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jumbojim747
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:13 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 244):

No it doesnt.
All im asking that if there might be another aircraft involved we might no be getting told everything .
Lots of mid air incidents accur that we dont hear about.
I sure hope its not the case.
Cheers
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Ty134A
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:19 pm

from the videos one might actually really think that the plane was on fire. if so, this leads to the following question: what can cause an aircraft to be on fire and still be able to fly - or at least to climb???

i remember the LH A320 that scratched a winglet during landing... and i can not see a plane catch fire due to that. would it hit with the wing in such a severe manner, that it catches fire, he could not climb any more!

the only thing that can catch fire because of a tail strike are the fuel lines and the APU when the tail comes off. i highly doubt that. also the tail would be rather intact at the airfield, but there is not a lot left of this 738.

BUT i was lucky enough to witness live an uncontained engine failure upon take off, it was a TU5 in LED. i was aboard another acft and thought nobody will survive that, since there was fire everywhere. luckily nobody was hurt at all in this event (but the tushka suffered!!!).

maybe the engine just blew up apon to/ga... would explain the possible climb, would explain fire.

how would an uncontained engine failure upon go around affect a B737NG? how would the crew handle that in not very ideal met conditions?

finally: is it only me seeing the plane on fire before impact?????
TU3/5,T20,IL8/6/W/9,I14,YK4/2,AN2/4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80/2/7,
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:24 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 244):
Quoting jumbojim747 (Reply 243):
Is there any way it could have colided with another aircraft and came crashing down.
Im no expert but something doesnt add up here .

1 aircraft + 1 aircraft = 1 crashed aircraft?

Does that add up better for you?

has happened before, mostly both planes are lost, sometimes one survives, maybe even the smaller one. but from how i know russia, it is highly unlikely that that time a day in this place another plane or a drone or whatever flew. in russia, it is also rather uncommon to use a civil airfield for military ops and vice versa. there are some (perm), but not many. mehrabad in iran would be an opposite example, or FRA to a certain extend.
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:33 pm

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 252):

Smaller aircraft have been known to survive while the larger has been lost.
I recall the bizjet n600xl that sliced through a 737 wing downing the 737 .
It landed safely but neither crew saw it comming.
Now we may not know the reason untill a full investigation is done but i honestly think we may be kept in the dark on this one.
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:36 pm

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 252):

I was being sarcastic. I know it has happened but without a report of another aircraft sustaining any damage, that scenario doesn't add up at this time either.

[Edited 2016-03-19 15:37:21]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:01 pm

Quoting
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 254):

TWA may have been downed by military missile but was quickly ruled out even before investigation began.
The more i think a out it the more i think another aicraft is involved.
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Pihero
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:05 pm

I'm glad pilotaydin is back on this forum ; he's been sadly missed.
I will not come back on the different theories ( always the same ones : fuel *starvation* / stall / tail strike / managementr pressure / gothere-itis / bomb / microburst... etc...) which basically have no basis, especially considering the facts that we have at hand.
It would be quite interesting to stop a moment on the *environment* of this accident.
- 03.43 H local (the crew had already been on duty for eight hours ( from 16:45 to 00:43 Z)
- Weather was rainy and gusty wind 240°/ 28 gusting to 44 kt and temporarily 34 to 50 kt.
Visibility was just mediocre.
- the approach is in the dark, the city lays mostly , from the pîlot's viewpoint from 11 to 2 to 3 o'clock, meaning that there was a dark patch on the left side of the let-down.

-What does the FR24 readout reveal ?
1/- they had a rather bumpy flight as seen by the GS fluctuations during cruise.
2/- They did shoot for a semi-direct first approach, then overshot and joined the hold
3/- They held initially at FL080 then climbed to FL 150 where they did 9 complete racetrack circuits. Wind at that altitude was rather steady : 30 kt component on the racetrack.

