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ADB1
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UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:06 pm

Hi All,

EK019 (A380) has been circling north of MAN for some time according to FR24 I think he's done 2 go-arounds on 23R

Anyone know what's going on?

Thanks,

ADB1
 
asteriskceo
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:11 pm

Weather looks benign. Perhaps a gear issue?
 
oly720man
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:18 pm

Undercarriage problem according to post on manchesterspotters2 forum.
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:23 pm

I heard that its a computer issue. Something about the FMS saying that 23R was too short for landing. Was pretty cool seeing both go arounds. I just happen to be outside at the time.
I'll wake from the dream, To keep and relive, Now life it is a dream, And dream's on a... BREAK!
 
oly720man
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:32 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 3):

Yep that's the latest. Trying 23L then diverting to LHR if that doesn't work.
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asteriskceo
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:34 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 4):

So odd. Aren't they both 10,000 feet?
 
DAL763ER
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:39 pm

Just went around again...
 
321neo
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:40 pm

Third go-around just a few moments ago. To LHR now?
 
asteriskceo
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:40 pm

Quoting 321neo (Reply 7):

Third go-around just a few moments ago. To LHR now?

Looks like he's headed in that direction.
 
DAL763ER
Posts: 531
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:43 pm

Looks like it's diverting. If the computer says the runway is too short when it's clearly not, why not just override the system?
 
sandyb123
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:44 pm

Climbing through 18,000ft heading south so looks like a LHR diversion or perhaps BHX now it can handle the A380?

Is the FMC overridable in instances like this or will it 'refuse' to land!?

Sandyb123

[Edited 2016-03-26 12:45:52]
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David_itl
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:45 pm

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 5):
So odd. Aren't they both 10,000 feet?

23L is a couple of metres longer. Size matters, or rather it would have done had it landed!
 
David_itl
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:48 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 10):
perhaps BHX now it can handle the A380?


It would probably confuse the media if it had to nightstop given the inaugural A380 into BHX tomorrow.
 
oly720man
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:52 pm

The Qatar A350 had an aborted take off when the computer thought the runway was too short not that long ago so it looks like there's something amiss in a calculation or two somewhere in the system.

Edit

Possibly slippery when wet runways.

[Edited 2016-03-26 13:06:40]
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sandyb123
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:55 pm

Quoting david_itl (Reply 12):
It would probably confuse the media if it had to nightstop given the inaugural A380 into BHX tomorrow.

Overflying BHX at 19,000 ft so looks like it is indeed a LHR diversion. Hope the passengers didn't have plans tonight up north!

Sandyb123
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TKA380
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:11 pm

Looked at the EK website, it's showing arrived into LHR at 20:19. It's then departing LHR at 21:15 to arrive at MAN at 22:00.

EK20 on the return delayed 3hrs to 23:55. Let's wait and see if all goes as planned.
 
oly720man
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:15 pm

Quoting TKA380 (Reply 15):

An hour to reboot the computers presumably and get them to behave.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
United1
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:20 pm

Is it landing at LHR or did it just go into another pattern?
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oly720man
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:22 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 17):

Holding pattern to NW of London at the moment.
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TUNisia
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:22 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 17):
Is it landing at LHR or did it just go into another pattern?

Looks like it's holding. All the other flight have made one loop, UAE 19 is making it's 2nd. Id' hate to be a PAX on this flight.
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sandyb123
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:23 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 17):
Is it landing at LHR or did it just go into another pattern?

Looks like it is holding in the Bovingdon stack waiting for a slot into LHR. Busy time of night and not the best weather causing a few ops headaches.

Sandyb123
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United1
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:25 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 20):

Quoting United1 (Reply 17):
Is it landing at LHR or did it just go into another pattern?

Looks like it is holding in the Bovingdon stack waiting for a slot into LHR. Busy time of night and not the best weather causing a few ops headaches.

Thanks....guess they are carrying a lot of fuel.

Looks like they may be headed in now....
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TUNisia
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:25 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 20):
Looks like it is holding in the Bovingdon stack waiting for a slot into LHR. Busy time of night and not the best weather causing a few ops headaches.

Dropping altitude, it looks like it just left the stack.
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
oly720man
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:31 pm

Looks like ATC at LHR have left a big gap behind EK19.
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sandyb123
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:34 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 23):
Looks like ATC at LHR have left a big gap behind EK19.

I'd say that is coincidental as EK19 isn't squawking anything alarming.

