klm672
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Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:39 am

Hello,
I guess, looking from the outside, a BTV-BOS route would be a "given". I can recall several airlines have tried this route in the past (DL, US, B6), although sooner or later, all of them have pulled out. I do know there is EAS to nearby PBG with PenAir, but why isn't there a BTV-BOS flight? I just assumed a flight like that would be profitable, but I guess not. I do know there is (was?) a Greyhound bus that goes YUL-BTV-BOS. Lack of connections? Easy enough to drive to (3 hours, I believe).
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:50 am

JetBlue has never flown this. Pretty sure Delta has never flown it, too. There is zero local market, one drives that short a distance.
a.
 
klm672
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:59 am

Could've sworn B6 gave it a shot, but I stand corrected.. Not DL manline, but it looked like ACA did it. I got it off of this trip report: 3/10: ATL-BOS-BTV; 3/14 BTV-CVG-ATL On Delta (by Av8rDAL Mar 15 2004 in Trip Reports)
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:00 am

The airport has been trying to get the service for quite some time. t

The more surprising thing is that there are three rail lines to NYC and zero to Boston from the Burlington Area. Amazing there is no rail link of any type. Greyhound actually offers a pretty reliable service on the route, very good for greyhound. Plattsbugh NYand Rutland VT have the service to BOS and from the other side of the lake its worth a little more. Just not worth the hassle i guesss and Burlington has links to so many more hubs with connection power like ORD, DC, ATL, CLT DTW, JFK all those places have the connection power BOS wouldnt offer anything additional for connections.

Unless a small airline is gonna try the route i dont see it. Only Jetblue of the majors would fly the route but it makes no sense to travel East for connections when JFK is more on the way to almost everywhere people would be flying. Makes sense to keep frequency up on JFK a route which has been flying for a long time. I just dont see anyone doing BOS unless they get some significant money its not needed for connections.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:04 am

What about Cape Air with B6 code of course.
 
texan
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:07 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
JetBlue has never flown this. Pretty sure Delta has never flown it, too. There is zero local market, one drives that short a distance.

And back in the Business Express days, when DL codeshared before AA purchased BEX. DL used to have up to 10-12 daily according to Departed Flights.

Texan
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:22 am

Quoting texan (Reply 5):

used to be a former US Air Express route, too
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bjorn14
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:06 am

In the early 80's, Air Florida used to fly this route with a 737.
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adamh8297
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:37 am

Burlington Metro is only 210K too - which isn't a big base to stimulate from. It has service to many hubs so its not like the folks up there are starving for air service.
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picarus
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:46 am

Quoting texan (Reply 5):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
JetBlue has never flown this. Pretty sure Delta has never flown it, too. There is zero local market, one drives that short a distance.

And back in the Business Express days, when DL codeshared before AA purchased BEX. DL used to have up to 10-12 daily according to Departed Flights.

And way back in the day before deregulation, DL did operate BTV-BOS as a result of its acquisition of Northeast Airlines.
 
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:57 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 3):
The more surprising thing is that there are three rail lines to NYC

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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:33 pm

Quoting picarus (Reply 9):

Beat me too it. This was a long held NE route taken over by DL and operated by mainline into the 80s and then by DL Connection for a long time. Route map thanks to Mayor.


While there are probably a fair number of people traveling between Boston metro and Burlington every day, its a fairly easy 3 1/2 hours and therefore too short a drive to make the plane competitive. So when you add the following three things, you realize why the airlines run traffic through NYC (JFK, LGA and EWR): 1. that NYC has more total traffic, 2. NYC at 5 to 6 hours makes planes actually faster, and 3. NYC offers more direct connecting routings to most of the US and frankly just as easy (plus a ton more options) for international connections. If JetBlue didn't have a JFK hub, you'd see BOS-BTV...but they do and therefore why offer a route that simply duplicates flow over JFK.
 
nkops
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:47 pm

It was also operated by NW Airlink back in the early 90s operated by Northeast Express / Precision Airlines using the Metroliner and Dornier 228
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zrs70
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:17 pm

While it's a 3.5 hour drive in the summer (not on a weekend), in the winter, when it's snowing, the drive can be much, much longer.
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airbazar
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:43 pm

Quoting N717TW (Reply 11):
While there are probably a fair number of people traveling between Boston metro and Burlington every day, its a fairly easy 3 1/2 hours and therefore too short a drive to make the plane competitive.

