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hivue
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:41 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 94):
Waow, reminds me somehow of AF447

Perhaps the conflicting stick inputs in the AF447 accident? The ability to do which, BTW, being claimed by some to be a characteristic and unfortunate byproduct of Airbus design philosophy.
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mandala499
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:45 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 94):
Yoi must remember that the source is RT "News"; not known for any credibility at all. Hopefully, as the investigation continues, we will get more detailed information, rather than a rush-to-judgement.

They did put me on live on this accident... And yes, the way they convey the information they get, is often lost in translation from one person to another...

And someone asked for a chart to the ILS approach previously (either in one of the topics or through PM)... here's for the purpose of the discussion... (note: Loc only approach not authorized!)


[Edited 2016-03-28 12:47:04]
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pvjin
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:27 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 95):
Yoi must remember that the source is RT "News"; not known for any credibility at all. Hopefully, as the investigation continues, we will get more detailed information, rather than a rush-to-judgement.

Russia Today is every bit as credible as its western counterparts, or even more credible when it comes to certain topics. Reporting on aviation crashes and technical details related to them in particular is universally poor in all mainstream media, no matter the country.
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:53 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 102):

RT is financed by the Russian state. As long as interests of the Russian government are not concerned it is fairly reliable, certainly much better than TASS or Pravda used to be.
When technical matters are concerned, almost all media from anywhere have to be taken with a grain of salt. Reporters and presenters are, after all, just that. They know how to report and present, but have very little knowledge in technical matters.
 
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:06 pm

Quote:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 94):
“Wait! Where are you flying? Stop! Stop!” a voice on the recorder reportedly yelled.


Waow, reminds me somehow of AF447 "but I have been pulling all the time!" ... "pulling?"

If only the controls on Boeing aircraft were linked... oh wait.
 
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:21 am

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 103):

Quoting pvjin (Reply 102):RT is financed by the Russian state.

.... and the Western Media (speak corporate world) finances the Western politicians!
Tit for tat; what's the difference?
 
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:38 am

I am concerned about the reported segments allegedly from the CVR. Such info should be withheld until at least the 1st preliminary report, to assure the integrity and quality of the investigation. I bet the premature release of them is more about covering up or deflecting all possible blame from the Russian side, the airport ATC, and shift it to FlyDubai and the pilots.

[Edited 2016-03-28 19:38:55]
 
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:52 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 105):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 102):RT is financed by the Russian state.
.... and the Western Media (speak corporate world) finances the Western politicians!
Tit for tat; what's the difference?

Difference can be enormous. "Free press" has the freedom to print lies, but competing press agencies have the freedom to correct those lies.

In 2013 Russia ranked 148th out of 179 countries in the Press Freedom Index from Reporters Without Borders. In 2015 Freedom House report Russia got score of 83 (100 being the worst). That is well below average.
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:55 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 102):
Russia Today is every bit as credible as its western counterparts, or even more credible when it comes to certain topics

Is it April Fools Day already?   

Wasn't it RT who parroted Mother Russia's claim that MH17 was shot down by a (non-existent) Ukrainian fighter jet? That is crashed because of (non-existent) machine-gun bullets? That there were no Russian soldiers in the Crimea? That there were no Russian soldiers in Ukraine? Need we go on?

Of course, if I remember those topics, you were also parroting those claims... so your position here is no surprise...

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 103):
RT is financed by the Russian state. As long as interests of the Russian government are not concerned it is fairly reliable,

  
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YoungMans
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:02 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 106):
I bet the premature release of them is more about covering up or deflecting all possible blame from the Russian side, the airport ATC, and shift it to FlyDubai and the pilots.

What possible blame is being covered up or deflected by the Russian side?
Can you be more specific on this?

A fair few replies ago, the message as I understood it seemed to be that the airport ATC has no role in such a situation, other than answering requests for information. From what we hear, that was certainly done; as it should be.

So my question is again ....
What could or should the ATC have done that goes beyond specified requirements.
Surely, as it all unfolded, the duty personnel would have monitored that flight by all available means?
Did they have nothing to contribute to assist the pilots?
Or, indeed, were they not allowed to by the rules?
 