- Aircraft was light , less than 52 t if one considers OEW = 43 t / Pax 5.5 t and fuel 3t = 51.5 t

- Considerations on modern twinjet airliners :
It is something few people outside the cockpit really imagine ; These aircraft have basically the thrust-to-weight ratio of an F-100 superSabre, the hottest thing flying not very long ago.
Problem is, these airliners have the engines slung below the wing, so from a low-weight approach speed AND trim, during a go-around one would go to a very important pitch up moment one would have to fight, both with the yoke and with the trim switches.
It's here that we could see the accident unfold :
- When the pilot initiates the go-around, from 1500 ft, some three nm from the threshold, we have a combination of an acceleration on the airplane axis and a vertical acceleration due to the pitch-up moment.
The inner ear ( our God given gyroscope ) will sense the horizontal acceleration as an added pitch-up, which doesn't stop there as tha aircr'aft is still accelerating. POilot reaction would be to push the control column, but as the aircr('aft is now going down and still accelerating the pilot's sensation will still be aboutr anj aircraft pointing its nose up.
Moreover ( this is less certain ) trhe darlk lefrt side is taken by the pilot as an *UP* side, which is fact he(s trying to avoid.
- Now we are well and truly inside the death dive caused by what pilots now call *somatogravic illusions*, i.e illusions caused by high accelerations.
- I do not a single second believe in a stall of any sort as the destruction of the airplane is so complete.

For like accidents, the first to come to mind is the GulfAir 320 in Bahrain, the Kenya Airways 737 in Beirut, among a lot of others.

So my hunch is for a crew spatial disorientation in gusty conditions after a long duty day.

[Edited 2016-03-19 16:58:03]
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:17 pm

Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 169):
If the aircraft is light the trim is positioned in such a way that the speed is low for the low weight, adding full thrust for a go around with a massive headwind can lead to enourmous pitch up attitude, especially in weather like this where the Autopilot is keen to disconnect...

Seems scary, and also:

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 225):
(2) The trimmed position of the stabiliser, combined with the selection of maximum thrust, overwhelmed the available elevator authority.

http://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aar-3...g-737-3q8-g-thof-23-september-2007

And also:

Quoting barney captain (Reply 64):
Tatarstan 363 -

which says:

Quote:
During the final approach the flight crew were unable to follow a standard landing pattern defined by the regulating documentation. Having considered the aircraft is not lined-up properly relative to the runway, the crew reported to the ATC and started to go around using the TOGA (Take Off / Go Around) mode. One of the two autopilots, which was active during the final approach, has been switched off and the flight was being controlled manually.

The engines reached thrust level close to full. The crew retracted the flaps from 30 degrees to 15 degrees position.

Affected by the upturn moment generated by the engine thrust, the aircraft started to climb, reaching the pitch angle of about 25 degrees. Indicated airspeed has started to decrease. The crew retracted the landing gear. Since initiating the go-around maneuver up to this moment the crew did not perform control actions through the yoke.

After the airspeed decreased from 150 to 125 knots, the crew started control actions through the yoke, pitching nose down, which has led to stopping climb then starting descent and increase of the airspeed. Maximum angles of attack have not exceeded operational limits during the flight.

After reaching the altitude of 700 meters, the aircraft started a steep nosedive, with the pitch angle reaching −75° by the end of the flight (end of the recording).

The aircraft collided with terrain at high speed (exceeding 450 km/h) and with highly negative pitch angle.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan_Airlines_Flight_363

What seems to be in common in these cases is that you need two well-coordinated crew members to act instantaneously to deal with TOGA thrust on the 737s, one on the yoke and/or trim to deal with pitch, the other on throttles to deal with the case where the autothrust gets disengaged.
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:37 pm

I am still stuck on the possibility of spatial disorientation. The ceiling was pretty low, so I worry they might have gotten confused. Also, someone mentioned that crews have complained about rest. Could fatigue have also contributed? I am sure we will know eventually. Whatever happened, I hope lessons can be learned, and that it will help prevent a similar incident.
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Silver1SWA
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:07 am

It's no wonder the highly respected, knowledgable members have disappeared from the forum over the years. We have a member who has tons of experience flying these airplanes and investigating accidents giving his highly educated opinion on what probably happened, and people shrug it off in favor of conspiracy theories.

Sigh...

Quoting jumbojim747 (Reply 255):
TWA may have been downed by military missile but was quickly ruled out even before investigation began.
The more i think a out it the more i think another aicraft is involved.

There was a punchline and I went for it. I found your post to be ironic. That's all.

[Edited 2016-03-19 17:08:51]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Shmendr
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:13 am

A few more questions.

1. After a pilot decides to go around, what are the step by step procedures?

2. How long does it take after the pilot commands for the spoilers / elevators to be retracted, before they are actually retracted? (30 seconds? 2 minutes? more?)

3. If the 737 was full (max passenger load), would the trim settings on final approach be different then with a light load (52pax)?

many thanks to anyone who can provide the info
 
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:21 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 257):
The trimmed position of the stabiliser, combined with the selection of maximum thrust, overwhelmed the available elevator authority

About this particular point, could it not also happen to an Airbus FBW ? Or would the protections do things differently than man by :

- not flooring the engines ?
- acting very quickly on the trim (but I think trimming is slow) ?
- do something with the aero configuration to compensate (stow the leading edge devices, extend the spoilers, something like that) ?

Or do they just have more elevator authority ?
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:29 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 245):
Some operators allow autopilot coupled go-arounds in the 737, some don't.

This is the interesting question to me given that it appears the airplane flew straight into the ground at very high speed. At some point the crew should let the AP take over the missed approach, correct? The procedure should already be loaded in the FMS.
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:32 am

Another video purportedly of the FZ 981 accident from an airport's CCTV camera. The aircraft certainly looks like it was in flames before the impact. Thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhet5XEw26Q

[Edited 2016-03-19 17:35:06]
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:32 am

Given the local weather information, knowledge that two aircraft ahead of me had tried approaches and gone on to alternates and the injunction that highly skilled pilots don't put themselves in situations where their high skill is needed, I'd have flipped open the cover on the "go somewhere else" switch and armed it. For damn sure, I wouldn't have held for two hours. That amount of time could have put me 1,000 miles away from the windy, dark and scary stuff which is where I've tried to be during my 50+ years as an instrument pilot.

Not to fault the crew, but I got my instrument training from a Burma Hump pilot who insisted that he wasn't an Eagle but just a rather large Chicken.

[Edited 2016-03-19 17:37:05]

[Edited 2016-03-19 17:39:25]
 
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:45 am

Quoting Shmendr (Reply 260):
2. How long does it take after the pilot commands for the spoilers / elevators to be retracted, before they are actually retracted? (30 seconds? 2 minutes? more?)

I am not a 737 pilot, but I think what you meant to say was the landing gear and flaps and slats. The elevator is the control surface on the tail of the aircraft that controls pitch (nose up or down). Those do not get retracted. I would like to think spoilers would not be up at that phase of flight, and if they were something is not normal with that approach. Spoilers are regularly used on descent phases of flight, but thats at much higher altitudes. Then they also come up as soon as the aircraft touches down.
To answer your question, a go around is literally a split second process. Both pilots are working on the situations simultaneously. Power, landing gear, flaps/slats are all literally handles within a few seconds. A go around can be a busy time in the cockpit. That's also why pilotayden and piheros input is very important here. We know for a fact that just before the crash this aircraft was going through the go-around process. Its a stressful time on a tired crew in very poor weather conditions and it appears things got away from them.
Go ahead and let some of these other members blab away about anything they want. Missiles, fuel starvation, mid-air collision, inflight breakup (always a favorite) etc, but there are only a few people here that you should really take seriously about this kind of stuff. Not to disrespect anyone here, but some of the things people come up with especially when we already have some vital information is just ridiculous.
 
