PanHAM
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:52 am

Quoting okapi (Reply 46):
Well, on many short european routes (AMS, BRU, LON, GVA, LUX, FRA) the high-speed train network makes much more

Depends when I attend a trade Show at Villepinte Paris Nord flying is much quicker (from FRA)

But the main reason why secoind carriers never were successful in Europe is that, through 6th freedom rights all European Airlines could serve routes from any European Country via their hubs. Long before the EU single market and the ESAA was established. That wide choice of Services left Little room for second home carriers except the usual niches.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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fallap
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:02 am

AOM had a fleet of 34 with 24 destinations, perhaps not enough to be classified as a major carrier - but still somewhat sizeable.

Also, their FA's were quite the frisky type, and no - I'm not linking the videos here!  
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Flyingsottsman
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:42 am

Could UTA have survived on its own or did they not have a say and had to be brought out by Air France?
 
Max Q
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:33 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 36):
France is all about Air France and the "Grandness" of France

Well France is a pretty Grand place.



I think it's one of the greatest. most beautiful countries in the world.



Have you even been there ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Max Q
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:38 am

This is a subject that could use some local expertise, Pihero are you out there ?!
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
bleudefrance
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:16 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 53):
Well France is a pretty Grand place.



I think it's one of the greatest. most beautiful countries in the world.



Have you even been there ?

Indeed but nowadays has been ruined by some archaic marxist unions.

France (and also Europe as a whole) needs a radical economic liberalization to face the growing competition from Asia and i'm sure the next government will make it, almost all the French people that i know are very aware of this issue.
 
vv701
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:34 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 39):
The UK and France favoured one airline: BA (BOAC) and AF. It is risible that people think Virgin is a real competitor to BA... they only serve a handful of destinations with no European/Regional feed.
I have read an analyzed the Merger and Monopolies Commission on the merger of BA and BCal... it is obvious the government was doing everything to favour a stronger BA to face the other European carries on the eve of European wide deregulation.


I cannot agree with this analysis. When British United Airways merged with British Aviation Services (Silver City Airways and Britavia) in 1962 it became the world's largest airline outside of the USA that was not subsidised by its government. It became instantly larger when it bought Jersey Airlines just four months later.

Major further growth was experienced in November 1964 when BUA took over all the routes of STATE OWNED BOAC to Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Uruguay. This was the first practical move in what I see as the UK governments long standing policy of supporting a duopoly of British airlines.

I see the next step along this route as being in January 1966. That was when BUA commenced domestic services to destinations served by state owned BEA from LON to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Belfast. Although BUA was not granted access to LHR it is clear these flights were in direct competition with the BEA flights to the same destinations from LHR. This is because at the time of their launch they did not result in a market that had never existed before.

By the time BUA was sold to Caledonian Airways BUA had extensive networks serving the UK, Europe, Africa and South America. Each of the routes it served required the authorisation of the UK government. Indeed it could only operate under international bilateral service agreements negotiated by the British government. I cannot believe that the British government would have allowed BUA to develop in this way if it really 'was doing everything to favour a stronger BA' or, indeed, a stronger BEA and BOAC.

Indeed in the late 1960s a parliamentary committee, the Edwards Committee, had made a prime recommendation that what it called a 'Second Force' airline should be allowed to compete with the two state owned airlines on selected routes. While the implementation of this recommendation cannot be described as allowing full, direct competition neither can I see it as 'doing everything to favour a stronger BA'.

Around 1970 BUA began to experience financial troubles. It entered negotiations with first BEA and then BOAC with a view to a merger before the final deal with Caledonian Airways was achieved. I cannot believe the government would have allowed the talks with BEA or BOAC to fail if they were doing everything possible to favour the state owned airlines particularly allowing a larger competitor to enter the market through the merger of BUA and Caledonian.

The merger between BUA and Caledonian Airways resulted in the formation of British Caledonian Airways in November 1970. This was almost contemporary with the Act of Parliament passed in 1971 that resulted in the merger of BEA and BOAC to form British Airways. BA operationally came into being on 1 October 1973 under the auspices of the already active British Airways Board.