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:25 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 106):
I am concerned about the reported segments allegedly from the CVR. Such info should be withheld until at least the 1st preliminary report, to assure the integrity and quality of the investigation.

I don't see how this affects the investigation, which goes on regardless of what happens in news reports or on public forums such as this.
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:07 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 106):

I am concerned about the reported segments allegedly from the CVR. Such info should be withheld until at least the 1st preliminary report, to assure the integrity and quality of the investigation.

The information would only have been released with the permission of the investigators, and probably after they discussed it with the stakeholders, i.e. the airline, the engine manufacturer, air frame manufacturer etc. Releasing the information has nil impact on the investigation, what is important for the investigation is a logged trail from the accident site to the lab that downloaded the data and then to the investigators. As long as that process is solid, you can be confident with the integrity of the data.
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Starlionblue
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:59 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 109):
What could or should the ATC have done that goes beyond specified requirements.
Surely, as it all unfolded, the duty personnel would have monitored that flight by all available means?
Did they have nothing to contribute to assist the pilots?
Or, indeed, were they not allowed to by the rules?

As it all unfolded? AFAIK there was no indication of an emergency until the very end of the flight.

- There was bad weather. Nothing unusual.
- The aircraft entered a hold. Nothing unusual.
- The aircraft went around and came back or another approach. Nothing unusual.

What exactly should ATC have done in the face of nothing unusual?

Of course ATC assists hugely, but unless they know there is an emergency, what more than weather/traffic information and guidance can they provide?

[Edited 2016-03-29 07:01:08]
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:14 pm

As per avherald today, Quote;


On Mar 29th 2016 the MAK condemned all "leaked" information reported by Russian media as false and stated, that no information whatsoever has been leaked from the investigation. About one hour of CVR has been transcribed so far including the crew communication in the final stages of the flight. Mechanical reconstruction as well as preliminary analysis of the flight data recorder so far do not suggest any malfunction of the engines of the aircraft and no failures of aircraft systems or components, the aircraft had all necessary documentation and certificates of airworthiness, passed all required maintenance and was airworthy at the time of departure. The MAK is now undertaking mathematical modelling of the aircraft's flight trajectory in combination with the sounds available on the CVR. The identification of wreckage pieces and mechanical reconstruction of the aircraft continues.
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Silver1SWA
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:14 pm

Let me get this straight... At the top of the thread there was a complaint about the lack of information from the investigation raising suspicion of a cover-up. Now details are emerging and that means there's a possible cover-up?

 
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tb727
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:50 pm

Could it be the pilot saw the field, clicked the autopilot off and went for the runway?
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spacecookie
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 112):

2 hours hold is nothing "unusual?"

go around is nothin "unusual?"

here in europe it IS inusual to make go arounds. ^^
 
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:09 pm

Quoting spacecookie (Reply 116):
here in europe it IS inusual to make go arounds.

Now that's funny.
 
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pvjin
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:11 pm

Quoting spacecookie (Reply 116):
2 hours hold is nothing "unusual?"

go around is nothin "unusual?"

here in europe it IS inusual to make go arounds. ^^

Nothing unusual in Europe either, especially in bad weather.
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spacecookie
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:59 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 117):
Nothing unusual in Europe either, especially in bad weather.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 118):
Nothing unusual in Europe either, especially in bad weather.

would be nice to see some statistics if.
I only can talk as a spotter and avgeek / also on my trips.

And its not that usual for me at least, but well if a i am wrong tell me  
 
lancelot07
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:40 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 114):
Let me get this straight... At the top of the thread there was a complaint about the lack of information from the investigation raising suspicion of a cover-up. Now details are emerging and that means there's a possible cover-up?


Possibility 1: information has been leaked through unofficial sources. Maybe from secretaries or interpreters, but not members of the investigation.
We don't know how reliable the leaked infos are, but we will see. We need patience, as always.

Possibility 2: Anonymous members of the investigation have leaked information unofficially, and other members didn't like the content.
 
