Quoting ozglobal (Thread starter): We have got to draw a line and stop cowering to Islamo-facisim.

"I think I should be able to wear my swim shorts in the Vatican; I am tired of their Cathlo-facisim."

"I think I should be allowed to go shirtless in at Angkor Wat; I won't put up with Buddo-fascisim."

There is no reason why these arguments shouldn't be any different from wearing a scarf in Iran. Most people would understand the needs to respect the norms of the society, whenever they visit . Putting on a head scarf is hardly an act of surrender; it is an act of cultural respect. Recklessly banding-about the word "facisim" shows just how obsessive you are. Grow up and get over it.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7): Making such comments and espousing one society is somehow better than the other is exactly part of the problem. How about simply learn to accept and respect other cultures and customs?

        

Quoting guyanam (Reply 39): I think that European attitudes have bred a backlash among some alienated Euro Muslims.

   Some of those attitudes are clearly on display in this topic.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 11): Those who would like to pretend there is not a culture war in flight and that everything will somehow 'be all right' if we just cave and be 'respectful' of Islamic wishes have a huge shock coming

Your selective outrage and obsessive concerns need to be addressed somewhere other than on a forum about airlines and their people. Get help. Really.

There is no such thing as a "healthy obsession".

Quoting jnev3289 (Reply 25):

You completely missed the point.

Are we supposed to respect negative aspect of a culture just for the sake of respecting a culture? No. It makes no sense. We have to draw the line somewhere.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 53): When you have 12% muslim population, we'll talk again.

What the h... are you guys thinking letting that many in within such a relatively short amount of time? I'm sorry but with those lax immigration policies, it's like asking for trouble. We better change the immigration policies across Europe asap!

Quoting guyanam (Reply 55): Quoting Aesma (Reply 48): . The so called Muslim terrorism in France has more to do with a backlash from French citizens who feel rejected because they aren't seen as being "French" enough.

Well you seem to feel very sure about this. The problem is the intelligence services have now quite a detailed picture of who the men who perpetrated the Nov 13/15 attacks on Paris were. and what motivated them, that makes your view look less qualified, no matter how attractive it is to blame the victims, Parisians, for the attacks on themselves:

- one of them -- Bilal Hadfi, was a young French citizen living in Belgium
- two were brothers from Brussels, living a fast happy go lucky Belgian life of clubs and fun with friends and were only radicalised through their religion in the local mosque a few months before the attacks.
- two more were Iraqis who had slipped into Europe weeks before by posing as refugees, sent by ISIS

Hardly fits your neat, blame the victim, caricature, does it? All of this relates to international Islamic radicalisation of non-French, plus one Frenchman living abroad and the direct instrumentality of ISIS. "So called Muslim terrorism", you say?

Full story, if you'd like some facts:

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/21/eu...ide-paris-terror-attack/index.html

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 58): Quoting ozglobal (Reply 53): When you have 12% muslim population, we'll talk again. What the h... are you guys thinking letting that many in within such a relatively short amount of time? I'm sorry but with those lax immigration policies, it's like asking for trouble. We better change the immigration policies across Europe asap!

It's about 12% in Paris, 9.6% in France.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 39): I think that European attitudes have bred a backlash among some alienated Euro Muslims.

It's possible. Then again, don't take your information on Muslims in Europe from a.net's resident Islamophobes. Much of what they write on here is exaggerated or simply untrue. The vast majority of Muslims in Europe live by the law and actually quite enjoy the liberties that our societies offer them.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 56): Quoting ozglobal (Reply 11): Those who would like to pretend there is not a culture war in flight and that everything will somehow 'be all right' if we just cave and be 'respectful' of Islamic wishes have a huge shock coming Your selective outrage and obsessive concerns need to be addressed somewhere other than on a forum about airlines and their people. Get help. Really.

Thanks for the concern about my mental health, rather than offering any arguments. I was on the street in Paris on the night 600 people were gunned down in bars, cafes and concert halls over long hours. 130 died, including a number of people connected to me. More attacks have been discovered and blocked at the last minute recently. Many more are coming. I walk past soldiers in the street every day and we are resigned to the fact that more will occur. These are all facts.

