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flyenthu
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Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:15 pm

Hi A. Netters:

I was doing some digging on the aircraft Emirates uses in the Dubai-Kolkata sector. They are all 777s. Two flights operate in this sector: EK 570 and 572. I have data points for a week-12 most recent flights. The average ages of the planes used in the last week in the DXB-CCU route per Flightradar24 (I calculated based on plane registration) are 17.4 and 17.8 years for these two flights. Consistently planes that were 18 or 19 years (some of the oldest in the fleet) were used. Only 3 planes of the 12 were 14 or 15 years old. That got me to thinking about the old age of planes used on a specific route.

This finding led me to checking out where Emirates assigns the oldest of its 777s-the ones delivered between 1997 and 1999. It was quite interesting to see the dominance of Indian cities to where Emirates assigns these very old planes. I was quite taken by surprise. Other than large number of Indian cities, these relics flew to a handful of African cities like Adis Ababa and Abuja, and some cities in the Middle East like Kuwait and Bahrain.

I am wondering why isn't there a mix of older and newer planes assigned to Indian routes by Emirates. Why do they use some of the oldest planes to India?

Any thoughts? Just curious.

Thank you!!

Flyenthu
 
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Ytraveller
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:20 pm

It seems Middle East, Africa, and smaller Indian cities get the older planes. I have regularly seen 777-300 non ER, 777-200, A330 and A340-500 on these routes.
 
migair54
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:00 pm

DAR is also a B773, very old usually, but that's because range is not needed and it's a sea level destination were extra power is not required for take off, for example NBO is shorter flight but It's served by B77W due to elevation. KBL is a short trip but it will be B77W.

The B773, B772, A332 and A340 are basically regional planes, 6 hours or less, but EK swap them many times with other B77W, even sometimes with B77L.
 
lancelot07
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:24 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Thread starter):
Why do they use some of the oldest planes to India?

Low yield traffic probably. Relatively short routes, certainly.
To add a core truth of a.net: Indian Maintenance, maybe ?  
 
flyenthu
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:44 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 3):
Low yield traffic probably. Relatively short routes, certainly.
To add a core truth of a.net: Indian Maintenance, maybe ?

What does low yield have to do with old planes? Can you explain?
Also, Emirates is not an airline of India, so how does Indian maintenance matter?

 
 
lancelot07
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:33 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 4):

old plane = written off => cheap plane  You would not give your best birds to low yield traffic, you give them to your premium customers.
Maintenance: I just could not resist, EK might be afraid Indian MX-Crews could procure some parts for their planes  
 
migair54
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:31 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 5):
old plane = written off => cheap plane  You would not give your best birds to low yield traffic, you give them to your premium customers.

The age of the plane is not as important as the interior quality and product, some very old planes have very nice interiors because they have been refurbished not long ago.

I flew in one delta MD last year and the interior was very nice, even with wi-fi, however some other much newer planes are in much worse condition.
 
flyenthu
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:15 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 6):
The age of the plane is not as important as the interior quality and product, some very old planes have very nice interiors because they have been refurbished not long ago.

Your comment makes sense to me. Unless Emirates is sending dirty old unrefurbished planes to these markets as they know that the routes are popular regardless.

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 5):
old plane = written off => cheap plane  You would not give your best birds to low yield traffic, you give them to your premium customers.

When you say low yield, what do you mean? Number of pax or F or J class pax? The flights to India are high yield in terms of pax and from cities like Delhi, Mumbai, and Bangalore J class yield would be high as well.
 
321neo
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:19 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 2):
The B773, B772, A332 and A340 are basically regional planes, 6 hours or less

Aren't these types all being withdrawn through the end of 2016?
 
migair54
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:38 am

Quoting 321neo (Reply 8):
Aren't these types all being withdrawn through the end of 2016?

Many of them, this year EK has 37 deliveries schedule, 21 A380 and 16 B777, so basically they will replace many of them, specially A340 and A330, but I am not sure if all will go.

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 5):
old plane = written off => cheap plane  You would not give your best birds to low yield traffic, you give them to your premium customers.

Many economy seat are indeed low yield, but planes to India and regional usually are very full in Business, and to many places in Africa too, first week of march I went to Dubai on EK and business was overbook by 3, some lucky guys got upgraded to First, so final was 11 First, 42 business and almost full economy, 4-5 seats left only. Planes was a B773, and It was in perfect condition inside and outside.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 7):
When you say low yield, what do you mean? Number of pax or F or J class pax? The flights to India are high yield in terms of pax and from cities like Delhi, Mumbai, and Bangalore J class yield would be high as well.

Very big part of the business success of EK is because of places like India, Pakistan.. And if they could you'd see plenty of more EK planes in India, including more A380, so it's not such a low yield market.
 
flyenthu
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:44 pm

Migair54, points well taken. I have taken EK from IAH a couple of times, 2011 and 2012, and have experienced nice new 77Ws in the IAH-DXB sector, but really old 332s in the DXB-CCU sector. So, when I heard that EK was getting rid of the old 332s, I thought at last CCU, and other Indian, destinations will see new replacements. But, it looks like replacement is being made on these routes with old 77Ws.

SQ on the other hand flies much newer planes to India. They replaced 772s to CCU with newer 333s. I have flown on 9V-STV, 9V-SSD etc on SIN-CCU route. I love it!