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:44 pm

Quoting spacecookie (Reply 119):

Well it's not that I would have encountered one myself either, however in airport operations go arounds for a reason or another are usual business. No idea whether there are statistics about that somewhere.
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:19 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 115):
Could it be the pilot saw the field, clicked the autopilot off and went for the runway?

Say wha?
 
mham001
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:22 pm

Didn't they threaten this once before?

"A Russian government official is calling for regulators in the country to suspend the operation of all 737s from the Boeing Co. According to a report from Sputnik International, the state-owned Izvestia newspaper says that Artyom Kiryanov, a committee chairman of the Russian Civic Chamber, has requested of both the Interstate Aviation Committee (IAC) and Rosaviatsiya (Russia’s Federal Air Transport Agency) that the 737’s airworthiness certificate be revoked in the wake of a fatal crash last week of a flydubai 737-800 at the Rostov-on-Don airport that killed all 62 people aboard." -- Daniel McCoy of the Wichita Business Journal

http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/n...may-consider-grounding-boeing.html
 
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tb727
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:46 pm

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 122):
Say wha?

On the go around, they got the runway in sight, the Captain clicked the autopilot off, the FO said no don't do that and it ended up crashing. I don't know, they did hit the end of the runway. After holding a while and a couple attempted approaches plus fatigue, it is a possibility to make a mistake like that.
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:24 pm

Quoting spacecookie (Reply 116):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 112):

2 hours hold is nothing "unusual?"

go around is nothin "unusual?"

here in europe it IS inusual to make go arounds. ^^

As a percentage of landing attempts, go-arounds are not a big number. However a go-around per se is not an "unusual", as in "makes you go hmmm", occurence. It is not an emergency maneuver and is unlikely to raise eyebrows at ATC.

Long holds happen not infrequently either due to weather and traffic.
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spacecadet
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:31 am

Quoting spacecookie (Reply 116):
go around is nothin "unusual?"

No. It's something pilots train for, practice for and in fact brief for on every flight. Every single landing has a go-around procedure built in.

I don't fly all that much (maybe 2-3 times per year) and I personally have been involved in two go-arounds in the last three years. It's certainly not the preferred outcome because it uses extra fuel and causes delays, but it's not uncommon. At some airports, like LGA in New York, it's actually what you'd probably call "common". Stand at the end of the runway for 15 minutes (I've done this) and you're likely to see 2 or 3 go-arounds in that time. You're almost guaranteed to see at least one. It's certainly nothing that should ever cause an accident.
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YVRLTN
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:45 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 124):
On the go around, they got the runway in sight, the Captain clicked the autopilot off, the FO said no don't do that and it ended up crashing. I don't know, they did hit the end of the runway. After holding a while and a couple attempted approaches plus fatigue, it is a possibility to make a mistake like that.

I was wondering that myself, they did seem to crash pretty close to the runway. If they were spatially disoriented, it seems rather cruel fate to end up so close if they had no idea where they were. Which of course is quite possible seeing as they were on final approach.

I think I saw somewhere else a diagram of the flightpaths of both approaches and crash site on google earth, but I cant find it now - anyone else seen that too and can post it here?
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:12 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 108):
Wasn't it RT who parroted Mother Russia's claim that MH17 was shot down by a (non-existent) Ukrainian fighter jet?

I'd be wary to judge one set of "filter action" by what was reported via the competing set of "filter action".

The initial Russian projection was "Ukrainian military planes not covered by civil ATC present in the vicinity."

Western sources created from that the discrediting "Mother Russia's claim that MH17 was shot down by a (non-existent) Ukrainian fighter jet" every body had a good laugh over.

If you know about the filtering/transformation rules of a news source quite often rather valuable information can be retrieved. I'd advise you to merge CNN and RT and see overlap, "same facts but different viewpoint/interpretation" and the all present propagandistic insertion of fiction.
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:20 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 127):
I think I saw somewhere else a diagram of the flightpaths of both approaches and crash site on google earth, but I cant find it now - anyone else seen that too and can post it here?
Here's the one I put together from the FR24 data.
 
