Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
trnswrld
Posts: 1381
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:04 pm

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 96):
Here is a 3D reconstruction of the crash (or what s believed to be the cause of the crash)


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1jAjwZ5QlbQ&feature=youtu.be

Interesting. Why do the security videos all show what appears to be an aircraft in an extreme nose down attitude, but this animation makes it look like a almost normal attitude until point of impact. I think this animation was just made up and not accurate...atleast that's what I'm gathering based on seeing the released videos of the actual crash.

[Edited 2016-03-20 13:05:26]
 
danvs
Posts: 208
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:34 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:11 pm

The airplane falling in a left bank may or may not be related to the chart for the ILS Rwy 22. The missed approach procedure requires a left turn to intercept radial 080 to KS NDB.

About potential witnesses: remember it's almost 4 am local time when the accident occurred, so most people were asleep. The tower personnel, however, might have something to say.

Although I agree that terrorism is an extremely unlikely scenario, it amazes me how quickly they ruled out this (remote) possibility. With the debris being so tiny, did they really test for explosives all the debris that should be tested? Or testing for explosives is not legally necessary in this case?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15092
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:13 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 98):
I'm not sure how accurate that animation is. All indication are the a/c impacted on the runway, likely in a nose down attitude.

After performing a steep climb none the less as well before the sudden reduction in altitude.

The animation is C.R.A.P., thats Russian for low quality.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:43 pm

THe usual *Pretty Picture Syndrome* for those interested.
An eight year old at play .   
Contrail designer
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3470
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:52 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 18):

However, if true and the captain was limited with options because of this, with management not liking the associated costs from a diversion, then the route should not have been set up in the first place. Every airline should have a contingency plan for diversions, and safety comes first - make a fatigued crew hold for 2 hours in gusty conditions, or divert them and get the plane on the ground safely. flydubai even fly to Krasnodar, so they'd have a contract with ground agents there to deal with the diversion.

You keep placing the blame on management with 0 indication they had any role in the captain's decision.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 20):
t's a legendary program, called "Children of the Magenta". Sadly, some companies today are actually teaching that you MUST use the computer as much as humanly possible. The fabulous Captain Dave was so opposed to this that, in his blog, he routinely and snarkily referred to the stick and rudder as the "Emergency Flight Controls".

In any event, for those who haven't seen this program from 1997, here it is on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10

Fantastic video that I believe every pilot should watch. We watched it in my aircraft safety class in school. Really opened some of our eyes. We were flying these shiny C172s with G1000s. We would complain about how we didn't have this or that. Once we saw that video we understood why they wanted us to hand fly 100% of the time.

Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 35):

if you are baffled take a look at TK accident from a few months ago...the aircraft hit the ground at 4.9 G, went around, lost 2 hydraulics, struck the tail and wing, couldnt use flaps or gear and she landed perfectly...it was an A320...

aircraft are designed pretty damn sturdy....

You can't compare accidents evenly. You're assuming that both aircraft hit at the same speed and angle. Which is extremely unlikely. Can you draw similarities? Sure. But very rarely are you going to have identical accidents.

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 81):
I am afraid that the management might have took the decision instead of the Captain and forced him to land at the airport. Maybe he was holding for 2 hours waiting for the weather to get better, then went to land the aircraft due to low fuel(??)

They had 2 more hours of fuel left.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1869
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:03 pm

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 87):

Yeah this is extremely sad no matter what way you look at it. For whatever reason it sounds like the pilots were dead focused on landing at this airport, and this airport only.

An alternative possiblity.

They still had plenty of fuel left. Fly Dubai had not given them the minimum to save money but gave them plenty of extra fuel in case they needed it.. Given the difficulty of resuming normal operation after a diversion they were ordered to keep trying as long as they had a save amount of fuel left. They gave it one last try and had to do a Go Around instead. After that they were going to divert. The Go Around went wrong and they crashed instead.
 
huxrules
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:17 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:14 pm

Was there any icing in the area when this happened? I've seen ice before in thunderstorms but usually it's not much.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20002
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:28 am

Quoting Classa64 (Reply 55):

Quoting Pihero (Reply 52):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEThAV3Y2_I&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for the link, good reading.

My question though is; could all this have been avoided just by looking at there instruments?
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 71):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 52):
This is the somatogravic illusion

So does that mean that they weren't looking at their instruments but rather just going by what they felt?

With the caveat that it is speculation, let's assume this crash was caused by an illusion causing disorientation and a loss of control. Yes, by following instrument indications such things can be avoided.

However... Things are not that simple. All pilots have experienced illusions in flight. If nothing else during initial training such illusions are demonstrated. These are common and often very convincing. When every instinct you have is screaming at you that you are diving, or climbing, or turning, it can be quite hard to resist this instinct. In a time critical situation, "just look at the instruments" can be a harder thing to do than one might think.

Add in fatigue... The brain reverts to more basic behaviour patterns, which can mean following instinct instead of intellect. When I'm tired, my scan deteriorates.'

"Just look at the instruments" is a hard skill to learn. It is a crucial skill, but the reason it is focused on so much is not only its importance but also how rapidly it can slip away in a crisis.

(Again, I'm not saying this has anything to do with the crash.)

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 64):
I suggested in another thread that possibly the airport should have been closed, and I was told that clearly things weren't bad enough to close the airport and the suggestion was considered outrageous.

