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winginit
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:24 pm

atl100million wrote:
The question still remains whether China Southern will be allowed to operate as a dual codeshare partner for AA and DL and remain in Skyteam


For what must be the fifth time now, this is no longer a question. It is a fact that China Southern can codeshare with both AA and DL while remaining in SkyTeam. Issue settled. The end.
 
atl100million
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:30 pm

winginit wrote:
atl100million wrote:
The question still remains whether China Southern will be allowed to operate as a dual codeshare partner for AA and DL and remain in Skyteam


For what must be the fifth time now, this is no longer a question. It is a fact that China Southern can codeshare with both AA and DL while remaining in SkyTeam. Issue settled. The end.



Until there are published schedules showing CZ on AA flights as well as DL flights, it is not settled. Even then, it is not known unless CZ or DL say so what the cost, if any is, for AA to jointly codeshare on the same flights with DL.

You apparently don't realize that when you self-identify as an AA employee in a highly strategic area of the company, you put yourself and your employer at great risk with the SEC by taking it upon yourself to disseminate AA's corporate strategies.

Even if CZ double codeshares with AA and DL, no one has yet to explain what advantage AA has when DL has CZ and MU as codeshare partners. And you, as a self-identified AA employee with material, non-public information about the LAX-PEK case would do well NOT to answer it.
 
winginit
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:00 pm

atl100million wrote:
winginit wrote:
atl100million wrote:
The question still remains whether China Southern will be allowed to operate as a dual codeshare partner for AA and DL and remain in Skyteam


For what must be the fifth time now, this is no longer a question. It is a fact that China Southern can codeshare with both AA and DL while remaining in SkyTeam. Issue settled. The end.



Until there are published schedules showing CZ on AA flights as well as DL flights, it is not settled. Even then, it is not known unless CZ or DL say so what the cost, if any is, for AA to jointly codeshare on the same flights with DL.

You apparently don't realize that when you self-identify as an AA employee in a highly strategic area of the company, you put yourself and your employer at great risk with the SEC by taking it upon yourself to disseminate AA's corporate strategies.

Even if CZ double codeshares with AA and DL, no one has yet to explain what advantage AA has when DL has CZ and MU as codeshare partners. And you, as a self-identified AA employee with material, non-public information about the LAX-PEK case would do well NOT to answer it.


I'm not an AA employee, and I'd be wildly entertained if you were to point to where I claimed otherwise, so no worries. Thanks for looking out though?
 
nutsaboutplanes
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:13 pm

I hate to see good threads locked because of a poster or two. There is a lot of good information in here and some pretty good debate.

AA just sent a note out to it Premium Customers indicating that LAX-PEK service will in fact begin Nov 5, 2017.
 
wn676
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:06 pm

nutsaboutplanes wrote:
I hate to see good threads locked because of a poster or two. There is a lot of good information in here and some pretty good debate.

AA just sent a note out to it Premium Customers indicating that LAX-PEK service will in fact begin Nov 5, 2017.


The "Add Foe" feature improves the viewing experience of this thread significantly.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:32 pm

I've already made a previous warning to keep the thread on topic. If people can't make respectful comments and debate the topic, then I will have to lock it.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
atl100million
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:38 am

If the issue is simply whether AA has fulfilled the technical steps necessary to start LAX-PEK, it is now clear they have; they have set a date for start of service and have provided slot times to the DOT so there is nothing else to add.

If the issue is the much larger and more complicated issue of the codeshare arrangement which the published report noted, then there is a whole lot left to discuss and the answers have been far less forthcoming. It has never been a debate that Skyteam allows codesharing outside outside of the alliance. DFW-ICN is a class example – DL codeshares on KE’s DFW-ICN flights while KE codeshares on AA’s own flights. AA has its code on no KE flights.

In contrast, DL and CZ each codeshare on well over 100 flights/day on each other which makes it very much a question of how much AA is able to codeshare on CZ and if the reverse is permitted. Further, there are many services that are a part of an alliance and it isn’t clear how much of those can be duplicated for a non-alliance airline. There is nothing wrong with answering “I don’t know but the concerns are valid” in response to questions about the AA-CZ relationship, particularly given that AvWeek says those issues are unresolved or at least not known to them.

