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bmacleod
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AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:43 pm

A year after the crash of AC 624, passengers are claiming they have PTSD among other serious medical issues....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...e-passengers-anniversary-1.3510935

[Edited 2016-03-30 10:45:16]
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codc10
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:47 pm

Of course they do... statutes of limitation are rolling around and it's time to file suit!  
 
N1120A
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:53 pm

Quoting codc10 (Reply 1):
Of course they do... statutes of limitation are rolling around and it's time to file suit!

Have you ever been in a plane crash?
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ArmitageShanks
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:54 pm

I can see how some folks might be pretty messed up after going through something like that.
 
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kanban
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:51 am

Quoting codc10 (Reply 1):
Of course they do.

yup ditto

This is most likely a case where they have devoted their lives to being survivors of the accident to the point it is who they are... yet most survivors go on with more important matters and the crash becomes only a foot note in their journey... and yes I've been in a gear up landing.
 
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:59 am

Everyone responds to these things in different ways. PTSD is a diagnosis that can be given after one event. After all it's Post Traumatic Stress. And a plane crash can be pretty damn traumatic.

From that article I do not see people trying to get some sort of free ride or such. Hell, there's even this quote from the article itself.

Quote:
Catherine Ouellet, another passenger, said she hasn't been able to fly at all since the crash. Her back, foot, and left arm were all injured and she's been diagnosed with PTSD.

...

Despite all of that, Ouellet doesn't feel anyone should be blamed for the crash.

That does not sound like someone wanting to get a free ride.

So yeah, it really stinks for these people and I hope they're getting the reasonable help they need. No need to slander them as weaklings because they haven't reacted how you think you would in the same situation.
 
N1120A
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:18 am

Anyone see what that plane looked like after the crash? This wasn't a "gear up" landing. This was a crash that people survived.
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coolian2
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:28 am

Quoting bmacleod (Thread starter):
A year after the crash of AC 624, passengers are claiming they have PTSD among other serious medical issues....

I probably bloody would too!

Quoting codc10 (Reply 1):
Of course they do... statutes of limitation are rolling around and it's time to file suit!  

Diagnosed with PTSD. The key word is diagnosed. But Ill guess you didn't read the article.
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pvjin
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:45 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
Anyone see what that plane looked like after the crash? This wasn't a "gear up" landing. This was a crash that people survived.

Sure, but nobody died and the whole event was over very quickly, so I would be highly skeptical of anybody actually developing PTSD over this.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 7):
Diagnosed with PTSD. The key word is diagnosed. But Ill guess you didn't read the article.

Yeah right, you can get diagnosis for almost anything that can't be examined physically if you say the right things.
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ltbewr
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:28 am

People can get forms of PTSD from any significantly serious bad event including physical assault, rape, kidnapping, car crashes, being in a war zone, or at or near a terrorism event. Ask anyone who survived a plane crash or had to do the emergency services after one and may will have mental and psychological issues from them. It is only the last 30 years we are recognizing seriously the issues of PTSD. Time, consulting, support from friends and family, and personal attitudes can make a difference, but still many suffer with PTSD affecting their lives, ability to work and travel.
 
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:18 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 8):
Sure, but nobody died and the whole event was over very quickly, so I would be highly skeptical of anybody actually developing PTSD over this.

So what are your credentials in the fields of psychology and/or psychiatry? I'd like to know schools, certifications, and any experience in the field as a clinical setting. Do tell how you can diagnose or rebut the diagnosis of someone you've never met from an armchair.

The only thing worse about this site than the ads are the people who think they know it all and speculate from an armchair.
 
turjo101
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:32 pm

as long as that diagnosis comes from a physician and not a lawyer...
 
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pvjin
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:04 pm

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 10):

I like to read stuff from the interwebs. I don't need to be an expert to have an opinion on the matter, especially when my opinion is irrelevant anyway. I have studied history of medicine in an university though, if that counts.

It's a fact that in western world there's a phenomenon of overmedicalization. For example seeing nightmares of a past accident / uncomfortable situation is completely normal and not a sign of PTSD or any other illness. Similarly having a fear of flying after an aircraft accident is hardly a sign of an illness to me. If those kinds of things really count as symptoms of PTSD then I apparently suffer from it too.
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:02 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 8):
Sure, but nobody died and the whole event was over very quickly, so I would be highly skeptical of anybody actually developing PTSD over this.

Is that an informed, medical conclusion or is it merely your personal opinion?
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Francoflier
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:10 pm

Some of them may very well suffer from PTSD, and some might legally be entitled to some form of compensation.

But there is a line somewhere between just retribution and gratuitous and opportunistic attempt at getting money.

Just how many of these people are seeking to be covered for their medical expenses and missed revenue caused by the accident, and how many are just fine but take the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon and squeeze CA for as much as they can... we'll never know.
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coolian2
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:16 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 14):
Just how many of these people are seeking to be covered for their medical expenses and missed revenue caused by the accident, and how many are just fine but take the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon and squeeze CA for as much as they can... we'll never know.

Tough for AC. The people who need help genuinely need it - if there is someone taking advantage as well, that sucks.

Maybe don't let your pilots drive planes through a set of runway lights and you won't have to worry about the hangers on.
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pvjin
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:21 pm

Quoting Mbmbos (Reply 13):
Is that an informed, medical conclusion or is it merely your personal opinion?

The latter.
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mbmbos
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:36 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 16):
The latter.

Precisely. An uninformed conclusion.
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:55 pm

I'm constantly amused by the perceptions, on this board and elsewhere, of what people think lawyering is based on media reporting versus what it actually is.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
Anyone see what that plane looked like after the crash? This wasn't a "gear up" landing. This was a crash that people survived.

Indeed. That's more than just a bad landing.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 7):
Diagnosed with PTSD. The key word is diagnosed

Exactly. If someone's not diagnosed with it, then they don't have a leg to stand on. However, if a qualified, board-certified doctor has diagnosed these people with PTSD, then that's a different matter.

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 11):
as long as that diagnosis comes from a physician and not a lawyer...

Who else would make the diagnosis? I'm not terribly familiar with the Canadian legal system, but I can't imagine it's much different from that in the US. As PTSD is a medical diagnosis, a qualified medical professional must make the diagnosis. That professional will be deposed and testify as an expert at trial if it reaches that stage. A lawyer cannot make a medical diagnosis. Never mind that a jury wouldn't buy it, it would never make it to the jury since anyone other than a qualified medical professional making a medical diagnosis does not survive any evidentiary rule. I cannot imagine that Canada is any different.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 15):
Tough for AC. The people who need help genuinely need it - if there is someone taking advantage as well, that sucks.

True, but going back to what you posted earlier, if that person is not diagnosed with PTSD, they won't really get far.
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DrColenzo
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:03 pm

I am astounded at the lack of sympathy being shown here in such an uniformed way - trust me, air accidents/incidents are darn scary and I know this from being part of a well known near miss at Heathrow around a decade and a half ago.

It was over pretty quickly and I have to admit feeling more 'whoa!' than scared at the exact instant it happened but a few seconds later I was aware the person next to me had soiled themselves and then was very aware of the screaming and upset around the entire cabin. Many of those people have issues to this very day. Now imagine there is not a - admittedly bloody hard - landing at the end but a crash, even one a person can walk away from...

...You would have to be pretty darn cold to not feel a thing even one, five or ten years later. The passengers of AC634 have every right to feel aggrieved at this moment in time and deserve whatever restitution they see fit.

Unrelated to any air accident, I fractured my spine whilst in the military in 2003 and had PTSD for a while afterwards as I recovered and underwent rehab. It was difficult for someone who always thought of themselves as being fairly tough but I had good friends and family.

Trust me, you don't want it and nor do you want to mock or belittle PTSD as each and every one of us are all one accident, incident or whatever away from suffering it ourselves  
 
codc10
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:31 pm

Look, in no way am I downplaying the severity of the incident or the likely injuries, both physical and psychological, that the passengers onboard suffered. There is no question that this was a serious mishap, and I would certainly be right in their camp if the roles were reversed, undoubtedly.

But litigation is a fact of life following any sort of aviation mishap, and publicity is a useful arrow in the plaintiff's lawyer's quiver at every step of the litigation in crafting an effective (and profitable) aviation case, especially where multiple claimants may exist.

Plaintiff's attorneys take these matters on a contingent fee basis, and firms expect to lay out millions in a major aviation case (over the course of several years) before recovering a nickel, so achieving a critical mass of claimants is often important to ensure that the case will ultimately be worthwhile to pursue.

Public awareness and perception are key. Direct solicitation by law firms is permitted in most jurisdictions after a period of time following a crash, but passengers will likely be faced with multiple firms competing for their business, including ones that may not be particularly experienced in aviation law. We see that from time to time. So credibility is key.

This text is important:

Quote:
Clark and her husband have joined a lawsuit against Air Canada, the Halifax airport, NAV Canada, Transport Canada, Airbus, and the pilots.

The proposed class action alleges negligence on the part of the defendants caused the crash and led to physical and psychological harm to passengers.

Ray Wagner is one of the lawyers heading up the suit. He said a certification hearing in court will go ahead in December.

The firm MacGillivray Injury and Insurance Law is also representing some passengers. Thirty are being assessed by medical professionals and the firm has started an informal process asking NAV Canada, Air Canada and the airport for individual settlements based on the injuries of each client.

I suppose my point was simply missed in my hasty reply...

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
Have you ever been in a plane crash?

I have not, but I litigate plane crash cases for a living, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.  

The passengers have clearly suffered a traumatic experience and naturally are entitled not only to sue, but also to recover damages, in some measure, for their harm. And they will... it's just a matter of from whom.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 7):
Diagnosed with PTSD. The key word is diagnosed. But Ill guess you didn't read the article.

I read the article, and fully understand what the "diagnosis" means. At the risk of sounding callous, I also play the game, and you can rest assured that every single personal injury plaintiff, in any case, also has a diagnosis of some grievous harm. I don't doubt for one minute that a credible physician could make the claimed diagnoses in this article.

However, just like anything else, there is money to be made by publicizing the lawsuit that inevitably follows these occurrences. It's not cynical, as litigation is a necessary incident to victims recovering compensation for undergoing such a terrifying ordeal. But once one cuts through the emotional overtones designed to obfuscate the heart of the matter, one realizes that this is simply business.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):
I'm constantly amused by the perceptions, on this board and elsewhere, of what people think lawyering is based on media reporting versus what it actually is.

Sure...
 
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:01 pm

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 19):
I am astounded at the lack of sympathy being shown here in such an uniformed way - trust me, air accidents/incidents are darn scary and I know this from being part of a well known near miss at Heathrow around a decade and a half ago.

It was over pretty quickly and I have to admit feeling more 'whoa!' than scared at the exact instant it happened but a few seconds later I was aware the person next to me had soiled themselves and then was very aware of the screaming and upset around the entire cabin. Many of those people have issues to this very day. Now imagine there is not a - admittedly bloody hard - landing at the end but a crash, even one a person can walk away from...

As a passenger how did you even know you were involved in a near miss? I'm not down playing anything, but I'm just honestly curious about the situation. Did you guys actually collide or was the aircraft put into an extreme unusual attitude?
 
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:11 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
Have you ever been in a plane crash?

My mom and my grandma did, and they seem pretty normal until today.... but as we know, people are different, who knows?
 
octubre299
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:56 pm

I absolutely sympathize with the pax. Even for people with mild claustrophobia or fear of flying, it can be debilitating thinking about boarding a plane, let alone being involved in an incident of this kind. As for monetary compensation? that is a whole different animal.
 
fraT
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:15 pm

I think it is no question to most of use here that medical treatment (including psychological treatment) and or costs to repair/replace damaged belongings has to be paid by AC. Don't think that anybody is questioning that.
One could however read between the lines in the article that there are people who want more than that. I here I agree with some others that then it becomes a bit questionable. But I guess this is common practice today. The question is whether the courts follow these claims.
 
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:17 pm

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 21):
As a passenger how did you even know you were involved in a near miss? I'm not down playing anything, but I'm just honestly curious about the situation. Did you guys actually collide or was the aircraft put into an extreme unusual attitude?

The crew and airline were very upfront - the pilot laconically explained that he had to get out the way of another aircraft (perhaps not the smartest way of telling the passengers) and once we were at the terminal the airline staff gave an explanation and really good support, we were looked after so well and driven home at the airline's cost. I cannot fault them whatsoever and later on as it became apparent it was the fault of the other guy then I was even more impressed by their attitude - the passengers came first. I was more aware of what was going on as I was still in the forces and knew about such stuff.

As to what it was like to experience, I cannot really tell you as it was so quick. However.....in 1981 when I was about seven my family was coming back from Malta on a Laker Airlines DC-10 and we had a sudden drop in altitude. I remember that in detail, my elder sister went flying into the luggage rack and their was detritus everywhere along with cuts and bruises - my nuts felt like they were 100 feet below me when it happened and I actually thought it was fun,

Best not fly with me with my luck....
 
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:54 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 22):
My mom and my grandma did, and they seem pretty normal until today.... but as we know, people are different, who knows?

My ex-wife was involved in a crash (runway overrun at FLR) with one fatality (in the cockpit). She suffered a broken wrist. Yet no PTSD whatsoever.
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:04 pm

That different people in the same situation react differently is the main finding on the study of passengers on Air Transat 236. That you were in a similar situation and didn't suffer PTSD is irrelevant.

Quote:
“What our findings show is that it is not what happened but to whom it happened that may determine subsequent onset of PTSD,” said Levine, adding that an inability to shut out external details is related to mental control over memory recall.
“The big question here is why when you’ve got this plane full of people, at least in our sample, half got PTSD and half didn’t? The big question in the (research) literature is why do some people get PTSD and others don’t, when they’re exposed to the same event?
“To me, that’s the most important finding of the study,” he said, noting that the findings add to a growing body of evidence suggesting that altered memory processing may be a vulnerability factor for PTSD.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2...er_aids_understanding_of_ptsd.html
 
saloman
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:38 pm

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 19):
It was over pretty quickly and I have to admit feeling more 'whoa!' than scared at the exact instant it happened but a few seconds later I was aware the person next to me had soiled themselves and then was very aware of the screaming and upset around the entire cabin.

This was my exact experience as a passenger on Northwest 2040 (MSP-YQR, where the FA set the lav ablaze). I wasn't much phased by it, but there were people crying and asking flight attendants if they were going to die. Can't imagine the fear on the AC flight as it skidded across the runway.
 
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:59 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):
I'm constantly amused by the perceptions, on this board and elsewhere, of what people think lawyering is based on media reporting versus what it actually is.

On top of that, they think that because they see people with fake comfort animals (a comfort horse once!), they think that doctors are generally unethical and will make fake diagnoses to support their fake legal claims.

Everyone's a skeptic. For some reason, it makes people feel good to be skeptics, even though they have never experienced what these folks have.


With that said, if it's near the statute of limitations for filing a suit, that could explain the filings happening now, as opposed to sometime later.

Why not earlier? You have to actually develop a factual record the best you can. Ironically, the ones that immediately go to the courthouse the instant something happens to them get the same jeering as the ones that take their time and develop the case. At some point, you just have to admit to yourself what is true: you just hate lawyers.
 
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:33 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 26):
My ex-wife was involved in a crash (runway overrun at FLR) with one fatality (in the cockpit). She suffered a broken wrist. Yet no PTSD whatsoever

I'm sure that both you and she are thankful for the absence of physical and psychological injury.

People can suffer psychological damage simply by witnessing an event that did not happen to them. In the 1999-2000 time frame, I witnessed a fatal highway crash when a dump truck driver less than 1/2 mile in front of me had a heart attack and crossed the median into the opposing lanes -- at rush hour. His truck ran over a Toyota Celica and collided with at least two other vehicles. I was, apparently, the only person to see the incident from inception to completion. I stopped my car and ran across the median, prepared to render assistance to the victim in the Celica. Thankfully, an ER doctor was right behind the victim and was already tending to her almost fatal injuries.

Simply witnessing this incident altered my day-to-day affairs for about a week. The best way to describe what happened to me was that my view of the world tilted itself many degrees. Nothing was straight; nothing was normal. This is not enough to help anybody understand exactly what I was thinking and feeling, but after a few days I began to wonder if normalcy would be restored. It was and for that I'm thankful. I constantly pondered my own mortality, and that of my newlywed bride. The Celica driver (her name is Beth) was doing exactly I was -- driving to work -- and her life was irreversibly damaged just because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. None of us get in our cars and think "I'm going to be killed or maimed today" and if we consider the possibility, we really don't believe it will actually happen. But it did happen, and I saw it.

I was merely a witness. I don't know how I might react were I actually involved in a crash like I witnessed, or like these airline passengers experienced. But I know it is arrogant presumption to judge the reaction of others, and such presumption is on full display in this thread.

[Edited 2016-03-31 13:35:52]
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kanban
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:38 pm

There are many people who for lack of self esteem identify themselves by an illness ("I'm a ____ survivor") , disability (I have manic/depressive inclinations") , accident, abuse, or being near some news making event. Then then read up on their fixation and convince themselves they have all the symptoms and somebody is to blame, eventually they develop such a profound belief system that it is difficult for professionals to distinguish fact from belief. Once met a gal who went on for 10 minutes about all these defining things she'd survived or witnessed before she got to what her name was.. and as soon as she realized I wasn't going to be an enabler, moved on to the next potential sucker.

The problem is the world is just as full of helpers and enablers and yes some mental health professionals fall in that group as well as lawyers.

Hence the admonition "get a life people!, shit happens, get on with living"
 
coolian2
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:40 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 31):

If I could reply to this the way I'd like to, I'd get banned.
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kanban
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:47 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 32):

Then I would ask does one describe themselves by their strengths or by their weaknesses? Being a survivor can be a strength provided they've moved on to greater things.
 
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:00 pm

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 30):
But I know it is arrogant presumption to judge the reaction of others, and such presumption is on full display in this thread.

  

This wasn't a go-around or an incident of severe turbulence. It was a crash landing well short of the runway in which the aircraft hit a large variety of fixed ground equipment, had its landing gear torn off, and slid up an embankment, followed by a full evacuation onto the runway. AC was very lucky that no one was killed. PTSD could easily develop after such an event, and any company that has such an event occur is going to get sued for damages.
 
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kanban
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:12 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 34):
PTSD could easily develop

are you speaking as an expert or a sympathizer / enabler?
 
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:08 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 35):
are you speaking as an expert or a sympathizer / enabler?

I'm not a psychologist and don't claim to be one, but the idea that PTSD could develop after an air crash (which AC 624 absolutely was) is hardly controversial. The DSM-5 criterion for PTSD exposure states:

"The person was exposed to: death, threatened death, actual or threatened serious injury, or actual or threatened sexual violence. . . "

This was absolutely an event of threatened death or threatened serious injury. Passengers would have seen it as such, and they would have been right. Again, this was an airplane that crashed into ground equipment, losing its landing gear in the process, and then crashed onto the ground itself and careened out of control on its belly for about a kilometer, including going up an embankment.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:11 pm

AC624 made a really nasty landing, and it could have ended in a real tragedy.

Of 133 pax 23 were checked at the hospital, and only 22 of them were released same day. Some suffered minor scratches during the evacuation. AC gave $5,000 to all 133 pax.

If I had been on that plane, then I would have wasted all five grand on a huge party for all friends, drowning them in champagne while telling them how happy I was to see them all tonight, and again and again.

And if I had been one of the "unlucky" ones to get a plaster on the nose, then I would have worn that plaster on the nose during the party.

But now it is time for big money. PTSD can at such events be an issue for people who were already mentally weak. But it is first of all a tool in the big money business. A PTSD diagnosis proves nothing.

Lawyers will often have a cousin, who is a doctor who has a web site on which you can order a PTSD diagnosis for fifty bucks. Anybody who claim to have witnessed a traffic accident can order one.

Hopefully money cures PTSD....  
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
threepoint
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:40 pm

I think we can agree that PTSD is a legitimate affliction deserving of our compassionate attention, and that it can strike emergency and first-response staff as well as ordinary people (in this case airline passengers). No doubt we all agree that the increased focus on mental illnesses and removing the stigmas attached to its effects is a very positive improvement over the past few years.

Can we also agree that claiming the effects of PTSD - like whiplash or a stiff back - is a very easy, convenient and difficult-to-disprove method of defrauding a system for one's personal gain?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
threepoint
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:03 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 36):
Again, this was an airplane that crashed into ground equipment, losing its landing gear in the process, and then crashed onto the ground itself and careened out of control on its belly for about a kilometer, including going up an embankment.

A kilometre is 1000 metres. The total distance between first contact and resting was less than 800 metres: http://avherald.com/h?article=483e7337&opt=0. The airplane "careened" or skidded for approximately half that distance. It did not go "up an embankment", it struck the crest of said embankment and became airborne again.

Mine is not a comment designed to nitpick the details of your claim, but it is shining light upon the rather sensational link between the facts of the accident sequence and speculation on how the occupants may have equated their experience to an impending demise.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 36):
Passengers would have seen it as such, and they would have been right.

Ironic comment, seeing as just two posts earlier, you had agreed - with a big green check mark - that presuming to judge the reaction of others is arrogant:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 34):
Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 30):
But I know it is arrogant presumption to judge the reaction of others, and such presumption is on full display in this thread.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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kanban
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:22 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 36):

reading the DSM-5 everyone can find at least three major mental health illness symptoms that apply to themselves.. reading and relating to a criteria does not equate to a diagnosis. the situation is exacerbated by having the DSM readily available for people looking for an excuse for failure or sympathetic enabler money.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:29 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 39):
Mine is not a comment designed to nitpick the details of your claim, but it is shining light upon the rather sensational link between the facts of the accident sequence and speculation on how the occupants may have equated their experience to an impending demise.

So, bumping along the ground (and bouncing once into the air, and coming back down) without landing gear at over 100 knots, you wouldn't have worried that you were about to die or become seriously injured? I know this is the territory of the Internet Tough Guy, but come on now.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 39):
Ironic comment, seeing as just two posts earlier, you had agreed - with a big green check mark - that presuming to judge the reaction of others is arrogant:

Many comments in this thread are judging the reaction I described as hysterical or overblown. I'm saying those comments are wrong. Maybe some poor souls thought "Oh, I'm in a crashing airplane; no big deal, and it's going to be fine." I sincerely doubt that was in the heads of most of the passengers.
 
coolian2
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:26 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 37):
Hopefully money cures PTSD....  

No, but PTSD can do severe damage to your ability to earn money.
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prebennorholm
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:35 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 41):
Many comments in this thread are judging the reaction I described as hysterical or overblown.

Nah, I didn't read it that way. On the other hand I saw a lot of scepticism that the cure should be to burry the affected people in a pile of money.

It has become an industry, in many cases a very "dirty" industry.

Nobody wishes more than AC that they could undo the whole thing, but they can't. Claiming millions from them is just pure nonsense and stupidity. It only helps the ambulance chasing law firms.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
ElPistolero
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:05 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 38):
Can we also agree that claiming the effects of PTSD - like whiplash or a stiff back - is a very easy, convenient and difficult-to-disprove method of defrauding a system for one's personal gain?

I have good news. There is a very simple way of avoiding this alleged 'fraud': don't crash-land airplanes.

I'm not a fan of these poorly disguised attacks on the moral fibre of the people affected by this incident. IMHO, it amounts to downplaying the seriousness of the incident (or was that the intention?) I recall most folk on this site thinking it was a very dangerous incident at the time.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this was no different to a run-of-the-mill 'hard landing', and the only legitimate complaint anyone should have is limited to the impact of the poor lighting on the obligatory selfie while walking away.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:36 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 44):
I'm not a fan of these poorly disguised attacks on the moral fibre of the people affected by this incident. IMHO, it amounts to downplaying the seriousness of the incident (or was that the intention?) I recall most folk on this site thinking it was a very dangerous incident at the time.

Sure it was a very dangerous, not incident, but accident. Only pure luck made everybody walk away from it.

But leave that to the TSB to deal with. In the preliminary report they list eight tasks which they will concentrate on. Number three will be the serious one:
Evaluating pilot training and experience, human performance aspects, crew resource management, industry standards and company operating procedures.

The serious thing is to prevent that it happens again. It is not to distribute random millions to random people, who should be jumping up and down of joy all day long simply because they are still alive.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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seabosdca
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:48 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 44):
I'm not a fan of these poorly disguised attacks on the moral fibre of the people affected by this incident. IMHO, it amounts to downplaying the seriousness of the incident (or was that the intention?) I recall most folk on this site thinking it was a very dangerous incident at the time.

  

Not everyone who files a lawsuit is just grubbing for money. The system exists because people suffer damages and should be compensated for them. It's much, much harder to win a "frivolous lawsuit" than you would think from listening to sensationalist cable news.

It's not hard to imagine that people are psychologically affected by being inside an airliner that experiences a severe crash landing that could have been fatal to all or most aboard with a spark or two in the right place. This was the closest thing we've had to a fatal mainline crash in North America since AA 587.

[Edited 2016-03-31 19:51:11]
 
threepoint
Posts: 1294
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:06 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 41):
So, bumping along the ground (and bouncing once into the air, and coming back down) without landing gear at over 100 knots, you wouldn't have worried that you were about to die or become seriously injured? I know this is the territory of the Internet Tough Guy, but come on now.

If you read my post carefully, you will understand there is no hint of my position being one of 'these people need to harden up'. I've simply introduced the argument that PTSD can easily be claimed by a person not suffering from its effects. I have been in an airplane that became airborne, failed to climb, sheared through threshold lighting and skidded to rest after shedding some vital pieces of its structure. So I have some first-hand knowledge of what I was thinking at the time, and it was NOT about my personal safety, there was not much time to think apart from my reptile brain reaction to 'protect myself'. This was in the days before PTSD was a widely recognized phenomenon, but I don't believe I experienced it. I was shaken, upset and scared once I had time to reflect. But I got back on the horse and didn't seek compensation. Does that make me tough, or dumb or something? Nah, it doesn't make me anything.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 41):
Maybe some poor souls thought "Oh, I'm in a crashing airplane; no big deal, and it's going to be fine." I sincerely doubt that was in the heads of most of the passengers.

Ah there it is: you DOUBT it was in their heads, but you don't know. And that was my point. You can't speak for others, especially if you haven't met any of them.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 44):
I have good news. There is a very simple way of avoiding this alleged 'fraud': don't crash-land airplanes.

Blue ribbon for Facetiousness.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 44):
I'm not a fan of these poorly disguised attacks on the moral fibre of the people affected by this incident. IMHO, it amounts to downplaying the seriousness of the incident (or was that the intention?) I recall most folk on this site thinking it was a very dangerous incident at the time.

This has nothing to do with the severity of the accident. Nor is is an attack on anybody from the accident at all. As I've very patiently explained, I simply introduced the argument that PTSD is one of the afflictions that is very difficult to prove or refute, and is wide open to abuse.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 46):
Not everyone who files a lawsuit is just grubbing for money.

Who said they were?

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 46):
It's not hard to imagine that people are psychologically affected by being inside an airliner that experiences a severe crash landing

Agreed. Each person on board will have differing lingering reactions to the accident. Some of them may include exploiting the situation, but neither you nor I know that for sure.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:48 am

This is a sad thread, given how little people seem to be caring about victims of an accident. Sure, no one died, but is it so improbably that no one had psychological effects from the incident? I would have been rattled by it, I think. At least.

Kind of reminds me of the monthly turbulence threads where a.net airline apologists bash the passengers for not heeding to the seatbelt rules, even though they might well have been hit by a flying cart or on their way to the bathroom.

Note: I do not condone excessive claimed lawsuits, but if that is what you are worried about, go change the laws and legal systems of your country. I would still say that it is possible that people can get injured, physically and mentally, from various accidents, aviation accidents included.
 
TC957
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RE: AC 624 Passengers Suffer From P.T.S.D

Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:04 am

My sympathy to those unfortunate to be caught up in AC 624, but it makes me wonder how we all survived in past generations when air crashes were far more frequent and ambulance-chasing lawyers didn't exist.

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