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jetmatt777
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High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:49 pm

Some cool crosswind footage shot by a traffic helicopter in OKC.

http://www.facebook.com/kfor4/videos/10153516834591636/

KOKC 232321Z 2400/2424 23030G35KT P6SM FEW150 BKN250
 
cedarjet
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:57 pm

Soundtrack is some kind of new fangled electro music. Bit industrial for me but it's probably been number one in Germany for twelve weeks already.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
as739x
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:59 am

Nice landing by the Expressjet crew. And great angle from the chopper!!
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
N766UA
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:53 am

Everyone is gushing about how amazing the landing was on facebook. Looked like a pretty average crosswind plunker to me.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:21 pm

They do that all the time in DUS...and HKG back in the day...and...
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:34 pm

While it might be a pretty average crosswind landing, it's a pretty cool view from the chopper!
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
bhmdiversion
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:24 pm

This was a Trans States flight, not ExpressJet. AX has taken possession of some EMB-145XR's from ExpressJet.
 
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DFWflightpath
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:43 pm

wish the video included more of the rollout, otherwise great video to show laypeople what goes into a crosswind landing!
 
Okcflyer
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:09 pm

Guests were up to 60mph yesterday. There were roof singles in the parking lot of my apt complex this morning, which is just 3 miles from the airport.
 
C767P
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:19 pm

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 6):
This was a Trans States flight, not ExpressJet.

     

It looks like a pretty bad landing to me, as if they didn’t use any rudder at all. If the winds were what was posted on here, they are not that bad for that little of crosswind correction. Not being an arm chair pilot, I flew the 145...
 
DrStrange
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:21 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 1):

I lol'ed. You mean Dutch, don't you? (as in Gabber)
scnr

 

Apart from that, I agree, it looks like something they regularly do in DUS etc...
 
Okie
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:41 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 2):
Nice landing by the Expressjet crew. And great angle from the chopper!!

Obviously within the cross wind component for the aircraft, although it is a bit unusual that you get to actually see it from the perspective of the news helicopter's camera.

The camera kit on the rotary wing is quite remarkable to me.

Quoting C767P (Reply 9):
It looks like a pretty bad landing to me, as if they didn’t use any rudder at all. If the winds were what was posted on here, they are not that bad for that little of crosswind correction. Not being an arm chair pilot, I flew the 145...

I had watched the video several times before you posted and noticed that did not appear to be any visible deflection of the rudder.


Quoting okcflyer (Reply 8):
Guests were up to 60mph yesterday

That is why I clicked the post in the first place although 23030G35KT indicated quite clam considering other times during the day.

Okie
 
Slcpilot
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:53 pm

Quoting C767P (Reply 9):

     

It looks like a pretty bad landing to me, as if they didn’t use any rudder at all. If the winds were what was posted on here, they are not that bad for that little of crosswind correction. Not being an arm chair pilot, I flew the 145...

While I have not flown the 145, I would concur, it looks like almost no crosswind correction was put in during the flare. Many aircraft obviously have touchdown bank limitations, but a non crabbing touchdown is often possible with effective rudder use in the moment before landing. The ride in the cabin and the sideloads on the gear in the landing were probably significant. That's my 10k hour opinion.

SLCPilot
I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
 
catiii
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:10 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 11):
I had watched the video several times before you posted and noticed that did not appear to be any visible deflection of the rudder.

Maybe I'm seeing things, but it looks like he kicked the rudder a fair bit in the :58 to 1:03 mark.
 
Sooner787
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:14 pm

That would be interesting to look out your A window seat and see the runway centerline
  
 
D L X
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:21 pm

Lens compression rears its head on this site again.

Look at the rollout (what little of it you can see). Remember, those tick marks are 500' apart. Yet, the camera's zoom makes it look like they're maybe 50' apart. The illusion makes the crosswind angle is equally skewed.

I'm no pilot, but I do photography, and this is some pretty extreme lens compression here. Could explain why the pilots didn't use much rudder.
 
airplanenut
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:51 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 13):
Maybe I'm seeing things, but it looks like he kicked the rudder a fair bit in the :58 to 1:03 mark.

That was my thought, too. It doesn't look like significant sustained rudder, but it definitely looks to me like it got kicked in a few times.
Why yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist...
 
jetmatt777
Topic Author
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:53 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):

The wind was approaching the runway approximately 50 degrees from centerline at 35 knots. The angle may be skewed a bit, but not as much as you are implying.
 
D L X
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:28 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 17):
The wind was approaching the runway approximately 50 degrees from centerline at 35 knots.

What angle to the runway do you think the plane's nose is pointed? Certainly not 50 degrees. In actuality, I bet it's closer to 5 degrees. But the camera makes it look like 25-30 degrees, doesn't it?

Real question for the pilots here: in a 35 kt crosswind, how much lateral nose deflection will you see?

Also, if the wind was really at 35 kts when this video was shot, why isn't the helicopter bouncing around? (or is it?)

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 17):
The angle may be skewed a bit, but not as much as you are implying.