In 1976 the British government's policy changed from one supporting competition with a duopoly of airlines to that of a duopoly with each airline having its own sphere of influence.

This change in policy required, for example, BCal to withdraw from its routes to East Africa where it was flying in competition with BA. It also had to cease its LON-JFK and LON-LAX amongst several other services.

BCal's 'sphere of influence' included Africa (excluding East Africa) and all of South America. So BA had to hand over its services to Lusaka as well as all their routes to Columbia, Peru and Venezuela. Again I cannot see that the government requiring BA to hand over these routes to BCal can be in anyway compatible with a policy of doing everything possible to favour a stronger BA.

Bermuda II resulted in BCAL being designated as the only British airline allowed to operate LGW-ATL and LGW-IAH, two USA destinations that the agreement did not permit to be served from LHR. Again giving BCal exclusive rights to operate to these two destinations is. I believe, flying in the face of the assumed policy of doing everything in favour of a stronger BA.

Bermuda II came into force in 1979 and named the airlines that were allowed to operate between LHR and named USA cities (not airports). This effectively excluded VS from operating LHR-USA after the formation of the airline in June 1984. Nevertheless when the USA needed to renegotiate Bermuda II with the demise of the two nominated US airlines, PA and TW, the British government, despite its alleged policy of doing everything to favour a stronger BA only agreed to the request by the USA to allow AA and UA to operate LHR-USA if the UK were allowed to add a second British airline, VS, to the permitted list. Adding a second British airline to thos allowed to operate to the US from LHR is clearly not doing everything in favour of a strong BA.

The perception that VS is not a competitor to BA is clearly mistaken, In the main that is exactly what it is. Has it ever launched a new service from LHR to any destination not already served by BA? I do not think so. Has it tried short-haul routes in competition with BA like those to ABZ, EDI and MAN? Yes. Does it fly between LHR and long-haul destinations already served by multiple BA flights. Yes. Has its founder. Richard Branson attacked BA verbally at virtually every possible occasion? Probably. Indeed, although it may be a little exaggerated it could be said that the base VS business plan, at least until Kreeger was appointed CEO, was to compete with BAfrom LHR .
 
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mercure1
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:58 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 52):
Could UTA have survived on its own or did they not have a say and had to be brought out by Air France?

Its unlikely. At take over - both UTA and Air Inter reported they were loss making.

Privately held owners of UTA (Chargeurs) were likely quite happy for the Fr3.8 billion (USD$662 mil) they received from Air France which also assumed all the debts, staff and infrastructure of UTA.

While UTA was publicly pushing its agenda of growth and had orders for 24 more widebodies at merger, this was likely a huge financial liability especially since it was clear French state was not interested in creating situation where French airlines would compete against each other, and UTA was denied to intra-European routes and also denied some services such as Paris-NYC which would compete against AF.
Simply put, UTA was increasingly handicapped(with mounting debt) already by 1990 in an increasingly globalized complex market place, so in many ways joining forces with AF was positive for all parties involved.

Many including myself look fondly back on UTA for the fact that it connected much of the Francophone world, but I am not sure it could defy economic reality much longer.
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IPFreely
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:10 pm

Quoting bleudefrance (Reply 55):
ndeed but nowadays has been ruined by some archaic marxist unions.

France (and also Europe as a whole) needs a radical economic liberalization to face the growing competition from Asia and i'm sure the next government will make it, almost all the French people that i know are very aware of this issue.

This is spot on. Those wondering why there are no French airlines other than Air France (and little French economic growth or entrepreneurship in general) need only look at the Air France unions. Imagine trying to start a business when you are hiring from a labor pool full of worthless employees like these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHIcMzEYP58

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DB28ugYYWo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWu60917X9k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq9moXJBPUE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY6NlGGe6GI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYDNmyffJQE
 
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mercure1
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:30 pm

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 58):
This is spot on. Those wondering why there are no French airlines other than Air France (and little French economic growth or entrepreneurship in general) need only look at the Air France unions. Imagine trying to start a business when you are hiring from a labor pool full of worthless employees like these:

Your image of France is largely generalizations and incorrect ones.