And beyond that is the question of the strategic value of what AA is gaining with LAX-PEK and what it will do for the rest of its network. AA clearly only expressed interest in the LAX-PEK route after DL applied and then found out that it had to invest in CZ even to get slots. If the strategic value that AA gains is open for discussion, then it is valid to ask how AA will benefit when DL and UA will presumably still have a much larger codeshare operation – plus other elements of the alliance.

The mechanics of gaining access are answered: AA spent $200 million on a CZ investment and from what we can tell so far, got a good set of slots for PEK out of it. We don’t know what else they are getting because they haven’t confirmed anything and we also don’t know how what they get compares to anything else.

Either it is fair to keep asking those questions even if public questions aren’t known or there is nothing else to discuss. And it is also fair to acknowledge that this case is very different from any other route case in recent US airline history and the commercial relationships that cross alliance lines is precisely why it is interesting.

I for one would like to keep the topic active but also have a common understanding that alot of questions haven't been answered and are very much worth asking.
 
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AAlaxfan
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:00 am

Atl100million:

First I need to say that I am in no way associated with American Airlines, any travel agency or source of any proprietary information regarding the LAX-PEK flights.

With that said, you have raised some valid questions. That being said, no one in this forum can answer those questions. Only AA, CZ and the other principles involved can. They will at the appropriate time. To keep pressuring this forum for answers is simply annoying. We can speculate all we want, but to get the definitive answers you seek, we will have to wait.
 
atl100million
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:49 am

I completely agree that a lot of these questions can't be answered but there are people who seem to think they can; there should be some humility in admitting that repeating "AA won't fail" is a little shallow as well as saying that a general answer about a whole alliance is a sufficient answer for a detailed answer. "I know X but that doesn't necessarily answer your question about Y" is an acceptable answer.
Most of us get that this is a highly unusual case... that is why the thread has sparked so much interest. When people who say they have no connection with AA or those who say they are high value customers question how AA is going to make the route work, those questions should be respected as valid opinions.

There are indeed many, many questions esp. about the codesharing/alliance questions which are not known and which really can make a difference in how much AA really is helped by the CZ relationship.

I have indeed suggested multiple times that its time to quit debating until confirmed information or at least something published is cited - as commavia did today.
 
incitatus
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:43 am

This thread is the gift that keeps giving.

The reality is that LAX-PEK is another big victory for AA. Several posters keep pointing out that AA seems to be struggling in Asia. The reality is entirely different and AA scored MAJOR strategic victories in Asia. We must recall a handful:
Kept JAL close-in after a major advance from Delta trying to get JAL out of OW.
Established codeshare with Korean, a Delta partner.
Successfully grabbed DL's rights between Seattle and Haneda to serve LAX to Haneda.
Purchased a stake in China Southern, a Skyteam member.
Won the right to serve LAX-PEK in a competitive bid.

Evidently AA has had a big presence at LAX for decades. Both UA and AA have been Los Angeles home carriers for a long time. Contrary to what some say, AA is not a new entrant at LAX, neither is it trying to take market share from DL. It is really DL the airline that until a couple of years ago had very little to show at LAX. DL has many challenges at LAX, including going up against two entrenched carriers, and the fact that DL is trying to build another Asian gateway at SEA. The DoT arrived at a sensible decision giving AA LAX-PEK. All three US global carriers will have flights from the West Coast to PEK. Any other decision could not be defended.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:33 am

atl100million wrote:
The mechanics of gaining access are answered: AA spent $200 million on a CZ investment and from what we can tell so far, got a good set of slots for PEK out of it. We don’t know what else they are getting because they haven’t confirmed anything and we also don’t know how what they get compares to anything else.


They get an equity stake in a major carrier in the world's second largest economy.

atl100million wrote:
I for one would like to keep the topic active but also have a common understanding that alot of questions haven't been answered and are very much worth asking.


Maybe if the thread wasn't plagued with massive walls of text that repeat themselves over and over and over then there would be some meaningful discussion.
 
commavia
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:56 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
They get an equity stake in a major carrier in the world's second largest economy.


Indeed. The strategic logic of this deal remains exceedingly obvious. AA has bought its way into the largest airline in the world's second largest economy, and for that price of admission AA got not only an excellent slot pair at PEK for its new LAX-PEK route, but also extensive domestic distribution in China to "nearly 40 destinations beyond Beijing and more than 30 destinations beyond Shanghai," plus - almost certainly - stronger sales support in China and, perhaps most importantly, access to a powerful political advocate in Beijing (which AA has lacked). All of this for $200M.