But when every other one of the few flights at that time were diverted, I guess we will find out why these pilots chose not to divert and pursue another landing. Maybe the crew discussed it.

Unless you literally can't keep the runway(s) clear because they're contaminated with snow or something, airports should be kept open. This gives pilots options. Much better to have an open airport with marginal conditions than be faced with a closed airport when might you need it. By all means weather should be reported, but the decision should rest with the pilots, not the controllers.

Quoting lychemsa (Reply 72):
A Russian plane diverted to a nearby airport. Why didn't he do that I wonder instead of flying nowhere for 2 hours.

Two seemingly similar flights can be very different. There are so many factors, first off being a possible difference in fuel levels. Take two pilots on two the same day and they might make two different decisions, both correct. Maybe one pilot was more tired? Maybe one was more recent with gusty landings? Maybe one captain felt his FO had less experience and could be relied on less for support? Maybe one was more familiar with the area?

[Edited 2016-03-20 17:41:26]

[Edited 2016-03-20 17:56:27]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Sevensixtyseven
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:33 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:35 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 105):

I don't mean to come across as harsh, but the extra fuel wasn't someone who was feeling philanthropic at the time the loadsheet and fuel load was being considered, and it certainly wasn't to "save money". From what I know, the cost of fueling for a foreign airline in Russia is expensive, as is for a Russian airline away from the country. Aeroflot has started tankering fuel out of SVO, so they don't have to spend as much due to the cost of fuel. FlyDubai got a full load of fuel..8.5 hours worth, so the airline wouldn't have to spend as much for gas for the return flight. They got all that petrol to save money.
I call the dusty desert my home. :)
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21833
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:48 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 53):
An aerodynamicist would disagree with you. A stall occurs when the critical angle of attack is exceeded. When exceeding the critical angle of attack on an airfoil section the lift/curve slope decreases rapidly, however it is still generating some lift and a lot more drag.
Quoting Pihero (Reply 57):

OK. That was my observation on doing stalls / aerobatics :

So I think you're both right. Initially, there will be a significant depression on top of the wing, it's just that the wing is pointing the wrong way, so there's a huge depression really *behind* the wing dragging the whole aircraft back in the face of an enormous mound of pressure *in front* of the wing. The aircraft at this point cannot make enough thrust to stay airborne/move forward and so the wing stops generating lift and the depression vanishes. So my understanding is that early in the stall, Zeke is right and later in the stall, Pihero is right.

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 86):

Russian Authorities: Flight recorders severely damaged and may take a month to recover data.

Oh no.  
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:15 am

Alright folks, I've been thinking about this since the inital thread and have some additional observations (airline pilot here).

You can assume with a degree of certainty that the autopilot and autothrottles were both OFF. Even if they didn't actually touchdown, if they were below decision altitude on the ILS or localizer approach (ATC was unclear), they would still probably be off.

Now these things being assumed, one of two things will happen on a go around. If the crew presses the GA button, the flight director will pitch up and you must pitch the aircraft into the flight director. As you are doing this, you MUST push the thrust levers all the way to the stop or you won't produce enough thrust.

The pilots called that they climb to 8,000 feet in the case of a missed approach (which is high in my mind given the terrain unless they decided to give it one more shot and bail out to another airport.) From the data I have seen and the video, it appears they got to about 4,000 feet before plunging back to earth.

In addition, given the high winds and weather in the area, a go around would likely be very bumpy and lead to speed deviations on the airspeed indicator.

Based on the above, my guess is a combination of the following occurred: The thrust levers were not pushed all the way forward when the go around was initiated. If you look at the two go around profiles, the aircraft was not gaining the same amount of altitude at the same rate as the first and appears to have a higher pitch angle. (check the end of the following videos)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In4ijkwJtLw&ebc=ANyPxKrp6FNrS-epN1_V06zpLokGTKb8QihO8d1mIkmKiEEcHBGr1feg_d5Cin7cQdRnSye4HBAowWyrgPXWkWnBnQwcNWaqag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRUVDZjBAAs

If hand flying the aircraft, spacial disorientation could also be a major factor.

Lastly, there are NOTAMs for intensive bird migration from 0300 daily but given the weather I would think this is less likely but still possible.

A microburst or downdraft is also possible given the CBs in the area but also less likely given the climb to 4,000 feet and the nosedive after and without seeing radar the weather doesn't seem condusive.

Also, the video is consistent with a low altitude stall. Swept wing aircraft if uncoordinated (and given the weather this is likely to a degree) have the nasty habit of one wing stalling harder than the other and the video seems to reflect this.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:21 am

Quoting lapa_saab340 (Reply 78):
The cross-checking your brain does of the above 3 inputs now becomes compromised because the eyesight is no longer a strong input.
Quoting lapa_saab340 (Reply 78):
believing what the eyes see through the instruments becomes a difficult task.
Quoting lapa_saab340 (Reply 78):
Pilotaydin and Pihero both gave excellent explanations of the plausible scenario based on what is known.

Thank you. Yes, I read and understood their explanations. I really was trying to understand whether this might mean that they weren't looking at their instruments but rather relying on their other senses? It sounds like - from your reply as well as others - that they may very well have been looking at their instruments but either didn't believe them or didn't interpret what they were seeing correctly.

That was really all I needed to understand, and I appreciate the replies.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4419
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:22 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 99):
Are you really saying that automation has mede flying less safe?