I agree, EK's success has been built to a large extent ferrying pax from the Indian subcontinent. Without their business, it won't be the airline it is.
 
dubaiamman243
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:23 pm

All my recent flights to Amman were operated by the new B77W birds. infact my flight 2 days ago was operated by A6-EPF, one of the newest birds in the fleet. I checked theeksource.net and found out that all destinations in India gets the old and new jets in the fleet except Thiruvananthapuram and Ahmedabad.

[Edited 2016-03-31 15:21:59]
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
flyenthu
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:09 pm

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 11):
all destinations in India gets the old and new jets in the fleet except Thiruvananthapuram.

Check out CCU. It gets the oldest as well. If you check out the where the old 77Ws are assigned, they are primarily in Indian subcontinent, Middle East, and Africa. Sure, some destinations in these regions get newer jets, but why don't any (almost none) of these very old jets assigned to other markets in Asia, Europe, or the US? I have seen old plying 747s from IAH-FRA, then UA's old 747s from SFO to Asian cities. So, long and medium haul routes can be covered by old jets easily.
 
dubaiamman243
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:15 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 12):

I checked again, yeah you are right old B777 jets go to CCU. yesterday 31-3 CCU got a new bird, A6-EPI
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
flyenthu
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:23 pm

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 13):
I checked again, yeah you are right old B777 jets go to CCU. yesterday 31-3 CCU got a new bird, A6-EPI

Good to know!!    
 
321neo
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:34 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 12):
but why don't any (almost none) of these very old jets assigned to other markets in Asia, Europe, or the US?

So aircraft with inferior onboard products will be retained for use on only the shortest routes?

IMHO this situation shall largely cease beginning 2017, since the aircraft scheduled for retirement during 2016 constitute practically all of the oldest aircraft interiors within the EK fleet.
 
dubaiamman243
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:50 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 12):

Glasgow, Dublin, Barcelona, Brussels, Dusseldorf, Lisbon, Lyon for example gets the new birds. I don't know why the new birds don't fly long haul, like for example: GRU, Osaka, Melbourne and Sydney. They usually get the A6-EC? series, which are the older B77W jets
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kq747
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:26 am

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 16):
Glasgow, Dublin, Barcelona, Brussels, Dusseldorf, Lisbon, Lyon for example gets the new birds. I don't know why the new birds don't fly long haul, like for example: GRU, Osaka, Melbourne and Sydney. They usually get the A6-EC? series, which are the older B77W jets


I read somewhere that these 77W's (A6-EC?) are the ULR ones equipped with (extra) fuel tanks for ULR missions. Thus they fly to BOS, ORD, SEA, GRU etc.
 
lancelot07
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:31 am

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 12):
but why don't any (almost none) of these very old jets assigned to other markets in Asia, Europe, or the US?

When (and where) you want to build up the image of a first class airline and spend a lot of money on PR, you can't send old birds. Even when they fly just as good.
Plus, in India they may have less competition. Just look at the jokes a.net-members make about Air India  
 
migair54
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:01 pm

Quoting 321neo (Reply 15):
IMHO this situation shall largely cease beginning 2017, since the aircraft scheduled for retirement during 2016 constitute practically all of the oldest aircraft interiors within the EK fleet.

Most probably, many of them will be retired this year, and many new planes are joining, but I am not sure when, I think after November 2016, but EK is introducing new seats, they just said all new built planes, but no specific date or specific plane delivery, so it will be interesting to see where EK flies the new interiors first.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/tr...inibar-23in-television-screen.html

It is also logical to use the newer planes in longer routes because some of them have some aerodynamical improvements like the raked wingtips to reduce fuel burn, around 2%.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:15 pm

Older equipment is going to go where you don't need to compete with other carriers offering top-shelf equipment. That could be either because the other carriers on the route are flying things like duct-taped, 25-year-old AI A320s, or because you are targeting low-yield economy customers on a given route. You're not going to fly an old 772 with an old product (that won't be refurbished because it's leaving the fleet within months) to a place where you're competing directly with an airline like LH or CX.

Quoting kq747 (Reply 17):
I read somewhere that these 77W's (A6-EC?) are the ULR ones equipped with (extra) fuel tanks for ULR missions.

No 77W has extra fuel tanks (only the 77L). A few of EK's 77Ws are certified at a higher MTOW than the rest, and those are the ones that fly to places like SFO, SEA, DFW.
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:38 pm

Quoting kq747 (Reply 17):

I read somewhere that these 77W's (A6-EC?) are the ULR ones equipped with (extra) fuel tanks for ULR missions. Thus they fly to BOS, ORD, SEA, GRU etc.

AUX tanks are not a customer option on the -300ER.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 20):

No 77W has extra fuel tanks (only the 77L). A few of EK's 77Ws are certified at a higher MTOW than the rest, and those are the ones that fly to places like SFO, SEA, DFW.

5 of EK's 77L's were delivered with 1 AUX tank and the required plumbing. All AUX tanks were removed within a few months as they are not needed. Not even for the new EK448/449 DXB-AKL-DXB.

The vast majority of EK's -300ERs are 340,000kgs MTOW aircraft. All routes over 12hours block time require a crew rest, and thus -300ER's operating on these routes are fitted with the optional aft overhead crew rest. Te first 5 were 349,000kgs MTOW aircraft. The subsequent 31 were purchased with the highest MTOW available 351,543kgs to operate SFO/LAX/GRU.
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kq747
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:13 pm

Thanks for the correction. I read this years ago so was very hazy on what was the "extra" part concerning these airframes...
 
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:43 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 12):

As an FYI this post is incredibly confusing as you are incorrectly referring to the "77W". 77W is 777-300ER, i.e. the new ones. You are referring to 773. It took me a while to figure out what you were saying as you appeared to be directly contradicting yourself.
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ojas
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:04 pm

To begin with, CCU has a seat count restriction like many other do so there are only x number of seats that can be deployed. When the bilaterals were amended a decade ago, the seats assigned were roughly based on the 2 class A332 model which used to seat 278 passengers, and the B777-200ER seats 274 passengers. Hence with slight adjustments the operations were able to increase from 12 weekly to now 13 weekly.

Secondly, airlines cant overnight refurbish all planes by waving a magic wand. It would take years to refurbish the entire fleet and in that endeavour there will be a priority for destinations getting new planes, and CCU in no parameter gets any priority for getting a product upgrade. As much as it is nice to say there has to be a consistent product and all of that, when we ourselves run a business we do not unnecessarily invest money when we know there is not going to be any ROI for that. CCU has more or less been a liability for most airlines into India. AI was forced to operate CCU LHR, ME carriers had access to CCU almost a decade before they actually started operating into it. It is only when the commies were in power back in 2004 to 2009, any negotiations was set with a pre codition to begin operations to CCU. EK fortunately saw some volume feeding into their network and hence upped the operations to a 12 weekly operations which more or less caused the demise of BA and LH over there.

Thirdly, if you are going to draw parallels with QR over here, please note that QR has only started NAG and upgrade of CCU to B787 to cover their seat count and ask for more seats to India. Otherwise a A320Neo is more than sufficient to take care of the traffic ex CCU

Fourthly, CCU is indeed getting upgraded to an all B77W operations somewhere in winter given all the older aircrafts are now due for retirement this financial year.
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BasilFawlty
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RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:28 am

Where an aircraft goes also depends on the cabin configuration. There are various different configurations under the EK 777's:

772:
F12C42Y220

77L:
F8C42Y216

773:
F12C42Y310

77W:
C42Y386
F8C42Y304
F8C42Y310

From the beginning the 77W's are being delivered both with and without first class, so one day you may see one of the older A6-EB* series aircraft to destination XXX, and the next day one of the brand new ones to the same destination.
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BawliBooch
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:33 am

flyenthu wrote:
This finding led me to checking out where Emirates assigns the oldest of its 777s-the ones delivered between 1997 and 1999. It was quite interesting to see the dominance of Indian cities to where Emirates assigns these very old planes. I was quite taken by surprise. Other than large number of Indian cities, these relics flew to a handful of African cities like Adis Ababa and Abuja, and some cities in the Middle East like Kuwait and Bahrain.

Not just EK, but almost every European carrier to India does the same. BA has the worst reputation among all for sending their rattiest aircraft on their India/South Asia routes. SQ and LH are the exceptions to the rule.

Congress MP from Kerala Shashi Tharoor compared it to a modern form of racism - perhaps there is a thread of truth in there somewhere.

I dont fly EK since I found after boarding they had 2-3-2 in business class on a A330. No Thank You! I'd rather "suffer" the 2-2 layout on the upper deck of an Air India 744 via FRA with decent desi-food and genuine Indian hospitality.

I know Air India gets a lot of flak on these forums, but they are a decent option once you have actually boarded the flight - especially in J class. All the shit that happens is on the ground and frankly most of the crap comments you hear are from people who have never actually flown the airline - atleast not recently.

Personally I'd rather connect via-DEL/BOM on an Indian carrier than take that glorified bus terminal called DXB. Ex-HYD I get reasonably timed connections via-DEL with much better service (my opinion) and FF miles which is only slightly more expensive than EK on most days.

Dont put up with racism. Dont fly EK!
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airzona11
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:02 am

For fun the other day I was poking around that other site, the source EK (not sure forum rules so I wont post hyperlink). There is pretty good information in there.

EK in particular seems to get as many miles as they can out of their configurations. Airlines in general bring the older birds closer to home as they age. Makes perfect business sense, older interior is less of a deal on short flights (people not as willing to pay premium). Shorter flights are better for less economic airplanes (cost the airline less).

BawliBooch wrote:

Dont put up with racism. Dont fly EK!


BawliBooch, see above. Unless you are being sarcastic and I missed it.
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:57 am

BasilFawlty wrote:
Where an aircraft goes also depends on the cabin configuration. There are various different configurations under the EK 777's:

772:
F12C42Y220

77L:
F8C42Y216

773:
F12C42Y310

77W:
C42Y386
F8C42Y304
F8C42Y310


From the beginning the 77W's are being delivered both with and without first class, so one day you may see one of the older A6-EB* series aircraft to destination XXX, and the next day one of the brand new ones to the same destination.


and now we can add two new configurations for the B77W:

8F/42J/306Y and 42J/380Y.
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ojas
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Re: RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:43 am

dubaiamman243 wrote:
and now we can add two new configurations for the B77W:

8F/42J/306Y and 42J/380Y.


42J/380Y? which registrations have those?
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AirIndia
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Re: RE: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:13 am

ojas wrote:
dubaiamman243 wrote:
and now we can add two new configurations for the B77W:

8F/42J/306Y and 42J/380Y.