That lens is probably zoomed to 1000mm. That will create extreme distortion.

Example of what I'm talking about. Obviously, the woman is the same in each shot.

http://sandbox.disognophoto.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Perspective.jpg
 
C767P
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:47 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 13):
Maybe I'm seeing things, but it looks like he kicked the rudder a fair bit in the :58 to 1:03 mark.

I see the kick you are talking about. The reason I would say there was little rudder input here (or maybe there was a lot, but not enough was used) is the nose of the airplane isn’t lined up with the centerline. You can see when they touch down the plane kicks to the left. If the winds are at 250 at 30 it is my opinion that there is enough rudder to not side load the plane.
 
Okie
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:08 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
Also, if the wind was really at 35 kts when this video was shot, why isn't the helicopter bouncing around? (or is it?)

Why of course it is.
Probably completely impossible shot without gyro stabilization and other gee whiz.

Quite a large appendage mounted on those rotary wing devices to handle the kit to get those pictures.

Precisely the reason for my previous comment that the most remarkable item here is the camera in my opinion.

Okie
 
s5daw
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:24 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
Example of what I'm talking about. Obviously, the woman is the same in each shot.

Photographer is changing the vantage point in these photos, that's the reason for the effect, not the lens.

If you took the first photo from the same point and 24mm lens and crop it to match, you'd get exactly the same photo, only bokeh would be different.
 
jetmatt777
Topic Author
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:25 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
Also, if the wind was really at 35 kts when this video was shot, why isn't the helicopter bouncing around? (or is it?)

The local OKC weather stations use these helicopters extensively for tornado and severe storm tracking. They have very expensive cameras with powerful zoom lenses and very powerful image stabilization. They fly these helicopters within a few miles of a tornado, and zoom in as much as they can. The chopper cameraman isn't holding a Canon SLR out the window. The OKC news stations have spent considerable money on these cameras and they produce very smooth video even when flying within a few miles of a tornado, in a supercell storm formation.
 
bayouflyer
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:17 pm

When was the last time you saw a crosswind approach from this angle ANYWHERE??!!
Landing might have been business as usual but the video rocks out loud!!!   
 
D L X
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:40 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 22):
They have very expensive cameras with powerful zoom lenses and very powerful image stabilization.

Then this also answers my first point, that the camera is zoomed in to the extreme, which distorts the depth of the image. In the case of a crosswind landing, it makes it look like the plane is barely moving, and pointed to the side, while the runway is highly compressed in the z direction.

It's the same issue in the Manchester crosswind videos on youtube.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 21):
Photographer is changing the vantage point in these photos, that's the reason for the effect, not the lens.

No doubt, the Photographer is moving, but the subject and the background are not. But to keep the subject the same size in each of the photographs, he is changing the focal length of the lens. In other words, the lens is the primary reason for the effect.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 21):

If you took the first photo from the same point and 24mm lens and crop it to match, you'd get exactly the same photo,

That's because cropping an image is exactly what a zoom lens does. They are equivalent. But your focus on shooting from the same point is the problem. The video here is shot from probably many miles away with an extreme zoom that in effect, makes everything in the shot visually the same distance. That's an illusion. The plane is flying around 500 feet per second away from the camera near the end of the video, but it looks like it's floating. That's lens compression.

Quoting Okie (Reply 20):
Precisely the reason for my previous comment that the most remarkable item here is the camera in my opinion.

No doubt. The video is beautiful and it is excellent camerawork.

Quoting bayouflyer (Reply 23):
Landing might have been business as usual but the video rocks out loud!!!  

  
 
ACDC8
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:43 am

Is it really that difficult to simply watch a video about something most of us here are passionate about without going into some silly nitpick fest about I know better than you? Sheesh!
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:18 am

You have to be careful in a swept wing airplane.

You can't kick the rudder in until you are at idle and just about to touchdown.

There is no wing-low method in a swept wing airplane...just a quick crab and kick.

And when in doubt, less is more. In other words, you are better off putting in less correction than more correction.

Understand, the most dangerous position to be in in a swept wing airplane is 1) Power idle 2) Nose up 3) Nose increasing in pitch

Sound familiar? It is almost every normal landing.

The rudder is the most powerful flight control on the airplane. Now take what I said above and add kicking the rudder to take out the crab from a cross wind and you can see how the situation can get ugly quickly. Throw in a (usually low time swept wing) regional guy...Less is More.

Frankly, I know guys flying 20+ years that put it right into the ground with minimal rudder. Is it smooth? No. Is it safe? Absolutely.

And if you have a 30 kt gusty crosswind, it is certainly safer to land with a sideload with a little power in (until the last second) than to have you nose in the air, a wing low, and your you-know-what in your hands.

Long story short, dont judge the guy from a chopper video on a.net.
 
DualQual
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:59 am

Quoting C767P (Reply 9):
Quoting Slcpilot (Reply 12):

10K hours and you both pass judgement like the wannabe armchair pilots that rule this forum  
There's no known cure for stupid
 
catiii
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:02 am

Quoting bayouflyer (Reply 23):

When was the last time you saw a crosswind approach from this angle ANYWHERE??!!
Landing might have been business as usual but the video rocks out loud!!!   