People are people and none are intrinsically better or worse than others. At the same time, the muslim community does not in any consistent manner speak out against these attacks, nor distance itself in any unambiguous way. However, there are constantly claims they should have more and more changes made to the way our society is organised to accommodate their preferences.

If saying this is 'obsessional' to you, I will remind you of some other preoccupations and decisions taken in your country after a certain even one September. No-one here is speaking the way Trump and his 10s of millions of supporters are about the muslim community. If there is fear mongering hysteria right now on the the issue, it's not confined to or even centred on this side of the Atlantic.

It's always interesting that people use the same point for and against that kind of clothing here in France:
- "Women should be free to wear whatever they want, including hijab"
- "Woman should be free to wear whatever they want, including if they are muslim, avoiding hijab if they want"
I think both are true, and we should not forbid any clothing style in our Western countries (even in public places).
Activists argue that women don't have a real choice (because of pressure from their family). But why should the Law govern their own cultural habits?
Obviously banning the covering of face still makes sense for security reasons.


Now imagine a nudist country, where wearing clothes would be forbidden.
THAT would make interested debates for flight crews!  

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 60): Muslims are much discriminated in France. It is well known that having an Arab family name in France will not take you long. Unfortunately discrimination is a terrible broth for unrest.

Fighting against discrimination is easier said than done. I think African Americans will agree with me.

I disagree that an Arab family name is such a problem though. It's a problem if you have other problems too, for example no skill or diploma. Without a skill or diploma, you're in trouble whatever your name is in France, but the Arab name will make it worse.

If you do have a diploma, which isn't particularly difficult in France where education is free and you even get money to study if your family is poor, then your name will not be a big problem. In my company there are plenty of people with Arab names at all levels, starting with my boss.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 60): Muslims are much discriminated in France. It is well known that having an Arab family name in France will not take you long. Unfortunately discrimination is a terrible broth for unrest.

How do explain then, in my role in IT, that approximately 50% of the young managers and up and coming technical experts have arab / muslim names, including a number of high executives? Maybe because the glass ceiling is largely a myth if you've got the qualifications.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7): Making such comments and espousing one society is somehow better than the other is exactly part of the problem. How about simply learn to accept and respect other cultures and customs?

Once barbaric Islam starts to respect all genders, races and religions, I'll recant my statement. But the truth--not opinion, TRUTH--is that it is THEY who've not been able to accept or respect any culture or custom other than their own.

It's been this way since the 7th Century, stop being naive.

And yes, there is such a concept as superior cultures. Beheading people and pretty much all of Sharia law would speak volumes to this. Stop denying it, stop accepting that PC pablum.

Just send an all male crew there,I'm pretty sure this is just another excuse to strike.

Quoting slider (Reply 67): And yes, there is such a concept as superior cultures. Beheading people and pretty much all of Sharia law would speak volumes to this

Beheading was never practiced by an Muslims until after the Crusades; the "Christian" Crusaders introduced the practice to Middle Eastern lands. I guess we must admit that we taught them.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 66): How do explain then, in my role in IT, that approximately 50% of the young managers and up and coming technical experts have arab / muslim names, including a number of high executives? Maybe because the glass ceiling is largely a myth if you've got the qualifications.

And I am guessing you have been bypassed for promotion; instead, one of these "enemies" has taken the job you thought should be yours.

That might explain your obsession.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 66): How do explain then, in my role in IT, that approximately 50% of the young managers and up and coming technical experts have arab / muslim names, including a number of high executives? Maybe because the glass ceiling is largely a myth if you've got the qualifications.

IT is an operational/support/back office role, an expenditure, the only thing the customer cares is that the job is done as cheap as possible. Also is a field where there is a lack of workers in general.

But look at "client-facing"/front office roles or professional services and how many Arabs you see in France even if they have the qualifications? However you see that people working in New York or even in London without any issue. You are in denial. Not by chance you see many French-Arabs working in London in the Finance industry (in a disproportion compared to the general French Finance population in London).

My personal view on this is yes you should respect other countries and their traditions. If they want women to cover up then they should. BUT could you imagine if we asked them to respect our traditions and remove their veils? Imagine the outrage it would cause. In many middle east countries it is against the law to wear a crucifix and such items can be confiscated at customs. Imagine if we did that here to them.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 69): Quoting ozglobal (Reply 66): How do explain then, in my role in IT, that approximately 50% of the young managers and up and coming technical experts have arab / muslim names, including a number of high executives? Maybe because the glass ceiling is largely a myth if you've got the qualifications. And I am guessing you have been bypassed for promotion; instead, one of these "enemies" has taken the job you thought should be yours. That might explain your obsession.

Not at all, doing very well, thanks very much.

No comment on my other 3 paragraphs of explanations...


But, I now see that personal attack is all you're interested in and will stop trying to engage with you sincerely. Perhaps it's not I who needs help.

Quoting european742 (Reply 71): My personal view on this is yes you should respect other countries and their traditions. If they want women to cover up then they should. BUT could you imagine if we asked them to respect our traditions and remove their veils? Imagine the outrage it would cause. In many middle east countries it is against the law to wear a crucifix and such items can be confiscated at customs. Imagine if we did that here to them.

Largely my point.         

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 70): Quoting ozglobal (Reply 66): How do explain then, in my role in IT, that approximately 50% of the young managers and up and coming technical experts have arab / muslim names, including a number of high executives? Maybe because the glass ceiling is largely a myth if you've got the qualifications. IT is an operational/support/back office role, an expenditure, the only thing the customer cares is that the job is done as cheap as possible. Also is a field where there is a lack of workers in general.

With the Digital business transformation most large financial organisations are undertaking, IT has returned to being close tot he core of the business in many instances.

I'll not argue further with you as I've been dismissed as, "in denial." Easy way out.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 11): Islamic cultures seek to impose their standards 'at home' AND abroad. In the West, they aggressively use uniquely Western religious liberty and anti-discrimination previsions, provisions they would never ever support in their own countries, to disingenuously argue to impose their standards in Europe. I have a 1000 examples. A small gesture to oppose this is met with cries by some of 'non-sense' and that we who question are 'part of the problem.' No we are just stating objective facts. Those who would like to pretend there is not a culture war in flight and that everything will somehow 'be all right' if we just cave and be 'respectful' of Islamic wishes have a huge shock coming. I would prefer to spare you that as much as possible, and have the debate now, without specious arguments that are effectively the surrender of freedom of speech (and in turn all our other freedoms for that matter).

100% agree with you.

Regarding the headscarf or veil, when in Rome, do as the Romans. When in Iran, do as the Iranians. But if the requirement is to wear a headscarf onboard the Air France aircraft on the leg to and from Tehran... no way. That's going way too far.

[Edited 2016-04-02 11:48:50]

[Edited 2016-04-02 11:50:06]

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 60): The US is a country of migration and inclusion and consequently everybody integrates better, no matter the religion.

I would argue that for various economic and geographical reasons the US receives different types of Muslim migrants than Europe does. I mean, think of Finland. Our economy sucks, we are very far north from the countries where the refugees are coming from, yet we were among the European countries that received the most refugees when compared to the size of the native population.

So, why did those 32 000 or so refugees come last year here, rather than somewhere more south with better economic opportunities too. Welfare. We happen to be among the most generous when it comes to that.

The US on the other hand isn't known to have that good of a welfare system, plus you can't cross and enter the country illegally very easily compared to crossing the Mediterranean and entering some EU country. As a result an average Muslim migrant arriving to the US is likely to be better educated and more motivated to adapt and work.

European attitudes are not the primary issue here, it's just that the very fundamentals for integration are very different and can't be changed in practice.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 69): Quoting slider (Reply 67): And yes, there is such a concept as superior cultures. Beheading people and pretty much all of Sharia law would speak volumes to this Beheading was never practiced by an Muslims until after the Crusades; the "Christian" Crusaders introduced the practice to Middle Eastern lands. I guess we must admit that we taught them.

Rubbish. It was part of 7th century practice.

Instructions regarding decapitation can be found in both the Quran, the Hadith as well as the Siras. :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beheading_in_Islam

Are you just making stuff up now?

Quoting european742 (Reply 71): My personal view on this is yes you should respect other countries and their traditions. If they want women to cover up then they should. BUT could you imagine if we asked them to respect our traditions and remove their veils? Imagine the outrage it would cause. In many middle east countries it is against the law to wear a crucifix and such items can be confiscated at customs. Imagine if we did that here to them.

Why are you using them as a standard for your ethics and values? If you are better than them, you differentiate yourself from them rather than follow suit.

