Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
blueflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:03 pm

An Israeli female passenger is suing El Al for discrimination because she was asked by a flight attendant to move seats in order not to be next to an ultra-orthodox passenger. She claims she agreed to move because she felt she had no alternative but El Al claims the flight attendant informed her the request was purely optional.

At the end of the flight, she told the captain she felt she had been insulted by the flight attendant for asking her to move solely based on her gender, to which the captain allegedly replied it was company policy, not an action of the flight attendant's own will.

“The man had no other reason to complain than my gender – and that’s unlawful discrimination. It’s no different than if a person of another religion had said: ‘I don’t want to sit next to a Jew.’ And I don’t believe El Al would move a person in those circumstance.”

She admits her lawsuit is not so much about monetary damage as it is about forcing El Al to change their policy, if such a policy does exist (the airline denies it), and to instruct its flight attendants that female passengers cannot be asked, even on a purely voluntary basis, to change seats solely on ground of their gender.

Her lawsuit is being supported by an Israeli organization that successfully sued public buses to force them to end discrimination against female passengers. From a PR point-of-view, this is as bad a passenger as can be that El Al has to face in court. She is an 81-year old practicing Jew who fled the Nazi invasion of Belgium in 1941. She even forced the ultra-Orthodox passenger to admit the Torah does not explicitly ban males from sitting next to females, that it is only their interpretation that says so.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-al-orthodox-gender-discrimination

[Edited 2016-04-01 08:16:56]
 
ec99
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:18 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:10 pm

If I had to guess I would say this is an official unofficial policy at El Al. I am guessing they don't keep anything in writing that could be used against them in a court of law but their standard policy is to ask the woman to move instead of the man.

Does anyone know how Saudia or Kuwait airlines deals with issues like these? Seeks like they could end up with similar issues.
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1765
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:12 pm

Sucks to fly El Al, not the first one of these by any means.
@DadCelo
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1265
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:27 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Thread starter):

Her lawsuit is being supported by an Israeli organization that successfully sued public buses to force them to end discrimination against female passengers. From a PR point-of-view, this is as bad a passenger as can be that El Al has to face in court. She is an 81-year old practicing Jew who fled the Nazi invasion of Belgium in 1941. She even forced the ultra-Orthodox passenger to admit the Torah does not explicitly ban males from sitting next to females, that it is only their interpretation that says so.

Ouch. Good luck to her, this sort of crap needs to stop.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2937
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:33 pm

Quoting ec99 (Reply 1):
Does anyone know how Saudia or Kuwait airlines deals with issues like these? Seeks like they could end up with similar issues.

I always find ironic that the religious extremists from many different religions get along the least yet seem to have the most in common...
 
opticalilyushin
Posts: 778
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:36 pm

Hmm I think the complaint is justified, but making a court case out of it sounds a little extreme.

It would not surprise me if such airlines still have policies like this in place. One of the airlines I work with (as an example) still prohibits adult males from sitting next to an Unaccompanied Minor, even if the flight is full. Despite personally being more than happy to not have to sit beside an annoying child when flying, I think the reasons behind the the policy are shocking!
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4939
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:38 pm

I hope she gets everything she desires.

Quoting opticalilyushin (Reply 5):

Hmm I think the complaint is justified, but making a court case out of it sounds a little extreme.

Court cases, bad PR and damages are what makes companies alter their behaviour - otherwise they could simply ignore the issue and continue with their actions.
 
bobdino
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:55 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:39 pm

Quoting opticalilyushin (Reply 5):
Hmm I think the complaint is justified, but making a court case out of it sounds a little extreme.

The goal of the court case is just to change El Al's policies. From the article:

Quote:
Rabinowitz attended a public meeting at which Anat Hoffman, IRAC’s executive director, spoke about the organisation’s successful campaign to end gender segregation on Israel’s public buses at the demand of the ultra-Orthodox. Since IRAC won a court case on the issue, buses carry prominent notices informing passengers they may sit where they wish.

...

Rabinowitz and IRAC are seeking 50,000 shekels (£9,200) in damages and wants EL Al to publish clear staff guidelines “concerning their obligation to act in an egalitarian manner, including emphasising to the company’s aircrews that they must defend women’s rights to sit in their allocated seat, and clarifying to flight attendants that they may not acquiesce to requests by passengers wishing to change places purely for reasons of gender”.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1946
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:56 pm

I've been asked to change seats because a Muslim woman could not sit next to me (QR). Big deal, get over it. What was the FA supposed to do...tell the guy to "sit down deal with it" or attempt to move possibly a number of passengers around so that the guy would not be near any other woman?