42J/380Y? which registrations have those?


Think hes just mistaken.... two class 77Ws in EK are only 42/386 at the moment.....
 
rebr
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:53 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Not just EK, but almost every European carrier to India does the same.

KLM has flown 787 to DEL (currently 747), BA flies the 787 to HYD, and I'm sure there are other examples. I doubt this has anything to do with airlines deliberately sending their oldest planes to India, but rather "let's use the aircraft we think is most profitable on the route"
 
steve6666
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:29 pm

rebr wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Not just EK, but almost every European carrier to India does the same.

KLM has flown 787 to DEL (currently 747), BA flies the 787 to HYD, and I'm sure there are other examples. I doubt this has anything to do with airlines deliberately sending their oldest planes to India, but rather "let's use the aircraft we think is most profitable on the route"


BA not only flies the 787 to HYD, it also sends its "rattiest" brand new 787-9s to DEL, since getting them has sent its "rattiest" brand new 77Ws to BOM and sends perfectly acceptable 777-200s to other destinations in India. Only in the sense that the B744 has been/is scheduled and the B767 was scheduled to one or two Indian destinations could it be said that the "rattiest" BA planes were scheduled to India - just as they were to a multitude of other destinations right across the network. So the reputation, which may potentially be held, is not based in fact and is therefore, nonsense.
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BawliBooch
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:06 pm

steve6666 wrote:
rebr wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Not just EK, but almost every European carrier to India does the same.

KLM has flown 787 to DEL (currently 747), BA flies the 787 to HYD, and I'm sure there are other examples. I doubt this has anything to do with airlines deliberately sending their oldest planes to India, but rather "let's use the aircraft we think is most profitable on the route"


BA not only flies the 787 to HYD, it also sends its "rattiest" brand new 787-9s to DEL, since getting them has sent its "rattiest" brand new 77Ws to BOM and sends perfectly acceptable 777-200s to other destinations in India. Only in the sense that the B744 has been/is scheduled and the B767 was scheduled to one or two Indian destinations could it be said that the "rattiest" BA planes were scheduled to India - just as they were to a multitude of other destinations right across the network. So the reputation, which may potentially be held, is not based in fact and is therefore, nonsense.


The perceptions are based on historical data that clearly shows a tendency for European airlines to send their oldest aircraft on South Asian routes. The 787/77W are a new phenomena - the 2 times i have taken "Bleddy Awful" it was old 744 and 772's. Years back I remember taking a Northwest DC10 via AMS that was atleast 30 years old!

One or two swallows does not a summer make!

Congress MP from Kerala wrote about this immediately after EK521 crash.

http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/airline-racism-why-use-inferior-aircrafts-indian-routes-tharoor-asks-emirates-47683
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seabosdca
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:11 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
The perceptions are based on historical data that clearly shows a tendency for European airlines to send their oldest aircraft on South Asian routes. The 787/77W are a new phenomena - the 2 times i have taken "Bleddy Awful" it was old 744 and 772's. Years back I remember taking a Northwest DC10 via AMS that was atleast 30 years old!


You do realize that for many years the 744 and 772 were the only aircraft in the BA longhaul fleet, and that for more than a decade the DC-10 was likewise the only aircraft smaller than the 744 in the NW longhaul fleet, right?
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:03 am

seabosdca wrote:
You do realize that for many years the 744 and 772 were the only aircraft in the BA longhaul fleet, and that for more than a decade the DC-10 was likewise the only aircraft smaller than the 744 in the NW longhaul fleet, right?

Yes brother! But years of getting this kind of service has built up perceptions, rightly or wrongly, that European carriers like BA send their rattiest planes to India/S Asia routes. And the perceptions solidify when there is an accident like EK521 involving an older 777 jet.

It will take years to change this perception and that can only happen once we see a real change in scheduling.
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airzona11
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:24 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
You do realize that for many years the 744 and 772 were the only aircraft in the BA longhaul fleet, and that for more than a decade the DC-10 was likewise the only aircraft smaller than the 744 in the NW longhaul fleet, right?

Yes brother! But years of getting this kind of service has built up perceptions, rightly or wrongly, that European carriers like BA send their rattiest planes to India/S Asia routes. And the perceptions solidify when there is an accident like EK521 involving an older 777 jet.

It will take years to change this perception and that can only happen once we see a real change in scheduling.


On A.net it is always fun to think or hope that passengers choose their flights based on aircraft flown, configuration etc. Yet we always come back to the reality that price is the deciding factor. If this were not the case, BA/EK etc would be flying empty planes to and from the region and all the paying passengers would be flying on airlines with sparkling new planes.
 
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:47 pm

End of the day it comes down to the following questions,
1. How many of the 50 million passengers flown on EK really cared about the age of the equipment?
2. How many of them would really feel the oldness or newness of the aircraft?
3. If the age has been noticed,how significant are they affected by being on an old aircraft?

My initial guess is out of 50 million passengers, may be few thousands(including myself).
 
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AI126
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:44 am

airzona11 wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
You do realize that for many years the 744 and 772 were the only aircraft in the BA longhaul fleet, and that for more than a decade the DC-10 was likewise the only aircraft smaller than the 744 in the NW longhaul fleet, right?