And when coupled with the fact that AA will shortly be on parity with its closest U.S. rival in terms of frequencies into China, and layered on top of an extensive partnership with Cathay Pacific in HKG, and a closely-integrated JV with JAL in Japan, and perhaps soon another JV with QANTAS in Oceania - it becomes clear that AA has dramatically improved its competitive position across the Pacific in the last decade. LAX-PEK is just the latest in a long line of tactical actions meant to support the broader strategic aim - which is and always has been to have a credible, competitive and compelling transpacific offering for core U.S. customers.
 
atl100million
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:29 pm

commavia wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
They get an equity stake in a major carrier in the world's second largest economy.


Indeed. The strategic logic of this deal remains exceedingly obvious. AA has bought its way into the largest airline in the world's second largest economy, and for that price of admission AA got not only an excellent slot pair at PEK for its new LAX-PEK route, but also extensive domestic distribution in China to "nearly 40 destinations beyond Beijing and more than 30 destinations beyond Shanghai," plus - almost certainly - stronger sales support in China and, perhaps most importantly, access to a powerful political advocate in Beijing (which AA has lacked). All of this for $200M.

And when coupled with the fact that AA will shortly be on parity with its closest U.S. rival in terms of frequencies into China, and layered on top of an extensive partnership with Cathay Pacific in HKG, and a closely-integrated JV with JAL in Japan, and perhaps soon another JV with QANTAS in Oceania - it becomes clear that AA has dramatically improved its competitive position across the Pacific in the last decade. LAX-PEK is just the latest in a long line of tactical actions meant to support the broader strategic aim - which is and always has been to have a credible, competitive and compelling transpacific offering for core U.S. customers.


with all due respect, we have no idea how much codesharing AA and CZ will be allowed to do or if CZ will remain in Skyteam. Until something is published, and even assuming AA and CZ codeshare as much as DL and CZ are today (which is likely dependent on transpacific flight schedules), we have to assume that at best AA will become a dual codeshare partner on the same flights that DL operates while DL ALSO has codeshares with MU. My question is and remains what advantage AA gains when it, based on even what has been suggested here, has a codeshare partnership with a Chinese carrier but DL and UA both have larger ones.

No one is doubting what AA has accomplished across the Pacific. But sit back for a minute and look at what the industry has done including DL which appears to be the carrier you reference. DL did not fly to Australia and does have a JV partner now; AA flies to Australia but does not have a JV partner.

AA and DL both tried to start their own west coast hubs to Asia and both failed. DL merged with NW and started SEA which combined with what DL has in LAX still makes them larger than AA on the west coast. UA by virtue of a 20 year headstart is much larger than AA or DL to Asia. DL as a result of the NW merger is still larger to Asia than AA and that is verifiable by AA's own revenue by geographic region on its annual report.

Instead of touting what anyone has accomplished over the Pacific, the question is "what does AA have for its next act" particularly given that DL says it is going to grow and LAX is a highly contested market to Asia. This route case proves DL intends to grow at LAX. UA has already announced new flights to Asia from LAX.

Congrats to AA for achieving what it has to Asia. Really. UA figured out long before AA and DL that Asia was strategically important and bought Pan Am's Pacific operation. DL merged with NW. AA started its growth spurt to Asia as a result of the megamerger process which left AA as #3 among US airlines to Asia; after this route case, AA is still #3 - a larger #3 but so are DL and UA.

If AA now serves PEK and PVG from LAX, ORD and DFW - the only gateways to Asia it has, are they finished now?

Does it matter if DL and/or UA add more China service in the future?

It is quite ok to say "I don't know" but we all recognize what AA has achieved. The question is "now, what next?"