You have French engineering companies at the feet of the Iranians after the lifted embargos, you have the French MoD selling Rafales and Mistrals to dubious Arab states and you have the French government welcoming Gulf state investment and thus ensuring governments with less than welcoming ideals increase their influence in French circles YET people will cry about respecting the customs of a country, a custom which is essentially just a scarf covering the head?

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 75): But if the requirement is to wear a headscarf onboard the Air France aircraft on the leg to and from Tehran... no way. That's going way too far.

But that's not the case! So why making the point at all??

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 70): You are in denial. Not by chance you see many French-Arabs working in London in the Finance industry (in a disproportion compared to the general French Finance population in London).

Yet London was hit by Islamic terrorism in 2005.

[Edited 2016-04-02 12:05:53]

Quoting ZeeZoo (Reply 79): You have French engineering companies at the feet of the Iranians after the lifted embargos, you have the French MoD selling Rafales and Mistrals to dubious Arab states and you have the French government welcoming Gulf state investment and thus ensuring governments with less than welcoming ideals increase their influence in French circles YET people will cry about respecting the customs of a country, a custom which is essentially just a scarf covering the head?

I didn't know we should commerce according to moral rules, nobody has mentioned it to the international bodies ruling commerce apparently.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 77): Rubbish. It was part of 7th century practice. Instructions regarding decapitation can be found in both the Quran, the Hadith as well as the Siras. : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beheading_in_Islam

Wikipedia is not a source; it is just as full of propaganda as this forum. You might have even posted "facts" there yourself; there is no way to tell who or where their claims come from.

Some of the members here talk about the events in Paris and Brussels as it were the Iranians, while we all know that's not true. blame the Arabs instead!   And I still wonder what these kind of discussions have to do with Air France staff wearing headscarves in Iran?

When in Iran do as the Iranians, as simple as that. If you can't live with that, nobody is forcing you to visit Iran!   

And for those members here talking about human rights and the "Oh so barbaric Islam", go ahead and cut all ties with those countries.

But of course, you won't, because those "Oh so barbaric nations" buy billions of dollars in arms from you guys and supply you with oil and gas. Not to forget the multi-trillion businesses that western countries have in the Middle East, The Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and etc.

I am really sorry for the attacks recently in Europe, but then again it's very irrelevant to these thread...

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 53): The main one is critical mass: try 0.9% vs 12% muslim population. We already have constant demands to change mainstream culture and practices just for the 12%, but those changes impact everybody. You don't have that in NYC.

I don't want to step into this debate really, but I'd like to clear up a misperception as it relates to New York City. There is one study that estimates the Muslim population of NYC to be over 6% (over half a million). http://www.nycreligion.info/muslims-nyc-area/ The 0.9% figure is for the USA as a whole (if that's accurate).

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 70):

In fact I have met French based West Africans who live in NYC because they have more opportunities than in Paris. Once their resume has that sheen, then they can return to Paris. Some do London for the same reason, I am told.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 76):

Europe gets the refugees, and those who need welfare. The USA, Canada, Australia, and to a degree the UK, get the more aspirational immigrants.

WOW!!!! Great discussion, but lets stay with the facts. Female crew to wear a headscarf from de-planing the aircraft to the Hotel.
I certainly don't think that's asking much to observe the local laws.

Quoting fokkerf28 (Reply 87): WOW!!!! Great discussion, but lets stay with the facts. Female crew to wear a headscarf from de-planing the aircraft to the Hotel. I certainly don't think that's asking much to observe the local laws.

I agree that makes sense and is consistent with what travelers have always done when visiting foreign countries (e.g., avoid revealing clothing when you visit St. Peter's). But if someone is a "conscientious objector" then they should not be forced to fly to Tehran; it shouldn't be that hard to staff the few flights operated by AF..

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 88): But if someone is a "conscientious objector" then they should not be forced to fly to Tehran; it shouldn't be that hard to staff the few flights operated by AF..

AF is a global airline, and for crews to object to one destination or the other further complicates things. And where does this end? Do gays avoid nations that are not as friendly, do others avoid other nations for one reason or another.

AF does allow some voluntary assignments, but as general these are to places like potential war zones, or areas of strife where safety can be more risky.
Even during Ebola scare, AF did not exempt crews from Africa trips. Yes unions made a stink about it and made threats, but company instead implemented hygiene measures and flight activity went on except flights to Freetown which was cancelled per request of French state.

Crews must be ready and able to serve all destinations to be employed. Very simple.
Iran is hardly a life and safety danger zone to apply voluntary crew requirement for.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 83): Quoting ozglobal (Reply 77): Rubbish. It was part of 7th century practice. Instructions regarding decapitation can be found in both the Quran, the Hadith as well as the Siras. : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beheading_in_Islam Wikipedia is not a source; it is just as full of propaganda as this forum. You might have even posted "facts" there yourself; there is no way to tell who or where their claims come f

^ Quran, Surah 47:3
^ Quran, Surah 8:12 "When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."

I don't know about the KLM crew in the photo, but AF specifically requests female flight crew to wear headscarf, long trousers and long jacket everywhere outside their hotel room and to refrain from smoking in public while in Teheran.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 90): ^ Quran, Surah 47:3 ^ Quran, Surah 8:12 "When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."

Some non-Muslims either through ignorance or Islam-bashing continue taking the verses of the Quran out of context and its history to justify their false propaganda. In order to gain a proper understanding of many verses in the Quran, it is important to understand and know the historic context of the revelations. So many revelations in the Quran came down to provide guidance to Prophet Muhammad and the Muslims based on what they were confronting at that time. The verse 8:12 is one such verse which is misinterpreted. The verse and its brief explanation follows:

008.012:
give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers:
smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

This verse and the verses before and after were revealed about the Battle of Badr, which occurred in Arabia in the early seventh century. A battle in which the pagans of Makkah traveled more than 200 miles to Madinah with an army of about 1000 to destroy Muslims. Prophet Muhammad and Muslims had suffered severe persecutions and torture for 13 years in the city of Makkah. And now that they had fled Makkah and found a sanctuary in the city of Madinah, they were once again threatened. Muslim Army was only about 300 strong. God gave the order to Muslims to fight to defend their lives and faith. The enemy came to them with the intent to kill Muslims. It was a war to defend themselves and their Faith. It was a war imposed upon Muslims.

And when you fight, you strive to kill the enemy during the fight.
However, even during the war, Islam has the highest moral law of war. You don't kill children, women or any one who is not fighting with you.

Ugh... really wanted to avoid jumping in on this, but...

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 90): Quran, Surah 8:12 "When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."

If you're going to quote the Quran you really, really need to provide the whole verse and context of when this verse was transcribed. The context of this verse is of war-time, specifically the Battle of Badr, when the Muslims of Madinah were under threat of siege.

I am not a huge fan of some of the writings in the Quran, but unless you have actually taken the time to research a hair bit more, your postings are just as meaningless as this whole drama over a simple headscarf.

Quoting fokkerf28 (Reply 87): WOW!!!! Great discussion, but lets stay with the facts. Female crew to wear a headscarf from de-planing the aircraft to the Hotel. I certainly don't think that's asking much to observe the local laws.

Are you a woman ?

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 89): Iran is hardly a life and safety danger zone to apply voluntary crew requirement for.

Except if women don't wear a headscarf. Or as you mentioned, if you're gay, then it's ground for public hanging.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 94): Except if women don't wear a headscarf. Or as you mentioned, if you're gay, then it's ground for public hanging.

I am gay and living in Iran, get your facts straight.

If you're gonna make problems of such issues, Air France should suspend all their flights to the Middle East and Northern Africa, because last time I checked, gay rights were not very respected in those countries either!

Be real.

[Edited 2016-04-02 14:12:18]

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 10): Probably many AF male FAs will like Persian guys anyway.

I'm sure the few other male FAs will remain unmoved by Persian women.

Honestly, can your remark be any more cliché?

As crew I feel a lot of hypocrisy here. Restrictions applied to female crew that work flights to KSA are far more extreme than the requirement to wear a headscarf. Their arms and legs have to be fully covered at all times. They aren't able to take advantage of the hotel swimming pool or the gym. Female Pursers are simply ignored when dealing with customs or immigration matters. In fact even myself was chastised by the gym staff in RUH when I wore my gym attire (shorts and a t-shirt) direct from my hotel room to the hotel gym instead of long pants. We have had crew detained in RUH before for making the ill fated mistake of being in a shopping centre with a colleague of the opposite sex and laughing and joking.

Yet KSA is just a wonderful friend of the west and we have been cow towing to them and their brutal regime for decades.

Yes, as crew for international global airlines we need to be able to fly the network of these airlines. We need to adopt the local laws. Sometimes it's more straight forward than others. For example being gay. For 99% of countries it's not an issue. Even where there are laws against sodomy or 'gay sex' it is participating in the actual act that is illegal, not 'being' gay. I have to admit though I was concerned about operating flights to Uganda one of the few countries where simply 'being gay' was deemed a criminal offence. And what's more they were trying to implement laws making it illegal to not 'report' gays. How would that have worked with an airline crew where we have some gay couples legally (in the UK) married and flying on joint rosters?

Personally, i'm looking forward to visiting Iran and would happily 'volunteer' to operate such flights. However, I do agree that female crew should have the option to 'opt out' of operating flights to countries where their freedom of movement in comparison to men is restricted.

**These are my personal opinions only**

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 95): If you're gonna make problems of such issues, Air France should suspend all their flights to the Middle East and Northern Africa, because last time I checked, gay rights were not very respected in those countries either!

Actually North Africa is much better. Middle East, it varies, last time I checked women weren't forced to wear a headscarf in the UAE, Qatar, Oman...

Quoting Aesma (Reply 98): Actually North Africa is much better. Middle East, it varies, last time I checked women weren't forced to wear a headscarf in the UAE, Qatar, Oman...

Maybe expats not, but it would seem that at least in Qatar local Muslim women are supposed to wear a headscarf or even niqab:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=79539

Also let's remember which country bans women from driving a car, and that's not Iran.

Personally I think the real issue is that certain countries in Middle East breed terrorism either through direct sponsorship, or by spreading forms of Islam that are very intolerant ant violent. Saudi-Arabia and Qatar in particular are such nations, while Iran on the other hand hasn't really sponsored any organizations that would pose a threat to western world in a long time.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 98): Actually North Africa is much better. Middle East, it varies, last time I checked women weren't forced to wear a headscarf in the UAE, Qatar, Oman...

But they do in the " Oh so loved western ally" Saudi Arabia, can you see the hypocrisy?

Did you also know that Iranian women are the highest educated and progressive in the region?

[Edited 2016-04-02 15:18:23]

Quoting jnev3289 (Reply 23): Why bother debating with a brick wall?

Looks like you're the brick wall here, OzGlobal has been perfectly reasonable and articulate in his points. You on the other hand are doing the typical lefty act of throwing names about and being irrational. No one says you have to agree with him, but come up with some reasoned arguments in response.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 24): Are we supposed to accept society of cannibals based on respect for other cultures?

  

Point well made.

[Edited 2016-04-02 15:22:07]

Can those of you who live in the dark, chauvinistic ages please stop referring to flight attendants at hostesses. Seriously?

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 102): Can those of you who live in the dark, chauvinistic ages please stop referring to flight attendants at hostesses. Seriously?

Can you please explain me the difference between those two words, and what makes "hostess" less good than the other? It deeply offends me that you didn't take into consideration the fact that some of us here aren't native English speakers, as if other languages are worse. That's borderline linguistic discrimination.

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 100): Quoting Aesma (Reply 98): Actually North Africa is much better. Middle East, it varies, last time I checked women weren't forced to wear a headscarf in the UAE, Qatar, Oman... But they do in the " Oh so loved western ally" Saudi Arabia, can you see the hypocrisy? Did you also know that Iranian women are the highest educated and progressive in the region?

Yes, I think most informed westerners are well aware on both counts. Iran is not the villain this discussion.

Quoting Luftymatt (Reply 101):

LOL grab a crumpet and calm down ol' chap.
To address your point, nothing about his islamophobic, ethnocentric thoughts have been either "perfectly reasonable or articulate", but keep living with your head in the sand. Good day.

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 102): Can those of you who live in the dark, chauvinistic ages please stop referring to flight attendants at hostesses. Seriously?

Sorry, but he PC police have misfired here. It is only female FA's that are in question as only they have to change their attire. If we are ONLY speaking of female FA's, how is hostess a pejorative term??