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:27 am

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 265):

Some of us on here are not professing to know the cause we are asking questions of posuble causes.
Last time i knew we are intitled to do so on this forum
Or am i missing something
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CabSauv
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:42 am

Quoting jumbojim747 (Reply 266):
Some of us on here are not professing to know the cause we are asking questions of posuble causes.
Last time i knew we are intitled to do so on this forum
Or am i missing something

Mate, you've been a member here since 2004 and you still do not get that only a privileged select few have the right to voice an opinion  

You just have to watch the oleaginous clump of non sequiturs sweat their insecurities

You can not ask questions or expect answers here of the selected ones - the answer will remain the same: In the immortal words of John Cleese, "that’s a purely technical question that I can’t possibly be expected to answer"
 
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:55 am

Quoting CabSauv (Reply 267):

Mate are you serious .?
Yes i have been a member since 2004 and this is the first time i get told that i have no right to an opinion and only a selected few have.
So you telling everyone on here to basically shut up and let you and a few in the business have a say .
If those where Anets rules it would be a very boring forum for all.
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:57 am

Quoting jumbojim747 (Reply 268):

Sarcasm Gauge inop?
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:04 am

Quoting flynlr (Reply 269):

Well you may be right .
I didnt pick up on it that he was being sarcastic .
Cheers
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:04 am

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 242):
Please, just read Pilotaydin's theory and I am willing to pretty much guarantee you have the cause right there. no reason to bring up other extremely unlikely events.

There is if someone has a question about it. While it's interesting that the various other ideas are popping up AFTER Pilotaydin's information was shared, they certainly still can have questions.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 247):
OMG guys really? Who are you even asking this question to? You do know none of us were there right? At this point anything could have happened.

Relax.   They're just sharing their ideas and questions.

Quoting jumbojim747 (Reply 253):
Now we may not know the reason untill a full investigation is done but i honestly think we may be kept in the dark on this one.

Really? Based on what?

Quoting Shmendr (Reply 263):
Another video purportedly of the FZ 981 accident from an airport's CCTV camera. The aircraft certainly looks like it was in flames before the impact. Thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhet5...Ew26Q

Posted up-thread, but yes, interesting and tragic. One thought is that the "flames" were perhaps lights or an engine(s) flaming out, but they look magnified due to the limitations of the camera equipment.

Quoting CabSauv (Reply 267):
Mate, you've been a member here since 2004 and you still do not get that only a privileged select few have the right to voice an opinion  

You just have to watch the oleaginous clump of non sequiturs sweat their insecurities

You can not ask questions or expect answers here of the selected ones - the answer will remain the same: In the immortal words of John Cleese, "that’s a purely technical question that I can’t possibly be expected to answer"


I think that's a bit disrespectful, although it can of course seem a bit disrespectful to those who have the experience to take their time to share only to have it brushed aside for unsubstantiated what-if's.

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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:47 am

Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 238):
When I worked on the Amsterdam accident the 737 stalled below 500 feet, when power was added by the captain the pitch up and trim were so powerful he had to take his hand off the throttle and hold the plane down with two hands, which is when the throttles idled themselves again and the aircraft crashed...

This is something that baffles me ... what on earth went through their minds that they couldn't act as a crew and one person handle the throttle, the other fly the airplane. Sometimes you need more than two hands.

Is division of tasks something that is taught in cases like this? (I don't fly airplanes, truly curious here ...)

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 251):
i remember the LH A320 that scratched a winglet during landing... and i can not see a plane catch fire due to that. would it hit with the wing in such a severe manner, that it catches fire, he could not climb any more!

I would hazard a guess that all depends on how "hard" you scrape the wing ... if it's a hard enough bang, you could bend or break the wing structure ... either releasing fuel from the tanks, destroying lift, or both.

Look at all those MD11 crashes to see what happens when you snap a wing on landing ... the other wing flips you right over and you end up with an upside down burning airplane. If coupled with some kind of cartwheeling event, you can also get quite a bit of destruction.

This airplane isn't broken up like it cartwheeled. The 777 in San Francisco is what that looks like.