Yes brother! But years of getting this kind of service has built up perceptions, rightly or wrongly, that European carriers like BA send their rattiest planes to India/S Asia routes. And the perceptions solidify when there is an accident like EK521 involving an older 777 jet.

It will take years to change this perception and that can only happen once we see a real change in scheduling.


On A.net it is always fun to think or hope that passengers choose their flights based on aircraft flown, configuration etc. Yet we always come back to the reality that price is the deciding factor. If this were not the case, BA/EK etc would be flying empty planes to and from the region and all the paying passengers would be flying on airlines with sparkling new planes.

Be that as it may, there is still a large community of Indian frequent fliers who feel (and refuse to give their money to) that European airlines in particular only send their worst birds to India. My uncle and all his network are exporters for the textiles and auto industries who travel often abroad, and they refuse to fly any European airline because in the 90s and 00s, they claim they were subject shoddy hard and soft product on AF, BA, KL (they especially hated the MD-11 that KL used to send to HYD) and LH. I know it's only anecdotal information, but they still have that impression. Even when I tell them that LH sends their brand new 748s and A380 to BLR, DEL, and BOM; AF sends their 77Ws to DEL and 77Es to BOM and BLR; and BA flies multiple 77Ws and 788/789s to India, they have made that resolution. It's anecdotal information only, I know, but that impression does exist among the Indian business community to an extent. So yes, it will still take a lot of time and conscious effort by the European airlines to get rid of that image for what it's worth.

And I flew EK on the way back from HYD this past weekend, and I must say that there was a marked difference between the hard and soft products on the HYD-DXB leg and the DXB-BOS leg. The food was much better, the seats were much better maintained, and the flight attendants didn't call anyone "that brown fellow" on the second leg; all of which was the opposite on the first leg. And for what it's worth, there were a large number of South Asians on the second leg as well. As such, I have resolved never to fly EK again.

So yeah, maybe the whole "airline racism" this is exaggerated, but having experienced it myself, I can truly say that it does exist. Now, I'm flying AF to India next month via JFK (A380 to CDG) and BOM (77E from CDG), so I'll see if this is the case with AF as well, but my initial guess is that it will be the same based on what my mom told me about her previous trip on AF.
Last edited by AI126 on Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:03 am

AI126 wrote:
So yeah, maybe the whole "airline racism" this is exaggerated, but having experienced it myself, I can truly say that it does exist. Now, I'm flying AF to India next month via JFK (A380 to CDG) and BOM (77E from CDG), so I'll see if this is the case with AF as well, but my initial guess is that it will be the same based on what my mom told me about her previous trip on AF.


Personally think the EK business class product is a rip-off except on the A380. On a 13 hour flight to DFW we got angle-flat seats (maybe that has changed now?). And transitting through DXB is a nightmare.

BA used to be good in the early 2000's. Never faced any racism issues with them per-se (mostly desi cabin crew). But their new J-class with the rear facing seats is not something I can get used to!

Interesting you mention AF - my one and only personal experience with airline racism was when flying AF via CDG. The connecting flight to India got delayed and we went through hell.

Better to stick to Indian carriers AI & 9W. Atleast you know what you are getting into.
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AI126
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:18 am

BawliBooch wrote:
AI126 wrote:
So yeah, maybe the whole "airline racism" this is exaggerated, but having experienced it myself, I can truly say that it does exist. Now, I'm flying AF to India next month via JFK (A380 to CDG) and BOM (77E from CDG), so I'll see if this is the case with AF as well, but my initial guess is that it will be the same based on what my mom told me about her previous trip on AF.


Personally think the EK business class product is a rip-off except on the A380. On a 13 hour flight to DFW we got angle-flat seats (maybe that has changed now?). And transitting through DXB is a nightmare.

BA used to be good in the early 2000's. Never faced any racism issues with them per-se (mostly desi cabin crew). But their new J-class with the rear facing seats is not something I can get used to!

Interesting you mention AF - my one and only personal experience with airline racism was when flying AF via CDG. The connecting flight to India got delayed and we went through hell.

Better to stick to Indian carriers AI & 9W. Atleast you know what you are getting into.


On my trip to and from India this past month, I flew QR to India and EK from India, and honestly (I'm going to be killed for saying this), despite it being my first time with both airlines, I much preferred QR. EK is entirely overrated in my opinion. The only thing good about EK's product is their frequency; everything else is a mess, and just like you said, transiting through DXB is an absolute nightmare. Never again! I had a much better experience with QR and the transit through DOH.

I've actually never flown AF or BA to India; my mom has flown AF and dad BA. Mom told me she hated AF, and dad told me he loved BA lol, so I can't really judge myself. I'm looking forward to trying the AF product, though; I've flown them intra-Europe many times, but it will be my first time with them longhaul. However, given what my mom told me about the product on the CDG-BLR and back legs she flew, I'm not optimistic. At least I finally get to finally fly the A380!! :D

And I totally agree with AI and 9W. I've flown KL, QR, AI, 9W, EK, and LH to/from India, and by far the best experience I had was on AI followed by 9W. Honestly, the hatred and bashing that people show to the product of AI and 9W on this site is entirely unwarranted; both airlines were amazing every single time I flew them and had the best hard and soft products of all the airlines I've ever flown. Be it the nice planes that don't have the seat covers peeling off (literally every single DL 767 I've flown on has had the seats' inner filling pouring out of holes; it's disgusting) or the good food or the friendly and helpful crew, AI and 9W have always given me the best experience flying. I truly think that people who bash them should actually try flying them; they've greatly improved.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:51 am

AI126 wrote:
On my trip to and from India this past month, I flew QR to India and EK from India, and honestly (I'm going to be killed for saying this), despite it being my first time with both airlines, I much preferred QR. EK is entirely overrated in my opinion. The only thing good about EK's product is their frequency; everything else is a mess, and just like you said, transiting through DXB is an absolute nightmare. Never again! I had a much better experience with QR and the transit through DOH.