Business climate in France, and ability to do conduct business is one of the top of the world.

The World Bank puts out annual ranking of "Ease of doing business" which measures business friendliness and regulations.
France ranks 27 out of 189 nations in 2015.
Business ease is better in France than many fellow European nations - Switzerland, Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Greece, Czech, Hungary, etc all rank worse than France.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.BUS.EASE.XQ

Also France has a huge entrepreneur sector, especially these days in technology -- matter of fact France third-biggest representative in that sector after the United States and China with number of startups valued at more than USD $1 billion.
Also companies like Cisco, Microsoft, Facebook and Intel have all announced big investments in France last year because obviously its a good place for them to base their European operations from.
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LAXintl
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:17 pm

For all the images we might have about working in France, they are still one of the most productive labor forces in the world.
Even more productive than their German or UK neighbors!

Latest OECD rankings
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PDB_LV

Plenty of articles over the years on this topic that back up what to many seems quite a contrarian, but yet a true fact.

[Edited 2016-04-10 13:18:11]
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bleudefrance
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:55 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 60):

That's true, France is the 5th biggest exporter in the World and has a very strong banking system but with a liberalized labour market and without those noisy unions they could perform even better.

People in France and in Europe in general have to wake up and see that we don't live in the XX century anymore and nowadays the Asians make it better, faster and, more important, cheaper.

[Edited 2016-04-10 14:08:42]
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:14 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 56):
When British United Airways merged with British Aviation Services (Silver City Airways and Britavia) in 1962 it became the world's largest airline outside of the USA that was not subsidised by its government.

Do you have a source for the "world's largest outside the USA" claim (other than Wikipedia)? Would like to compare with some other privately-owned carriers at that time.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:24 am

Quoting bleudefrance (Reply 61):
People in France and in Europe in general have to wake up and see that we don't live in the XX century anymore and nowadays the Asians make it better, faster and, more important, cheaper.

Europe and America are well aware of Asia, but as societies we certainly don't need to destroy the social benefits and high standards that have been established over the decades just become ignorant of basic social rights along with things like ignoring the environment in order to 'compete' with Asia. That would be not only foolish but a global disaster.
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bleudefrance
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:50 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 63):
Europe and America are well aware of Asia, but as societies we certainly don't need to destroy the social benefits and high standards that have been established over the decades just become ignorant of basic social rights along with things like ignoring the environment in order to 'compete' with Asia. That would be not only foolish but a global disaster.

In order to support that high standard of living you have to adapt to the World of today, the big companies should be able to take decisions without being constantly harassed by marxist unions.

Fortunatly in France the majority of the people don't support the unions (2/3 of French people are against the unions), i'm very curious to the see the next government in the next year, France as the heart of Europe along with Germany should just to adapt their labour market to the World we are living today, the next government will have to make it.
 
TYCOON
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RE: Why No Big French Airlines Other Than AF?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:30 pm

VV701 (Reply 56)
Thanks for your post. Actually I believe we are arguing the same point. I had to obviously summarize my thesis in a post (very difficult to do), but your description of the UK airline industry in its formative years is in the end not all that different from the French industry, and the roles both governments had shaping the industry.
Replace BUA/Caledonian/Silver = British Caledonian with UAT/TAI = UTA. The "secondary" local airline that did not initially directly compete against the government favoured/owned carrier BOAC/BEA or AF.
Later in the 1980s some competition was allowed between UTA and AF as between BA and BCal in the 70s, and AF competed with Air Inter on select domestic routes, but for the most part the British and French aviation world was split in two hemispheres (I leave the whole charter industry outside the equation.)
This is in sharp contrast to the way the US government shaped its airline industry. At the end of the day, markets are political creations.
I do disagree with you regarding the importance of VS vs BA today. No different the AF and Corsair/Air Caraibes/XL Airways. They compete on a few routes with AF/BA but no where near the density and medium-/short-haul feed to be consider a serious rival.

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