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Airbus747
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FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:11 am

Discussed this as part of the crash thread but thought that it is a wider issue that deserves it's own discussion.

This report provides good background on how Emirates Group hides their pilot fatigue issues under the carpet and treats them like slaves almost: https://www.rt.com/news/336823-pilots-respond-flydubai-leak-fatigue/

Why are the authorities hushing this?

Why does such a wealthy country need to have such cut-throat management?
 
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zkojq
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:25 am

Whilst I'm glad this issue is finally getting a bit more prominence, it's very sad that a crash had to happen for it to do so. Unfortunately I get the feeling that the blame will be put in the hands of the crew and that those who instigated the policies that resulted in so many fatigue issues, will escape without being made to take any responsibility at all.  
Quoting Airbus747 (Thread starter):
Why are the authorities hushing this?

Because in many cases the authorities are the same ones that are running the airlines. Case in point: The Chairman of the Emirates Group (Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum) is also on the board of directors of the GCAA (the CAA regulator). In most parts of the world that would be a conflict of interest.

Quoting Airbus747 (Thread starter):
Why does such a wealthy country need to have such cut-throat management?

I guess it's all about making money. The airlines in question seem quite happy in targeting their crews to be flying 95-100 hours per month. EK in particular has quite a reputation for some of the quirky ways that they apply policies to keep crew within Flight Time Limitations.

Interestingly, some of the managers with the reputations for being the harshest (at EK at least) are some of the expats.

I hope some others here will go into more details regarding this issue that I can.
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ltbewr
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:41 am

To compare the treatment of pilots and other airline workers by the ME3 as 'slaves' is insulting to the many millions in the world and 1000's in their home countries that are truly enslaved. They are paid but like many workers outside of 1st world countries they do not have labor protections that should be universal.
I wonder if international organizations and treaty groups as to airlines and commercial flying should create universal and reasonable labor standards including as to max staffing hours. Insurers and re-insurers to these airlines, could also demand well established standards as to staffing times and other sound worker protections to reduce their risks of claims. Destination countries like those in the EU and the USA, could also use their standards and enforce their rules to protect these (and other) airline workers from abuses. The main goal should be the safety of the passengers and crew.
 
aviationaware
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:09 am

This has been a known problem for years now, but has not gained much attention because it was mostly dismissed as hate speech by all the fanboys.

What has not changed is, however, that it remains a fact. Emirates (and the other ME carriers) are pushing this to the limit and are forcing the more established airlines from countries with better occupational health & safety regulations to follow.

This is a dangerous path.
 
Hywel
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:10 am

You should add that it's only the short-haul pilots who get shafted. The long-haul pilots at the ME3 still enjoy a great life.
 
aviationaware
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:25 am

Quoting Hywel (Reply 4):
You should add that it's only the short-haul pilots who get shafted. The long-haul pilots at the ME3 still enjoy a great life.

This isn't true, either. Emirates in particular is known for manipulating the ground (pre/post-flight) portion of the work time in order to bypass regulation that would force them to have the crew layover at the destination, instead they are doing the return flight on the same day with the same crew. Due to the geographical position of Dubai, this affects a lot of destinations and a large share of their schedule.

Because Emirates serves those routes with (largely) the same types of aircraft (and thus the same crews) as their true long haul destinations, there are few pilots who are truly unaffected by this pattern.
 
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:27 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
o compare the treatment of pilots and other airline workers by the ME3 as 'slaves' is insulting to the many millions in the world and 1000's in their home countries that are truly enslaved.

Agreed. Fatigue rules should be followed, but comparing employees that have some laws and recourse to slaves is wrong. Sadly, slavery still exists in this world. A slave cannot quit nor seek other employment. Nor do they have chance of promotion.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
Insurers and re-insurers to these airlines, could also demand well established standards as to staffing times and other sound worker protections to reduce their risks of claims.

In my opinion, that is where the change will come from. I'm certain the next time FlyDubai re-applies for insurance (or re-insurance), they will come under scrutiny. It will be the insurance companies demanding change.


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steve6666
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:28 am

Quoting Hywel (Reply 4):
You should add that it's only the short-haul pilots who get shafted. The long-haul pilots at the ME3 still enjoy a great life.

That's not what the impression given by long-haul pilots working for the ME3 on the pprune forum. There are several long threads bemoaning all of the ME3's attitude to all of their flight crew, LH and SH.
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:39 am

Quoting steve6666 (Reply 7):
That's not what the impression given by long-haul pilots working for the ME3 on the pprune forum. There are several long threads bemoaning all of the ME3's attitude to all of their flight crew, LH and SH.

It's certainly getting worse. I know three 777 pilots who have left the ME3 in the last year, all citing the same reasons. But their complaints are small compared to the short haul pilots I know working there.
 
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:21 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 4):
You should add that it's only the short-haul pilots who get shafted. The long-haul pilots at the ME3 still enjoy a great life.

Please read the PPRUNE forums for the Middle East. The longhaul pilots are not enjoying it either. For the reason, please read the Fragrant Harbour forums. This seems to be an industry issue.
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:46 pm

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 11):
Please read the PPRUNE forums for the Middle East. The longhaul pilots are not enjoying it either. For the reason, please read the Fragrant Harbour forums. This seems to be an industry issue.

But it is down to the pilots to raise their concerns to their employer or local regulator. I can't see how discussing here can add any value.
 
turjo101
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:25 pm

ËK treating its pilots like slaves?!?

A large portion of their pilots are foreign (European, North Americans, Australians), often with a lot of domestic experience. They are working there because they are being paid a competitive salary. Or they would have worked for a different employer. This doesn't address any policy issues causing fatigue, but certainly its a bit far fetch to compare ME3's treatment of their pilots to how their home countries treat unskilled labour from South Asia.

And are we seriously treating an article from a sensationalist entity like RT as a "good report"; as if this was an investigation done by FAA or some other government body.
 
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:29 pm

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 15):
A large portion of their pilots are foreign (European, North Americans, Australians), often with a lot of domestic experience. They are working there because they are being paid a competitive salary.

Indeed, I would imagine the pilots from the US, Europe and Australia are doing several years service, pocketing the tax free cash then decamping back to Blighty, wherever, to buy a nice house and have 2.4 kids.
 
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:47 pm

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 15):
And are we seriously treating an article from a sensationalist entity like RT as a "good report"; as if this was an investigation done by FAA or some other government body.

"Sensational entity"? You mean like every other new station out there? RT is far from the worse of them, and they are fairly credible. I think most people familiar with the various news sources would agree with that. Do you really think that they are fabricating these reports?

Also what do you expect the FAA to do? The event happened in Russia on a plane that belonged to the UAE.
 
Amiga500
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:49 pm

So basically the sooner we replace pilots with autopilots the better? 

Everyone happy with having remote control in emergencies then?  
 
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:24 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 4):
You should add that it's only the short-haul pilots who get shafted. The long-haul pilots at the ME3 still enjoy a great life.

No they did not that is a complete myth.

When UA laid off pilots years ago a lot of those pilots when to work for the ME3 because they were the only ones hiring and they were more than happy to hire pilots from the U.S. However talking to pilots who have returned and most have the work conditions they describe and they way the ME3 are able to manipulate check-in times pre-flight work along with some of the trips they had to work with short rest periods would never be allowed in the U.S. or probably Europe. I personally asked several pilots why come back to United when you were working for EK and flying A380's all over the world and their response was EK treats their passengers great and they take care of their employees but they work you to the point of fatigue because flight crews are not getting enough rest do to their of the schedule.

I can only report second hand information from what I've heard but as far as pilots most that I've talk to found out that working for EK was a lot more difficult than working for UA because they were not getting (or scheduled) to get what many other countries consider proper rest periods in between long haul and ultra long haul flights.
 
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:02 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 4):

You should add that it's only the short-haul pilots who get shafted. The long-haul pilots at the ME3 still enjoy a great life.

Not sure where you get that from, as far as I am aware EK factor their long haul flying so a long haul pilot regularly do 1400 hrs a year (by factoring the bunk time), but under GCAA rules this is "only" 900.

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 12):
But it is down to the pilots to raise their concerns to their employer or local regulator. I can't see how discussing here can add any value.

They do, and pilots do this worldwide. Regulators around the globe are bending to commercial pressures.
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:17 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 24):
So basically the sooner we replace pilots with autopilots the better? 

I think we should just get rid of the free market in airline business. Each country should have a nationalized state run airline that doesn't really have to care about profit or have to face pressure from competitors, then there's no reason to do cost cutting that might compromise safety.

Free market sucks and endangers passengers lives. Sure, it might result in lower ticket prices, but I don't think flying should be that cheap anyway considering its environmental impact.
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winginit
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:17 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 30):
Free market sucks and endangers passengers lives.

Because it would be safer if commercial air travel were fully regulated across the board? I'd love to see anyone try and make that argument.
 
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:28 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
Insurers and re-insurers to these airlines, could also demand well established standards as to staffing times and other sound worker protections to reduce their risks of claims. Destination countries like those in the EU and the USA, could also use their standards and enforce their rules to protect these (and other) airline workers from abuses. The main goal should be the safety of the passengers and crew.

These are factors when setting insurance premiums, but remember the ME3 are attractive, because of their safety track record, fleet age, and cycles (proportion of long haul to short). Some cover, like IATA mandated cover cannot be self-insured.

If there are grey areas in the interpretation of flight crew hours, then first world regulators need to amend the regulations.

First world destination countries are very effective in the maritime industry, responsible for improving hull, accident and employee safety, in conjunction with the insurance industry. Unfortunately, we still see third world to third world operators and vessels, that would not dare send a vessel to a first world country. These operators tend to self-insure.
 
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:29 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 30):
Free market sucks and endangers passengers lives. Sure, it might result in lower ticket prices, but I don't think flying should be that cheap anyway considering its environmental impact.

Well, I always wondered about some of your right wing opinions, but now I am confused? Communism for the world seems be what you are aiming for hear, thank you now! I think history has shown that System to fail dismaly!
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B777LRF
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:31 pm

The problem with some airlines is that they see 'limits' as 'targets'. The FTL rules were never intended to be read like that, but given the ferocity of the commercial pressure airlines operate under, it was more than just a little naive to think it wouldn't.

Airlines have demonstrated time and again safety is nowhere near the top of their priorities, and consequently someone has to be there looking over their shoulders. In some countries that oversight works better than others; in places where the CoTB is also heading the oversight body, well, it doesn't take much fantasy to imagine how that will pan out.
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ual777
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:42 pm

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 15):
A large portion of their pilots are foreign (European, North Americans, Australians), often with a lot of domestic experience. They are working there because they are being paid a competitive salary. Or they would have worked for a different employer. This doesn't address any policy issues causing fatigue, but certainly its a bit far fetch to compare ME3's treatment of their pilots to how their home countries treat unskilled labour from South Asia.

They work there because they can't find a job in their home country. The US pilots have left EK in droves recently. I've heard of punitive action against sick calls too. Trips to the chief pilots office and taking away profit sharing for example.
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AirPacific747
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:37 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 34):
The problem with some airlines is that they see 'limits' as 'targets'.

  

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 34):

Airlines have demonstrated time and again safety is nowhere near the top of their priorities, and consequently someone has to be there looking over their shoulders. In some countries that oversight works better than others; in places where the CoTB is also heading the oversight body, well, it doesn't take much fantasy to imagine how that will pan out.

  

I completely agree with the above statements, having worked for a few airlines now. One common denominator is that they all go right to the limits of the legislation. It's a very sad state of affairs.
 
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:22 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 36):
I completely agree with the above statements, having worked for a few airlines now. One common denominator is that they all go right to the limits of the legislation. It's a very sad state of affairs.

So who's responsibility is this? You can't really blame the airlines for operating within the rules? if the regulations are too lax then surely this is where the attention needs to turn.

The airlines are commercial businesses. They are not there to make industry safety decisions. If that was the case it would be (even more of) a race to the bottom. It is the job of the regulators to set the limits.

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 5):
to bypass regulation that would force them to have the crew layover at the destination, instead they are doing the return flight on the same day with the same crew. Due to the geographical position of Dubai, this affects a lot of destinations and a large share of their schedule.

So you are telling me that a pilot will do a return trip DXB - Uk on a single shift? IIRC under EASA (I get that is not the regulator in force in the UAE) is 12 hours FDP with a minimum rest period after that time of 10 hours meaning that this is not allowed. Is the UAE very different?

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ElPistolero
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:01 pm

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 15):
And are we seriously treating an article from a sensationalist entity like RT as a "good report"; as if this was an investigation done by FAA or some other government body.

It's been picked up by the BBC, which is pretty thorough in its vetting.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35855678

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 3):
This has been a known problem for years now, but has not gained much attention because it was mostly dismissed as hate speech by all the fanboys.

Nobody dismisses it as hate speech. Pilot fatigue issues just aren't that uncommon. Some countries are proactive and some aren't. Google what AC pilots have to say about Canadian regulations, which is to say that this fatigue issue doesn't align neatly with the non-democratic v democratic issue. Their pleas fell on deaf ears for a long time; maybe regulations have changed since the 2011 incident mentioned in the BBC story. The Halifax investigation may shed light on it too.

I've never understood why a universal regime governing issues like this doesn't exist.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 37):
The airlines are commercial businesses. They are not there to make industry safety decisions. If that was the case it would be (even more of) a race to the bottom. It is the job of the regulators to set the limits.

They are, however, expected to act in good faith to the people they serve. I don't think a lack of regulation can justify practices that the airlines know are unsafe. It's not like pilots are unaware of the risk - BBC says this FlyDubai pilot was serving his notice period after quitting due to fatigue.

[Edited 2016-03-24 07:08:33]
 
futureualpilot
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:42 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 37):

So you are telling me that a pilot will do a return trip DXB - Uk on a single shift? IIRC under EASA (I get that is not the regulator in force in the UAE) is 12 hours FDP with a minimum rest period after that time of 10 hours meaning that this is not allowed. Is the UAE very different?

Sandyb123

Rest periods aren't often the issue. The issue for flight crews can become a lack of any rational rhythm in a schedule and few days off with which to truly recover. Trying to switch your body from flying late nights or red eyes to early mornings and back again is asking for trouble. Trying to do it when you only have a day or two off makes that trouble a matter of time.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 37):
So who's responsibility is this? You can't really blame the airlines for operating within the rules? if the regulations are too lax then surely this is where the attention needs to turn.

The airlines are commercial businesses. They are not there to make industry safety decisions. If that was the case it would be (even more of) a race to the bottom. It is the job of the regulators to set the limits.


If safety isn't at the forefront of everyone involved within an airline operation, they have zero business flying the paying public around. We have a saying in aviation, "just because it is legal doesn't mean it is safe."
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ec99
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:19 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 30):
I think we should just get rid of the free market in airline business. Each country should have a nationalized state run airline that doesn't really have to care about profit or have to face pressure from competitors, then there's no reason to do cost cutting that might compromise safety.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_accidents_and_incidents

Already tried that, it didn't work.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:31 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 38):
Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 39):

Exactly. Most airlines in Europe and elsewhere are exploiting the lack of regulation. Just because they can, doesn't mean they should.

And I hate to tell you all, but - in pilot school all students are taught to report unfit for flight whenever they feel the slightest unfit. Reality is that in many airlines these days, pilots are hired only as contractors with very little rights, meaning calling sick maybe only once or twice could mean being fired. And the risk of that is enough to make pilots go to work fearing for their job even though they are unfit. And the EU keeps allowing this employment method largely made popular even in flag carriers after the low cost airlines started doing this.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:34 pm

I'm of the opinion that the current economic woes of China (which impact other nations) has hit EK and FlyDubai profits. Not hiring enough pilots is an easy cost cutting measure.

As the regulator is directed by the same individual who directs the airline... It will be impossible to get to the truth.

#FlyDubaiGate amuses me...

https://www.rt.com/news/337128-emirates-pilots-fatigue-scandal/

I'm a fan of Emurates and FlyDubai's overall business model, but I'm seeing signs of economic stress.

Dubai won't implode, but I think EK and FZ hace become too 'efficient' with pilots. It takes time to adjust to flight times. The A345 at Perth showed a fatigue issue. If it is getting worse...

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tayaramecanici
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:51 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 29):
I'm of the opinion that the current economic woes of China (which impact other nations) has hit EK and FlyDubai profits. Not hiring enough pilots is an easy cost cutting measure.

Basically you are saying the management of EK had based their strategy to buy all those aircrafts on very poor analysis, wherein the clearly evident weakness of chinese economy was completely overlooked. IMO and knowledge, the EK management were aware of this threat in the 90s when they did the initial number crunching i.e. Dxb can only sustain a mid-size airline not this white elephant dreamt by a meglomaniac. It was the person above the chairman and the regulator who directed the airline down this path.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 29):
I'm a fan of Emurates and FlyDubai's overall business model, but I'm seeing signs of economic stress.

Lightsaber, this not a personal attack. With due respect, it was a very Naive biz model with a whole load of infantile fan following. I love the Netflix soap ''House of cards'', great storyline, captivating acting & direction but can never accept that as reality.

The EK & Dubai inc story is just the same ''A house of cards'', great story, shiny planes and tall towers financed by huge debts for countries growing on guess what ''Huge debts'' !

The sad part is the damage from the biz model will affect many individuals and companies for years to come, i will blame them individuals for hanging on to this fiction but the EK management cannot be absolved of this controlled flight into terrain.
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aviationaware
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:41 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 24):
So you are telling me that a pilot will do a return trip DXB - Uk on a single shift?

No, I do not. I never said that, go read what I wrote before you try to dissect it.
 
9w748capt
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:59 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
Agreed. Fatigue rules should be followed, but comparing employees that have some laws and recourse to slaves is wrong. Sadly, slavery still exists in this world. A slave cannot quit nor seek other employment. Nor do they have chance of promotion.

Recourse? What recourse? So when the employer/agent lures you to Dubai and falsely misrepresents the wage you'll make, the conditions you'll live in, then confiscates your passport - oh and if you complain you'll be deported - if not worse - what recourse are you talking about? These are the conditions that thousands of laborers live and die under everyday in the middle east. Recourse? LOL

I find it hilarious that even in the private forums, the pilots comment that "well what will they care, no different than laborers dying on construction sites."

Unbelievable.
 
Ryanair01
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:22 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 17):
I think we should just get rid of the free market in airline business. Each country should have a nationalized state run airline that doesn't really have to care about profit or have to face pressure from competitors, then there's no reason to do cost cutting that might compromise safety.

I wonder if this is one the greatest satirical statements ever made on this board, we are talking about EK after all.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:50 pm

Quoting tayaramecanici (Reply 30):
Basically you are saying the management of EK had based their strategy to buy all those aircrafts on very poor analysis, wherein the clearly evident weakness of chinese economy was completely overlooked.

No. Their analysis for the time was good considering they didn't expect much further access to China. In general, the optimists are correct. What EK/FZ are doing is working *hard* to 'contain costs' due to the 'realities' of the current yield. But the consequences of that cost cutting include pilot fatigue.

The reality is Dubai is walking a financial tightrope. The citystate is dependent upon the profits from EK/FZ as well as the hotels. EK is very 'numbers run' to keep costs in control. I believe they have become too aggressive in pilot scheduling.

EK must grow as if they lose competitive 'economy of scale.' QR and EY have more 'investment opportunity'. The one consolation for the ME3/TK is the growth in India and the GoIs refusal to upgrade fuel taxes and processes to enable international to international connections.

One part of their strategy is to stretch out the current pilot pool. But since so much of EK's flying is 'back of the clock,' it makes the fatigue worse. FlyDubai is keen on high aircraft utilization, without a sufficient pilot pool, that means fatigue:

The 737-800, that is part of the flydubai fleet, has a dispatch reliability rate of 99.77 per cent and flydubai's fleet operates with a daily utilisation rate of about 14 hours - one of the highest of any 737 operators, demonstrating its high reliability rate.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/business...t-was-fully-fit-so-what-went-wrong


This isn't condemnation of EK/FZ, but rather a tuning of their business model. One I think will be driven by insurance costs.

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Airbus747
Topic Author
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:16 am

More revelations...
https://www.rt.com/news/337388-emirates-gcaa-watchdog-oversight/

Never flying EK again - boycott!
 
spacecookie
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:57 pm

RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:44 am

Quoting Airbus747 (Reply 35):

What a hoax!
Please considere the airlines you fly and how they manage their pilots.
It's not only ek trying to make the best of their pilots.

Airline business is hard,many airlines loose money, people want to fly for no money.
 
anjin
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:46 pm

If we look at the recent Qatar airways incident the crew operated doh-mia a flight of say 16 hours a duty a lot more, we know getting through Miami immigration is fun. Next day operate back leaving Miami at 0300 local Doha Time. This means nnot much sleep. The airline says its safe, heavy crew, in flight rest and off the shelf fatigue modelling software to support ttheir case. On the other side tbeir crews say we're not robots this is too much. If we look at European AOC they would have a 48hour rest period for ultra lo ng haul
Enough said
 
spacecookie
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:58 pm

Quoting anjin (Reply 37):

Plane flys itself almost all the time , only take off and landing have to be manually.
And that's they key, nothing happens if nothing strange occurs , if you need the crew 100% the little sleep does not help.
 
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Revelation
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:03 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 21):
The problem with some airlines is that they see 'limits' as 'targets'. The FTL rules were never intended to be read like that, but given the ferocity of the commercial pressure airlines operate under, it was more than just a little naive to think it wouldn't.

From what I'm told, the 'limits' are actually specified as 'minimums' but as you say end up being treated as 'targets'.

The regulators have a hard time. It is hard to write a set of rules that fit all circumstances, if you don't believe me give it a try. The airlines say the rules are too harsh and don't allow them any freedom, so the regulators allow such freedoms then the airlines proceed to abuse those freedoms.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 26):
Rest periods aren't often the issue. The issue for flight crews can become a lack of any rational rhythm in a schedule and few days off with which to truly recover. Trying to switch your body from flying late nights or red eyes to early mornings and back again is asking for trouble. Trying to do it when you only have a day or two off makes that trouble a matter of time.

Indeed, it seems regulations need to be added to add extra time to adapt for switching from nites to days and vice versa.

What are the odds of any such regulations being adopted?
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zeke
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:12 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
From what I'm told, the 'limits' are actually specified as 'minimums' but as you say end up being treated as 'targets'.

What you have been told is wrong, the limits are maximums.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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zkojq
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:33 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
To compare the treatment of pilots and other airline workers by the ME3 as 'slaves' is insulting to the many millions in the world and 1000's in their home countries that are truly enslaved. They are paid but like many workers outside of 1st world countries they do not have labor protections that should be universal.

As I said in the other thread, to managers in the Gulf, expat pilots are barely a rung above filipino maids/cooks/nannies, who we know get abused regularly. They're in the ME to do a job and that's that....their welfare isn't a particularly high priority.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
Insurers and re-insurers to these airlines, could also demand well established standards as to staffing times and other sound worker protections to reduce their risks of claims.

This is an interesting thought. I hope you're right.

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 3):
What has not changed is, however, that it remains a fact. Emirates (and the other ME carriers) are pushing this to the limit and are forcing the more established airlines from countries with better occupational health & safety regulations to follow.

Yes and what's more, the outlawing of unions there makes it hard for the crew to have a voice and to get taken seriously. People who speak up get warnings and are pushed out.

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 3):
This is a dangerous path.

  

Quoting Hywel (Reply 4):
The long-haul pilots at the ME3 still enjoy a great life.

    What? There are a hell of a lot of posts on a certain other forum that would suggest otherwise. A few EX-EK crew I know would strongly disagree.

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 5):
Emirates in particular is known for manipulating the ground (pre/post-flight) portion of the work time in order to bypass regulation that would force them to have the crew layover at the destination, instead they are doing the return flight on the same day with the same crew.

  

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 11):
They are working there because they are being paid a competitive salary.

Except that when you consider inflation and the cost of schooling for kids, it really isn't.

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 12):
Indeed, I would imagine the pilots from the US, Europe and Australia are doing several years service, pocketing the tax free cash then decamping back to Blighty, wherever, to buy a nice house and have 2.4 kids.

That was the case fifteen years ago, certainly not today though. The contracts from the early 2000s were certainly very generous.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 15):
EK treats their passengers great and they take care of their employees

Funnily enough, EK crew have a lower baggage allowance than Y passengers.

Quoting zeke (Reply 16):
Not sure where you get that from, as far as I am aware EK factor their long haul flying so a long haul pilot regularly do 1400 hrs a year (by factoring the bunk time), but under GCAA rules this is "only" 900.

  
As a result of such rules you essentially have EK crew flying ~35-45% more flight hours per month than pilots from QF/LH/SK/BA etc.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 17):
I think we should just get rid of the free market in airline business.

  

Quoting pvjin (Reply 17):
Each country should have a nationalized state run airline that doesn't really have to care about profit or have to face pressure from competitors

QR is supposedly run in just such a manner, yet there are plenty of reports of their crew having fatigue issues and being treated badly.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 21):

The problem with some airlines is that they see 'limits' as 'targets'. The FTL rules were never intended to be read like that, but given the ferocity of the commercial pressure airlines operate under, it was more than just a little naive to think it wouldn't.

  

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 26):
We have a saying in aviation, "just because it is legal doesn't mean it is safe."

Meanwhile EK's chief pilot has a favorite saying 'If you don't like it here, leave'  
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 29):
As the regulator is directed by the same individual who directs the airline... It will be impossible to get to the truth.

Bingo!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 29):
The A345 at Perth showed a fatigue issue. If it is getting worse...

Melbourne...and interestingly enough the report was rejected twice by the GCAA until bits it that referred to fatigue issues at the airline were removed.

Quoting tayaramecanici (Reply 30):
it was a very Naive biz model with a whole load of infantile fan following.

Given that EK has turned a profit every year, it's actually shown to be a very good business model, other than the way that crew are treated (and the decisions that they make as a result of this).

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
The reality is Dubai is walking a financial tightrope. The citystate is dependent upon the profits from EK/FZ as well as the hotels.

True, but the government of Dubai/UAE have spend a lot of money building an actual economy and whilst that has its challenges, it certainly puts them in a better position that Saudi (for example) who instead kept the money in the bank (or doled it out to various members of the Royal Family) and resultantly are fully dependant on oil revenue.

Quoting Airbus747 (Reply 35):

More revelations...
http://www.rt.com/news/337388-emirat...ight/

That's good that they've got lots of crew members speaking out on the matter. Sixty is impressive, but I hope that more come forwards.
First to fly the 787-9
 
Milesdependent
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:30 am

I wonder if we might start to see airlines being required to adopt destination country rules around fatigue and rest. Particularly if we start to see any trend of pilot error crashes from Middle East airlines, which will undoubtedly be attributed to fatigue in light of current events. I could see European countries adopting something like this. It would be a small but good way for EU countries to ensure a more level playing field with ME3 airlines.

EG, flying ultra-long haul to Australia, airlines would have to ensure minimum rest is provided on layover. And that minimum rest might be 48 hours. UA etc already do that, but EK/EY etc often only provide ~24 hours. Maybe even they could require crew members to have broader minimum rest, such as flying only 100 hours per month, in line with local standards.

This would throw a spanner in the works for crew scheduling.
 
tayaramecanici
Posts: 256
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RE: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:22 pm

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 41):
Given that EK has turned a profit every year, it's actually shown to be a very good business model, other than the way that crew are treated (and the decisions that they make as a result of this).

Any airline worth its metal would capitalise its yearly profits by way of listing itself, with an avg acceptable PE of 15x, EK could easily finance its fleet acquisition thru self funding instead of depending on EXIM and SUKUK bonds. The later hard to sell now that Oil has crashed as the arab sheikhs of saudi and kuwait run out of pocket money and EXIM not renewed by Obama admin, resulting in the choice of RR Trent900 funded by UK EXIM Bank.

PWC are notorious for certifying gulf based entities, BCCI anybody. An IPO would bring greater scrutiny of the books, especially with nearly 90% of the fleet leased. SLB is a good means to declare profits as long as the biz is pvt held.

EK and FZ cumulative orders of 2013 was over $100B at list price. The 2016 budget of Dubai was $11B. Do the math on debt.

EK is more of a brand than biz. It is a great flying billboard for dubai to keep Dubai Inc rolling over. Dubai has started levying a pax tax of Dh35, its another decision of Dubai inc, like the starting of FZ, are clear indication of how good the finance are.
''You are as good as your nearest competitor'' Bob Crandall.
 
SCQ83
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Re: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:32 am

What is gonna happen now with today's EK accident.
 
coolian2
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Re: FlyDubai & Emirates Group Pilot Fatigue Leaks

Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:34 am

What a ridiculous bump this is at the moment.
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