to the 21st century.   
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:16 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 14):
Ironic on so many levels. Didn't Brunei recently also adopt sharia law? Did the crew have male relatives onboard with them? Isn't it illegal for Saudi women to do anything without the express permission of their closest male relative? Were they allowed through immigration by themselves?

Yeah, this whole thing is a PR stunt, almost shameless in its transparency.

I'm happy for the ladies, but they're also being used as props in this.
 
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:23 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 14):
Did the crew have male relatives onboard with them?

Are you being purposefully making dumb comments or do you actually believe in what you are saying?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
Interesting.. Sad this is an event...

Why a sad event? It should be a happy event. An all-female crew flying the 787. We really don't see that happening with any carrier. Has BA, UA or even AA ever had an all-female crew flying the B787?
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:29 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
I can't help thinking that the Saudis must have been pretty embarrassed about this!

I think that if they were embarrassed then the law would have changed by now...Unfortunately its a pretty backward place.

Hoping more events like this bring about change. I was very happy to read this a couple days ago.

tortugamon
 
9w748capt
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:44 pm

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 24):

Are you being purposefully making dumb comments or do you actually believe in what you are saying?

Dumb comments? Perhaps you should educate yourself on the reality of life for Saudi women. Here's a good place to start: http://www.theweek.co.uk/60339/eleve...ings-women-in-saudi-arabia-cant-do
 
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ordell
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:49 am

I have a question: why is there a third pilot? I'd expect a second pair of pilots as relief crew, not just one.
 
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:11 am

Quoting ordell (Reply 27):
have a question: why is there a third pilot? I'd expect a second pair of pilots as relief crew, not just one.

They carry two Captains and one First Officer on long flights so as one pilot at a time may have the required rest period. There has to be two Captains as there always must be a Captain in the left seat. Two Captains can occupy both seats but the First Officer can only occupy the right seat except in an emergency when the Captain is incapacitated when flying an aircraft that only has a two man flight crew.   
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Viscount724
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:31 am

Quoting ordell (Reply 27):
I have a question: why is there a third pilot? I'd expect a second pair of pilots as relief crew, not just one.

I believe most airlines only use one relief pilot on flights less than around 12 hours and a complete double crew on longer flights. BWN-JED is about 10.5 hrs westbound and 9.5 hrs eastbound.
 
mcoatc
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:43 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 28):
There has to be two Captains as there always must be a Captain in the left seat. Two Captains can occupy both seats but the First Officer can only occupy the right seat except in an emergency when the Captain is incapacitated when flying an aircraft that only has a two man flight crew.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's completely incorrect - if for no other reason than if you had simply read the OP, you'd see that there is only one captain and two FOs in the picture.

I am not aware of any such "captain in the left seat" rule, but someone can correct me.

Quoting ordell (Reply 27):
I have a question: why is there a third pilot? I'd expect a second pair of pilots as relief crew, not just one.

It's all about the flight block time. The more hours, the more crew members required. I believe, and don't hold me this, usually flights 8-12 hours require a 3rd pilot, and over 12hrs requires a 4th.....but I may be off.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:13 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 28):
They carry two Captains and one First Officer on long flights so as one pilot at a time may have the required rest period. There has to be two Captains as there always must be a Captain in the left seat. Two Captains can occupy both seats but the First Officer can only occupy the right seat except in an emergency when the Captain is incapacitated when flying an aircraft that only has a two man flight crew.

Which would be great information if it wasn't completely wrong  

I'm sure that someone will be able to correct me, but I can't think of a single airline that requires a captain to be sitting at the controls at all times and will regularly schedule two captains to a flight.
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:33 am

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 30):

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 28):
There has to be two Captains as there always must be a Captain in the left seat. Two Captains can occupy both seats but the First Officer can only occupy the right seat except in an emergency when the Captain is incapacitated when flying an aircraft that only has a two man flight crew.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's completely incorrect - if for no other reason than if you had simply read the OP, you'd see that there is only one captain and two FOs in the picture.

I am not aware of any such "captain in the left seat" rule, but someone can correct me.

I found this under an old Airliners.net posting, "How Many Crews On Ultra Long Flights" which help substantiate my statements, which are shown below and in my original posting that you quoted.

"Up to 8 hours long flight time, 2 pilots are sufficient. Captain + first officer.
From 8 to 12 hours, 3 pilots, of which 2 captains + 1 first officer.
In excess of 12 hours, 4 pilots, of which 2 captains + 2 first officers.
xxx
In the case of the 3 pilot crew, 2 captains are required, because there must be at least a qualified captain on duty in the flight deck, no matter who takes a rest period. Oftentimes, the second captain, is a senior first officer who does hold captain licence and qualifications. Various airlines have different names or rank titles for them. The above are the US FAA flight time limits, some other countries may have slightly different limits."