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:37 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 124):
On the go around, they got the runway in sight, the Captain clicked the autopilot off, the FO said no don't do that and it ended up crashing. I don't know, they did hit the end of the runway. After holding a while and a couple attempted approaches plus fatigue, it is a possibility to make a mistake like that.
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 127):
I was wondering that myself, they did seem to crash pretty close to the runway. If they were spatially disoriented, it seems rather cruel fate to end up so close if they had no idea where they were. Which of course is quite possible seeing as they were on final approach.

I'm still not following you guys. Unless something has changed since I last payed attention to this crash, they were on an approach and were executing a missed approach just prior to the crash!! Not in a holding pattern! Its not pure coincidence that it crashed on the runway. They were lined up with it and about to land on it when they decided to go around. So it actually makes perfect sense and would be a somewhat high probability that it could come down on the runway if they crashed while just starting missed approach.
Based on how you guys worded things you make it sound like the aircraft crashed while up in a holding pattern. There is actual video of the aircraft on final approach below the clouds. They then start the missed approach and once again climb into the cloud deck...about 20 seconds later it comes down through the clouds in a almost vertical nose down state and crashed.
 
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:25 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 126):
Stand at the end of the runway for 15 minutes (I've done this) and you're likely to see 2 or 3 go-arounds in that time. You're almost guaranteed to see at least one. It's certainly nothing that should ever cause an accident.

Perhaps a distinction needs to be made between a "failed landing attempt in horrible weather go around" and a "the plane ahead of us didn't get off the runway fast enough go around" ....

The stresses involved in bad weather and a botched landing attempt have to complicate the procedure greatly.
 
ZKCIF
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:32 pm

Quoting spacecookie (Reply 116):
go around is nothin "unusual?"

here in europe it IS inusual to make go arounds. ^^

I mostly fly in Europe and Asia.
I've had 2 go-arounds out of my 246 flights =0.81%.
The sample is small, but it may still give you the idea. No one got surprised by a go-around.
 
CF-CPI
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:14 pm

The Wall Street Journal reported on some of the recent data:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/possible...probe-of-flydubai-crash-1459193950

It's only as good as some of their sources 'familiar with the probe', of course. Their comments do bolster some ideas that have already been suggested - mostly crew coordination during autopilot disengagement during the go-around, leading to a stall.
 
spacecadet
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:40 pm

Quoting litz (Reply 131):
The stresses involved in bad weather and a botched landing attempt have to complicate the procedure greatly.

Why would you assume that? They know the procedure in advance, whatever the weather.

Also, plenty of aircraft take off in bad weather every single day, and that's more or less what a go-around is. You don't see planes falling out of the sky every day because a windy, low-visibility takeoff (or go-around) made things too complicated for the pilots to handle.

This is part of the pattern of these accident discussions, and it's fine but it's almost always where I start chiming in because it's easy for even a layperson to refute. When people start suggesting that perfectly normal, everyday aspects of flight are somehow inherently dangerous, even when these same acts are both practiced and performed on a daily basis by countless other planes and pilots worldwide, that needs to be addressed and dismissed. The cause of this accident wasn't an inherently dangerous thing called a "go-around". Go-arounds are everyday occurrences in all forms of weather.

If the pilots failed to perform the go-around properly, then it's pilot error. It could just as easily have happened on the landing itself, or any other phase of flight. If it was a microburst or something like that during the go-around, then it could also have happened on landing, and the fault is with the airport for not issuing any sort of warning. In any case, the go-around itself has nothing much to do with it.
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Moose135
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:40 am

Quoting litz (Reply 131):
Perhaps a distinction needs to be made between a "failed landing attempt in horrible weather go around" and a "the plane ahead of us didn't get off the runway fast enough go around" ....

The stresses involved in bad weather and a botched landing attempt have to complicate the procedure greatly.

If anything, I might say going missed approach due to weather may be less of an "event" than having the proceeding aircraft not clear in time - if you're coming down the approach in the weather, hoping to break out, you're almost expecting to have to go missed, it's top of mind, where as flying a visual approach on a nice day, you may not be thinking about it. Not that either should be a problem, as you practice missed approaches frequently.
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Starlionblue
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:17 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 134):
This is part of the pattern of these accident discussions, and it's fine but it's almost always where I start chiming in because it's easy for even a layperson to refute. When people start suggesting that perfectly normal, everyday aspects of flight are somehow inherently dangerous, even when these same acts are both practiced and performed on a daily basis by countless other planes and pilots worldwide, that needs to be addressed and dismissed. The cause of this accident wasn't an inherently dangerous thing called a "go-around". Go-arounds are everyday occurrences in all forms of weather.

In addition, go-arounds are regularly practiced as part of proficiency checks. A properly executed go-around is a calm and unhurried procedure in the cockpit.
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YVRLTN
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:48 am

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 130):
I'm still not following you guys. Unless something has changed since I last payed attention to this crash, they were on an approach and were executing a missed approach just prior to the crash!

All I am saying is the consensus seems to be they were spatially disorientated, which implies they did not know where they were, yet they were where they were supposed to be all along. I am just wondering if one of them suddenly realized that and decided to put it down in a hurry thinking they had time and space rather than proceeding with the go around.
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kraz911
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:14 am

Hello all,

I have questions and must admit I haven't gone through all the posts.

1, Have there been stuck/runaway horizontal stabs on 737-800 a/c?
2. Could the tail surfaces have iced over due to some failure in the anti ice system during the long hold over the airport?
3. Why weren't they allowed to divert for safety's sake?

The other pitch down crash in Russia that was on video looked eerily similar IMHO...
 
mandala499
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:19 am

Quoting spacecookie (Reply 116):
2 hours hold is nothing "unusual?"

go around is nothin "unusual?"

here in europe it IS inusual to make go arounds. ^^

What? usual? I guess someone needs to look at more youtube videos when in turbulent or gusty conditions   Try starting with Madeira...  
Quoting tb727 (Reply 124):
On the go around, they got the runway in sight, the Captain clicked the autopilot off, the FO said no don't do that and it ended up crashing. I don't know, they did hit the end of the runway. After holding a while and a couple attempted approaches plus fatigue, it is a possibility to make a mistake like that.

They were climbing at 4000fpm and was above the cloud when they started diving... so unless the pilot was on his feet trying to look down on a go-around, no, I don't think so...
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Starlionblue
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:22 am

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 138):
2. Could the tail surfaces have iced over due to some failure in the anti ice system during the long hold over the airport?

Tail sufaces on airliners typically don't have anti-ice.

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 138):
3. Why weren't they allowed to divert for safety's sake?

The decision to divert is the flight crew's. ATC can't forbid a diversion to a nominated alternate.

Performance and company pressures are another matter.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
golfradio
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:53 am

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 138):
Could the tail surfaces have iced over

If you mean a tailplane stall, it would have happened earlier in the approach phase, not during the go around. From what I understand, a tailplane stall is induced with pitch down attitude and flaps extended. After hitting TO/GA and positive rate of climb, they would have cleaned up the airplane. So I would think unlikely?
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wjcandee
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:23 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 137):
I am just wondering if one of them suddenly realized that and decided to put it down in a hurry thinking they had time and space rather than proceeding with the go around.

No. I don't think so. They were doing a go-around after breaking off the approach. And they were far too high to "put it down". Totally visible on the video.
 
Unflug
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:03 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 84):
I agree with Pihero, that somatogravic illusion is still the "best fit" at the moment.

Haven't seen this article linked:

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...ubai-crash-points-go-around-issues

It's an interesting read, especially regarding somatogravic illusions.

BTW these illusions do not only happen at high speed. If you ask an astronaut in orbit about the position of the earth, the first reply will in most cases be "above me"...
 
hivue
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:43 pm

Quoting Unflug (Reply 143):
BTW these illusions do not only happen at high speed. If you ask an astronaut in orbit about the position of the earth, the first reply will in most cases be "above me"...

Actually, astronauts in orbit are moving at quite high speeds.

Also, somatogravic illusion depends on the person being subject to accelerations. Astronauts in orbit are essentially in free fall.

EDIT to correct spelling.

[Edited 2016-03-31 09:31:57]
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DfwRevolution
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:55 pm

Quoting Unflug (Reply 143):
If you ask an astronaut in orbit about the position of the earth, the first reply will in most cases be "above me"...

That isn't a case of Somatogyral illusion. That's just a matter of reference frame. In your scenario, the astronaut is choosing to answer with respect to the local orientation of the spacecraft deck relative to the Earth orbit. The Space Shuttle, for example, was typically oriented upside-down and backwards with respect to its direction of travel for thermal management reasons.
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packsonflight
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:21 pm

I did not read through all this, so I do not know if it was mentioned. What about all the other inbound traffic to Rostov while Flydubai where holding for two hours, did everybody else land?

According to the ATC communications flight 981 told the radar approach: "for your information in case of go around we are going to climb to 80" which is odd thing to say to radar control, because he did not request clearance to do so, and he did not get any confirmation that this odd intention was approved. Later on when flight 981 is transferred to tower, there is no mentioning of climbing to 80.

Go around procedure for runway 22 dictates to climb to 600m 2000 feet

When flight 981 notifies tower of the go around in the last transmission, again there is no mentioning of climbing to 80 which is 8000 feet and very high for a go around, so what where they planning on doing in case of go around? climb to the standard published altitude of 2000 feet or 8000 feet as they told approach control.

If they simply for some unknown reason dialled in 2000 feet on the MCP panel ( and program the flight director to level off at 2000 feet) but really intended to climb to 8000 feet, they would be in a nasty position climbing at the rate of 4000 fpm approaching 2000 feet, the flight director would capture the 2000 feet altitude, and cut the power to idle but since the autopilot is not engaged the aircraft does not level off because the pilot has its mind set to climb to 8000 feet which is at that point few minutes away.

If they get altitude capture like that and keep 25 degrees nose up with no power for only a few seconds, they could be in unrecoverable position.
 
Mir
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:35 pm

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 138):
2. Could the tail surfaces have iced over due to some failure in the anti ice system during the long hold over the airport?

The 737 has no ice protection on the tail surfaces. This is not unusual in airliners, as thorough testing has shown that the tail surfaces either don't accumulate much ice, or can handle lots of ice without adverse effects.

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 138):
3. Why weren't they allowed to divert for safety's sake?

Did they ask? ATC isn't going to tell an aircraft to divert unless the airport is actually closed. If the aircraft wants to hold for as long as they have fuel for, ATC will let them.

-Mir
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Unflug
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:33 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 145):
That isn't a case of Somatogyral illusion. That's just a matter of reference frame. In your scenario, the astronaut is choosing to answer with respect to the local orientation of the spacecraft deck relative to the Earth orbit. The Space Shuttle, for example, was typically oriented upside-down and backwards with respect to its direction of travel for thermal management reasons.

The interesting finding was that the astronauts also said that the earth was "above" when their feet were clearly pointing towards the earth. Did work on that 30 years ago  
Quoting hivue (Reply 144):
Actually, astronauts in orbit are moving at quite high speeds.

Also, somatogravic illusion depends on the person being subject to accelerations. Astronauts in orbit are essentially in free fall.

I think I wasn't clear enough. A "somatogravic illusion" is a misinterpretation of the information furnished by the vestibular system when dealing with accelerations/decelerations. Such misinterpretations also happen when the body is not accelerating or decelerating. While this is not relevant in the specific case of this accident, it helps to generally understand how the vestibular system works and how these misinterpretations occur. But maybe that's OT...
 
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jumbojim747
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RE: FlyDubai B738 Crashes On Approach In Russia Part 3

Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:39 am

Can i throw a spanner into the works here and call the 737s integraty into question.
There is far too many incidents with the 737 due to rudder malfunctions and the like.
Im not saying this is what caused this crash but it sure boggles the mind.
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