Agree. QR and EY provide a much more refined experience to & from India. Transitting through DOH/AUH is also much more smoother than DXB.

AI126 wrote:
I've actually never flown AF or BA to India; my mom has flown AF and dad BA. Mom told me she hated AF, and dad told me he loved BA lol, so I can't really judge myself. I'm looking forward to trying the AF product, though; I've flown them intra-Europe many times, but it will be my first time with them longhaul. However, given what my mom told me about the product on the CDG-BLR and back legs she flew, I'm not optimistic. At least I finally get to finally fly the A380!! :D

BA is the one airline that "gets" the Indian market better than most European airlines. Huge potential they have. BA used to be the choice for most of us. Its been on a downhill trend since 2007 or so. Does AF send their A380 to India? :o Thought it was all 77E?

AI126 wrote:
And I totally agree with AI and 9W. I've flown KL, QR, AI, 9W, EK, and LH to/from India, and by far the best experience I had was on AI followed by 9W. Honestly, the hatred and bashing that people show to the product of AI and 9W on this site is entirely unwarranted; both airlines were amazing every single time I flew them and had the best hard and soft products of all the airlines I've ever flown. Be it the nice planes that don't have the seat covers peeling off (literally every single DL 767 I've flown on has had the seats' inner filling pouring out of holes; it's disgusting) or the good food or the friendly and helpful crew, AI and 9W have always given me the best experience flying. I truly think that people who bash them should actually try flying them; they've greatly improved.


Very true. The last time I flew to the US HYD-DEL-ORD, transfer was painless in DEL. They are 2-3-2 in J and was dreading a middle seat on the ORD leg, but managed to get an aisle seat. Great food, unlimited booze and good service. Got upgraded to F on the return upto DEL. Amazing service. If only I could afford to take F every time! :)

Most of the people who bitch & whine about AI have actually never been on an AI aircraft. Atleast not in the recent past.
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:58 am

AI126 wrote:
AI and 9W have always given me the best experience flying. I truly think that people who bash them should actually try flying them; they've greatly improved.


Has AI fixed the sort of practices we saw a few years ago, when there were pictures of 787s less than a year old with row numbers marked in Sharpie and duct-taped ceiling panels? It wasn't confidence-inspiring.

There is also the matter of pilot training. There has been a distressing number of incidents with AI Express. While I recognize that is not AI, it doesn't give confidence. There have been fewer incidents with QR and EK, but some of the ones that have occurred have been quite scary in what they've revealed about the safety culture. The strongest safety records in the Indian international market belong to U.S. and European airlines.
 
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:33 am

seabosdca wrote:
AI126 wrote:
AI and 9W have always given me the best experience flying. I truly think that people who bash them should actually try flying them; they've greatly improved.


Has AI fixed the sort of practices we saw a few years ago, when there were pictures of 787s less than a year old with row numbers marked in Sharpie and duct-taped ceiling panels? It wasn't confidence-inspiring.

There is also the matter of pilot training. There has been a distressing number of incidents with AI Express. While I recognize that is not AI, it doesn't give confidence. There have been fewer incidents with QR and EK, but some of the ones that have occurred have been quite scary in what they've revealed about the safety culture. The strongest safety records in the Indian international market belong to U.S. and European airlines.


To be entirely honest, I've never flown on AI's 787s. I've only flown their 777s, 747s, and A32xs, and the cabin every single time I flew them was absolutely pristine. One of the flight attendants gave me an attitude on my flight on TIR-HYD once, but other than that, I've always had a great experience flying them. Never a complaint ever.

As for safety, I've never had any qualms or anything about that. And even with IX, other than the Mangalore incident a few years ago, which was with a British expatriate pilot at the helm by the way -- NOT an Indian pilot, I have never ever heard of any safety concerns. Honestly, I've been more worried about the state of DL's planes every single time I fly them than I have been on AI's.
 
airzona11
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:41 pm

AI126 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Yes brother! But years of getting this kind of service has built up perceptions, rightly or wrongly, that European carriers like BA send their rattiest planes to India/S Asia routes. And the perceptions solidify when there is an accident like EK521 involving an older 777 jet.

It will take years to change this perception and that can only happen once we see a real change in scheduling.


On A.net it is always fun to think or hope that passengers choose their flights based on aircraft flown, configuration etc. Yet we always come back to the reality that price is the deciding factor. If this were not the case, BA/EK etc would be flying empty planes to and from the region and all the paying passengers would be flying on airlines with sparkling new planes.

Be that as it may, there is still a large community of Indian frequent fliers who feel (and refuse to give their money to) that European airlines in particular only send their worst birds to India. My uncle and all his network are exporters for the textiles and auto industries who travel often abroad, and they refuse to fly any European airline because in the 90s and 00s, they claim they were subject shoddy hard and soft product on AF, BA, KL (they especially hated the MD-11 that KL used to send to HYD) and LH. I know it's only anecdotal information, but they still have that impression. Even when I tell them that LH sends their brand new 748s and A380 to BLR, DEL, and BOM; AF sends their 77Ws to DEL and 77Es to BOM and BLR; and BA flies multiple 77Ws and 788/789s to India, they have made that resolution. It's anecdotal information only, I know, but that impression does exist among the Indian business community to an extent. So yes, it will still take a lot of time and conscious effort by the European airlines to get rid of that image for what it's worth.

And I flew EK on the way back from HYD this past weekend, and I must say that there was a marked difference between the hard and soft products on the HYD-DXB leg and the DXB-BOS leg. The food was much better, the seats were much better maintained, and the flight attendants didn't call anyone "that brown fellow" on the second leg; all of which was the opposite on the first leg. And for what it's worth, there were a large number of South Asians on the second leg as well. As such, I have resolved never to fly EK again.

So yeah, maybe the whole "airline racism" this is exaggerated, but having experienced it myself, I can truly say that it does exist. Now, I'm flying AF to India next month via JFK (A380 to CDG) and BOM (77E from CDG), so I'll see if this is the case with AF as well, but my initial guess is that it will be the same based on what my mom told me about her previous trip on AF.


I tend to agree with you, the whole "Airline Racism" thing is exaggerated. Why do you and your colleagues keep giving your money to these airlines? If you want a better product, choose a different airline.

EK Longhaul flights have better service and amenities than a regional flight. How long is DXB-HYD? 3:30 hours? Why would it be the same as a 10 hour+ flight

EU airlines are all going through fleet renewals and as you said yourself above, they are flying new configurations to the region. It all comes down to where they get the most return on their money.

What you are alluding to as racism is called economics.

Is it "racist" here in the US that you can fly LAX-NYC with international service and amenities., yet for PHX-NYC you get nothing special? Or being stuck on an RJ when connecting to an international wide body flight?

To me it just seems that there are so many market factors in play, the fact they are flying many flights, with premium configurations means people are speaking with their wallet and it is acceptable service levels.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:06 pm

seabosdca wrote:
There is also the matter of pilot training. There has been a distressing number of incidents with AI Express. While I recognize that is not AI, it doesn't give confidence. There have been fewer incidents with QR and EK, but some of the ones that have occurred have been quite scary in what they've revealed about the safety culture. The strongest safety records in the Indian international market belong to U.S. and European airlines.


Complete BS! And typical of the racism we see so often.

The last, and ONLY incident in Air India Express history was IX182 in Mangalore - and that had a Serbian ex-pat pilot at the controls. The last fatal crash in mainline Air India was with the Indian Airlines/Alliance Air 737-200 in Patna (Flight CD7412) - in 2000! The last incident (non-fatal) was in 2014 when an A320 went off the runway while attempting a landing at JAI in zero-visibility fog.

As for perceptions in India about European carriers deploying substandard aircraft and 3rd rate service on India routes - they do not come from EK's 3-4 hour flights. But from a history dating back to the 90's of BA (and others) sending their rattiest planes on their India/S Asia routes. It may not be reality now, but there is a history and the perceptions have stayed.
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AI126
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:29 pm

airzona11 wrote:
AI126 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:

On A.net it is always fun to think or hope that passengers choose their flights based on aircraft flown, configuration etc. Yet we always come back to the reality that price is the deciding factor. If this were not the case, BA/EK etc would be flying empty planes to and from the region and all the paying passengers would be flying on airlines with sparkling new planes.

Be that as it may, there is still a large community of Indian frequent fliers who feel (and refuse to give their money to) that European airlines in particular only send their worst birds to India. My uncle and all his network are exporters for the textiles and auto industries who travel often abroad, and they refuse to fly any European airline because in the 90s and 00s, they claim they were subject shoddy hard and soft product on AF, BA, KL (they especially hated the MD-11 that KL used to send to HYD) and LH. I know it's only anecdotal information, but they still have that impression. Even when I tell them that LH sends their brand new 748s and A380 to BLR, DEL, and BOM; AF sends their 77Ws to DEL and 77Es to BOM and BLR; and BA flies multiple 77Ws and 788/789s to India, they have made that resolution. It's anecdotal information only, I know, but that impression does exist among the Indian business community to an extent. So yes, it will still take a lot of time and conscious effort by the European airlines to get rid of that image for what it's worth.

And I flew EK on the way back from HYD this past weekend, and I must say that there was a marked difference between the hard and soft products on the HYD-DXB leg and the DXB-BOS leg. The food was much better, the seats were much better maintained, and the flight attendants didn't call anyone "that brown fellow" on the second leg; all of which was the opposite on the first leg. And for what it's worth, there were a large number of South Asians on the second leg as well. As such, I have resolved never to fly EK again.

So yeah, maybe the whole "airline racism" this is exaggerated, but having experienced it myself, I can truly say that it does exist. Now, I'm flying AF to India next month via JFK (A380 to CDG) and BOM (77E from CDG), so I'll see if this is the case with AF as well, but my initial guess is that it will be the same based on what my mom told me about her previous trip on AF.


I tend to agree with you, the whole "Airline Racism" thing is exaggerated. Why do you and your colleagues keep giving your money to these airlines? If you want a better product, choose a different airline.

EK Longhaul flights have better service and amenities than a regional flight. How long is DXB-HYD? 3:30 hours? Why would it be the same as a 10 hour+ flight

EU airlines are all going through fleet renewals and as you said yourself above, they are flying new configurations to the region. It all comes down to where they get the most return on their money.

What you are alluding to as racism is called economics.

Is it "racist" here in the US that you can fly LAX-NYC with international service and amenities., yet for PHX-NYC you get nothing special? Or being stuck on an RJ when connecting to an international wide body flight?

To me it just seems that there are so many market factors in play, the fact they are flying many flights, with premium configurations means people are speaking with their wallet and it is acceptable service levels.

Not sure if you read my post fully, but this was the first time I flew EK, and after the experience I had, I have resolved to never fly them again. Also, as I mentioned prior, my uncle and his network refuse to fly Euro airlines after their experiences in the past, so I'm not quite understanding your assertion there...

And be that as it me that DXB-HYD is a regional route, the "that brown fellow" comment was entirely unnecessary and the fact that the planes seats were visibly crumbling was still a terrible impression to make and a failure on customer service there. And I would be intrigued to talk to you about racial economics since you brought up that point; I think we would have an interesting discussion there.

BawliBooch wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
There is also the matter of pilot training. There has been a distressing number of incidents with AI Express. While I recognize that is not AI, it doesn't give confidence. There have been fewer incidents with QR and EK, but some of the ones that have occurred have been quite scary in what they've revealed about the safety culture. The strongest safety records in the Indian international market belong to U.S. and European airlines.


Complete BS! And typical of the racism we see so often.

The last, and ONLY incident in Air India Express history was IX182 in Mangalore - and that had a Serbian ex-pat pilot at the controls. The last fatal crash in mainline Air India was with the Indian Airlines/Alliance Air 737-200 in Patna (Flight CD7412) - in 2000! The last incident (non-fatal) was in 2014 when an A320 went off the runway while attempting a landing at JAI in zero-visibility fog.

As for perceptions in India about European carriers deploying substandard aircraft and 3rd rate service on India routes - they do not come from EK's 3-4 hour flights. But from a history dating back to the 90's of BA (and others) sending their rattiest planes on their India/S Asia routes. It may not be reality now, but there is a history and the perceptions have stayed.


Well this isn't entirely true because there was that 9W 738 incident in GOI a few weeks ago, but yeah, other than that, Indian pilots have never had safety concerns. The DGCA's requirements are in full concurrence with ICAO standards and have been for a long time now, as certified by both the EASA, FAA, and JCAB.

And again, this perception about European carriers is exactly why a certain sect of the Indian business community have refused to fly them. Of course, that isn't to say that these cabins aren't being filled, but that also doesn't mean that the perception has vanished yet. And it will take a long time for that to change with conscious effort put in by the carriers themselves. Trust, respect, and economics are a two-way street.
 
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:46 pm

AI126 wrote:
Well this isn't entirely true because there was that 9W 738 incident in GOI a few weeks ago, but yeah, other than that, Indian pilots have never had safety concerns. The DGCA's requirements are in full concurrence with ICAO standards and have been for a long time now, as certified by both the EASA, FAA, and JCAB.

Was referring to OP's post about Air India but yeah! OT - but that incident with 9W2374 was a shocker! In march they had a landing gear collapse incident with one of their two 737-900's at BOM. 2 non-fatal incidents in one year after 9 incident-free years!

AI126 wrote:
And again, this perception about European carriers is exactly why a certain sect of the Indian business community have refused to fly them. Of course, that isn't to say that these cabins aren't being filled, but that also doesn't mean that the perception has vanished yet. And it will take a long time for that to change with conscious effort put in by the carriers themselves. Trust, respect, and economics are a two-way street.

Absolutely! And I think European carriers in particular are making a concious effort to make that change. But perceptions based on years of neglect is going to take some time to change.
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seabosdca
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Re: Routes Of Emirates 777s Of 90s

Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:01 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Complete BS! And typical of the racism we see so often.

The last, and ONLY incident in Air India Express history was IX182 in Mangalore - and that had a Serbian ex-pat pilot at the controls. The last fatal crash in mainline Air India was with the Indian Airlines/Alliance Air 737-200 in Patna (Flight CD7412) - in 2000! The last incident (non-fatal) was in 2014 when an A320 went off the runway while attempting a landing at JAI in zero-visibility fog.


Look beyond just crashes and bent-metal incidents. Don't forget the Express 738 that dove 7000 feet while a Captain was in the lav because the brand-new FO had no training or knowledge in upset recovery. Or the 738 that landed hard because neither pilot was looking at the instruments. Or the 738 crew that performed an autoland despite not being certified to do so and went off the runway sideways. I don't care if the pilots are expats or locals; either way, it's an indictment against the training culture of the airline.

As for perceptions in India about European carriers deploying substandard aircraft and 3rd rate service on India routes - they do not come from EK's 3-4 hour flights. But from a history dating back to the 90's of BA (and others) sending their rattiest planes on their India/S Asia routes. It may not be reality now, but there is a history and the perceptions have stayed.


All BA planes were ratty in the '90s. EK and QR definitely send their oldest equipment on India routes, but I haven't seen any evidence that European carriers have ever done so. In fact, during the time period you're talking about, India did not get the oldest aircraft in the BA fleet -- the 747-100s that typically served transatlantic routes.

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