I know for a fact that when I worked for Northwest Airlines that the above was the rule. Also at the time the tiller for controlling the nose wheel on the ground was to the left of the Captain's seat. There was no tiller on the first officer's side. Now with more modern and electronic aircraft the nose wheel may be possibly controlled from either seat in the cockpit. I also read that Delta may have had looser rules and it is possible that some non USA airlines may also have rules that do not require Two Captains in a flight crew that requires thee or more pilots. In my 37 years with Northwest Airlines it was a no nonsense airline that emphasized safety even though after about 1989 when Alfred Chechi and his robber barons did their best to bleed the airline into bankruptcy this was continued in part due to the pilot's contract.   
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jacobin777
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:37 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 26):
Dumb comments? Perhaps you should educate yourself on the reality of life for Saudi women

...and these aren't Saudi women.
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SkyWest700
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:38 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 31):

He's old Northwest, they had that rule. In fact DL still has that rule on double augmented flights.

At United we operated 1CA 2FOs on flights under 12hrs. 1CA 3FOS on flights from 12-16 and 2CAs 2FOs on flights over 16 and that's contractual.
 
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tjcab
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:18 am

is this an aviation forum or what? can we just celebrate this event without generating conspiracy theories?
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:26 am

Quoting ordell (Thread starter):
Irony: they are from Brunei, which is not exactly a progressive nation to begin with.

Why are they not progressive, because they adapted a form of Sharia law? Given that they have female pilots & can field an all female crew I would say they are progressive enough.

As for the flight - I don't think they went out of their way to embarass Saudi Arabia by arranging an all female crew to fly there. What beef do the Bruneians have with the Arabs?
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rajrs
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:14 am

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 24):
Why a sad event? It should be a happy event. An all-female crew flying the 787. We really don't see that happening with any carrier. Has BA, UA or even AA ever had an all-female crew flying the B787?

Air India operated All-Women Crew Flight on Women’s Day. DEL-SFO.

http://www.india.com/lifestyle/air-i...crew-flight-on-womens-day-1017407/

As per article it is world record for longest flight operated by all women crew.
 
AVFCdownunder
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:20 am

I was in Brunei before Christmas and found it quite progressive, whilst upholding many traditional values. It would seem it is possible to balance both (maybe not that easily though). An all-female crew piloting a 787 whilst wearing a hijab is probably indicative of this outlook.
 
Unflug
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:28 am

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 24):
Why a sad event? It should be a happy event. An all-female crew flying the 787

He didn't say it was a sad event. He said the fact that this is an event at all is sad. It shouldn't be an event, it should be normal.
 
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CARST
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:30 am

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 24):
We really don't see that happening with any carrier. Has BA, UA or even AA ever had an all-female crew flying the B787?

Not really 787, but AFAIK thew LH Group operated ALL flights into New York on Womens' Day with all-female cockpit-crews. Google should find the press release...

Except Austrian, they had to used mixed crews; but at least they had women on all flightdecks. And they said they in the progress of bringing more female-pilots to the widebody-fleet.
 
bennett123
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:58 am

It is not that long ago that a female captain was a big deal as well.
 
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hilram
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:42 am

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 34):
...and these aren't Saudi women.

Of course not. Saudi women are not allowed to even work as FA´s for Saudia! All female crew on Saudi airlines comes from other countries in the ME, or from Sout-East Asia. Saudi Arabia is the one country in the world that can make Iran seem "progressive".
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:17 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 22):
Maybe it is time Saudi Arabia graduates to the 21st century.

Baby steps - let's get them into the 19th Century first!

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 24):
Why a sad event? It should be a happy event.

He meant it's sad that an all-female crew flying to Saudi Arabia is "an event", whereas it should be anything but (i.e. normal).
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Skyeurope
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:52 am

Quoting hilram (Reply 43):
Saudi Arabia is the one country in the world that can make Iran seem "progressive".

Ever been to Iran?
 
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tjcab
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:03 pm

Quoting Unflug (Reply 39):
He didn't say it was a sad event. He said the fact that this is an event at all is sad. It shouldn't be an event, it should be normal.

But reality is that it isn't. So yes, it's an event.
 
nikeherc
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:04 pm

Air South which had a brief run in the 1990s had a number of female pilots. I was on a flight from CAE to PIE with an all female flight crew during that time.
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shankly
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:35 pm

The day when this does not make the news is the day we should all be aiming for

In the meantime, well done to all involved for working to breakdown gender barriers
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offloaded
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RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:38 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 15):


  

The current king of SA (Salman) even though he's in his 80s is actually quite progressive.

Saudi kings aren't necessarily the first son, but are actually elected by the other royals as the best man for the job. Bare in mind that Saudi Arabia wouldn't exist as a nation had it not been for the support of the ultra religious Wahabis, so change does come very slowly in Saudi.

And, contrary to what is being suggested in this thread, all female flight crews are still quite rare, even in the forward thinking and progressive west. BA has 3,500 pilots, of which 200 are women. Globally 4,000 of around 130,000.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
winginit
Posts: 3071
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

RE: All-female Air Crew Flies Into Saudi Arabia

Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:54 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 7):
Is that not the point of any media/marketing department? Seems like they did a really good job at it.

Agreed. Whether this was too much or otherwise in the opinions of some, this story has received a tremendous amount of attention even (and especially) among my non-aviation informed friends on social media. Like it or not it's been a success.

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