This airplane is pulverized. Pictures we've seen, the pieces are tiny; there literally are no large pieces of structure.

Now as to the fire ... if he banged the wing enough to cause a fuel fed fire, that's something we'll have to see if the investigators say happened.

One would think if this happened on the FIRST attempt at landing (which there's been no indication they actually touched down) you would think they would radio this info; they didn't. No mention of tailstrike, fire, anything.

If it happened on the SECOND attempt, how the heck did they scrape a wing, start a fire, get back up in the air, come back down in view of the video camera, and crash? When they were already well before the threshold of the runway. Just doesn't seem to add up.

Yeah, it looks weird in the video, but there just doesn't seem to be a plausible scenario offered yet supports what happened. To me, the landing lights theory seems most likely.
 
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:50 am

Is it possible that they might have been trying an unusual attitude recovery technique for being nose high. (Drop a wing and use rudder to lower the nose)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35Zy_rl8WuM
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:11 am

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 210):
I wonder if it is because pilots receive their simulator training when they are well rested and fresh, instead of tired at the end of a long, stressful day, that the skills are not automatic, when needed.

This is not the case. Simulators run 24/7 so we are often rather tired in the sim. Say you have a 2100 sign-on for a two hour briefing. The sim starts at 2300 and runs to 0300. Yeah, we're pretty tired at the end... Of course, if the sim is during "office hours" it's different. In other words, just like a flight, "it depends".

Sims are also quite tiring and stressful compared to normal flights because you skip all the "cruisy" bits. You don't have the usual hour to set up the plane with interruptions, cracking open the pack of peanuts, waiting for late passengers and so forth. You have 20 minutes. When you go flying in the sim it's constant exercise, test, procedure... We don't sit in the cruise and chat during sims.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 211):
Quoting nikeherc (Reply 211):
I wonder if it is because pilots receive their simulator training when they are well rested and fresh, instead of tired at the end of a long, stressful day, that the skills are not automatic, when needed.

The skills are deteriorating partly because of very little manual flying and very little practice of demanding manual flying in nonprecision approaches.

This is true. And in latter years sim training has been changing to include more manual handling.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 219):
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 214):
First time for the PF at an airport + with difficult weather conditions + possible damage to the controls of the aircraft = should have diverted

Your putting too much on the fact that it was the pilots first time at this airport. If an airplane crashed at JFK, would we really speculate that a causual factor was the pilots unfamiliarity with the airport? At some point we need to realize that the pilot sees an approach as guided by the instruments to a strip Of pavement 150 feet wide and 10,000 feet long. Yes there are special cases, like ASE, but the vast majority of airports and approaches are not special, they are standard.

Indeed. New airport is a factor but most approaches are well within norms and should not surprise the pilots assuming a proper briefing

Quoting UALWN (Reply 221):

After reading pilotaydin's posts and looking up Tatarstan Airlines Flight 363, it seems to me that it does provide a plausible explanation for yesterday's crash. Without any desire to start an A vs. B fight, may I ask the experts if the Airbus alpha protection would prevent a stall in these circumstances?

Yes.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 261):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 257):
The trimmed position of the stabiliser, combined with the selection of maximum thrust, overwhelmed the available elevator authority

About this particular point, could it not also happen to an Airbus FBW ? Or would the protections do things differently than man by :

- not flooring the engines ?
- acting very quickly on the trim (but I think trimming is slow) ?
- do something with the aero configuration to compensate (stow the leading edge devices, extend the spoilers, something like that) ?

Or do they just have more elevator authority ?

TOGA is TOGA on Airbus. The engines are "floored" regardless. There certainly is a significant pitch up moment which you have to catch. Not really a problem if you're aware of it. You want to pitch up anyway. Smooth and reasonably gradual works fine as usual. I won't get into the intricacies of auto-retraction but it doesn't really compensate as I think you mean.

Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 236):
But i'll tell you what is on your aircraft...a copilot! CALLOUTS!!

One of the big ones to learn when you transition to an airliner. Mode awareness. Calliing the modes and ensuring the other guy is aware. Very very important.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 256):
I'm glad pilotaydin is back on this forum ; he's been sadly missed.

  

Quoting Shmendr (Reply 260):
1. After a pilot decides to go around, what are the step by step procedures?

I don't fly the 737, but in general it would be something like this.
- Pilot Flying: Calls "Go around, flaps". Thrust levers to TOGA. If hand flying, pitch up to initially a defined type-specific attitude, then follow FD. If autopilot on it becomes very type specific but might be limited to monitoring the plane's actions.
- Pilot Monitoring: Responds "Flaps xxx". Selects one flap setting up.
- PF: Calls flight modes from the PFD, for example "TOGA. SRS. Go around Track".
- PM: Responds "check" to confirm he has also seen it and modes are correct.
- PM: On seeing climb both on RA and VSI, calls "Positive climb".
- PF: "Gear up."
- PM: Selects gear up and responds "gear up".
- PF: Selects lateral mode as needed. Autopilot on as needed.

Those are the initial actions. Then you get into cleaning up the aircraft and pretty much identical to a normal take-off.

Quoting Shmendr (Reply 260):
2. How long does it take after the pilot commands for the spoilers / elevators to be retracted, before they are actually retracted? (30 seconds? 2 minutes? more?)

Spoilers are very quick. Only a few seconds. High-lift devices are slower, but one step (e.g. Flaps 2 to Flaps 1) would be less than ten seconds.

Quoting Shmendr (Reply 260):
3. If the 737 was full (max passenger load), would the trim settings on final approach be different then with a light load (52pax)?

Depends more on the load distribution than the load itself.

Quoting litz (Reply 272):
Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 238):
When I worked on the Amsterdam accident the 737 stalled below 500 feet, when power was added by the captain the pitch up and trim were so powerful he had to take his hand off the throttle and hold the plane down with two hands, which is when the throttles idled themselves again and the aircraft crashed...

This is something that baffles me ... what on earth went through their minds that they couldn't act as a crew and one person handle the throttle, the other fly the airplane. Sometimes you need more than two hands.

Is division of tasks something that is taught in cases like this? (I don't fly airplanes, truly curious here ...)

In my limited experience I've never seen this kind of thing. Tricky because that would entail normal PF/PM task sharing to be radically altered in the midst of a critical phase.

However it is definitely possible to do such things. Communication is key as usual. If you want the PM to handle the thrust levers, tell him/her and ensure you get a response. "Communication of intent" is a big thing in multi-crew ops and must go beyond obligatory minimum call-outs.

Of course, rather easy for us to talk about sitting here. Very different when flying an approach that isn't going well.

[Edited 2016-03-19 20:16:42]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Hywel
Posts: 705
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:51 pm

RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:15 am

Seems increasingly to be a botched go around that led to a stall, which could be due to one or more of the following factors:

1. Mechanical failure - very unlikely but can't be entirely ruled out yet.
2. Weather - flying into CB clouds on the go around, wind shear caused pitch up?
3. Crew fatigue - 6 hour flight all in darkness, plus 2 hours of restlessness from holding. Had they performed several night flights in the preceding days, messing up their body clock?
4. CRM - language barrier, misunderstanding?
5. Psychological - captain was on one of his final flights with flydubai, possibly distracted thinking about leaving soon.
6. Unfamiliarity - first time flying into Rostov (shouldn't really be an issue, but it's been a factor in previous crash reports)

Just my opinion/interpretation of the facts released so far.

[Edited 2016-03-19 20:19:18]
 
copter808
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:17 am

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 247):
Read Pilotaydin's responses he hit is as closely as possible at this point in time

Not only is he one of the most informed members here, he also has a pretty plausible explanation.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 265):
Go ahead and let some of these other members blab away about anything they want. Missiles, fuel starvation, mid-air collision, inflight breakup (always a favorite) etc, but there are only a few people here that you should really take seriously about this kind of stuff. Not to disrespect anyone here, but some of the things people come up with especially when we already have some vital information is just ridiculous.

This is far too common here. It will be interesting to reread this thread 2 years form now and after the full report is released.
 
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ThrottleHold
Posts: 565
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:26 am

The amount of bullshit posted on this thread could fill a warehouse.

I could write some rebuttals, but I'd just be wasting my time pissing in the river of uneducated amateur armchair "expert" speculation drivel above.
There was a time I could be bothered, but not anymore.

[Edited 2016-03-19 20:32:53]

[Edited 2016-03-19 20:33:46]
 
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jeta380
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:55 am

RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:06 am

Quoting CabSauv (Reply 267):
Quoting CabSauv (Reply 267):
Mate, you've been a member here since 2004 and you still do not get that only a privileged select few have the right to voice an opinion  

You just have to watch the oleaginous clump of non sequiturs sweat their insecurities

You can not ask questions or expect answers here of the selected ones - the answer will remain the same: In the immortal words of John Cleese, "that’s a purely technical question that I can’t possibly be expected to answer"

I have been a member of this site for 10+ years. I was reading the site for a number of years prior to that.

I'm not a pilot nor work in aviation. I just like aircraft.

I gave up posting any serious posts years ago, due to being burn't by people who are experts (or so called) in this field.

It has been disappointing because it curved my participation in the Forums and gave me a dim view of some of the people in this industry, due to people with Superiority complex's.

There are people who love and follow my industry which is policing (which I have 16 years experience in), but I do not feel the need to burn them on our website's, over lack of technical knowledge. As frustrating as it can be sometimes, I know this would cause the general public to have a dim view of us and I remind myself they do not to understand the the split second decisions we make, the technical, policy and legislated side of our work.

Something for the guilty here to think about.

Now, I will quietly go back to looking at the pictures.

Feel free to have another shot....I expect it.

[Edited 2016-03-19 21:13:45]

[Edited 2016-03-19 21:16:26]

[Edited 2016-03-19 21:19:33]
 
aeronaftis
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:19 pm

RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:17 am

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 218):
There is a certain amount of residual fuel that cannot be utilized in every plane. It is even included in the empty weight calculation along with oil and other necessary fluids. There would certainly be enough to support a fire in a crash.

Granted about residual volatile liquids. But this was a very large fireball. 'Classic' fuel starvations do not usually cause such a dramatic dive and pulverised loss - eg: Avianca 707 was a gliding impact with terrain in which about half occupants survived. In other fuel starvations a total loss can occur - eg Helios 737-300 Athens - with all occupants including crew incapcitated - but there is usually no large fireball.
 
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ThrottleHold
Posts: 565
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:00 pm

RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:22 am

Quoting jeta380 (Reply 278):

I gave up posting any serious posts years ago, due to being burn't by people who are experts (or so called) in this field.

There's nothing wrong with posting serious questions. I'd encourage that.
Asking is how one learns.

My problem is with the "I watched the 20 second cctv, it's definitely a reverse vampire pilot caused accident" crowd.

Quoting jeta380 (Reply 278):
t has been disappointing because it curved my participation in the Forums, due to people with Superiority complex's.

Thinly veiled that it's directed at my response.
I don't have a superiority complex. However, I do have 11,000+ hours of multi engine jet, most of it wide body worldwide ops and 3,000 wide body PIC. That's not a superiority complex, that's experience.
. When I call bullshit, it's not from my FSX armchair, it's from reality.
 
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ThrottleHold
Posts: 565
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:00 pm

RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:26 am

Quoting jeta380 (Reply 278):

There are people who love and follow my industry which is policing (which I have 16 years experience in), but I do not feel the need to burn them on our website's, over lack of technical knowledge.

My brother is a 15 year cop. I don't go onto police websites spouting crap about how they're doing it wrong, because I've no idea what in entails.
 
777ER
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RE: FlyDubai 738 Crashes On Approach In Russia

Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:28 am

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