On a separate note I am watching this on FR24's 3D tracker which is rather cool!

Sandyb123
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oly720man
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:39 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 24):

My mistake, slotting in a UA flight from the south.

Seems to have landed fine.
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TKA380
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:45 pm

It was flying for over 9hrs, wow! Interested to see if they continue the flight onto MAN - DXB tonight.

Also, unsure if the crew will have had enough rest to do so.

[Edited 2016-03-26 13:46:02]
 
David_itl
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:48 pm

Be a nice hotel bill for EK to pick up if it does stay overnight... assuming all seats sold, 615 passengers to accommodate!

MAN arrivals has
18:35 Dubai EK019 Next information at 21:00 T1
MAN departures
20:30 Dubai EK020 Estimated Sun 27 Mar 00:00

Gather there's just 614 passengers due on EK20.

[Edited 2016-03-26 14:05:44]
 
TKA380
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:29 pm

EK19 departing LHR at 22:00. Arriving MAN at 23:07 and EK20 departing back to Dubai at 02:00.
Long night for EK staff in MAN if goes as planned.
 
ADB1
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:53 pm

Hi All,

Thanks for all the replies.

The A380 is supposed to be leaving LHR shortly and heading back to MAN

I wonder if the stronger headwinds down in the South East tonight were a factor? Flap issues?

ADB1
 
oly720man
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:59 pm

Quoting TKA380 (Reply 28):

Not alive on FR24 yet so 22:00 may be approximate gate time.

Edit

Now appeared (22:10)




[Edited 2016-03-26 15:11:17]

In the air 22:26


[Edited 2016-03-26 15:28:32]

Curious that it's only flying at 12000ft.


[Edited 2016-03-26 15:40:01]
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DAL763ER
Posts: 531
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:43 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 30):
Curious that it's only flying at 12000ft.

Very likely too heavy to go higher efficiently. Just descending through 10000.
 
oly720man
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:54 pm

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 31):

Or didn't need to get higher for a short flight.


Edit

Now landed without incident.

[Edited 2016-03-26 16:00:14]
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Armodeen
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:11 pm

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 31):

Very likely too heavy to go higher efficiently. Just descending through 10000.

The BA shuttle flights between MAN and LHR typically cruise at 18/19k. It's a very short flight.
 
MSNfan
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:41 am

Fresh from AvHerald

http://avherald.com/h?article=495fd1b1&opt=1

Apparently were told by FMS the runways were too short to land on multiple times...kind of an odd reason

[Edited 2016-03-26 19:46:25]
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Scanorama
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:57 am

Is there any reason why the pilots didn't override FMS and land the plane after the first go around? Has the same error occurred in the past?
 
MSNfan
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:07 am

Quoting scanorama (Reply 35):
Is there any reason why the pilots didn't override FMS and land the plane after the first go around? Has the same error occurred in the past?

That is what I was wondering, obviously have no idea about the A380 systems but the headline certainly plays into the narrative of automation getting in the way. Obviously the A380 has landed there before. Crew took it pretty seriously though to execute multiple go arounds and a diversion-maybe it had something to do with conditions on final approach but it kind of seems like it was some sort of glitch...the 4th approach worked!

[Edited 2016-03-26 20:09:29]
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Francoflier
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:33 pm

If what is being reported about the computer is true, is there seriously no way to just land the thing and do the braking oneself?

Surely, the 'brake-to-vacate' (which I presume hosts the runway distance alert) is a secondary system which must be easily overridden...
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Heinkel
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:05 pm

How was the friction coefficient of the runway surface? Did the pilot ask for a friction testing of the runway surface?
Did the airport's friction test vehicle do an actual test on the runway?

AFAIK the pilot of an approching a/c can ask for such a test.

Just runway dry/wet is a little bit too simple.
 
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777GE90
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:20 pm

Quoting scanorama (Reply 35):

Is there any reason why the pilots didn't override FMS and land the plane after the first go around? Has the same error occurred in the past?

If the computer says the runway is too short then why would you override it and try to land anyway? That does not make sense at all. The computers are proven, tested and the chances of them being wrong is highly improbable. To assume they are just wrong and land anyway would be stupid in my opinion.

The plane was probably too heavy to land within the runway length or it was basing it's estimations on the wrong figures (provided by the crew).
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qcpilotxf
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:05 pm

Quoting 777GE90 (Reply 39):

I think in that case, manual calculations might have been a better option than diverting all the way down to LHR. Im sure it was just a bug or you could be correct, the information inputted by the pilots could have been incorrect
 
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777GE90
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:56 pm

Quoting qcpilotxf (Reply 40):
I think in that case, manual calculations might have been a better option than diverting all the way down to LHR. Im sure it was just a bug or you could be correct, the information inputted by the pilots could have been incorrect

Agreed, although I would assume the only reason they didn't go for manual calculations and override it is probably because they really did have too much fuel or because it is too complicated to calculate given all the variables (wind speeds, runway surface conditions, aircraft weight, runway length, autobrake setting, reverse thrust setting etc).

I can't possibly see it being a bug tbh, random bugs like that simply don't occur and if any such bug did exist, it would have most definitely been found years before this and corrected during flight testing / simulation testing. If the aircraft was genuinely wrong in telling the pilots the runway is too short, then the problem is not going to be a bug but because of one or more of the parameters that was inputted by the pilot.

That's my opinion anyway, I thought I'd post as I see so many people coming here accusing the pilots of being scared of getting fired and not overriding the "incorrect" system. It's easy to blame a computer, but I highly doubt that is the problem in this case and they were absolutely correct in not overriding it, unless they had done manual calculations that proved it was wrong.

[Edited 2016-03-27 13:58:46]
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RyanairGuru
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:03 pm

One possibility that hasn't been mentioned is that even if the pilots did want to disregard the computer and calculate their weights manually they could have been overruled by their flight ops/dispatch department. The liability risk would be huge, and if that aircraft put so much as one wheel off the runway then Emirates would be facing the mother of all court cases for disregarding their own safety parameters.
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777GE90
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:13 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 42):

One possibility that hasn't been mentioned is that even if the pilots did want to disregard the computer and calculate their weights manually they could have been overruled by their flight ops/dispatch department. The liability risk would be huge, and if that aircraft put so much as one wheel off the runway then Emirates would be facing the mother of all court cases for disregarding their own safety parameters.

That's a good point, manual calculations in a emergency situation is one thing, but in a non-emergency I guess it's not worth the risk.
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qcpilotxf
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:03 am

Quoting 777GE90 (Reply 43):
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 42):
One possibility that hasn't been mentioned is that even if the pilots did want to disregard the computer and calculate their weights manually they could have been overruled by their flight ops/dispatch department. The liability risk would be huge, and if that aircraft put so much as one wheel off the runway then Emirates would be facing the mother of all court cases for disregarding their own safety parameters.
That's a good point, manual calculations in a emergency situation is one thing, but in a non-emergency I guess it's not worth the risk.

That might be the direction to look at it from this point. Somewhere there was an issue be it numbers, or computers (or both) LHR may have just been a better choice.
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:59 am

A ROW/ROP "Runway too short" message is a mandatory go-around.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:42 am

Quoting 777GE90 (Reply 43):
That's a good point, manual calculations in a emergency situation is one thing, but in a non-emergency I guess it's not worth the risk.
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 42):
The liability risk would be huge, and if that aircraft put so much as one wheel off the runway then Emirates would be facing the mother of all court cases for disregarding their own safety parameters.

This is getting ridiculous.

There are quite a few widebody operators around who still do manual calculations for landing performance. In most cases, landing performance figures are of an advisory nature.

I don't know how ME operators are regulated regarding this. Maybe they've gotten to the point where a landing card is just as much a legal requirement as a take-off card.
Still, I know there is a war being waged against common sense in the business these days. Airlines would rather not pay all the money required to have proficient and well trained pilots, so they slowly remove any sort of decision power from them.
But when you've been operating the airplane a little while, you know exactly how much runway you are going to need for landing depending on the conditions. Especially when you've landed there dozens of times before.
If it was a shorter runway with extreme conditions and little operational background on it, then maybe, but this?

The old Computer-Pilot-Dog joke is becoming a reality, except the dogs are the regulators and operators...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
David_itl
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:33 pm

It's finally made it into the Manchester Evening News. Score 1 for "passengers starting to panic".

Passenger quote: "The pilot came over the PA system and said he thought that the software was giving some incorrect readings.”
 
santi319
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RE: UAE19 Circling North Of MAN

Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:57 pm

Quoting TKA380 (Reply 26):
Also, unsure if the crew will have had enough rest to do so.

Haven't you seen the news lately? Thats not a problem the ME3 have/care

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