I do this route fairly often in Summer and Winter and as far as the NE goes it's as easy as it gets. IMO the problem is that the market isn't big enough to offer the frequencies required to make convenient. On top of that not everyone lives and works in Burlington proper or Boston proper. When you factor the flying time, the rental car pick-up and drop-off, the security lines, and the drive to your final destination, you've wasted 2-3 hours of your time easily and you're still depended on someone else's limited schedule to get you from A to B. For only an extra hour's drive you get to sit in your own car and travel at your own convenience. If you have an early appointment you just drive the night before and sleep at a local hotel and it's still likely to be cheaper than a plane ticket.
 
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:54 pm

BOS-BTV was last operated by Business Express (Delta Connection) I think? And yes, DL DC-9's back in the day.

If you go back further, I believe Air New England flew BTV-BOS. And likely Bar Harbor Airlines (later as contract Eastern Express)

I think the route was dropped for the same reason a lot of smaller New England cities have lost their flights to BOS? Little O/D demand, as well as the fact BOS is no longer as an important connecting hub for New England like it was 20+ years ago.


With the introduction of RJ's taking over regional airline routes, planes have longer range to make it from New England cities to hubs in places like ORD, DTW. ATL, CLT, where connections can be made. There's no need to make connections in BOS anymore if you're flying from secondary cities like BTV, BGR, PWM, MHT, ALB, PVD, BDL, etc.

[Edited 2016-03-28 07:11:01]

[Edited 2016-03-28 07:12:18]
 
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:03 pm

Quoting texan (Reply 5):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
JetBlue has never flown this. Pretty sure Delta has never flown it, too. There is zero local market, one drives that short a distance.

And back in the Business Express days, when DL codeshared before AA purchased BEX. DL used to have up to 10-12 daily according to Departed Flights.

Texan

Pre-2000, when AA took over BEX, BEX use to fly from secondary New England cities to BOS about once an hour between 7am-7p.m. And to LGA every other hour. USair Express (Commutair) also flew from these cities to BOS and LGA often throughout the day with Beech 1900's.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:15 pm

For longhaul international connections, BTV is much closer to YUL than to BOS (about 100 miles, less than a 2 hour drive). And with the weak Canadian dollar and avoiding all the US government transborder fees/taxes when you drive, there are additional incentives to drive to YUL.
 
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Quoting picarus (Reply 9):

And way back in the day before deregulation, DL did operate BTV-BOS as a result of its acquisition of Northeast Airlines.

Exactly............in addition, DL didn't pull out of that original service they got from NE, but for another reason. The story goes that the city fathers in Burlington decided to jack up the landing fees, so DL decided to pull out. After DL had made the decision, Burlington saw the error of its ways and the authorities went to ATL to plead their case. They were told they had their chance, before and now it was too late. This was when Dave Garrett was still CEO.
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N1120A
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:09 pm

The issue isn't merely the relatively short distance. The other issue is that BOS doesn't offer the same connectivity that other hub airports offer.

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 13):

While it's a 3.5 hour drive in the summer (not on a weekend), in the winter, when it's snowing, the drive can be much, much longer.
Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):

I do this route fairly often in Summer and Winter and as far as the NE goes it's as easy as it gets.

The roads in Vermont get awful in the winter.
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:58 pm

Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
can recall several airlines have tried this route in the past (DL, US, B6

When did B6 fly it? Assuming they did it was a while ago and I would think they could have more success now with all the increased connections
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:09 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 20):

AFAIK, B6 has never operated BOS-BTV. They did, however, try BTV-Florida in the late 2000's, but the nonstop market wasn't strong enough to keep it going.
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:01 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 20):

When did B6 fly it? Assuming they did it was a while ago and I would think they could have more success now with all the increased connections

B6 has never flown BTV-BOS. There was so much service on this route over the years. I flew the route many times aboard DL DC-9's and B727's. Air New England was also a major operator on the route. Air Florida operated it with 737 aircraft during the early 80's until their shutdown in '84. In addition to Biz Ex, Air North was a big player on the route along with its successors...Brockway, Piedmont Commuter, etc. Precision Airlines and PBA also operated BTV-BOS, later both as Eastern Express. Precision went on to operate as a Northwest Airlink carrier. USAir also operated BTV-BOS during the early 1990's. There was also a commuter carrier called Air Vermont that operated several frequencies per day until they ceased operations during the mid-1980's. I could see Cape Air operating several frequencies per day to connect with B6 at BOS...
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Androol
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:23 pm