Why is it that everyone is a victim in the modern world? The FA asked a passenger to change to a seat in the same cabin. It's not like she was demoted to coach or taken off the flight completely. Yeah, the guy was probably a jerk with his request but he could have just wanted an empty seat beside him.

Sounds like she was better off not spending any amount of time next to this guy anyway. It's amazing how a big check will solve all her pain and suffering though.

Quoting blueflyer (Thread starter):
She admits her lawsuit is not so much about monetary damage

Bull. If it's not about the money, then don't ask for any but instead simply ask that the El Al policy be changed or addressed.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5675
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:02 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):
I've been asked to change seats because a Muslim woman could not sit next to me (QR). Big deal, get over it. What was the FA supposed to do...tell the guy to "sit down deal with it" or attempt to move possibly a number of passengers around so that the guy would not be near any other woman?

Israel is a democracy. Qatar, Emirates, Saudi or Kuwait are not.
 
User avatar
andrefranca
Posts: 904
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:10 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:09 pm

These people have existed for thousands of years helping human development in many ways but seems all go down in the drain on situations like these! I hope she wins!
 
bennett123
Posts: 9607
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:14 pm

I fail to understand the meaning of the post about which states are democracies.

[Edited 2016-04-01 09:20:01]
 
User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:14 pm

What I don't understand about all of these cases is that it always seems to be the people being objected to who are asked to suffer the inconvenience of moving.

If someone objects to the people that they are seated next to, surely it would make a lot more sense to move the person doing the objecting, especially if it requires anyone to move to an "inferior" seat location. It would probably significantly reduce the number of "discrimination" cases.
 
ec99
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:18 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:24 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):
I've been asked to change seats because a Muslim woman could not sit next to me (QR). Big deal, get over it. What was the FA supposed to do...tell the guy to "sit down deal with it" or attempt to move possibly a number of passengers around so that the guy would not be near any other woman?

The problem is the slippery slope argument. What if a white man said he couldn't sit next to a black man. A straight man couldn't sit next to a gay man. I agree with you that really this shouldn't be a big problem and people just need to deal with it. My simple solution would be the complainer has to move. You don't want to sit next to a woman, you take whatever else is available. If that open seat is a middle seat in coach, put your convictions ahead of your comfort. You want to sit next to someone else, it's your problem not the problem of the person seated in their assigned seat.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):

Bull. If it's not about the money, then don't ask for any but instead simply ask that the El Al policy be changed or addressed.

I am an American lawyer but a lawsuit seeking an injunction (without damages) is probably the appropriate way to get them to change their policy. If, say AA did this, and you told them to change their policy or you would sue, they would change their policy but that agreement wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on. If they agree to change policy via court injunction, then the new policy has teeth. Also, based on my limited understanding of Israeli law, it operates more closely to the English style common law system. It is much harder to get big monetary awards then in the US. I would guess therefore this lady is going for an injunction rather than cash damages.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4939
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:38 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 11):
I fail to understand the meaning of the post about which states are democracies.

Israel gets a free pass because other countries are worse.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24251
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:50 pm

Quoting opticalilyushin (Reply 5):
One of the airlines I work with (as an example) still prohibits adult males from sitting next to an Unaccompanied Minor, even if the flight is full. Despite personally being more than happy to not have to sit beside an annoying child when flying, I think the reasons behind the the policy are shocking!

I think that is a different thread altogether and a topic we already discussed some time ago. I do understand the need for it though whether we like it or not. Airlines need to protect themselves and parents need to know their UMNRs are kept safe during travel. The majority of male passengers are not a risk but better to be safe than sorry. Ideally UMNRs should be put with another family or near them and near the crew to be kept an eye on.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:58 pm

Men are not allowed to sit next to unaccompanied children, so "discrimination" goes both ways..

In the OP's case, it seems more appropriate to move the offended man.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5675
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:16 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 11):
I fail to understand the meaning of the post about which states are democracies.
Quoting moo (Reply 14):
Israel gets a free pass because other countries are worse.

No, she can sue El Al because after all Israel is a democracy.

"jetblastdubai" made the comparison with Qatar Airways, but QR belongs to a tyranny, a dictatorship where there are no free courts and thousands of foreigners are enslaved.