Same angular exaggerations here from a video that made the rounds a few years back: http://youtu.be/97UnW-A4FRM

Shot from a helicopter and everything...

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
Long story short, dont judge the guy from a chopper video on a.net.

Amen.
 
Max Q
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:18 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
Everyone is gushing about how amazing the landing was on facebook. Looked like a pretty average crosswind plunker to me.
Quoting C767P (Reply 9):
It looks like a pretty bad landing to me, as if they didn’t use any rudder at all. If the winds were what was posted on here, they are not that bad for that little of crosswind correction. Not being an arm chair pilot, I flew the 145...
Quoting Okie (Reply 11):
I had watched the video several times before you posted and noticed that did not appear to be any visible deflection of the rudder.

Agree, very average, tough conditions but there was little effort to align the aircraft with the runway before touchdown.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
You have to be careful in a swept wing airplane.

You can't kick the rudder in until you are at idle and just about to touchdown.

There is no wing-low method in a swept wing airplane...just a quick crab and kick.

That is complete nonsense, you can put in rudder well prior to touchdown and you
certainly don't have to be at idle.


Wing low can be used in a swept wing aircraft, in fact it is programmed into the autoland
system , many jet transports use this technique, it will limit bank angle to, for example 5 degrees and remove
remaining drift with rudder prior to touchdown.


Even aircraft with outboard pod engines can use a (little) wing down

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
Understand, the most dangerous position to be in in a swept wing airplane is 1) Power idle 2) Nose up 3) Nose increasing in pitch

Again, nonsense.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:37 am

I dont know what or where you fly but defending a wing low method in a swept wing airplane well prior to touchdown should scare the hell out of anyone. Whoa!
 
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Tigerguy
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:36 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 25):
Is it really that difficult to simply watch a video about something most of us here are passionate about without going into some silly nitpick fest about I know better than you?

Hmm...looks like the answer is decidedly "yes". But a.net just wouldn't be a.net without it!   
Good night, and keep watching the skis. Uh, skies.
 
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litz
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:51 pm

And with all that, they plunked it down right on the center, too ... on national TV.
 
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scbriml
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:58 pm

Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweeping down the plane?   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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litz
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:21 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 33):
Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweeping down the plane?

from across the plain, in fact!
 
Slcpilot
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:32 am

RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:37 pm

Quoting DualQual (Reply 27):
Quoting C767P (Reply 9):
Quoting Slcpilot (Reply 12):

10K hours and you both pass judgement like the wannabe armchair pilots that rule this forum

I expressed an opinion, nothing more, nothing less. We all know what they say about opinions.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 30):
I dont know what or where you fly but defending a wing low method in a swept wing airplane well prior to touchdown should scare the hell out of anyone. Whoa!

I don't think anybody here is suggesting a slipping, stabilized, descent, but rather a quick application of rudder, and an appropriate (see aircraft limitations) application of bank in the moment before touchdown. What you describe may work well for a Cub. Furthermore, no professional pilot here is going to suggest techniques counter to company training and aircaft limitations. Aircraft you are typed on may be different.

Quoting litz (Reply 32):
And with all that, they plunked it down right on the center, too ... on national TV.

All of the tires were clear of the centerline. Under training conditions, I don't allow my students to log that as a landing. It creates a mindset the the centerline should ALWAYS be between the mains. Primacy can be a good thing or a bad thing.

SLCPilot
I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:09 pm

[quote=Max Q,reply=29]That is complete nonsense, you can put in rudder well prior to touchdown and you
certainly don't have to be at idle.



He suggested it. I was just responding.

Swept wing airplane = crab and kick. The wing tip stalls first due to higher angle of attack. Yes, you should align the aircraft with the runway to land "straight." But when in doubt, less is more. A quick kick of the rudder and a little aileron correction as the engines come to idle is about all you should safely do in a transport category swept wing jet.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19293
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:56 pm

Quoting litz (Reply 34):
from across the plain, in fact!

That's what I thought, but every online reference I found said it was "down the plain".   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:39 pm

It landed safely. That's all anyone cares about.
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
Max Q
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Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: High Crosswind Landing Video OKC

Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:59 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 36):
Swept wing airplane = crab and kick. The wing tip stalls first due to higher angle of attack. Yes, you should align the aircraft with the runway to land "straight." But when in doubt, less is more. A quick kick of the rudder and a little aileron correction as the engines come to idle is about all you should safely do in a transport category swept wing jet.

First of all if you're 'kicking' anything in an aircraft you should take up another profession.


Using the crab method drift is taken out prior to touchdown by pushing smoothly on the rudder.


Wing down can be used on every swept wing jet transport I have flown as long as you limit
the angle to less than the manufacturer recommends.


As I already mentioned Boeing, Douglas and Lockheed programmed wing down into their
autoland systems.


You'd think they would know.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg

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