Yes and no. Automation has made the workload much easier, and more precise. However, we have seen a few accidents where automation hinders the ability to save the plane. Until that part of the problem is fixed, the problem remains. Becoming reliant on automation can make someone lazy in a way, and it certainly can be a problem when adding fatigue to the equation. Not saying this was the cause of this particular accident... But, my mind sure has concerns of probable pilot error.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
User avatar
Gonzalo
Posts: 1855
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:05 am

Sad to see another crash with many families affected... and another Boeing 738 down. I know we are not in a position to crticize any decision made by an air crew, but I respectfully have to say that I can't understand why this crew did not diverted, looking at all the information the had available, landing at Rostov was, by far, the less attractive option. I hope the CVR can give us some light about what mind setting they had after holding for so long and if commercial aspects of diverting were part ( or not ) in the process for decision making... RIP to all on board.

Rgds.

G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11123
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:08 am

FZ will retire flight number FZ981/982 from 22 March, flight numbers will now be FZ935/936

http://airlineroute.net/2016/03/20/fz-rov-mar16/
Forum Moderator
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1869
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:38 am

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 108):
I don't mean to come across as harsh, but the extra fuel wasn't someone who was feeling philanthropic at the time the loadsheet and fuel load was being considered, and it certainly wasn't to "save money". From what I know, the cost of fueling for a foreign airline in Russia is expensive, as is for a Russian airline away from the country. Aeroflot has started tankering fuel out of SVO, so they don't have to spend as much due to the cost of fuel. FlyDubai got a full load of fuel..8.5 hours worth, so the airline wouldn't have to spend as much for gas for the return flight. They got all that petrol to save money.

Yes, I get it. They had extra fuel for the reason you gave. Perhaps it was decided that they would use it all up to avoid a diversion if possible. Hence loitering at the destination in the hope that conditions would change. One last shot at landing was made but the go around failed.
 
ALAfly
Posts: 216
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:19 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:44 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 113):

I agree with you totally. R.I.P.
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2455
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:22 am

What is confusing to be is this whole "thrust vectoring" issue of a light 737, especially in instrument conditions.

Shouldn't the pilots be watching the VSI and speed trend vector? Why would it matter so much if you're 30 degrees nose up, as long as your vertical speed is positive and your horizontal speed is increasing?

It would really show badly on aviation if go-around checklists are so burdensome that the pilots lost track of these two critical metrics.

Someone upthread mentioned forcing the yoke downward and trimming down as fast as possible during a lightweight 737 TO/GA. If an aircraft is in weather involving CB, windshear, and possible microburst, this seems to be a bad design for pilots to have to negotiate this complexity of the aircraft when IMO their only focus should be gaining altitude and speed.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
santi319
Posts: 1019
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:35 am

Well sorry to say this, but I know people that actually work in that airline as cabin crew, they do CRAZY redeye turns 6+ hours and back with pilots, and even BTS turns!!! I just don't know how are they allowed to get away with it.. And don't even think of calling sick or getting sick.. My friend got sick during a turn to an Indian city and they almost fired him even though he went to the hospital.. Oh yes the ME Airlines....leading the aviation world...
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1587
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:06 am

http://tass.ru/en/world/863847

"The flight data recorder has been opened. The damaged cable has been mended, the memory module has been studied. The data have been copied. The quality of records is good. The flight recorder was on until the plane hit the ground," he told the FM radio station.

"So, we have the records of this flight. As for the voice recorder, it was also seriously damaged, its cable was destroyed, so, efforts are now being taken to restore it. The works will be resumed tomorrow morning," he said.
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:06 am

Quoting santi319 (Reply 118):

Well sorry to say this, but I know people that actually work in that airline as cabin crew, they do CRAZY redeye turns 6+ hours and back with pilots, and even BTS turns!!! I just don't know how are they allowed to get away with it.. And don't even think of calling sick or getting sick.. My friend got sick during a turn to an Indian city and they almost fired him even though he went to the hospital.. Oh yes the ME Airlines....leading the aviation world...


The ME airlines are slaveships compared to western airlines.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:06 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 112):
However, we have seen a few accidents where automation hinders the ability to save the plane.

Care to mention which?

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 112):
But, my mind sure has concerns of probable pilot error.

In this instance? Sure. But what does this have to do with automation?
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
mandala499
Posts: 6593
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:40 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 61):
But with appropriate training crews can overcome these sensations and still fly the plane properly... Most crews do that very well. The aviation safety world is now discussing how to improve pilot training to avoid disasters like this that are on the increase.

Some things can be trained to death but is so counter intuitive that we can only hope the crew remembers it when it happens. We've gone so long in aviation safety we're now reaching the stage where for each solution comes new problems... It really is becoming an "economic issue" where the "marginal benefit" may be greater than the "marginal cost", but there's the "marginal new problem" created, and once we inputted that 3rd factor, some "improvements" may actually detriment safety on a very marginal scale.

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 95):
Here is a 3D reconstruction of the crash (or what s believed to be the cause of the crash)


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1jAjwZ5QlbQ&feature=youtu.be

I can tell you that the 3D reconstruction shown there, is baloney!

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 81):
I am afraid that the management might have took the decision instead of the Captain and forced him to land at the airport. Maybe he was holding for 2 hours waiting for the weather to get better, then went to land the aircraft due to low fuel(??)

Nothing wrong in their decision. You don't shoot 2 approaches one after the other if the conditions are known to be bad... waiting before shooting another one, is almost always better. You must always consider your remaining fuel state, and your fatigue levels as well. I can safely assume that they still had fuel to shoot that 2nd approach and divert safely. Please look at the posts regarding the remaining fuel endurance before you throw your blaming finger...

Quoting ual777 (Reply 110):
You can assume with a degree of certainty that the autopilot and autothrottles were both OFF. Even if they didn't actually touchdown, if they were below decision altitude on the ILS or localizer approach (ATC was unclear), they would still probably be off.

They never went below the minima... never reached DA, not until they were diving to their deaths.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 110):
If the crew presses the GA button, the flight director will pitch up and you must pitch the aircraft into the flight director. As you are doing this, you MUST push the thrust levers all the way to the stop or you won't produce enough thrust.

Putting the thrust levers forward and following the flight director manually, has been done for over 50 years...
Again, no indications that the aircraft didn't have enough thrust...

Quoting ual777 (Reply 110):
The pilots called that they climb to 8,000 feet in the case of a missed approach (which is high in my mind given the terrain unless they decided to give it one more shot and bail out to another airport.) From the data I have seen and the video, it appears they got to about 4,000 feet before plunging back to earth.

They said they wanted to go to 8000... yes it's high, so? Nothing out of the ordinary, they just wanted a flight level to settle on where the air isn't going to shake them around (unlike the lower levels)...

Quoting ual777 (Reply 110):
The thrust levers were not pushed all the way forward when the go around was initiated. If you look at the two go around profiles, the aircraft was not gaining the same amount of altitude at the same rate as the first and appears to have a higher pitch angle. (check the end of the following videos)

The 2nd go-around has a steeper altitude-to-time profile than the 1st one (yes, I checked the ADS-B data).
The aircraft's groundspeed was also accelerating.
The aircraft had an estimated longitudinal acceleration of 9.2m/s² for about 7 seconds to the apogee of their doomed trajectory, followed by about 5.4m/s² for about 6 seconds, when the last ADS-B position was recorded.
A more detailed ADS-B/Mode-S data was published, showing aircraft having a climb rate of about 4000fpm at 4000ft., that with an accelerating groundspeed, doesn't make it look like they were "lacking thrusts"...

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 112):
Yes and no. Automation has made the workload much easier, and more precise. However, we have seen a few accidents where automation hinders the ability to save the plane. Until that part of the problem is fixed, the problem remains. Becoming reliant on automation can make someone lazy in a way, and it certainly can be a problem when adding fatigue to the equation. Not saying this was the cause of this particular accident... But, my mind sure has concerns of probable pilot error.

People need to remember that automation has made it more safe OVERALL!
But, automation also opens up new risks and hazards.
The public need to be educated that automation has made it more safe, BUT, at a cost of fewer and fewer (but will never be made to zero), silly accidents caused by automation... (fewer and fewer here is using the term 1 occurence per x number of departures).
The media loves to pick on this, for about 5 minutes... coz it doesn't feed their alarmists attention deficit.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 117):
Shouldn't the pilots be watching the VSI and speed trend vector? Why would it matter so much if you're 30 degrees nose up, as long as your vertical speed is positive and your horizontal speed is increasing?

It's easier said than done... please read up somatogravic illusion...  
Quoting santi319 (Reply 118):
Well sorry to say this, but I know people that actually work in that airline as cabin crew, they do CRAZY redeye turns 6+ hours and back with pilots, and even BTS turns!!! I just don't know how are they allowed to get away with it.. And don't even think of calling sick or getting sick.. My friend got sick during a turn to an Indian city and they almost fired him even though he went to the hospital.. Oh yes the ME Airlines....leading the aviation world...

Well, DXB-BTS is only 20NM longer than MAN-HRG... I know some British airline that flies MAN-HRG on a 2 man crew going there and back... I think this EASA style "fatigue management" FDTL is being abused... be it middle eastern slave-ship carriers, or your typical European charter carrier...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2455
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:12 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 122):
It's easier said than done... please read up somatogravic illusion...

A lot of things are easier said than done.

I've been in white out conditions driving my huge aftermarket-accessorized Yukon Denali. 600 hp and lb-ft of torque aren't going to save me, so I pulled over....something aircraft flying can't do. But, current automobiles don't have a "road tracking system", yet aircraft have an equivalent in relying on instrument-ratings and the instruments themselves.

I'm not criticizing the pilots, but the system.

If an instrument-rated pilot gets visually/physically disoriented...fall back on the instruments. Am I wrong? Positive climb, positive speed? Maybe the instruments are going haywire too. I just can't see a smart reaction being: 'let me push the stick into the ground because we're 30 degrees nose up'.

The system should train for somatogravic illusion.

It's ridiculous that so many lives depend on this old shit of pilots and their big swinging dicks (i.e. personalities) knowing everything. Let's solve this and have something better.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
santi319
Posts: 1019
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:36 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 122):

Well, DXB-BTS is only 20NM longer than MAN-HRG... I know some British airline that flies MAN-HRG on a 2 man crew going there and back... I think this EASA style "fatigue management" FDTL is being abused... be it middle eastern slave-ship carriers, or your typical European charter carrier...

I agree this is absolutely insane! Why isn't the JAA on top of this one? NOT SAFE.
 