Wow things have changed! Back when I flew for CommutAir, just after the changeover from USAirways Express to Continental Connection, there were at least three airlines running that route. In fact we often would depart BOS around the same time an American Eagle Saab and we would race them up to BTV. USAirways also replaced CommutAir with Allegheny Dash 8s. So you had at least American Eagle, Continental Connection and USAirways Express running that route in the early 2000s. My recollection may be bad but I seem to remember ACA running DO-328 jets for Delta on that route as well.
 
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:40 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
For longhaul international connections, BTV is much closer to YUL than to BOS (about 100 miles, less than a 2 hour drive). And with the weak Canadian dollar and avoiding all the US government transborder fees/taxes when you drive, there are additional incentives to drive to YUL.

Do you have any data for Vermont travelers on international flights ex-YUL vs. ex-BOS?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:44 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 24):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
For longhaul international connections, BTV is much closer to YUL than to BOS (about 100 miles, less than a 2 hour drive). And with the weak Canadian dollar and avoiding all the US government transborder fees/taxes when you drive, there are additional incentives to drive to YUL.

Do you have any data for Vermont travelers on international flights ex-YUL vs. ex-BOS?

Unfortunately not. Airports near borders often survey license plates of vehicles in their parking lots to get an idea of cross-border customers.
 
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:21 pm

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 21):
AFAIK, B6 has never operated BOS-BTV. They did, however, try BTV-Florida in the late 2000's, but the nonstop market wasn't strong enough to keep it going.

I worked for B6 at BTV. They never flew to BOS. Delta connection did and before that Commutair did for Continental. When I was there I asked about the possibility of a Cape Air flight and was told the rates to rent space at BTV were far too high to make an operation like Cape Air economic.

B6 did indeed fly BTV-MCO for a few years. Honestly, I believe the launch of service at Plattsburgh did that flight in. Plattsburgh is easier to get to from Montreal and 47% of BTV's volume (at least at the time) was Canadian. The operators at PBG siphoned off enough traffic to make it not worthwhile (at least that is my theory). The flight was canceled after I left, but I heard that while it was generally profitable, the airport could make more deploying the resources elsewhere.

With regard to BOS-BTV, it would be difficult to drive enough yield from passengers flying between the two cities, considering that one can drive the route easily or take Megabus or Greyhound for under $20-$30. It would essentially operate as with only connecting traffic and I am not sure that is economical. I know the airport has tried for many years to get another Boston flight, but I just don't believe the economics work for any carrier who has looked at it.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:28 pm

It's ancient history in airline terms, but Delta did in fact operate BOS-BTV for a while after the Northeast merger.

http://www.departedflights.com/DL030173intro.html
 
RobertS975
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:06 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
Pretty sure Delta has never flown it, too. There is zero local market, one drives that short a distance.

DL Connection flew this route in the 2000s. I know because I took this flight. It was an RJ but not a CRJ. It was a high winged aircraft with engines under the wings in pods. Maybe 36 seats or so.
 
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:09 pm

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 28):
DL Connection flew this route in the 2000s. I know because I took this flight. It was an RJ but not a CRJ. It was a high winged aircraft with engines under the wings in pods. Maybe 36 seats or so.

Dornier 328 Jet.

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meechy36
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:24 pm

Delta flight 732 that crashed in Boston back in 1972 was a scheduled BTV-BOS nonstop that made an unscheduled stop in MHT to pick up some unlucky passengers from a cancelled flight. It was a remnant of the Northeast merger.
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:25 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):

The roads in Vermont get awful in the winter.

Yes, and when that happens and airports like BOS go into ATC delays, a flight like BTV-BOS would often be delayed or canceled.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:45 pm

United EWR-BTV is almost one of the first flights cancelled in bad weather, usually only second to EWR-ALB.
 
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pwm2txlhopper
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:16 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 29):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
Pretty sure Delta has never flown it, too. There is zero local market, one drives that short a distance.

DL Connection flew this route in the 2000s. I know because I took this flight. It was an RJ but not a CRJ. It was a high winged aircraft with engines under the wings in pods. Maybe 36 seats or so.
DL connection, BEX, flew Saab 340s and Beech 1900's on the route. Possibly BAE-146 in mid 1990s. ACA with the Dornier jets came as DL connection around 2002-03 for a couple years.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
The issue isn't merely the relatively short distance. The other issue is that BOS doesn't offer the same connectivity that other hub airports offer.

Good point as well. Back when DL connection flew to BOS, DL was the largest carrier in BOS with flights to most of the Florida cities, Bermuda, their ATL/CVG/DFW/SLC hubs, west coast cities, and a large regional network, etc. there were a lot more connection opportunities. Delta was the biggest player in BOS from the mid 1970s until early 2000s.


USAir also had a large network to connect to in BOS during the 1990s when they also flew regional New England flights. I believe they were actually the dominant carrier for a few years in the 1990s after the surpassed DL in daily flights?



[Edited 2016-03-28 17:32:18]
 
Capt.Fantastic
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:12 am

Quoting picarus (Reply 9):
And way back in the day before deregulation, DL did operate BTV-BOS as a result of its acquisition of Northeast Airlines.

Yes, the route was ORD DTW BOS BTV

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 27):

It's ancient history in airline terms, but Delta did in fact operate BOS-BTV for a while after the Northeast merger.

http://www.departedflights.com/DL030....html

Browsing through this March 1973 Delta schedule, I noticed an interesting route not shown on the route map

Delta flight 690 operated ORD DTW BTV PWM

Delta flying Detroit to Burlington in 1973 seems quite odd
 
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:57 am

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 34):
Browsing through this March 1973 Delta schedule, I noticed an interesting route not shown on the route map

Delta flight 690 operated ORD DTW BTV PWM

Delta flying Detroit to Burlington in 1973 seems quite odd

When I worked at ORD, we had a DC-9-14 or maybe a -32 flight that went LIT-STL-ORD-DTW-CLE-BTV-MHT-PWM-BGR......most of that routing was a remnant of a NE routing. The LIT-STL-ORD was the DL segment.
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klm672
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:04 am

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 24):
Do you have any data for Vermont travelers on international flights ex-YUL vs. ex-BOS?

For what its worth-
My parents and I used to fly out of YUL to Europe to visit family vs out of Burlington. I know the local boarder patrol always used to give us weird looks and ask why we didn't just fly out of Burlington. I have long moved from VT, but my parents do still use YUL. I will sometimes fly direct DFW-YUL to visit family.
 
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:32 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 28):
DL Connection flew this route in the 2000s. I know because I took this flight. It was an RJ but not a CRJ. It was a high winged aircraft with engines under the wings in pods. Maybe 36 seats or so.
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 29):
Dornier 328 Jet.

Yup, I took this route in 2001. On one of the sectors (BTV-BOS I believe) it was just me and one other passenger on the flight!
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:23 pm

I wonder if BTV can get Southwest now. 2-3x to BWI seems perfect. I know they always wanted cities they can serve alot of flights but look at the recent addition of LGB in the move of growth they might want to bring on BTV. It can easily handle a flight to Florida and they can probably boot Allegiant out. Maybe 3x to BWI and 1xMCO that could work ? I would just love to see it happen.

Jetblue is the major player on BTV-Florida via JFK but i still think they can make it happen.
 
B595
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:07 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 38):
I wonder if BTV can get Southwest now. 2-3x to BWI seems perfect. I know they always wanted cities they can serve alot of flights but look at the recent addition of LGB in the move of growth they might want to bring on BTV. It can easily handle a flight to Florida and they can probably boot Allegiant out. Maybe 3x to BWI and 1xMCO that could work ? I would just love to see it happen.

Coincidentally enough, this video from 25 March has an answer to your question. I won't give any spoilers.

Why Southwest isn't flying at Burlington International Airport

Also, on the subject of which airlines flew BTV-BOS, we can add Trans World Express to the mix, operated by Metro Air Northeast, the successor to Brockway Air, with Saab SF340s. (As a side note, it blows me away that there was a time when a glass manufacturer [Brockway Glass] could own and operate an airline as part of its business portfolio. Hard to imagine that happening now.)

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 33):
DL connection, BEX, flew Saab 340s and Beech 1900's on the route. Possibly BAE-146 in mid 1990s.

BizEx definitely flew the RJ70 on BTV-BOS somewhere in that timeframe. I have several pictures of the BizEx RJ70 at BTV in my personal collection.

[Edited 2016-03-31 23:05:23]
 
HVNandrew
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:00 pm

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 28):
DL Connection flew this route in the 2000s. I know because I took this flight. It was an RJ but not a CRJ. It was a high winged aircraft with engines under the wings in pods. Maybe 36 seats or so.
Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 33):
DL connection, BEX, flew Saab 340s and Beech 1900's on the route. Possibly BAE-146 in mid 1990s. ACA with the Dornier jets came as DL connection around 2002-03 for a couple years.

Did DL Connection also fly the route during the short-lived arrangement with Big Sky out of BOS circa 2007-2008? I know they were flying to several small markets for DL out of BOS during that time.
 
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:05 pm

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 40):
Did DL Connection also fly the route during the short-lived arrangement with Big Sky out of BOS circa 2007-2008? I know they were flying to several small markets for DL out of BOS during that time.

I just followed up and checked on this: Big Sky did indeed fly for DL Connection on the BOS-BTV route for part of 2007, using B1900s.
 
ScottB
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RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:56 pm

Quoting B595 (Reply 39):
it blows me away that there was a time when a glass manufacturer [Brockway Glass] could own and operate an airline as part of its business portfolio.

It's not that uncommon -- a paper manufacturer (Kimberly-Clark) owned and operated an airline (Midwest Express) for nearly a decade -- the airline was born out of the parent company's air shuttle operation between its various corporate sites.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
The roads in Vermont get awful in the winter.

But they're awful for a day or two during/after each storm at most, and the major highways like I-89 get cleared very quickly. And we're talking about 20-30 days a year, so how do you make money the other 330 days?

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 15):
I think the route was dropped for the same reason a lot of smaller New England cities have lost their flights to BOS? Little O/D demand, as well as the fact BOS is no longer as an important connecting hub for New England like it was 20+ years ago.

And the O&D air travel demand has dropped in the past 30 years due to roadway improvements and higher speed limits, as well as greater inconvenience at the airport thanks to TSA.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4440
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:58 pm

Amtrak is super popular on Vermont-NYC one would think Vermotn-Boston would also work. The college kids sell out the Ethan Allen Express, Vermonter especially every holiday it seems
 
mjgbtv
Posts: 1018
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:18 am

RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:17 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 43):
Amtrak is super popular on Vermont-NYC one would think Vermotn-Boston would also work.

The problem is that there is nothing even close to a direct route and it doesn't seem likely that there ever will be again. You can argue road vs. air, but I don't think rail is going to be a realistic alternative.
 
B595
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:52 am

RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:21 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 42):
It's not that uncommon -- a paper manufacturer (Kimberly-Clark) owned and operated an airline (Midwest Express) for nearly a decade -- the airline was born out of the parent company's air shuttle operation between its various corporate sites.

Interesting, I would never have guessed that about Midwest Express. Ironically, both Midwest Express and Brockway Air were formed in 1984, if their wiki is accurate. This suggests they were probably a product of the free-for-all following 1978 deregulation. I still have a hard time imagining a paper or glass company or any other consumer products company starting their own airline in present day. Although maybe we'll see Apple or Tesla Airlines some day soon.
 
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knope2001
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:09 pm

Quoting B595 (Reply 45):
uoting ScottB (Reply 42):
It's not that uncommon -- a paper manufacturer (Kimberly-Clark) owned and operated an airline (Midwest Express) for nearly a decade -- the airline was born out of the parent company's air shuttle operation between its various corporate sites.

Interesting, I would never have guessed that about Midwest Express. Ironically, both Midwest Express and Brockway Air were formed in 1984, if their wiki is accurate. This suggests they were probably a product of the free-for-all following 1978 deregulation. I still have a hard time imagining a paper or glass company or any other consumer products company starting their own airline in present day. Although maybe we'll see Apple or Tesla Airlines some day soon.

Another example: Sentry Insurance owned Midstate Airlines for several years, a decent-sized regional airline at the time with a dozen Metros and some F27's.

Often when a business owned a small airline it was seen as an investment to support air travel to their community. Brockway Glass owned Crown Airways for many years, based at DuBois PA just down the road from Brockway. Midstate was based in Sentry's hometown of Stevens Point WI. In both cases the airline existed well ahead of the company buying them. Buying the local commuter airline helped solidify and improve air service to their headquarters.