That question is asked over and over again on a.net regarding many airlines, citiies, and airplanes.
 
uberflieger
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:57 pm

nutsaboutplanes wrote:
AA just sent a note out to it Premium Customers indicating that LAX-PEK service will in fact begin Nov 5, 2017


Great news and testament to Parker & team's shrewd pragmatism. :bigthumbsup:

Let's compare American's investment to its closest competitor in the USA-Mainland China market
Delta: $450 Million in China Eastern (3.55%), China's 2nd largest carrier, a direct LAX-PVG competitor leaving DL to fight on its own against LAX largest airline AA and UA, China's largest, best known USA TPAC brand
American: $200 Million investment in China Southern, China's largest air carrier, immediate access to slots for new LAX-PEK service, a route AA will be the only USA carrier, complementary networks and an investment encouraging China Southern to book away from American's main rival :D

:airplane:
 
sagechan
Posts: 413
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:57 pm

I think its fairly safe to say the announcement stating they will codeshare on around 70 routes combined from PEK and PVG means either 1) its allowed within SkyTeam or 2) CZ is ok with whatever alliance cost is there. My understanding is Skyteam isnt as tight as Star nor as loose as OW on outside the alliance partnerships, so either is a possibility without additional knowledge.

Even with the codeshare AA is unlikely to be anything but 3rd in US-China and US-Asia due to less historical presence and not acquiring substantial rights via mergers and asset purcahses like DL&UA or their predecessor airlines.

AA doesnt need to be the largest, best, or most dominant to Asia or Oceania, but as a global carrier they do need to have a presence in key markets in the area. They are doing it in a rapid and organic way, and any loss making route will be given time to develop and be measured on its total value to the system not just irs individual performance.

So congrats to AA for getting the route it wanted, with good slots and a new partner to reduce its disadvantage in the region.
 
Sydscott
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:11 pm

commavia wrote:
And when coupled with the fact that AA will shortly be on parity with its closest U.S. rival in terms of frequencies into China, and layered on top of an extensive partnership with Cathay Pacific in HKG, and a closely-integrated JV with JAL in Japan, and perhaps soon another JV with QANTAS in Oceania - it becomes clear that AA has dramatically improved its competitive position across the Pacific in the last decade. LAX-PEK is just the latest in a long line of tactical actions meant to support the broader strategic aim - which is and always has been to have a credible, competitive and compelling transpacific offering for core U.S. customers.


It's also the last logical piece of the puzzle in relation to AA's cornerstone strategy, (which I know is old strategy but still apparent in AA decision making), with DFW, ORD and LAX now fully connected into core Transpacific markets on both AA and Partners metal with extensive codeshares in place, or coming, to give further network reach.

sagechan wrote:
AA doesnt need to be the largest, best, or most dominant to Asia or Oceania, but as a global carrier they do need to have a presence in key markets in the area. They are doing it in a rapid and organic way, and any loss making route will be given time to develop and be measured on its total value to the system not just irs individual performance.


Exactly. LAX-PEK is as much a defensive move as it is an offensive one with AA needing to have a West Coast to PEK flight to maintain and attract new Corporate Accounts. So although AA will probably never be UA or DL in Asia, the network they have now allows them to more effectively compete with them than in any time in the past. Now the challenge is to make it work and make it profitable given these building blocks because, ultimately, it's performance that counts.
 
commavia
Topic Author
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:17 pm

sagechan wrote:
I think its fairly safe to say the announcement stating they will codeshare on around 70 routes combined from PEK and PVG means either 1) its allowed within SkyTeam or 2) CZ is ok with whatever alliance cost is there.


Absolutely. AA and China Southern are both massive, sophisticated, multi-billion-dollar corporations with armies of financial and legal professionals. It simply defies logic and belief that these two companies would enter into such a "strategic relationship" - particularly one enabled and precipitated by a cash-for-equity transaction - and not both fully understand and appreciate whatever legal, regulatory or alliance-related contractual processes would have to be followed. That is to say - obviously AA and China Southern know the agreements China Southern has made with SkyTeam and/or bilaterally with other carriers, and still believe that this "strategic relationship," including the codesharing, will go forward.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter what Delta or SkyTeam think. If China Southern and its new partial owner want to codeshare, and the relevant regulatory approvals are granted, it's going to happen.

sagechan wrote:
AA doesnt need to be the largest, best, or most dominant to Asia or Oceania, but as a global carrier they do need to have a presence in key markets in the area. They are doing it in a rapid and organic way, and any loss making route will be given time to develop and be measured on its total value to the system not just irs individual performance.

So congrats to AA for getting the route it wanted, with good slots and a new partner to reduce its disadvantage in the region.


Exactly. United and Delta each spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying a presence in Asia. AA is spending hundreds of millions of dollars building a presence in Asia. In the end, AA is accomplishing precisely the tactical actions that are necessary to support the ultimate objective, which, again, is and always has been to have a credible, competitive and compelling transpacific offering for core U.S. customers. Once Delta has its JV in place, and depending on what happens with MNL and SIN, it seems entirely plausible to me that, net-net, AA and Delta are going to end up in largely the same place across the Pacific, with each having certain particular areas of strength but in general both having very strong networks and very strong partners, and both still being comfortably behind United in the region.

Sydscott wrote:
It's also the last logical piece of the puzzle in relation to AA's cornerstone strategy, (which I know is old strategy but still apparent in AA decision making), with DFW, ORD and LAX now fully connected into core Transpacific markets on both AA and Partners metal with extensive codeshares in place, or coming, to give further network reach.


Absolutely. And, needless to say, it isn't hard to see why AA has zeroed in on those three hubs as the gateways to East Asia - all three are very large demographic and economic centers that not only offer significant connectivity but also generate substantial O&D, and, regarding that connectivity, all three are also perfectly-positioned to compliment each other without much overlap (LAX for the West Coast, DFW for Texas and the South/Southeast, and ORD for the Upper Midwest and Northeast).

Sydscott wrote:
So although AA will probably never be UA or DL in Asia, the network they have now allows them to more effectively compete with them than in any time in the past. Now the challenge is to make it work and make it profitable given these building blocks because, ultimately, it's performance that counts.


:checkmark:
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:26 pm

incitatus wrote:
This thread is the gift that keeps giving.

The reality is that LAX-PEK is another big victory for AA. Several posters keep pointing out that AA seems to be struggling in Asia. The reality is entirely different and AA scored MAJOR strategic victories in Asia. We must recall a handful:
Kept JAL close-in after a major advance from Delta trying to get JAL out of OW.
Established codeshare with Korean, a Delta partner.
Successfully grabbed DL's rights between Seattle and Haneda to serve LAX to Haneda.
Purchased a stake in China Southern, a Skyteam member.
Won the right to serve LAX-PEK in a competitive bid.

Evidently AA has had a big presence at LAX for decades. Both UA and AA have been Los Angeles home carriers for a long time. Contrary to what some say, AA is not a new entrant at LAX, neither is it trying to take market share from DL. It is really DL the airline that until a couple of years ago had very little to show at LAX. DL has many challenges at LAX, including going up against two entrenched carriers, and the fact that DL is trying to build another Asian gateway at SEA. The DoT arrived at a sensible decision giving AA LAX-PEK. All three US global carriers will have flights from the West Coast to PEK. Any other decision could not be defended.



Very nice post very well put. I personally think DL AA and UA can and will exist in the lax market. United Airlines relinquished part of their position years ago and are only now trying to change that. That open the door for American and Delta to grab more marketshare.
 
commavia
Topic Author
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:43 pm

And ... we're done here; DOT out with its decision today:

"We have decided to grant American’s request for an extension of the start-up date from September 16, 2017, to November 5, 2017.

In our March 10, 2017 approval of American’s start-up extension, we said that we when selected American’s Los Angeles-Beijing proposal, we did so because we concluded that American’s proposal would provide greater enhancements to competition and service than selection of Delta and would thereby maximize public benefits. We found no compelling evidence on the record to suggest that American would not fully deliver on its proposal. We recognized that granting an extension of the start up deadline would delay the benefits of American’s service; however, we determined that such a delay, resulting from American’s inability to obtain commercially viable slots from the Chinese authorities, did not warrant the carrier’s loss of authority and the resultant loss of the public benefits that formed the basis of our selection decision."
 
miaami
Posts: 979
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:27 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:47 pm

commavia wrote:
And ... we're done here; DOT out with its decision today:

"We have decided to grant American’s request for an extension of the start-up date from September 16, 2017, to November 5, 2017.

In our March 10, 2017 approval of American’s start-up extension, we said that we when selected American’s Los Angeles-Beijing proposal, we did so because we concluded that American’s proposal would provide greater enhancements to competition and service than selection of Delta and would thereby maximize public benefits. We found no compelling evidence on the record to suggest that American would not fully deliver on its proposal. We recognized that granting an extension of the start up deadline would delay the benefits of American’s service; however, we determined that such a delay, resulting from American’s inability to obtain commercially viable slots from the Chinese authorities, did not warrant the carrier’s loss of authority and the resultant loss of the public benefits that formed the basis of our selection decision."