Hywel
Posts: 705
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:51 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:46 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 122):
Well, DXB-BTS is only 20NM longer than MAN-HRG... I know some British airline that flies MAN-HRG on a 2 man crew going there and back... I think this EASA style "fatigue management" FDTL is being abused... be it middle eastern slave-ship carriers, or your typical European charter carrier...

Double the MAN-HRG distance to 5156 miles for a return sector, and it's only 200 miles short of MAN-LAX. Can you imagine an airline sending a 2 man crew on that flight?
 
eielef
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:07 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:15 am

I was wondering if ROV Airport has an ILS, which category and if it was working that night.
I think that, with a 3-Category ILS, the landing should have been possible, albeit bad weather. Am I mistaken?
Cheers
Eielef @MOW
 
barney captain
Posts: 2349
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:19 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 123):
It's ridiculous that so many lives depend on this old shit of pilots and their big swinging dicks (i.e. personalities) knowing everything.

I honestly have no idea what your point is. Is it that pilots are somehow "macho" and regardless of what is indicated by the instruments, we know better? Completely absurd if so.

You're making an inaccurate assumption, then jumping to a conclusion based on it.

I'm quite certain the crew didn't have that mentality, insinuating so is insulting and disrespectful.

You state you're not criticizing the pilots? You sure have an interesting way of expressing it.

How about we wait for some official findings before we vilify them? Or at least until their remains have been identified?

 
Southeast Of Disorder
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2455
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:27 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 127):
I honestly have no idea what your point is. Is it that pilots are somehow "macho" and regardless of what is indicated by the instruments, we know better? Completely absurd if so.

You're making an inaccurate assumption, then jumping to a conclusion based on it.

I'm quite certain the crew didn't have that mentality, insinuating so is insulting and disrespectful.

You state you're not criticizing the pilots? You sure have an interesting way of expressing it.

How about we wait for some official findings before we vilify them? Or at least until their remains have been identified?

Most people with big attitudes don't like to be checked on it. If that's the issue here, I have no problem with saying what I've said.

Maybe the wing just fell off?

Maybe training was not sufficient?

Maybe if you commented on my whole post, you'd have more to refute than my criticism of SOME pilots personalities?

This is A.net. No one's waiting 2 years for a report on an internet web forum. Wish all you want.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:01 am

Where did the control tower come in, in all this?
As a mere airline passenger, myself and probably many others, one is under the impression that in such situations the tower is needed more than ever and, indeed, that they would have been watching this aircraft with radar, binoculars and whatever else was available to them.

They would have talked to that aircraft? Wouldn't they?
Surely they must have watched all this in real time as it progressed and surely they must have had something to radio/tell the pilots; assist them with advice.

We hear stories where flight control has talked down aircraft, miles away from the nearest airport, completely lost in clouds, all with a happy ending.

If the control tower was watching that aircraft, wouldn't they or shouldn't they have noticed anything dramatically wrong and let the pilots know?
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5354
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:27 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 122):
I think this EASA style "fatigue management" FDTL is being abused... be it middle eastern slave-ship carriers, or your typical European charter carrier...

Bang on.

It is high time the flying public and authorities (those that aren't in on it) realized the ever growing danger of airlines increasingly pushing for productivity gains by rostering their pilots to within minutes of the maximum authorized flight time limitations on a permanent basis.

Ever since aviation authorities started looking at the effects of fatigue and the science behind it, they have formulated flight and duty time limitations which goal is to prevent its insidious effects from creeping into cockpits.

The problem is that, other than the commercial pressure that the operator lobbies always apply on authorities for more flexible rules, there is also the fact that these rules are designed to be a limit, as in a red line of sorts to cater for extreme cases, not as a perennial way to operate.
Of course, that is not how operators see those. They would rather see those rules as targets. The maximum permissible amount of flying done by their pilots is what they will now strive to roster them to do. and of course, it is all 'legal', so when an accident happens where fatigue is a factor, they can conveniently offer that the crew were 'legal' and offset all responsibility onto the crew.

It is not just happening in Europe or the sandbox. It's a global problem.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:31 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 122):
A more detailed ADS-B/Mode-S data was published,

Any available link to that ?

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 123):
current automobiles don't have a "road tracking system", yet aircraft have an equivalent in relying on instrument-ratings and the instruments themselves.

Comparison inane

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 123):

If an instrument-rated pilot gets visually/physically disoriented...fall back on the instruments.

Spatial disorientation has another name : vertigo, but in these cases, a rather more complex phenomenon than just *the earth is turning circles around me *, which is enough to completely impair the grounder having it.
Now imagine - it takes a bit of imagination and honesty - the same thing in three dimensions...

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 123):
I just can't see a smart reaction being: 'let me push the stick into the ground because we're 30 degrees nose up'.

As I said, just a bit of imagination...  

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 123):

It's ridiculous that so many lives depend on this old shit of pilots and their big swinging dicks

Here you're really out of ine.

But I ask you : how do you call a supercilious know-it-all trader riding an over powerful luxury SUV ? A dwarf with an inferiority complex ?
I wonder.

[Edited 2016-03-21 03:52:11]
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20002
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:44 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 123):
If an instrument-rated pilot gets visually/physically disoriented...fall back on the instruments. Am I wrong? Positive climb, positive speed? Maybe the instruments are going haywire too. I just can't see a smart reaction being: 'let me push the stick into the ground because we're 30 degrees nose up'.

As mentioned repeatedly above, in a stressful situation things are not that simple. The brain wants to go back to instinctual behaviours. We have the instruments there and we know intellectually that we should follow them but when you're tired, stressed and maybe even frightened things become very hard.

The brain only has so much attention to give, then it starts discarding information. If you're stressed that decreases your attention span at the expense of important stuff.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 123):
The system should train for somatogravic illusion.

We do train for it. In fact much of our training goes into following instruments in stressful situations.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 123):
It's ridiculous that so many lives depend on this old shit of pilots and their big swinging dicks (i.e. personalities) knowing everything. Let's solve this and have something better.

That's not an accurate depiction of airline pilots.

In my experience, the "big ego dick-swinging" pilot is a rapidly dying breed. Pretty much everyone I've met has been dedicated to learning and very much willing to take input from other crew-members.

This is also why pilot training doesn't focus on making pilots that don't make mistakes, because that would be impossible. The focus is on catching errors before they become a problem. You need a pilot confident in his abilities but willing to accept that he makes mistakes. Example: approach briefings end with "questions?" in order to actively encourage input, even if that input is noting something was missed or wrong.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 129):

Where did the control tower come in, in all this?
As a mere airline passenger, myself and probably many others, one is under the impression that in such situations the tower is needed more than ever and, indeed, that they would have been watching this aircraft with radar, binoculars and whatever else was available to them.

They would have talked to that aircraft? Wouldn't they?
Surely they must have watched all this in real time as it progressed and surely they must have had something to radio/tell the pilots; assist them with advice.

You're not flying around in a bubble. You get new weather info and talk to ATC about weather and traffic conditions. Don't get me wrong. ATC is frequently very helpful. But if you're faced with bad weather, it's not like ATC can make the an accurate assessment of the state of an individual flight.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 129):
We hear stories where flight control has talked down aircraft, miles away from the nearest airport, completely lost in clouds, all with a happy ending.

That's mostly general aviation stuff. Getting lost in a modern airliner takes some real effort or a massive number of malfunctions. By all accounts, this plane wasn't lost.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 129):
If the control tower was watching that aircraft, wouldn't they or shouldn't they have noticed anything dramatically wrong and let the pilots know?

Seeing as this accident happened rather quickly, probably not. ATC can certainly help, but they can't fly the plane.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Hywel
Posts: 705
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:51 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:00 am

Quote:
Fatigue will normally be greater on a night shift than on a day shift because the internal body clock causes levels of alertness and performance to be at their lowest between 02.00 and 06.00. There is good objective evidence that risk is increased at night by about 30% relative to the morning/day shift. There is also good evidence indicating that risk increases in an appropriately linear fashion over at least four successive night shift, such that it is about 40% higher on the fourth night shift than on the first night shift. It is also the case that as single night’s shift following as span of night shifts may not fully dissipate the fatigue that may accumulate over a span of night shifts.

There is good evidence that risk increases over the course of a shift in a roughly exponential manner such that longer shifts are associated with a substantially increased risk. For example it has been estimated that, the risk on a 12-hour shift system is more than 25% higher than that on an 8-hour system. Shifts longer than 12 hours are therefore considered as undesirable.

Source: Link

And yet regulatory bodies still allow airlines to roster pilots on 4 consecutive night shifts, all exceeding 10 hours duty time.

  
 
klwright69
Posts: 2710
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:39 am

So was this same crew going to fly the planes back to DXB that night? No overnight? What is the scheduled duration of the flight?
 
mandala499
Posts: 6593
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:07 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 125):
Can you imagine an airline sending a 2 man crew on that flight?

MAN-LAX? I can tell you they'd like to do that. LAS will probably be a 2 man crew soon (maybe this summer, if not already)...

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 123):
If an instrument-rated pilot gets visually/physically disoriented...fall back on the instruments. Am I wrong? Positive climb, positive speed? Maybe the instruments are going haywire too. I just can't see a smart reaction being: 'let me push the stick into the ground because we're 30 degrees nose up'.

I'll put you in an acceleration chamber then... with some instrumentation like an airplane... then give you the same accelerations, with some other wild cards... You'd probably still put the stick forward 1/2 the time despite knowing it's somatogravic illusion.
The solution isn't as simple as your understanding. Pilots are trained to make decisions one the move using a lot more inputs than the average person... the consequence is stuff like somatogravic illusion is only reduced in likelihood but not eliminated, and other forms of spatial disorientation... it's the aviation decision making process. A conventional process, will probably solve somatogravic illusions, but, at a cost of more accidents due to the abandonment of ADMP and adoption of CDMP...Not a good trade-off...

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 123):
It's ridiculous that so many lives depend on this old shit of pilots and their big swinging dicks (i.e. personalities) knowing everything. Let's solve this and have something better.

There lies the evidence. The remarks is typical CDMP... you need to look at it from an ADMP flow, otherwise you're just telling pilots to kill themselves. Either that, or let's get rid of pilots altogether and we fly in pilotless aircraft... are you ready for that? I'm not...

Quoting barney captain (Reply 127):
You're making an inaccurate assumption, then jumping to a conclusion based on it.