So there is no point to compare. If that woman would have flown in Qatar Airways she would need to shut up... because maybe she would be the one who would end up in jail!
 
A332DTW
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:54 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:28 pm

It's amazing how a post on El Al, El Al alone, somehow immediately involves some other Middle Eastern Arab country from post 1 and on. And of course by 17 there's already a "Israel is holier than thou because all these other Arab states are monsters"... give me a break. Keep it on topic much?

Anyway, I digress. I would imagine this sort of thing happens more often than not. It would be nice if the company had some sort of option during booking where an Orthodox Jew can request an open seat next to him for an additional cost. Sort of like obese individuals having to purchase an extra seat on some carriers.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4939
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:30 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 17):
No, she can sue El Al because after all Israel is a democracy.

"jetblastdubai" made the comparison with Qatar Airways, but QR belongs to a tyranny, a dictatorship where there are no free courts and thousands of foreigners are enslaved.

So there is no point to compare. If that woman would have flown in Qatar Airways she would need to shut up... because maybe she would be the one who would end up in jail!

The nationality of the airline means sod all, she could have filed the suit in New York (the originating city) - or did you miss the fracas between Kuwait Airways and the US Transportation Department over the refusal of said airline to carry Israeli passengers? The nationality of the airline didnt stop legal action being taken, so the highlighting of the nationality of the airline in specific comparison with other countries is utterly ridiculous.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5675
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:59 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 19):
The nationality of the airline means sod all, she could have filed the suit in New York (the originating city) - or did you miss the fracas between Kuwait Airways and the US Transportation Department over the refusal of said airline to carry Israeli passengers? The nationality of the airline didnt stop legal action being taken, so the highlighting of the nationality of the airline in specific comparison with other countries is utterly ridiculous.

It makes a big difference. This woman apparently lives in Israel, she flew from NYC to TLV and then she sued El-Al without any major issue. Now if she was a woman living in Qatar (imagine flying JFK-DOH), would she sue QR? Of course the KW has nothing to do; the woman was American, she was living in the US and never ever boarded the aircraft or was in Kuwait. Big difference.

So to simplify, people feel only free to "sue" Kuwait Airways or whichever Arab carrier when they are in a Western democracy.

[Edited 2016-04-01 11:00:16]
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1765
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:09 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):

I've been asked to change seats because a Muslim woman could not sit next to me (QR). Big deal, get over it. What was the FA supposed to do...tell the guy to "sit down deal with it" or attempt to move possibly a number of passengers around so that the guy would not be near any other woman?

Why is it that everyone is a victim in the modern world? The FA asked a passenger to change to a seat in the same cabin. It's not like she was demoted to coach or taken off the flight completely. Yeah, the guy was probably a jerk with his request but he could have just wanted an empty seat beside him.

Sounds like she was better off not spending any amount of time next to this guy anyway. It's amazing how a big check will solve all her pain and suffering though.

What even is this? No one should ever be asked to move because someone else has a problem. The guy should have been relocated since he is the one with the issue.

It is not about being a victim, it is about what is right.
@DadCelo
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1946
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:16 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 17):
"jetblastdubai" made the comparison with Qatar Airways

I wasn't comparing El Al to Qatar. I only mentioned QR because that's the airline I was on at the time I was asked to move and I'm guessing that ME carriers get requests like this more often and western carriers. A woman refused to sit next to me for religious reasons, the FA asked me to move and I did. No lawsuit required.

I was in MUC at the time so who knows what local laws would apply if there were a legitimate issue.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3571
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:27 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):

If your that orthodox then you need to inform the airline when you book that you cannot sit next to a woman. US airlines for years have had delays leaving New York due to groups of orthodox men traveling together never let the airline know till they boarded. Then the airline has to work to to move dozens of passengers around. If they had known at booking they would have already been seated and it would not be a problem.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5675
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:30 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 22):
I wasn't comparing El Al to Qatar. I only mentioned QR because that's the airline I was on at the time I was asked to move and I'm guessing that ME carriers get requests like this more often and western carriers. A woman refused to sit next to me for religious reasons, the FA asked me to move and I did. No lawsuit required.

I was in MUC at the time so who knows what local laws would apply if there were a legitimate issue.

You were travelling MUC-DOH. Yes you could have choose to disembark in MUC and sue QR. So you stay in a democracy (Germany). Now if you would have flown to DOH, would you sue Qatar Airways while in Doha? Would you take it to Western newspapers?

This lady indeed flew to TLV and then she sued El Al and she speaks to the NYT from her house in Jerusalem.

Umm I see a big difference... however other posters like "moo" do not ""want"" to see it... I wonder why.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:36 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 12):
What I don't understand about all of these cases is that it always seems to be the people being objected to who are asked to suffer the inconvenience of moving.

If someone objects to the people that they are seated next to, surely it would make a lot more sense to move the person doing the objecting, especially if it requires anyone to move to an "inferior" seat location. It would probably significantly reduce the number of "discrimination" cases.

I've heard of many problems with men being unwilling to sit next to women on flights to Tel Aviv or other places. This isn't just on El Al. Here is an article from the New York Times about this problem:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/10/us...assignments-and-religion.html?_r=0

I've heard of flights with large numbers of ultra orthadox men being unwilling to sit next to women and refusing to sit. I've heard of flights delayed 30-60 minutes as flight attendants try to sort the mess out. In the days of many airlines charging for seat assignments, people feel entitled to the seat they book and the ultra orthadox men feel entitled to have the airline accommodate their religious beliefs. It is a situation where no one wins and everyone ends up late and unhappy.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
SKAirbus
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:40 pm

As an atheist the way religious people behave disgusts me beyond belief. If he had such a problem sitting next to a woman then HE should have moved, not her. It just goes to show how the extremes of every religion resort to vile sexism and misogyny. I hope EL AL get burnt for this.
Base: BRU
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5805
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:45 pm

It must go both ways. If a orthodox believer can request that a woman does not sit next to him, then a secular woman should request that an orthodox believer not sit next to her.

But as the woman is not religious, the FAs will not act on her behalf. So it's always the secular person who has to move.

It's very simliar to a restaurant where smoking is allowed. I cannot bother a smoker with my non-smoking behaviour. But I as a non-smoker will be bothered by somebody who smokes next to me.

El Al should introduce a special class (call it Y-) for non-disabled people with special needs.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
coyoteguy
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 8:58 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:53 pm

Quite a few years ago, I flew from LGW - TLV on BA. The aircraft was a DC-10 (as I said, quite a few years ago)... with 2-5-2 configuration. I was in the aisle seat of the 5; next to me was an orthodox jew, and in the middle seat next to him, a woman. He wanted to switch seats with me as he "couldn't" sit next to a woman. I refused. As I recall, he ended up moving elsewhere on the aircraft, but only after making a huge scandal and accusing me of all kinds of things...
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1946
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:54 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 23):
If your that orthodox then you need to inform the airline when you book that you cannot sit next to a woman

I hope you're referring the man in the article and not me. I'm about as stereo-typical western as you can get. It was a muslim woman that couldn't sit next to me. Didn't bother me in the least to be re-seated.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 24):
Would you take it to Western newspapers?

Why would anyone go to a newspaper for being re-seated on a flight? Have we really sunk to that level of civility?
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1765
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:05 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 29):
Why would anyone go to a newspaper for being re-seated on a flight? Have we really sunk to that level of civility?

To shame the airline for either their policies that allow this, or to make sure they address the issue if no such policy is in place. She has absolutely every right to be upset and want some sort of solution from the airline.

And about the money, most business will only change when it hurts their pockets, and going to the media makes them look bad. Sad that we have to go to these lengths to get things fixed but that's the world we live in.
@DadCelo
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5675
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:20 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 29):
Why would anyone go to a newspaper for being re-seated on a flight? Have we really sunk to that level of civility?

You are avoiding my question. The reality is that in Dubai or Doha you are not free to speak. Period. Of course then you can have a Ministry of Happiness. George Orwell would be proud of it.
 
Vulindlela
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2002 10:34 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:03 pm

Shouldn't it have been on the Orthodox person to move and not the woman? Why are others inconvenienced by someone's religious restrictions? If he can't sit next to a woman, he should find somewhere else on the plane to sit.
"If you take everything I've accomplished in my entire life and condense it down into 1 day, it looks decent!"
 
coyoteguy
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 8:58 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:20 pm

Quoting Vulindlela (Reply 32):
Shouldn't it have been on the Orthodox person to move and not the woman? Why are others inconvenienced by someone's religious restrictions? If he can't sit next to a woman, he should find somewhere else on the plane to sit.

  
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1770
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:55 pm

Well, if she wasn't forced to move then I think she has no case. They asked if she would mind moving and she moved. Anyway, don't a lot of airlines discriminate against men by asking them to move so that they are not sitting next to children? I think that is far more insulting, because then you are being treated as a potential pedophile just because you are a man.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:09 pm

Quoting Vulindlela (Reply 32):

Shouldn't it have been on the Orthodox person to move and not the woman? Why are others inconvenienced by someone's religious restrictions? If he can't sit next to a woman, he should find somewhere else on the plane to sit.

When an airplane is full, and someone wants to move, there will always be another person that is inconvenienced. I have heard of people demanding to be accommodated but not willing to give up an aisle seat. Usually things go fine, but if you get a lot of people with strict demands, it gets difficult. Some of the ultra orthodox are not as familiar with normal procedures since they don't fly frequently.

While I understand religious convictions, people need to be respectful of others.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Ryanair01
Posts: 486
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:27 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:47 pm

This kind of thing happens every day. A smart gate agent (or check in agent if they've deposited luggage) will check to see if they've been sat next to a women and reallocate seat assignments to avoid this kind of embarrassing situation.

Sometimes with the best will in the world this won't happen and then it falls down to the cabin crew to handle this sensitively. It sounds like the crew handled this badly. Generally in this scenario, look for two men sat by each other, ask one of them to move (get a stewardess to do it, man will more likely comply), move orthodox gent to that seat, no one gets offended.

I'm surprised by El Al in this case, as they are pros at balancing this kind of problem normally.
 
N867DA
Posts: 1131
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:57 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 18):
I would imagine this sort of thing happens more often than not. It would be nice if the company had some sort of option during booking where an Orthodox Jew can request an open seat next to him for an additional cost. Sort of like obese individuals having to purchase an extra seat on some carriers.

I'm sure they're welcome to purchase two seats like some heftier passengers do. Airline gets the revenue (and carries less weight), everyone still goes to heaven, and flight attendants don't have to solve the fox chicken and bag of grains puzzle with passengers.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
aa87
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:11 pm

This topic has been debated ad nauseum on a/net. I reiterate my wisdom (as a US lawyer and who has friends/relatives who will not sit next to women for religious reasons):

1) Everyone be respectful of every other human being. Golden rule.

2) Avoid judging people's religious values or automatically equating it with discrimination. Not my value, but some orthodox men avoid contact with women bc orthodoxy teaches respect for gender differences and the social risks of easy commingling. May seem idiotic to most but its not irrational. And those men will happily sit next to an (unarmed) gay male Arab jihadist; so lighten up on the discrimination stuff.

3) If your religious values are unfamiliar to most of the world, and reasonably seems offensive or discriminatory, take the time and effort to respectfully explain as necessary to FA/female pax and then ask if any accommodation might be possible. And mention 4-5 times how grateful you would be and how terribly sorry you are for any inconvenience. Chances are pretty high you'll get same result w no rancor.

4) If you can't or won't follow 3), don't complain or be surprised that others think you're a boor or a jerk or worse. And then project that onto all other orthodox men.

My two cents. Signing off now for sabbath, cheers.
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:15 pm

Quoting gatibosgru (Reply 30):
She has absolutely every right to be upset and want some sort of solution from the airline.

As annoying and stupid as those so-called "religious" requests to have other passengers re-seated might be, this woman has actually no case at all. She was not forced to move and could have refused. Then certainly the "religious" guy would have made a scandal (like the one in Coyoteguy's DC-10) and have been re-seated himself...

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 26):
I hope EL AL get burnt for this.

First, El Al like most Airlines is truly trying its best to avoid all kind of conflicts aboard its planes. Flights to Israel are often considered more "complicated" than most other flights, and the supposedly religious wishes of not seating next to a woman are one of the complications. In this case, the woman agreed to move, even if she was not happy. But one thing is sure: if she had said "I don't want to move to another seat", the crew would not have forced her to do so - and they would have tried to find another solution. But we should not forget that the number one priority for the crew and for the airline is to make sure the plane takes off ONTIME - not to resolve philosophical questions and social issues...

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 27):
El Al should introduce a special class (call it Y-) for non-disabled people with special needs.

Ha ha excellent   ! non-disabled people with special needs aka the insane (the משוגענער class).
However, as almost every passenger to TLV has "special needs" of his own, it won't change much....
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
pa747sp
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:41 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:39 pm

The pax who asked for the lady to be moved does not have to fly. If he believes he cannot travel if he is sat next to a woman, than he needs to make alternate travel arrangements. He can ask another male friend to travel with him, charter an aircraft, walk, or stay at home. Because his beliefs are that he should never sit next to a woman, the onus is on him to ensure that he is never put in this position.

Therefore, El Al (if they did indeed act on his request) are clearly at fault, and should be held liable. They are prioritising his need to sit apart from a woman over the woman right not to be humiliated, inconvenienced or upset. She had no way of avoiding this situation, and it is not based on her beliefs

If El Al believes they have a duty, for social or cultural reasons, to accommodate male passengers requests for separate seating, they can set up a 'male only' area on each flight. The Israeli government could subsidise it.

Travelling by air on a scheduled flight is one of the benefits of belonging to the human race. The trade off is that you don't get to choose which other members of the human race also make use of this benefit. When people complain about babies crying on flights, the same thing applies. If you want to benefit from the low cost of air travel when using a scheduled flight (as opposed to chartering your own plane), then you don't get to choose who else also travels.
Nothing seems as good since the VC10.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2585
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:10 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):
What was the FA supposed to do...tell the guy to "sit down deal with it" or attempt to move possibly a number of passengers around so that the guy would not be near any other woman?

The proper move from the FA would have been to grant the guy's request to not sit by a female by moving at least two passengers. First, move the woman to a better seat. Then find a 400 lb male who smells bad in the back of the plane, and move him to the newly vacated seat. Everyone wins.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):
If it's not about the money, then don't ask for any but instead simply ask that the El Al policy be changed or addressed.

It's all about the money. Or she and her lawyer wouldn't be asking for money, or would make it clear that they want any and all compensation given directly from El Al to charity instead of them. Hopefully she gets nothing.
 
blueflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:11 am

Quoting todaReisinger (Reply 39):
As annoying and stupid as those so-called "religious" requests to have other passengers re-seated might be, this woman has actually no case at all. She was not forced to move and could have refused.

Her issue isn't exactly, or entirely, that she had to move, but that she was asked. If a male passenger has an issue with sitting next to a woman, why is the woman asked to move? She isn't the problem, the paranoid, self-centered, weak-willed male passenger who refuses to sit next to her is the problem. If another suitable seat cannot be found for him, he needs to be offloaded, period. No other passenger should be inconvenienced for his feigned comfort.

If El Al indeed has an official, or officially unofficial, policy to ask female passengers to move to accommodate ultra-Orthodox Jews, as public buses used to have, the policy needs to end immediately and flight attendants need to be instructed that only the passengers who refuse to take their assigned seats ought to be asked to find another one.

If I, as a white male, told a flight attendant that my religion forbids me from seating next to a racial minority passenger, do we seriously expect that passenger to be asked to move for my convenience?
 
User avatar
Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:05 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 26):
As an atheist the way religious people behave disgusts me beyond belief.

I'm a Christian. I'm not "religious", and I respect everyone regardless of what the differences are. Differences are what make us unique.
For some reason, every atheist I've ever met has erupted with self-righteous intolerance when they ask me what I believe    I don't expect you to be any different.

Quoting blueflyer (Thread starter):

An Israeli female passenger is suing El Al for discrimination because she was asked by a flight attendant to move seats in order not to be next to an ultra-orthodox passenger. She claims she agreed to move because she felt she had no alternative but El Al claims the flight attendant informed her the request was purely optional.

At the end of the flight, she told the captain she felt she had been insulted by the flight attendant for asking her to move solely based on her gender, to which the captain allegedly replied it was company policy, not an action of the flight attendant's own will.

“The man had no other reason to complain than my gender – and that’s unlawful discrimination. It’s no different than if a person of another religion had said: ‘I don’t want to sit next to a Jew.’ And I don’t believe El Al would move a person in those circumstance.”

She admits her lawsuit is not so much about monetary damage as it is about forcing El Al to change their policy, if such a policy does exist (the airline denies it), and to instruct its flight attendants that female passengers cannot be asked, even on a purely voluntary basis, to change seats solely on ground of their gender.

Her lawsuit is being supported by an Israeli organization that successfully sued public buses to force them to end discrimination against female passengers. From a PR point-of-view, this is as bad a passenger as can be that El Al has to face in court. She is an 81-year old practicing Jew who fled the Nazi invasion of Belgium in 1941. She even forced the ultra-Orthodox passenger to admit the Torah does not explicitly ban males from sitting next to females, that it is only their interpretation that says so.

Regardless of what happened, intolerance is intolerance. I hope this issue can be resolved soon.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:51 am

Quoting pa747sp (Reply 40):
Therefore, El Al (if they did indeed act on his request) are clearly at fault, and should be held liable. They are prioritising his need to sit apart from a woman over the woman right not to be humiliated, inconvenienced or upset. She had no way of avoiding this situation, and it is not based on her beliefs

Agree completely. This has been going on for a while and if wasn't socially expectable in Israel, it would have been challenged long ago by someone I else I am sure.

No religion should dictate who gets to sit next who on a private plane. Period. Could you imagine the media and political firestorm if Muslims refused to sit next to "infidels" of another religion?
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:12 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:15 am

Quoting aa87 (Reply 38):
And those men will happily sit next to an (unarmed) gay male Arab jihadist; so lighten up on the discrimination stuff.

Is it commonplace for passengers on El Al to enquire of their seat neighbours whether they are gay Arab jihadists?

If it is true that some men choose not to sit next to a woman out of "respect" for women, surely they should be the one to request to be moved, if possible. They should not ask or expect the woman to move and then seek to justify it on religious grounds. It's simply bad manners. (I also believe the reverse situation where a woman might not wish to sit next to a man. It is the person with the problem who should ask to be reseated if possible. They should not expect someone else to move in order for themselves to feel comfortable.)

Further, the Guardian reports that the seats were separated by a screen. The woman involved was 81. What possible risk could arise from "commingling?" It's not as if it is likely that she would climb over the screen to sexually assault the man or that he would be contaminated by menstrual discharge.

And yes, it is discrimination. The question is whether it is lawful or not. The law suit may help to provide an answer.

[Edited 2016-04-01 21:23:35]
A man may learn wisdom even from a foe - Aristophanes
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:54 am

Yawn.
All this discrimination and PC talk of 2016 is going to make for an awfully boring monolithic world soon.
And the people screaming the loudest will complain the hardest, when that time eventually arrives. They will wake up one day and discover all the different cultures (and their quirky differences and unfairness) they so loved to explore back in the day will have vanished.
Congratulations! You boring, unimaginative foolish sheep.
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:12 am

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:50 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 46):
You boring, unimaginative foolish sheep

Funnily enough, it is usually those who are opposed to laws against adverse discrimination who most loudly fulminate against diversity and multiculturalism. They shriek that those who come to our countries should adopt our values, yet at the same time shriek against the values of other countries and expect to be exempt if they visit those countries.

Those who advocate anti-discrimination laws usually do so because they recognise that people are different, not because they want homogeneity. They simply want people to be able to live their lives without facing obstacles put in their way simply because they happen to be female or profess a different faith (insofar as that faith does not adversely impact others).

For example, those who argued in favour of assisted boarding being offered by airlines did not typically insist that every passenger should be forced to use a wheelchair.

As this is an aviation thread, what happens if a male pilot for KL decides for whatever reason he doesn't want to work alongside a female pilot simply because she is a woman, who should be reassigned? The man or the woman? I suppose it would have to be the woman for fear that we all become "bored" and any other solution would be "unimaginative".

[Edited 2016-04-01 23:28:06]
A man may learn wisdom even from a foe - Aristophanes
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5675
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:16 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 47):

Spot on. But what to expect in a forum where most posters are male, white Caucasian, Christian, straight, from a wealthy country like the US and likely well-off? They have never suffered any kind of discrimination; they are most likely the ones to keep down the rest of humanity.

Anyway kudos for this woman. As for those Haredi they should start a new carrier with the Wahhabis, they would get along well.

[Edited 2016-04-01 23:17:10]
 
N1120A
Posts: 26562
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: El Al Sued For Discrimination

Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:54 am

I'm actually surprised. LY has made news for being heavy handed with Ultra-Orthodox jerks like this before.

Quoting United787 (Reply 4):

I always find ironic that the religious extremists from many different religions get along the least yet seem to have the most in common.

Beautifully said.

Quoting opticalilyushin (Reply 5):
Hmm I think the complaint is justified, but making a court case out of it sounds a little extreme.

No, that is how you get policies changed.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):
What was the FA supposed to do...tell the guy to "sit down deal with it"

Yes. That is exactly what they should do.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 27):
But as the woman is not religious

Actually, if you read the article, she is. She just isn't a complete fanatic.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos