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ozglobal
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AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:28 pm

After the nuclear deal between the West and Iran, flights are being re-instated to Tehran. In this context, FA's are expected to wear a veil for that destination. For once, I side with the AF flight attendants. We have got to draw a line and stop cowering to Islamo-facisim. We do not require muslim women to strip their veils and vestment on arrival in Europe (even if we draw the line in France and Belgium at the full face covering). Why should we accept double standards. There are so many other areas were the West must stop this cowardly giving of ground to a culture with no concept of pluralism or freedom of conscience.

In French:
http://www.leparisien.fr/laparisienn...-air-france-02-04-2016-5681193.php
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mercure1
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:39 pm

This is nonsense and has nothing to do with clothing!

This is all a cabin union issue! They desire that company designate Iran flights be made voluntary, not part of regular bid assignments.

Remember AF operates to other markets like Saudi Arabia where crews are compliant with respectful clothing.

[Edited 2016-04-02 07:40:44]
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ozglobal
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:48 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 1):
Remember AF operates to other markets like Saudi Arabia where crews are compliant with respectful clothing.

That's not what the article states: it says the problem doesn't exist on current flights such as Saudi Arabia as although a long dress is required, there is no obligation to cover the head for non-Saudi women.

Quote:
La problématique du voile n'existe pas pour d'autres vols actuellement. En Arabie saoudite, par exemple, les hôtesses de l'air doivent se vêtir d'une « abaya » (robe longue qui couvre tout le corps), mais il n'existe pas d'obligation de se voiler le visage, contrairement aux femmes saoudiennes.


I'm as cynical as you about AF unions, but sometimes they can have a point.
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G500
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:49 pm

I give that flight attendant kudos for doing that

I hope more and more follow her example
 
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OA260
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:54 pm

Although when they land in Iran they should comply with local laws. When in Rome and all that. If they were being asked to wear it on French Domestics then I would say they had a point but when international cabin crew fly to a various number of countries with varied cultures and rules then putting on a veil for that short duration they are there is hardly an issue. If they dont like it then maybe they are in the wrong job. Many other airlines flying into Iran do not have an issue with it.

On the flip side if France wants to demand IR crew remove their veils when landing on French soil then that is their right too.
 
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mercure1
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:07 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 2):
I'm as cynical as you about AF unions, but sometimes they can have a point.

Here this article mentions what union desire:
Iran to be a voluntary destination without any harm, pay deduction or impact on schedules for those cabin crew that do not wish to service Iran route.

http://www.air-journal.fr/2016-04-02...nt-de-porter-le-voile-5160712.html

This would be quite a coup of company gave in as such voluntary markets are really only during war times and employed recently in some Africa markets, but certainly not a normal peaceful location like Tehran.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 2):
That's not what the article states: it says the problem doesn't exist on current flights such as Saudi Arabia as although a long dress is required, there is no obligation to cover the head for non-Saudi women.

For AF crew remain in Saudi are given abaya when they arrive at terminal and wear it until hotel.

[Edited 2016-04-02 08:09:41]
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Aesma
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:08 pm

To be clear it's not about wearing a veil during the flight but on the ground in Iran. Since this is local law, there is clearly a problem. However the female F/As are morally right, and I'm sure French courts would side with them if AF tried to punish them for this. What I see happening is that only men, and female F/As that agree to wear the veil, will be rostered on the flight.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 1):
crews are compliant with respectful clothing

Please no BS political correctness. Call it a neutral thing like "islamic dress".

It's not respectful clothing, au contraire, it's degrading !
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LAXintl
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:17 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
We have got to draw a line and stop cowering to Islamo-facisim. We do not require muslim women to strip their veils and vestment on arrival in Europe (even if we draw the line in France and Belgium at the full face covering). Why should we accept double standards. There are so many other areas were the West must stop this cowardly giving of ground to a culture with no concept of pluralism or freedom of conscience.

Non sense.

Making such comments and espousing one society is somehow better than the other is exactly part of the problem.

How about simply learn to accept and respect other cultures and customs?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 4):
Although when they land in Iran they should comply with local laws. When in Rome and all that.

  
Quoting Aesma (Reply 6):
Since this is local law, there is clearly a problem.

   

What problem would that be?

As crew member of a global airline one certainly is expected to be able to comply with local regulations. Would crew members not cover up appropriately when visiting the Vatican?
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Boeing744
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:17 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 1):
This is all a cabin union issue! They desire that company designate Iran flights be made voluntary, not part of regular bid assignments.

I kinda understand why the union would want this destination to be voluntary for the women. I assume they will have to overnight in Tehran. I think an easy solution is just offering 1.25x pay for this route and make it voluntary. That should attract sufficient volunteers...
 
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scbriml
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:23 pm

Help me with my poor French here. Are we talking about headscarf (hijab) or veil? I'm not aware of any requirement for women to wear veils in Iran. Yes, many women there wear the hijab or chador, but it's seems quite rare to see women wearing veils to cover their face.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Demonstration_of_Hijab_%26_modesty_in_Nishapur-_July_12_2013_09.JPG
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ozglobal
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:31 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
We have got to draw a line and stop cowering to Islamo-facisim. We do not require muslim women to strip their veils and vestment on arrival in Europe (even if we draw the line in France and Belgium at the full face covering). Why should we accept double standards. There are so many other areas were the West must stop this cowardly giving of ground to a culture with no concept of pluralism or freedom of conscience.

Non sense.

Making such comments and espousing one society is somehow better than the other is exactly part of the problem.

How about simply learn to accept and respect other cultures and customs?

Islamic cultures seek to impose their standards 'at home' AND abroad. In the West, they aggressively use uniquely Western religious liberty and anti-discrimination previsions, provisions they would never ever support in their own countries, to disingenuously argue to impose their standards in Europe. I have a 1000 examples. A small gesture to oppose this is met with cries by some of 'non-sense' and that we who question are 'part of the problem.' No we are just stating objective facts. Those who would like to pretend there is not a culture war in flight and that everything will somehow 'be all right' if we just cave and be 'respectful' of Islamic wishes have a huge shock coming. I would prefer to spare you that as much as possible, and have the debate now, without specious arguments that are effectively the surrender of freedom of speech (and in turn all our other freedoms for that matter).

[Edited 2016-04-02 08:33:41]
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persiangulf93
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:33 pm

As a flight attendant working for a global company like Air France, you got to respect local laws of other countries!

If you can't do that, you're doing the wrong job, you're there to give service to passengers, not to be a human rights activists or whatever! One might see the headscarf as discrimination, but for many it's not and it should be respected! Iranians can decide for themselves if it's discriminatory or not, we don't need the French to teach us lessons.

If you're in Iran, you should respect the laws, as simple as that! If you can't, than stay way please!

In the past Air France flew to Tehran with not a single problem, yet now they're complaining?!
Airlines like Lufthansa, Air France, Alitalia, Austrian and etc. all comply with the Islamic dress code in Iran, without a single issue.

As an Iranian myself, I honestly don't care if Air France would suspend their flights to IKA because of this, it leaves more room for IranAir to add more frequencies to Paris. It will only benefit the Iranian carriers and economy, which is great!

[Edited 2016-04-02 09:07:32]
 
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OA260
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:34 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
but it's seems quite rare to see women wearing veils to cover their face.

This a guide including examples. :


http://triptopersia.com/iran-practical-guides/dress-code
 
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persiangulf93
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:39 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter):
We have got to draw a line and stop cowering to Islamo-facisim. We do not require muslim women to strip their veils and vestment on arrival in Europe (even if we draw the line in France and Belgium at the full face covering). Why should we accept double standards.

They are only required to put on a headscarf once they land in IKA.

Those are the laws in Iran, which should be respected. It has nothing to do with a single word you've said.

If you care so much about Islamo-fascism and are against double standards, tell your western leaders to cut all ties with Saudi Arabia first, which we all know is behind 90% of all terrorism in the world.

[Edited 2016-04-02 09:06:11]
 
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persiangulf93
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:44 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
but it's seems quite rare to see women wearing veils to cover their face.

In Iran it's very rare to cover the face, nobody does it.

here is a picture of KLM F/A at IKA, Tehran.



As you can see, only the hair is covered, not the entire body!
 
ozglobal
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:45 pm

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 15):
If you care so much about Islamo-fascism and are against double standards, tell your western leaders to cut all ties with Saudi Arabia first, which we all know is behind 90% of all terrorism in the world.

You seem to live in Belgium. Are they not also YOUR Western leaders?
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persiangulf93
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:46 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 17):
You seem to live in Belgium. Are they not also YOUR Western leaders?

I live in Iran, buddy. But since this is an American website, Iran was excluded from the list of countries I could chose from!
 
ozglobal
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:50 pm

Quoting jnev3289 (Reply 14):
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 11):

The bigotry/ethnocentrism is real

Sorry, but that's too easy and not an argument. The west is promoting and protecting a pluralistic society made possible by values of freedom of conscience, religion and the mutual respect of cultural values that are not in conflict with such a society. Clearly, certain Islamic cultural and religious values are in conflict with such a pluralistic and open society. My stating this may be uncomfortable for you, but calling me 'bigot and ethnocentrist' does not make it less true.
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:01 pm

Why is the talk here about a veil? A veil would cover the face. The talk is about a headscarf.

I know the article has in the headline le voile, but switches in the article itself to du port du foulard.

It makes quite a difference.
 
ozglobal
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:03 pm

Quoting jnev3289 (Reply 20):

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 19):

Whatever you have to tell yourself to help you sleep at night...

Can you let us in on how you see these questions or are you content with name calling? It's supposed to be a debate.
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:17 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 24):

Wow. And I thought the other guy was bad. Islam = cannibalism now Phew... Time for a break from this site I think
 
guyanam
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:22 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 11):

Need some clarification here. Are you suggesting that Muslims in western nations, who choose to dress in their attire, according to their cultural norms, should NOT be allowed to do so?

Or are you suggesting that those who arrive in western societies try to enforce their norms on others.


.Societies where people let people live as they wish, provided that their behaviors don't harm others, are healthier than those which enforce their cultural norms on others. This is not being PC.

There is a reason why Paris and Brussels have an "immigrant problem", and NYC and Toronto don't.
 
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:23 pm

I love it how Westerners are always shouting that people coming to their country should adapt to their local customs and laws. Yet when it comes to women covering their hair when traveling to Islamic countries everybody is outraged..

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1g
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:24 pm

Can we please keep this thread civil? It's a topic worth debating but really it's all name calling and personal attacks now.

Personally I think if this is too much of a problem for AF and their crews they should just end the flight. Let's keep it real, it's an airline versus a government, I don't think AF is going to get their way. It's best if they keep this route voluntary with a pay increase incentive, if they wish to keep flying to Tehran.
 
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:26 pm

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 12):
If you're in Iran, you should respect the laws, as simple as that! If you can't, than stay way please!

Which is why they're requesting the route to be voluntary.
 
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persiangulf93
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:34 pm

Quoting rta (Reply 30):
Which is why they're requesting the route to be voluntary

Then why all the drama??
 
ozglobal
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:35 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 26):

We get the message. You have a long history of issues with the French. I would even agree with some of the examples you give as hypocritical double standards of convenience. As for being French, I happen to be an expat living here from Australia, but that should be irrelevant. None of my comments focused on Iran in particular. That is your emphasis and perception. My complaint was in relation to the ever greater giving of ground locally to every more demanding Islamic standards in general.

Examples of Islamic community demands frequently granted in France :

- Not only must halal meal options be always available in secular canteens in places of work, but increasing there must be a ban on all pork products even being eaten by others, lest muslims see and be offended.
- Girls of muslim families in secular government schools not to have male teachers, nor be required to participate in physical education
- Male obstetricians suffer regular violence from the husbands of muslim women brought to government hospitals when they touch the women in certain places due to emergency labour. Special provisions have to be made.
- There are regular complaints that the sounding of church bells is an offense and a violation of muslim communities' religious liberty

There are hundreds more examples here. this is the sort of thing I'm taking about.
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persiangulf93
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:35 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 26):
This is very typically French behavior and of the Western nations, I've always found France in particular to be the most hypocritical. That's is really saying something.

The French post Iran deal, like to ignore all the Islamic Arabs countries and focus exclusively on Iran for its Islamic culture issues. For Iranians like me PersianGulf93, we know how absurd this is because Iran has a 2 millennial plus history of being Zoroastrian (unlike Egypt, Turkey, Arabs) and consequently its the least Islamic of the Islamic states culturally. Case in point

- Rouhani delegation requested no wine at State Dinner with Hollande. French cried foul. (They've been doing this for Arabs for 30 years)
- French authorities closed down an entire PUBLIC beach for a Saudi Royal lest he be exposed to un Islamic topless sun bathers.
- The veil Iran requires isnt a veil. Its head scarf. Even heads of state wear it when meeting with Iran Pres. It is not required on board the plane.
-- Having flown AF personally out of Riyadh, I know the French are already wearing long black abayas sans head scarf in KSA. Iran does not require this and FA's can even get rental cars and DRIVE.

So basically Iran is less restrictive than KSA, but because they don't buy Eurofighters, all of the French media and gov slam them even though they have consented much more for the Arabs. Quite pathetic.
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 26):
I have told my countrymen many times. I don't trust the French. Cancel their CDG flights, terminate the Puegot contract and the French contract for IKA. Iran can get what she needs from Asia without the duplicity, Arab ass kissing, and dishonesty. France is for Airbus and wine. That's it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I agree with every single word you've said!
 
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:39 pm

As long as they're on the plane, they do should things the way they want.

Now if they're off the plane, I can see catering to local customs.
 
chicawgo
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:39 pm

Quoting jnev3289 (Reply 25):

Wow. And I thought the other guy was bad. Islam = cannibalism now Phew... Time for a break from this site I think


He's giving an analogy to make a point! He's not calling Iranians cannibals! Come on man, either argue with actual points or just keep quiet. False accusations and personal attacks arent making you look like the hero you think you are.
 
ozglobal
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:41 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 27):

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 11):

Need some clarification here. Are you suggesting that Muslims in western nations, who choose to dress in their attire, according to their cultural norms, should NOT be allowed to do so?

Or are you suggesting that those who arrive in western societies try to enforce their norms on others.

I'm suggesting that a pluralistic society such as we have in the West is a more just and open society and that:

- we should welcome those from other societies
- Those welcomed should respect the pluralistic values of our society and refrain from behaviours that are against it such as forcing their norms on others (I gave several current examples of this in France above).

Quoting guyanam (Reply 27):
.Societies where people let people live as they wish, provided that their behaviors don't harm others, are healthier than those which enforce their cultural norms on others. This is not being PC.

Fully agree and exactly the sort of society I want to defend.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 27):
There is a reason why Paris and Brussels have an "immigrant problem", and NYC and Toronto don't.

There are many reasons, and not the simplistic slight you are implying here. If you want to discuss this, let's go.

[Edited 2016-04-02 09:51:08]
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:43 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 26):
So basically Iran is less restrictive than KSA, but because they don't buy Eurofighters, all of the French media and gov slam them even though they have consented much more for the Arabs. Quite pathetic.

   And it's not just the French, the media in the US particular has been doing exactly the same, attacking Iran constantly while very much ignoring the much worse madness going on in Saudi-Arabia, a major buyer of US made military equipment. To me it's absolutely clear that Iran is much more civilized of a country than most of Middle East's Arab states.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 32):
Examples of Islamic community demands frequently granted in France :

Yeah, apparently "when in Rome do as the Romans do" applies only to westerners, Muslim migrants can demand whatever special treatment they want in Europe and they'll get it. In modern day Europe we don't really tolerate harmful nonsense if it's spread by political movements, like Neo Nazis. Yet equally harmful nonsense can be spread in name of religion, and calling people out for that nonsense has become a bad thing to do.

This attitude is now seriously starting to threaten freedom, democracy and peace in Europe, but social justice warriors have buried their heads too deep into the sand to notice.

[Edited 2016-04-02 09:46:35]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
ozglobal
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:50 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 32):
Examples of Islamic community demands frequently granted in France :

Yeah, apparently "when in Rome do as the Romans do" applies only to westerners, Muslim migrants can demand whatever special treatment they want in Europe and they'll get it. In modern day Europe we don't really tolerate harmful nonsense if it's spread by political movements, like Neo Nazis. Yet equally harmful nonsense can be spread in name of religion, and calling people out for that nonsense has become a bad thing to do.

This attitude is now seriously starting to threaten freedom, democracy and peace in Europe, but social justice warriors have buried their heads too deep into the sand to notice.

Thank you. This was the whole point of what I wanted to say.      
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
guyanam
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:57 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 36):

Thanks for the clarification, both to me and to another poster. I agree that immigrants should be allowed to adhere to their own cultural norms, provided that these don't harm others, or interfere with the lives of others.

You gave examples of cases in Europe where some Muslim (extremists?) demand that society bend to their rules, and yet demanding their rights to practice their cultural norms in a society outside of their own. This appears hypocritical.

I can only wonder why Muslims in NYC rarely make those demands. Aside from having their religion recognized in the school system (Christianity and Judaism is recognized) we don't hear too much more. Is it because Muslims feel less under siege in NYC than they do in Europe, so are less oppositional?

I think that European attitudes have bred a backlash among some alienated Euro Muslims.

So now we have Paris, Brussels, no liquids on planes, etc. In all instances citizens of Euro nations were involved. In the last instance the person was a convert!
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:03 pm

I think they should respect the local laws, just like we expect immigrants from the Middle East and tourists to respect our laws here.
 
guyanam
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:10 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):

If you use the major US media to gauge opinion you will get the wrong impression.

The anti Muslim rage prevalent among some is a guise for a larger "anti white" sentiment. Usually peddled by xenophobes who are paranoid as the USA is barely majority white, and some of its largest cities are over 50% foreign origin (foreign born, or having foreign parents).

Your average American isn't interested in too many issues, which don't directly impact their lives, as they have too many things to concern them.

A Muslim in NYC will have fewer issues to deal with than one in Paris. And its only those who are transfixed by FOX TV who care about the Iranian deal, and no doubt dislike it, because they don't like Obama.

[Edited 2016-04-02 10:14:25]
 
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persiangulf93
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:13 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 36):
Those welcomed should respect the pluralistic values of our society and refrain from behaviours that are against it such as forcing their norms on others

The same counts for the flight attendants of Air France, when leaving the plane at IKA. so basically the French should respect the values of our society of ours as well!

[Edited 2016-04-02 10:14:26]
 
chicawgo
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:14 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 39):


I can only wonder why Muslims in NYC rarely make those demands. Aside from having their religion recognized in the school system (Christianity and Judaism is recognized) we don't hear too much more. Is it because Muslims feel less under siege in NYC than they do in Europe, so are less oppositional?

Could it also be that the vastly larger makeup of population emboldens them? The USA is 0.9% Muslim whereas France is 12%. I believe that makes quite the difference in terms of clout, political power and confidence to make demands.
 
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:20 pm

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 18):
I live in Iran, buddy. But since this is an American website, Iran was excluded from the list of countries I could chose from!

Wow, interesting! I never noticed that before, but it's quite true. Iran (and Iraq) are indeed excluded from the country list in the profile choices.

Would be nice to have a comment from A.net management - is this intentional?
 
ozglobal
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:25 pm

Quoting chicawgo (Reply 43):

Quoting guyanam (Reply 39):


I can only wonder why Muslims in NYC rarely make those demands. Aside from having their religion recognized in the school system (Christianity and Judaism is recognized) we don't hear too much more. Is it because Muslims feel less under siege in NYC than they do in Europe, so are less oppositional?

Could it also be that the vastly larger makeup of population emboldens them? The USA is 0.9% Muslim whereas France is 12%. I believe that makes quite the difference in terms of clout, political power and confidence to make demands.

         When 12% of the US population is Muslim, we'll talk again.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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persiangulf93
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:26 pm

Quoting coyoteguy (Reply 44):
Wow, interesting! I never noticed that before, but it's quite true. Iran (and Iraq) are indeed excluded from the country list in the profile choices.

Would be nice to have a comment from A.net management - is this intentional?

Iran is excluded from all American banking systems due to us being "main sponsors of terrorism" again as you can see, the regular citizen of Iran is the victim of sanctions instead of the government. As a premium account requires a credit card transaction, Iran can't be included in the list. North Korea isn't either I guess, I wonder if Cuba is...

Only the free photography account has Iran in its list.

[Edited 2016-04-02 10:28:23]
 
ozglobal
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:27 pm

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 42):

OK. I concede if we agree on the same in France, then you're right. My problem is all the concessions demanded in France like the ones is started to list.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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Aesma
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:28 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
As crew member of a global airline one certainly is expected to be able to comply with local regulations. Would crew members not cover up appropriately when visiting the Vatican?

Is visiting the Vatican part of their job ? By the way I have visited the Vatican and the dresscode is not very strict, a standard female F/A uniform (skirt and short sleeves) will do fine : no sleeveless blouses, no miniskirts, no shorts, no hats allowed.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
Help me with my poor French here. Are we talking about headscarf (hijab) or veil? I'm not aware of any requirement for women to wear veils in Iran. Yes, many women there wear the hijab or chador, but it's seems quite rare to see women wearing veils to cover their face.

It's us the French that are poor at our own language here, for some reason we call headscarves veils even when they're not in front of the face. In fact when they're in front of the face, we don't call them veils !

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 12):
Iranians can decide for themselves if it's discriminatory or not

Actually you can't, you live in a dictatorship, opponents are put in jail or killed.

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 12):
If you're in Iran, you should respect the laws, as simple as that! If you can't, than stay way please

If my company asked me to go there, I would have to think about it. Some discriminatory laws are worst than others, for me. I don't agree with Morrocco's form of government, but I go there (for work), where women aren't forced to wear a headscarf. About a third of the women working there for my company wear one, however I've noticed that no customer facing woman at the hotel does.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 26):
- Rouhani delegation requested no wine at State Dinner with Hollande. French cried foul. (They've been doing this for Arabs for 30 years)

That's untrue. When Arabs visit, they're not served alcohol, but everyone else is. Rouhani refused this.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 26):
French authorities closed down an entire PUBLIC beach for a Saudi Royal lest he be exposed to un Islamic topless sun bathers.

That's a ridiculously small beach (probably smaller than the pool inside the residence) and was done for security reason.

Still not right and caused a public outrage. Private beaches in general are not common in France, and the state tries to buy anything it doesn't own yet on the coast.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 27):
There is a reason why Paris and Brussels have an "immigrant problem", and NYC and Toronto don't.

Paris and Brussels are not even remotely similar in the way they deal with things. Brussels is very much multicultural, just like London, I don't seem to remember this making any kind of difference to terrorists. NYC and Toronto simply have much less immigrant Muslims, and not from the same countries.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 32):
Examples of Islamic community demands frequently granted in France :

- Not only must halal meal options be always available in secular canteens in places of work, but increasing there must be a ban on all pork products even being eaten by others, lest muslims see and be offended.
- Girls of muslim families in secular government schools not to have male teachers, nor be required to participate in physical education
- Male obstetricians suffer regular violence from the husbands of muslim women brought to government hospitals when they touch the women in certain places due to emergency labour. Special provisions have to be made.
- There are regular complaints that the sounding of church bells is an offense and a violation of muslim communities' religious liberty

There are hundreds more examples here. this is the sort of thing I'm taking about.

These demands exist, but I don't agree that they're frequently granted, on the contrary they rarely are, and this is done illegally, anyone suing against it would win.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
guyanam
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:30 pm

Quoting chicawgo (Reply 43):

The Detroit area has a large Muslim population, yet its not Brussels or Paris.

Dearborn, MI is 1/3 Arab, yet its not the center of Muslim zealotry.

The USA has a "live and let live" attitude towards its immigrants. Folks are too busy with their own lives, to bother with others.

So immigrants, like the rest of the population, focus on their own lives, and don't impose conditions on others. Muslims being no different.

Indeed Ted Cruz haranguing about "the need to patrol Muslim neighborhoods" rang hollow in NYC. I suspect the biggest supporters for such nonsense will be in tiny towns where they don't even know what a Muslim looks like (they can look like anybody).
 
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persiangulf93
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:31 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 47):
OK. I concede if we agree on the same in France, then you're right. My problem is all the concessions demanded in France like the ones is started to list.

I agree that Muslims should not impose their demands on western nations, that's ridiculous indeed.

But in this case, the flight attendants only have to wear a headscarf once they exit the aircraft in Iran.
 
coyoteguy
Posts: 486
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:31 pm

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 46):
Iran is excluded from all American banking systems due to us being "main sponsors of terrorism" again as you can see, the regular citizen of Iran is the victim of sanctions instead of the government. As a premium account requires a credit card transaction, Iran can't be included in the list. North Korea isn't either I guess, I wonder if Cuba is...

Only the free photography account has Iran in its list.

Ah, so is not in fact a.net policy, but rather part of US government overreach... the old story... we feel it here too in Mexico quite often    
 
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persiangulf93
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:33 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 48):
Actually you can't, you live in a dictatorship, opponents are put in jail or killed.

You are telling me how I live and teaching me about my own country? You're funny!
 
ozglobal
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:42 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 41):
A Muslim in NYC will have fewer issues to deal with than one in Paris.

There are many reasons for this and also for why NYC has a lot less cultural tension with the muslim population.

The main one is critical mass: try 0.9% vs 12% muslim population. We already have constant demands to change mainstream culture and practices just for the 12%, but those changes impact everybody. You don't have that in NYC. When you have 12% muslim population, we'll talk again.

The second reason is family re-union immigration: most muslim immigrants have come to France in extended family reunion, others born here. The creates a transplanted multigenerational sub-society, which, along with Islam's separations ethics, has a strong tendency to create large ghettos.

The third is the Old World / New Wolrd divide. I come from a 'New World' country (Australia), that is, a country built out of 19th Century colonialism, followed by mass migration from diverse nations and cultures in the 20th and 21st centuries. The US is the same. In a new world country, the bar of 'assimilation' is set very low: the mainstream culture is just a pluralistic mass of immigrants, separated only by a generation or two in their arrival. I know what this is like, having lived most of my life in Australia and some in the US and now in France.

The Old World is where a 1000s of years' old culture dominates: here, mwithout anyone specifically trying to be toxic, the bar of assimilation is naturally MUCH higher. I've lived in France for going on 14years, but as an Australian, I'll always be an 'Australian who speaks very good french and knows a great deal about the history, geography and culture' and not a Frenchman. I have to be ok with this if I choose to stay in an Old World culture and enjoy both the pros and cons.

Add the huge muslim population in France, to the ghetto effect and then finally the very high bar of assimilation that cannot be directly compared to that of New world country, and you have the VERY different context for the discussion about the compatibility of certain muslim expectations upon their host society in Europe vs in Canada or the US.

Does this make sense?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
santi319
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:45 pm

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 52):

You are telling me how I live and teaching me about my own country? You're funny!

Oh buddy, its not worth the hassle, some people based their life on what the news says. Ive had the chance to travel and actually see things for myself and well... Its very different.. Usually for the better. So don't hold your breathe expecting people to think and see for themselves...

Back to topic.. KLM has no issue using scarfs, aren't they together in this venture???
 
guyanam
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RE: AF Hostesses Refuse To Wear Veil For CDG-Tehran

Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:47 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 48):

.
The so called Muslim terrorism in France has more to do with a backlash from French citizens who feel rejected because they aren't seen as being "French" enough.

Some of those involved have included West African Muslims, and others from North Africa.

The notion of West or North African Muslims being involved in terrorism in NYC as almost nil.

The cells of radicalized Islam that we have are among those of Central Asian extraction. They bring with them their own dysfunctions coming from being Muslims in part of the former Soviet Union.

In fact domestic terrorism is more of an issue in the USA. Among the largest acts was the bombing in Oklahoma city in the 90s.

9/11 was not committed by immigrants.

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