Typical CDMP mindset not understanding ADMP... that's all... We see it everyday   

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 129):
As a mere airline passenger, myself and probably many others, one is under the impression that in such situations the tower is needed more than ever and, indeed, that they would have been watching this aircraft with radar, binoculars and whatever else was available to them.

They would have talked to that aircraft? Wouldn't they?
Surely they must have watched all this in real time as it progressed and surely they must have had something to radio/tell the pilots; assist them with advice.

We hear stories where flight control has talked down aircraft, miles away from the nearest airport, completely lost in clouds, all with a happy ending.

That's not Tower... that's "Precision Approach Radar" controller... We've dumped that system globally a while back due to better ILS.
And no, it would NOT have helped in this situation.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 130):
It is not just happening in Europe or the sandbox. It's a global problem.

And yet, my country is criticized for flying pilots to 109.9hrs a month and 1049.9hrs a year, while sticking to the old FAA style duty limits... Ironic eh?    *just letting off steam*
I got pilots saying they wouldn't be this tired if they flew for FlyDubai, or those Eurocharters, or Cathay... then I tell them the reality of the new FDTL under fatigue management system, and they ended up saying, "maybe it's not so bad after all over here."   

Quoting Pihero (Reply 131):
Any available link to that ?

Voila:
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2100
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:59 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 123):
It's ridiculous that so many lives depend on this old shit of pilots and their big swinging dicks (i.e. personalities) knowing everything. Let's solve this and have something better.

I havent seen in accident in a long long time because of the hazardous 5 attitudes....however being a pilot for 17 years and 12 as an airline pilot, it's sad to read that even on this forum people can use such language...if we the people of aviation speak like this about one another, there is no hope in educating or wining over the general public...

you can never solve the problem of psychology there are too many variables and too many permutations...even the German's who are among the most disiplined people on this planet lost Germanwings to a pilot who slipped past the system...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:23 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 135):

Voila:

Terrifying...
Contrail designer
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2100
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:33 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 135):
Voila:

are those rates of descent i see? -20000??????
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
copter808
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:46 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 99):
Are you really saying that automation has mede flying less safe?

Guess I was commenting without going into detail. Overall, automation has probably made flying safer, but it has also contributed to the loss of basic flying skills. Aviation safety has increased over the past 30 years but it's not where it needs to be yet.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24289
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:23 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 112):
Yes and no. Automation has made the workload much easier, and more precise. However, we have seen a few accidents where automation hinders the ability to save the plane. Until that part of the problem is fixed, the problem remains. Becoming reliant on automation can make someone lazy in a way, and it certainly can be a problem when adding fatigue to the equation.

It's tragic that the use of automation diminishes the skills needed to hand fly the plane and that the automation disengages during the most difficult times to hand fly the plane, with the result that the skills needed to deal with the difficulty have atrophied due to the automation doing all the work during the less difficult times.

File this under the "Law of Unintended Consequences"? ( ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences )

Either that, or "Sod's Law"? ( ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sod%27s_law )

[Edited 2016-03-21 07:27:23]
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:50 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 122):
below the minima... never reached DA, not until they were diving to their deaths.

Was the glideslope in service? I dont have the ability to pull NOTAMs from that day.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 122):
forward and following the flight director manually, has been done for over 50 years...
Again, no indications that the aircraft didn't have enough thrust...

They have, but in the middle of the night after holding for 2 hours one is going to be pretty tired, and this profile is so strange. The only other thing I could think of in this case, is that if the autopilot was on then perhaps they flew into a CB or hit turbulence bad enough to disconnect the autopilot and put them into an unusual attitude.

If they disconnected it themselves, then thats a huge training issue.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 122):

They said they wanted to go to 8000... yes it's high, so? Nothing out of the ordinary, they just wanted a flight level to settle on where the air isn't going to shake them around (unlike the lower levels)...

Its an odd altitude to me given the CBs in the area because 8,000 feet isnt going to smooth things over any, but if they had made a decision to try it one more time then divert it would make sense.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 122):

The 2nd go-around has a steeper altitude-to-time profile than the 1st one (yes, I checked the ADS-B data).
The aircraft's groundspeed was also accelerating.
The aircraft had an estimated longitudinal acceleration of 9.2m/s² for about 7 seconds to the apogee of their doomed trajectory, followed by about 5.4m/s² for about 6 seconds, when the last ADS-B position was recorded.
A more detailed ADS-B/Mode-S data was published, showing aircraft having a climb rate of about 4000fpm at 4000ft., that with an accelerating groundspeed, doesn't make it look like they were "lacking thrusts"...
Quoting eielef (Reply 126):
I was wondering if ROV Airport has an ILS, which category and if it was working that night.
I think that, with a 3-Category ILS, the landing should have been possible, albeit bad weather. Am I mistaken?
Cheers
Eielef @MOW

Im curious about this myself.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 135):

MAN-LAX? I can tell you they'd like to do that. LAS will probably be a 2 man crew soon (maybe this summer, if not already)...

Thats nuts. At my airline 8 hours across the atlantic requires a 3 man crew, and the type of all night turns back to back are illegal.

[Edited 2016-03-21 07:52:55]
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6593
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:38 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 137):
Terrifying...

Very, add that with a longitudinal acceleration of 9.2mss... it ain't pretty...

Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 138):
are those rates of descent i see? -20000??????

Yes...  
Quoting ual777 (Reply 141):
Was the glideslope in service? I dont have the ability to pull NOTAMs from that day.

No localizer only approach is authorized on that runway. G/S must be available or you have to shoot the NDB approach (which many airlines have stopped doing)...

Quoting ual777 (Reply 141):
Thats nuts. At my airline 8 hours across the atlantic requires a 3 man crew, and the type of all night turns back to back are illegal.

Since my country use FAA style FDTL, I agree. NUTS. Our domestic red-eyes with 3.75hrs to 4.5hrs one way are not done as turnbacks. There are no fatigue management guidelines by the regulators but for those, the airline use minimum rest 12hrs before and minimum rest 18hrs after (and we're talking about the famous runway excursion of an airline called Lion Air). A lot of the guys there want to leave for "being tired", they want to to go EK and FZ... all it takes is to show them the roster and they'll chicken out from leaving.   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:48 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 142):
Since my country use FAA style FDTL, I agree. NUTS. Our domestic red-eyes with 3.75hrs to 4.5hrs one way are not done as turnbacks. There are no fatigue management guidelines by the regulators but for those, the airline use minimum rest 12hrs before and minimum rest 18hrs after (and we're talking about the famous runway excursion of an airline called Lion Air). A lot of the guys there want to leave for "being tired", they want to to go EK and FZ... all it takes is to show them the roster and they'll chicken out from leaving.   

The new rest rules and 117 have really made things better here fatigue-wise. The common refrain I hear from guys working for the ME3 is they are exhausted all the time. They file fatigue reports that go ignored, and it seems that their managment teams are about 30-40 years behind in human factors.

In addition I've heard of ops contacting crews via ACARS if they choose to divert and calling them in for a carpet dance with the chief pilot afterwards.

Now unusual attitude training is a whole different can of worms......
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
User avatar
Gonzalo
Posts: 1855
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:51 pm

Please excuse me for this slightly off topic question, but can somebody tell me if the airport / runway is already open or not? And in the case is still closed, is there an estimated date for reopen?

Thanks in advance
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
hivue
Posts: 2076
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:09 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 122):
Quoting ual777 (Reply 110):You can assume with a degree of certainty that the autopilot and autothrottles were both OFF. Even if they didn't actually touchdown, if they were below decision altitude on the ILS or localizer approach (ATC was unclear), they would still probably be off.


They never went below the minima... never reached DA, not until they were diving to their deaths.

So why was the AP (presumably) not flying the missed approach?


EDIT: Just noticed this post:


Quoting ual777 (Reply 141):
The only other thing I could think of in this case, is that if the autopilot was on then perhaps they flew into a CB or hit turbulence bad enough to disconnect the autopilot and put them into an unusual attitude.

Could be the case I suppose.

[Edited 2016-03-21 10:12:02]

[Edited 2016-03-21 10:12:59]
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
IADCA
Posts: 2175
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:11 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 144):
Please excuse me for this slightly off topic question, but can somebody tell me if the airport / runway is already open or not?

It appears to be open. It just had a landing within 10 minutes ago from S7.
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1901
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:12 pm

Quoting copter808 (Reply 139):
Guess I was commenting without going into detail. Overall, automation has probably made flying safer, but it has also contributed to the loss of basic flying skills. Aviation safety has increased over the past 30 years but it's not where it needs to be yet.

I am sure someone has the statistics, but if before automation there was a crash every 1 in 20 000 flights (example) and now we have a crash 1 in every 50 000 flights (example again) that is a good thing. The fact that the current, rare crashes are due to pilots losing some skills due to automation is still better than when every pilot out there was brilliant at hand flying their aircraft but crashing more of the time, right?

I would be happy if the current accidents can be attributed to one factor, it would be very easy to ensure that the industry focus on this very issue to make it even safer.

The numbers I use are just numbers, we all agree that flying is safer now than in the past and automation has played a positive part.
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:52 pm

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 147):
I am sure someone has the statistics, but if before automation there was a crash every 1 in 20 000 flights (example) and now we have a crash 1 in every 50 000 flights (example again) that is a good thing. The fact that the current, rare crashes are due to pilots losing some skills due to automation is still better than when every pilot out there was brilliant at hand flying their aircraft but crashing more of the time, right?

I would be happy if the current accidents can be attributed to one factor, it would be very easy to ensure that the industry focus on this very issue to make it even safer.

The numbers I use are just numbers, we all agree that flying is safer now than in the past and automation has played a positive part.

Agree. And in this specific case, more automation (i.e. flight envelope protection) could have prevented the accident.
 
User avatar
AirlineCritic
Posts: 1764
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 2

Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:07 pm

This may be a bit off-topic, but I hear the lack of manual flying skills repeated as a problem.

May be. But I think it is actually slightly different. If you look at the various different accidents (AF 447 etc), it is often the case that the pilots are capable of flying, but the issue is more about situational awareness. They don't understand they are in a stall.

You may feel that the distinction is one without significant. But I think we have to be very careful about what the problems are, in order to understand how to correct the situation. If the situation is that people don't know how to fly manually, or are inexperienced in manual flying, then the obvious recipe is more hand flying.

But if the pilots tend to lose situation awareness when the computer quits or an otherwise complex situation presents itself, that's a whole different problem. You should train more situational awareness, dealing with surprises, monitoring techniques, the ability to quickly find the reliable sources of information. And that's a much more difficult training task. Mere more hand flying won't help this.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos