Flight now shows "Delayed 20 Hours"
ETD 1900

OMG, these poor people flew 5:18 just to return Dulles. I would be so pissed. Will they get compensation for this?

Flight is now airborne .. Just a tad late...      

Jeepers.

I had three flights canceled in the past two weeks for mechanical issues (a 738, a 752, and a 753 - so no pattern). Slept Tuesday night in LAX Terminal 7 with a lot of other nice people who were rebooked from 10:55pm Tues to 6am Wed

What's this about G4 having an excessive number of mechanical issues?

This makes no sense. I understand you may not be able to dispatch on an ETOPS flight with a deferred stby attitude indicator - but to divert for one?

A standby?

How many other examples are there of ETOPS flights continuing to their destination with far greater issues?

Many.

Can anyone help clarify why they felt the need/requirement to divert?

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 9): What's this about G4 having an excessive number of mechanical issues?

G4 has substantially less flight, and substantially older aircraft than UA. So G4s MX mishap statistics are significantly higher than UAs. Plus, a cancellation at the gate puts a lot less people in danger than an engine failure on a takeoff run.

Their COO and Chief Pilot landing at the wrong airport with less than 3 minutes of fuel left is the cherry on top.

In reply to solarflyer22:

How much better to have returned safely to IAH rather than risk going on eastbound if there was something wrong with the aircraft, and the Captain is certainly the only one to make that call - he or she knows exactly what is going on with the aircraft and has made an informed decision to return for the safety of his/her passengers.

I know it might be an inconvenience , but to be "so pissed" at a captain and his company making a decision in the safe interests of their passengers is entirely the wrong attitude. It is far more important to get the issue fixed rather than ending up in the ocean.

I'm real tired of hearing this yelling for compensation every time an aircraft has a mechanical. All that is going to do is help push up airfares yet again - it's not going to solve anything. Grrr…...

I understand the entitlement factor. But 20 hours delayed? I think that justifies a bit of recompense, no?

Quoting barney captain (Reply 10): Can anyone help clarify why they felt the need/requirement to divert?

You can only dispatch under MEL with the standby attitude indicator inop in day VMC conditions only.

It is not necessary to divert even under ETOPS/NAT rules. However, with the day VMC restriction, the aircraft is all but grounded where it lands. Likely, UA decided to bring the aircraft to where it could be fixed quicker.

Why all the way back to IAD is a curious question indeed.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 10): This makes no sense. I understand you may not be able to dispatch on an ETOPS flight with a deferred stby attitude indicator - but to divert for one? A standby? How many other examples are there of ETOPS flights continuing to their destination with far greater issues? Many. Can anyone help clarify why they felt the need/requirement to divert?

Sure Barney I'll give it a shot. Is Southwest ETOPS yet? If it is check your manual about required equipment. Some Items do not allow dispatch, some items allow ETOPS but with significant penalties. Finally there are other items that prohibit entry into ETOPS airspace or even class 2 airspace.

I do not have the 757 manuals in front of me right now so this will be a discussion.

As you know the MEL has no authority once airborne however it can be a good source for a CA. If it is very restrictive it may sway your decision making.

Lets say that IF the SBY ATT gyro is differed you can only dispatch ETOPS 60 instead of the normal filed 180. We ask Dispatch if we can do ETOPS 60. If there are no valid airports I would divert back to destination. Also ETOPS 60 may require more fuel because of the need for more suitable airports. If the fuel load is insufficient then you need to divert. Once the plane touch the ground, as you know, the MEL now is binding for dispatch and the crew. So why land somewhere else when you can just return to IAD?

Finally as a pilot who has flown the NAT system for years I can tell you that they are extremely busy especially at that time of night. I would not want to be over a dark ocean in the middle of the night with a complete electrical failure and no STBY ATT Gyro. With the amount of traffic out there only 1000 ft apart and 60 miles lateral you need to maintain altitude and control until clear of traffic. With no horizon it is easy to get disoriented. When you have an emergency you turn 45 degrees off course turn all your lights on ad descend out of the tracks then head to your alternate once below FL290. With all of that maneuvering and no horizon or ATT Gyro I don't thing even Chuck Yeager could unscrew himself!

The CA made the correct decision with regards to safety. I don't know who this crew was but I would have made the same decision.

As far as the 5 HRs of flight? Unfortunately the 757 can not dump fuel and this flight was filled most likely close to 65,000 LBS. As pilots we are only allowed to land overweight in an emergency situation. This was not an emergency so fuel must be burned off.

Instead of demanding compensation and condemning United Airlines. Why don't you thank your pilots for making a safety related decision. Have confidence and relax comfortably knowing that the front of the airplane is concerned about your safety. We are professionals and we always act as such.

Quoting SkyWest700 (Reply 15): Finally as a pilot who has flown the NAT system for years I can tell you that they are extremely busy especially at that time of night. I would not want to be over a dark ocean in the middle of the night with a complete electrical failure and no STBY ATT Gyro.

If you had a "complete" electrical failure, you would lose your standby attitude indicator as well.

However, if one looked at all the possible combinations of electrical failures there is always at least one attitude indicator powered, either directly or by source switching. Right down to the worst case scenario where all AC generators are lost ... and minimum electrics are powered (RAT or battery) the standby attitude indicator is powered by the same bus as the remaining IRS! So ... if you had one, you'd always have the other.

Having crossed the Atlantic more than I care to admit, I would have no problem continuing if a standby attitude indicator became inop ... but sometimes you have to consider the crap fest one is causing one's airline by leaving an aircraft grounded where you landed it.

Quoting SkyWest700 (Reply 15): Instead of demanding compensation and condemning United Airlines. Why don't you thank your pilots for making a safety related decision. Have confidence and relax comfortably knowing that the front of the airplane is concerned about your safety. We are professionals and we always act as such.

Amen.

And so a thread dedicated to a single flight irregularity, in a world where menial flight irregularities occur all the time can now be retired.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 10): This makes no sense. I understand you may not be able to dispatch on an ETOPS flight with a deferred stby attitude indicator - but to divert for one? A standby? How many other examples are there of ETOPS flights continuing to their destination with far greater issues? Many. Can anyone help clarify why they felt the need/requirement to divert?

Better fix it at IAD with United MX and parts, than grounded in DUB with contract MX and no parts. Those decisions are way above my pay grade.

The Standby Attitude and Altitude were unreliable.

Quoting SkyWest700 (Reply 15): Instead of demanding compensation and condemning United Airlines. Why don't you thank your pilots for making a safety related decision. Have confidence and relax comfortably knowing that the front of the airplane is concerned about your safety.

It's funny you should say that, as I travel a lot ... and when my needs can not be accomodated on my own airline, I almost always travel on an American carrier.

My friends laugh ... "Airline A has AVOD". "Airline B had better amenity kits in Y", "Airline C had better meals".

Bottom line, is that I'll trust some crusty old United (or American or Delta) Captain over any airline that has nicer Economy Class menus!

Delays and MX issues happen. It's not a big deal. Go with the flow, collect your RON kit, meal vouchers and hotel voucher at the counter, catch some sleep and come back the next day. Wait for a week, and you'll have an e-mail in your inbox with an e-certificate towards a future purchase. Get over it.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 7): Will they get compensation for this?

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 13): understand the entitlement factor. But 20 hours delayed? I think that justifies a bit of recompense, no?

Sure, $200 E-certificate, $40 dinner voucher, $20 breakfast voucher, Holiday Inn (or similar 3 star hotel) for the night, transportation to/from IAD (likely the hotel shuttle) and a quick "sorry about that, thanks for remaining loyal". Want more? Wait for the return, if it's ex-EU they'd be "entitled" to €600 per fare paying passenger (UA would offer them a $200-$400 E-certificate and only pay the €600 (currently $660ish) if someone specifically calls out the regulation (which relatively few people do).

Quoting longhauler (Reply 19): Bottom line, is that I'll trust some crusty old United (or American or Delta) Captain over any airline that has nicer Economy Class menus!

Fwiw, their long haul economy meals are rumored to have improved a lot (haven't flown that in a while but C service has improved nicely) - and yes, US carriers handle IRROPS much better than many other carriers, although LH has a great process as well with rooms at the Kempinski and €600 is their default for anything that falls under EU regs.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 9): Slept Tuesday night in LAX Terminal 7 with a lot of other nice people who were rebooked from 10:55pm Tues to 6am Wed

See, with UA no one sleeps in the terminal unless they want to. No one goes hungry either. A friend of mine took NK to BOG on time and got stranded there for 3 days since NK refused to send any empty plane down there and instead chose to get pax out as space on existing flights.

Quoting Jetstar315 (Reply 12): I know it might be an inconvenience , but to be "so pissed" at a captain and his company making a decision in the safe interests of their passengers

Safety of passengers? This was a we don't have local parts in DUB, but we do back in US. You do not fly a 3455sm planned flight and after a return have 6900sm flown and claim it was for safty of passengers. It was to make United's fix time easier. Another screw the people with limited vacation time that spent a ton of money on your flight.

BTW: how does a 757-200 fly 6900sm?

[Edited 2016-03-19 10:13:48]

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 21): BTW: how does a 757-200 fly 6900sm?

It can't and did not...the aircraft turned around near Bangor, Maine and flew back to IAD.

Quoting SkyWest700 (Reply 15): nstead of demanding compensation and condemning United Airlines. Why don't you thank your pilots for making a safety related decision. Have confidence and relax comfortably knowing that the front of the airplane is concerned about your safety. We are professionals and we always act as such.

        

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 21): Safety of passengers? This was a we don't have local parts in DUB, but we do back in US. You do not fly a 3455sm planned flight and after a return have 6900sm flown and claim it was for safty of passengers. It was to make United's fix time easier. Another screw the people with limited vacation time that spent a ton of money on your flight.

No this was a per UAs ETOPS rules we, due to the inoperative item, have to divert as we have not entered the ETOPS portion of the flight. As for flying back to IAD...they have to burn off fuel before they can land as they are overweight. I guess they could have gone to EWR as well but perhaps there was more manpower available to fix the aircraft at IAD than EWR.

Quoting United1 (Reply 22):

To piggy back onto IAD vs EWR, at least some on the airplane "belong" at IAD. No one on the airplane was planning to be at EWR so while certainly everyone is inconvenienced, at least those who can and chose to do so can go home.

Quoting ua900 (Reply 20): $40 dinner voucher, $20 breakfast voucher,

Great Caesar Salad !!!

When we misconnected in DEN Thursday night - due to swapping out our wonky 753 *and* snow - I got $20 / $20 (with directions to "City Wok") and some other passengers $10 / $10. Not complaining - City Wok was great.   But a 40 buck dinner in an airport setting must include a full bottle of champaign.

Quoting ua900 (Reply 20): Sure, $200 E-certificate, $40 dinner voucher, $20 breakfast voucher, Holiday Inn (or similar 3 star hotel) for the night, transportation to/from IAD (likely the hotel shuttle) and a quick "sorry about that, thanks for remaining loyal". Want more? Wait for the return, if it's ex-EU they'd be "entitled" to €600 per fare paying passenger (UA would offer them a $200-$400 E-certificate and only pay the €600 (currently $660ish) if someone specifically calls out the regulation (which relatively few people do)

It should be around $600 Euro IMO. I mean it takes 3 hours to go to from the airport and + 5 hours flight time so you basically ruined a day for them. But certainly I understand the importance of MX and flight safety issues. I too got delayed last year heading to pairs on UA 757. It was only 1.5 hours so I got nothing but oh well.

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 21): Safety of passengers? This was a we don't have local parts in DUB, but we do back in US. You do not fly a 3455sm planned flight and after a return have 6900sm flown and claim it was for safty of passengers. It was to make United's fix time easier. Another screw the people with limited vacation time that spent a ton of money on your flight.

Some might think it wasn't safety of the aircraft and passengers, but it most certainly was. And a big issue was that the aircraft would get stuck in DUB and really screw the people who were on the return flight to IAD. The big picture is looked at, not just one or a few passenger's viewpoint, and a best decision is made, and it was in this case. It can be bet, that there were calls made to MX about the issue, and this was the best way to deal with it.

Quoting SkyWest700 (Reply 15): Sure Barney I'll give it a shot. Is Southwest ETOPS yet?

Not even close, which is why I asked the question;

Quoting barney captain (Reply 10): Can anyone help clarify why they felt the need/requirement to divert?

But this;

Quoting SkyWest700 (Reply 15): Instead of demanding compensation and condemning United Airlines. Why don't you thank your pilots for making a safety related decision. Have confidence and relax comfortably knowing that the front of the airplane is concerned about your safety. We are professionals and we always act as such.

Is way out of line. Nowhere did I come even CLOSE to those statements/sentiments - I've been doing this stuff far too long to have that mindset. I was in no way casting judgment, I was looking for information. Your multi-paragraph lecture was unjustified.

Additionally, It seems the decision to divert it isn't as cut-and-dried as you want to believe;

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16): Having crossed the Atlantic more than I care to admit, I would have no problem continuing if a standby attitude indicator became inop

Quoting United1 (Reply 22): No this was a per UAs ETOPS rules we, due to the inoperative item, have to divert as we have not entered the ETOPS portion of the flight. As for flying back to IAD...they have to burn off fuel before they can land as they are overweight. I guess they could have gone to EWR as well but perhaps there was more manpower available to fix the aircraft at IAD than EWR.

Thanks, that's what I suspected, that your OpsSpec's dictated a specific course of action and the crew did exactly what they should have. Every carrier is different, God knows we have requirements to do things nobody else does. Thanks for the explanation.  

Quoting barney captain (Reply 27): Additionally, It seems the decision to divert it isn't as cut-and-dried as you want to believe; Quoting longhauler (Reply 16): Having crossed the Atlantic more than I care to admit, I would have no problem continuing if a standby attitude indicator became inop

doesn't sound like it was just the standby.....

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 18): The Standby Attitude and Altitude were unreliable.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 27): Is way out of line. Nowhere did I come even CLOSE to those statements/sentiments - I've been doing this stuff far too long to have that mindset. I was in no way casting judgment, I was looking for information. Your multi-paragraph lecture was unjustified.

Unreal.....your reading comprehension is poor. You asked a question and I answered. I joined this site in 2006 and stopped posting for over 8 years because of people like you. When someone who knows what they are talking about gives an answer that someone from another airline/job/profession disagrees with you jump down their throat. I watch it happen everyday on this site. I used to respect your posts Barney........

I decided a couple days ago to come back and try and provide information to people that they may find interesting. I guess things haven't changed. This website has turned into a hate fest and its getting harder and harder to learn information. Too much BS to filter through....

I'm not going to argue with you nor anyone else. The decision to divert is never cut and dry in any situation. Guess I'll try again in another 8 years.

Quoting SkyWest700 (Reply 29): Unreal.....your reading comprehension is poor.

If that rant was not directed at me, then I apologize. I re-read it and never recognized you address anyone else.

Quoting United1 (Reply 28): doesn't sound like it was just the standby.....

Yikes.

More than one instrument failure definitely ratchets up the pucker factor. It would make you wonder what was going to fail next.....

SkyWest700, please don't go. I found your explanation very informative and interesting to someone who rarely posts, but is a frequent a reader of this forum. I appreciate your insight and experience, please stay and add your perspective for the thousands of us who stay on the sidelines unless we feel we have beneficial input.

[Edited 2016-03-19 14:54:05]

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 24): But a 40 buck dinner in an airport setting must include a full bottle of champaign

IAD c/d is a dump and doesn't have a steakhouse (like say EWR) so it's tough. No champagne as UA vouchers can only be used at some hotels (namely wherever they ask you to stay), airport restaurants and select retailers (e.g. Hudsons) and DFS is off limits, so no boxes of Godiva / duty free liquor. At c/d the most expensive item is about $20, so you're better off grabbing some moon cheese for your carry on and head on over to the KLM lounge for dinner, before catching a hotel shuttle.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 25): It should be around $600 Euro IMO. I mean it takes 3 hours to go to from the airport and + 5 hours flight time so you basically ruined a day for them.

Like I said, EU regs only apply to US carriers when *leaving* the EU, not when arriving (or trying to arrive before returning to the US)

UA is still likely to offer the $150/200 type certificate, meals, hotel, and RON kit, but not the €600 (~$660). I'm grateful for their efforts to make lemonade out of lemons. Lots of days get ruined all the time, by all kinds of events. No need to single out the airline industry, could have been an uber driver running late to LAX causing you to miss a 1x daily flight resulting in your whole pnr to blow up. No more aisle seats in Y+ (or no C seats available for the next 3 days) and 2 additional connections (in Y- middle seats) in case you're still interested in trying to salvage your schedule.

On most severe delays, I see at least one irate pax ranting about how UA owes them xyz and then they storm out at the gate and that poor agent gets an earful in front of 50+ passing people. Better to stay calm, wait for the official UA assessment, enjoy the sparkling wine aboard the plane until the FAA requires deplaning (or the crew calls it a day or whatever happens there) and take it slow. You're still at a major airport with facilities all around you, no big deal. And even if you landed in some small airport, you're safe and sound. I always carry some snacks with me, and you could grab a blanket on your way out if you felt like there was a military barracks waiting for you. Every day is a gift.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 26): The big picture is looked at, not just one or a few passenger's viewpoint, and a best decision is made, and it was in this case.

That's consistent with my experience as well. UA isn't always the fastest in communicating, but the pilots / gate people are often just relaying what they learn as things emerge, so there's nothing wrong with updates every 30 minutes. They're doing the best they can under the circumstances and deserve credit for doing their best. And things have already changed a lot over the last year, for the better. No more 752s to TXL for starters  

Quoting ua900 (Reply 33): Lots of days get ruined all the time, by all kinds of events. No need to single out the airline industry, could have been an uber driver running late to LAX causing you to miss a 1x daily flight resulting in your whole pnr to blow up.

I think that in many non-regulated situations, UA's compensation is so meager that it comes across as insincere and UA would be better off offering nothing at all. I had a m/x diversion to MEM a couple of years ago. Aside from some confusion between the pilots and dispatch/maintenance control about whether the aircraft would be able to continue in its condition, the whole thing was handled very well (e.g. the station manager was at the gate and perhaps even on the jetbridge when we pulled in). But the 700 miles that UA offered for what turned out to be about 5 hours of inconvenience was laughable. They would have been better off apologizing, getting us on our way, and chalking it up to "stuff happens."

The UA of 2010-2015 or so was a walking, talking customer service misstep. Hopefully this, too, will get corrected as they right the ship.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 34): But the 700 miles that UA offered for what turned out to be about 5 hours of inconvenience was laughable. They would have been better off apologizing, getting us on our way, and chalking it up to "stuff happens."

A maintenance diversion labeled as "inconvenience" is what's wrong with the situation.

Quoting United1 (Reply 28): doesn't sound like it was just the standby

That is what I am thinking as well. The Standby Instruments ... Airspeed, Altimeter and Attitude Indicator are somewhat self contained units that unscrew and unplug. If just the instrument were an issue then I could guess it could be very easily replaced at DUB without the passengers even knowing there was a problem.

That United decided to return the aircraft to the point of departure makes me think there were more issues being considered.

This is an excellent example of "having the big picture". Sometimes these decisions make no apparent sense to us with only half the story, but rest assured .... more than one person, and more than one department of the airline made the decision.

Quoting bahadir (Reply 35): A maintenance diversion labeled as "inconvenience" is what's wrong with the situation.

I didn't pick the word. UA did. I agree with you.