Great news! I bet they start selling the flight this weekend.
 
jingyue0113
Posts: 7
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:10 am

Maybe a little bit off-topic.

CZ is now rumored to cease all the codesharing with DL from S18.

It seems AA really gains a lot from its $200 million payment.
 
wn676
Posts: 1759
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:01 am

miaami wrote:
commavia wrote:
And ... we're done here; DOT out with its decision today:

"We have decided to grant American’s request for an extension of the start-up date from September 16, 2017, to November 5, 2017.

In our March 10, 2017 approval of American’s start-up extension, we said that we when selected American’s Los Angeles-Beijing proposal, we did so because we concluded that American’s proposal would provide greater enhancements to competition and service than selection of Delta and would thereby maximize public benefits. We found no compelling evidence on the record to suggest that American would not fully deliver on its proposal. We recognized that granting an extension of the start up deadline would delay the benefits of American’s service; however, we determined that such a delay, resulting from American’s inability to obtain commercially viable slots from the Chinese authorities, did not warrant the carrier’s loss of authority and the resultant loss of the public benefits that formed the basis of our selection decision."


Great news! I bet they start selling the flight this weekend.


As of this morning the flight is now for sale. They are operating with a 787-8.
 
commavia
Topic Author
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:10 pm

wn676 wrote:
They are operating with a 787-8.


:checkmark:

The 787 is the ideal aircraft for a market like this where competition is intense, yields will be challenging and AA is at a competitive disadvantage.

Interestingly, the route is currently loaded as a 787-9 beginning 25 March.
 
ahj2000
Posts: 1332
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:34 pm

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:52 pm

commavia wrote:
wn676 wrote:
They are operating with a 787-8.


:checkmark:

The 787 is the ideal aircraft for a market like this where competition is intense, yields will be challenging and AA is at a competitive disadvantage.

Interestingly, the route is currently loaded as a 787-9 beginning 25 March.

Perhaps they believe that they will have a firm foot in The market by then. I'm surprised American doesn't have a high-J 789. Would work well in markets like PEK, TYO, PVG. and could possibly even do SIN with it.
 
theasianguy
Posts: 182
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:31 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:16 pm

Strangly enough, only PEK-LAX is up for sale, while LAX-PEK is still unavailable as of 10:00 CDT.
 
wn676
Posts: 1759
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:19 pm

commavia wrote:
wn676 wrote:
They are operating with a 787-8.


:checkmark:

The 787 is the ideal aircraft for a market like this where competition is intense, yields will be challenging and AA is at a competitive disadvantage.

Interestingly, the route is currently loaded as a 787-9 beginning 25 March.


Good catch, didn't bother to look that far out. Going up against CA's 3x daily, I suppose it makes sense to up the ante a bit with the PY offering.

Edit: also should mention in the broader context of AA isolating fleets in certain hubs, that the upgauge to the 789 also makes sense when you look at how many other routes out of LAX will be on the 789 by then. NRT, HND, SYD, GRU, and PVG. It looks like the aircraft will come from the seasonal end of AKL service on March 22nd.
 
row44seatk
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:37 pm

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:44 pm

Yields? Yes, I realize the money maker is up front however .........
"Just for entertainment" I checked out MIA-PEK departing Dec 1st and returning Dec 15th, Main Cabin. Cheapest fare: $673
Dougie and Co. are certainly investing for the future.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1277
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:44 pm

row44seatk wrote:
Yields? Yes, I realize the money maker is up front however .........
"Just for entertainment" I checked out MIA-PEK departing Dec 1st and returning Dec 15th, Main Cabin. Cheapest fare: $673
Dougie and Co. are certainly investing for the future.


You also chose some of the absolute slowest travel dates of the year on what will be a brand new flight. More telling will be fares once the route is fully established and during non-peak/non-low season flights.
 
atl100million
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 1:28 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:57 pm

commavia wrote:
wn676 wrote:
They are operating with a 787-8.


:checkmark:

The 787 is the ideal aircraft for a market like this where competition is intense, yields will be challenging and AA is at a competitive disadvantage.

Interestingly, the route is currently loaded as a 787-9 beginning 25 March.


AA had no choice but to use the 789 given that it said it would use the 772ER in its application. It can justify to the DOT using a 787-8 for a few months but it has to upgrade eventually.
If the codeshare with CZ ultimately comes online, it should help all of AA's China routes. Most telling will be if AA also upgrades them to larger aircraft from the 787-8.
 
wn676
Posts: 1759
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:58 pm

atl100million wrote:
commavia wrote:
wn676 wrote:
They are operating with a 787-8.


:checkmark:

The 787 is the ideal aircraft for a market like this where competition is intense, yields will be challenging and AA is at a competitive disadvantage.

Interestingly, the route is currently loaded as a 787-9 beginning 25 March.


AA had no choice but to use the 789 given that it said it would use the 772ER in its application. It can justify to the DOT using a 787-8 for a few months but it has to upgrade eventually.


Just like all of their other China frequencies where their applications indicated they would operate the 77E, right?
 
commavia
Topic Author
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:06 pm

wn676 wrote:
Just like all of their other China frequencies where their applications indicated they would operate the 77E, right?


Ha, yeah - exactly. The DOT has imposed no requirements or conditions on AA's LAX-PEK operation with respect to aircraft type.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:39 pm

row44seatk wrote:
Yields? Yes, I realize the money maker is up front however .........
"Just for entertainment" I checked out MIA-PEK departing Dec 1st and returning Dec 15th, Main Cabin. Cheapest fare: $673
Dougie and Co. are certainly investing for the future.


What were you expecting? fares to Asia in general are crazy cheap and have been for awhile.. Part of it I call the A380 effect. If i want to connect through Korea I can go most places dirt cheap and I have.
 
row44seatk
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:37 pm

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:47 am

grbauc wrote:
row44seatk wrote:
Yields? Yes, I realize the money maker is up front however .........
"Just for entertainment" I checked out MIA-PEK departing Dec 1st and returning Dec 15th, Main Cabin. Cheapest fare: $673
Dougie and Co. are certainly investing for the future.


What were you expecting? fares to Asia in general are crazy cheap and have been for awhile.. Part of it I call the A380 effect. If i want to connect through Korea I can go most places dirt cheap and I have.


Looking at Delta - same days, Main Cabin, cheapest fare - $1375
 
nutsaboutplanes
Posts: 545
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:37 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:58 am

For comparison I checked the LAX-PVG non-stops in September. With a 1 week stay over a Saturday departing the 12th and returning the 19th, AA had a fare of 567.00 and Delta at 570.00. They seem comparable. I would imagine that AA will offer intro fares on PEK for a while.
 
Aither
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:43 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:30 am

grbauc wrote:
What were you expecting? fares to Asia in general are crazy cheap and have been for awhile.. Part of it I call the A380 effect. If i want to connect through Korea I can go most places dirt cheap and I have.


It has nothing to do with the A380. It's mostly because of Chinese airlines that are fighting for long haul supremacy between them, with other airlines in the region being collateral victims.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:48 am

row44seatk wrote:
grbauc wrote:
row44seatk wrote:
Yields? Yes, I realize the money maker is up front however .........
"Just for entertainment" I checked out MIA-PEK departing Dec 1st and returning Dec 15th, Main Cabin. Cheapest fare: $673
Dougie and Co. are certainly investing for the future.


What were you expecting? fares to Asia in general are crazy cheap and have been for awhile.. Part of it I call the A380 effect. If i want to connect through Korea I can go most places dirt cheap and I have.


Looking at Delta - same days, Main Cabin, cheapest fare - $1375


One day sample yikes. Let's discuss fares in a year that be a fare amount of time.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:51 am

Aither wrote:
grbauc wrote:
What were you expecting? fares to Asia in general are crazy cheap and have been for awhile.. Part of it I call the A380 effect. If i want to connect through Korea I can go most places dirt cheap and I have.


It has nothing to do with the A380. It's mostly because of Chinese airlines that are fighting for long haul supremacy between them, with other airlines in the region being collateral victims.

The A380 airplane has absolutely lowered J class fares. Korean Airlines to fill their A380s to the US have lots 3k to 4K j class fares. The mainland china Airlines are also flooding the market with their large jumbos.

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