I don't know what led Brockway Glass to purchase Clinton Aero and then Air North to form Brockway Air -- I'm not aware of anyplace key to the mmanufacturer in northern NY and Vermont. Perhaps it was their success with Crown Air that led them to make the move.

Midwest Express was a little different in that it wasn't Kimberly Clark buying the local commuter (which would have been Air Wisconsin) but instead operating their own in-house air shuttle for many years and morphing it into a scheduled airline with first flights in 1984. Kimberly-Clark spun it off in a 1995 IPO.

These examples...and others I'm probably not remembering or aware of...reflect the period in which they came to pass. Crown and Midstate were small commuters in an era when similar little operations were common across the country and came and went frequently. I'm sure there were other instances of companies investing in or even buying the local commuter to maintain stability.

The early 80's was a time of massive growth and maturing in the commuter/regional industry, with deregulation allowing bigger airlines to dump scores of small markets and commuters buying new-generation regional aircraft to fill the gap. The fast-growing segment attracted attention and dollars from investors, either via stock offerings or direct investment such as Brockway.

The early 80's of course also brought a flock of upstart airlines -- off the top of my head I can't think of any which were outgrowths of existing corporate travel divisions like Midwest Express was. Perhaps there were, though none which lasted anywhere close to that long.

Those particular industry conditions which encouraged airline ownership by non-travel companies are long gone. The one segment I see with potential for a non-travel business to own an airline would be if the small-aircraft-business-market segment succeeds. Some of them may already be backed by unrelated businesses. But of course we'll see if any of them have longer-term staying power.
 
B595
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:52 am

RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:29 pm

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 46):
Those particular industry conditions which encouraged airline ownership by non-travel companies are long gone. The one segment I see with potential for a non-travel business to own an airline would be if the small-aircraft-business-market segment succeeds. Some of them may already be backed by unrelated businesses. But of course we'll see if any of them have longer-term staying power.

Yup, agreed. At least there is some green shoots and churn in the small a/c business market, with things like Linear Air, Cobalt Air, Surf Air all coming on the scene. In fact, I've seen a number of Cobalt Air flights on BTV-BOS. But that market has a long ways to go before it matches the variety and scope of the 70's-80's scheduled commuters. I do admit I miss those commuters, even if most didn't last.
 
FlyBTV
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:01 am

RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:47 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 43):
Amtrak is super popular on Vermont-NYC one would think Vermotn-Boston would also work. The college kids sell out the Ethan Allen Express, Vermonter especially every holiday it seems

Well, now we're getting into my current employer  

I actually work directly with one of those routes, so while I look at a lot of metrics there's not much I can disclose on here that wouldn't be proprietary.

However, in terms of public things that I can share: the reason that you will not see a BTV-BOS train anytime soon is the the rail route linking these destinations no longer exists (at least the New Hampshire portion). Much of the right of way is preserved as rail trails - but there tracks are gone and some large sections of the right of way are also. In short, it would be very expensive to bring service back on that route. Running via Springfield would not be time competitive in the least. It is a federally designated high speed rail corridor (linking Boston with Montreal), but there's no chance that you'd see service for 20 or 30 years, assuming something like that is ever funded. Even if we embarked on a major HSR buildout in this country, Boston-Montreal is not going to be anywhere near the top of the list.

The Ethan Allen will get extended up to BTV by around 2020 at the latest. VT has the funding to bring the tracks up to passenger rail speeds and I believe the work is underway. That may offer a slightly more competitive trip time to NYC, and the Vermonter I think is due for one more speed boost based on some work being completed in Connecticut.

To make a long story short, any way you cut it, you're still talking a 7-8 trip time to NYC by rail, and plenty of people will opt to fly it in an hour. If there was a direct line to BOS, that service would absolutely have potential, but there's not. No one I know in those circles is talking about BTV-BOS rail even being on the table. The extension from RUT to BTV and extending the Vermonter from BTV to Montreal are the two big improvements that are on the table for the next five years or so.
 
texan
Posts: 4070
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: Why Is BTV-BOS Always A Failure?

Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:27 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
The roads in Vermont get awful in the winter.

Never really had a problem on I-89 or the state highways, even in winter. Driving the 1 km from my house to the state highway that led to I-89...well, that was a different story. Nissan Sentras are not good snow plows.

Texan
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