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Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:48 am
by yoni
Openskies will get a 767 by August to increase capacity on NYC-ORY. It will be in a triple-class cabin (J24, W24, Y78). 78 seats in economy is very low for this aircraft, unless the pitch is huge (maybe a typo...).
It seems that it is a BA response to the new AF EWR-ORY route with a 772ER (309 seats).

Here is the link (in French) : http://www.journal-aviation.com/actu...3161-openskies-passe-au-boeing-767

[Edited 2016-04-08 22:55:06]

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:34 am
by sandyb123
If it's one of the ex BA birds then it's 141 in Y unless there are some fairly radical changes in the back! J & W adds up to the BA current configuration on the type and the mid-haul (multi-class) 763's are exiting the BA fleet.

Sandyb123

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:40 am
by IBA346
This is good news. I wonder if this is one of Alex Cruz's first decisions.

There is a bit more info in the air journal article

http://www.air-journal.fr/2016-04-08...ng-767-pour-openskies-5161074.html

The article states that this aircraft is for increased frequencies. They are also redoing the cabins on the entire fleet. Very needed according to recent trip reports.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:37 am
by Luftymatt
Interesting, it looked for a long while like Open Skies was stagnant with regards to growth. It looks like there is still demand for their services, and even the need for expansion. Great news  

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:45 am
by goldorak
Quoting yoni (Thread starter):
It seems that it is a BA response to the new AF EWR-ORY route with a 772ER (309 seats).

AF is launching ORY-JFK, not EWR.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:54 am
by bmibaby737
Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 1):
If it's one of the ex BA birds then it's 141 in Y unless there are some fairly radical changes in the back! J & W adds up to the BA current configuration on the type and the mid-haul (multi-class) 763's are exiting the BA fleet.

That would make the candidate, either:

G-BNWI
G-BNWM
G-BNWW
G-BNWY

[Edited 2016-04-09 00:59:20]

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:02 am
by yoni
Quoting goldorak (Reply 4):

You're right. Thanks for this.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:35 am
by LAX772LR
Quoting yoni (Thread starter):
with a 772ER (309 seats)

Interesting.

If anything, I figured DL would launch it with a 752 or 763ER before AF went that heavily on the capacity.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:47 am
by pilot21
Quoting bmibaby737 (Reply 5):

G-BNWI will be wearing a French reg from sometime around Aug 19th onwards according to a BA insider on another site.

Pilot21

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:24 am
by AirbusA6
I'd forgotten Openskies still existed! I'd assumed that BA/IAG would quietly close it down

https://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/2015/07/06/ba-doubles-down-on-openskies-with-new-paris-lounge/

A 25 year old 767 is hardly a long term solution though, it'll be interesting what they do next

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:51 pm
by goldorak
Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 7):
If anything, I figured DL would launch it with a 752 or 763ER before AF went that heavily on the capacity.

Overall, no increase in capacity on the Skyteam offer on PAR-JFK, as one AF frequency from CDG was in fact transferred to ORY. So no big risks.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:15 pm
by mwhcvt
Interesting any chance that with this addition they might look at some destinations further afield than New York..,part of me thinks it needs a rebrand and if it were me I'd look at rebranding it into VY Longhaul maybe in the same kind of vain as AirAsiaX

As VY has far greater brand recognition within Europe than open skies ever will

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:29 pm
by GSTBA
G-BNWW is due to leave the fleet in July, This could possibly be the aircraft heading to openskies.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:36 pm
by winterlight
What is the official livery of Open Skies? Silver belly and titles? Silver belly, purple titles? Blue belly and titles? Confusing.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:43 pm
by Johnwaynebobbet
Quoting IBA346 (Reply 2):
This is good news. I wonder if this is one of Alex Cruz's first decisions.

No its been a done deal for months.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:04 pm
by uberflieger
Quoting winterlight (Reply 13):
Silver belly and titles? Silver belly, purple titles? Blue belly and titles? Confusing

Confusing? Try Openskies with a French accent. 

This is exciting news! The last couple of years it looked more like BA was winding down the whole concept.   

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:37 pm
by Bongodog1964
BNWW would make a lot more sense than BNWI, 4 years younger and a lot less hours on the clock.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:48 pm
by winterlight
And BNWI isn't due to be WFU until September.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:25 pm
by LAX772LR
Quoting goldorak (Reply 10):
Overall, no increase in capacity on the Skyteam offer on PAR-JFK, as one AF frequency from CDG was in fact transferred to ORY. So no big risks.

Ah, okay. Makes sense.

Are they just going to turn the aircraft around at JFK, or are they basing 77Es at ORY now too?

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:52 pm
by yoni
Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 18):
Are they just going to turn the aircraft around at JFK, or are they basing 77Es at ORY now too?
AF 77Es will be based in ORY. AF have just started using 77Es for ORY-CAY as well (used to be A343s).

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 15):
This is exciting news! The last couple of years it looked more like BA was winding down the whole concept.   

There is conflicting information on this. BA wants to consolidate its LHR-NYC with one flight every hour while reducing the role of OpenSkies in ORY or transferring its operations to another airport. It's a bit confusing.

[Edited 2016-04-09 14:57:19]

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:05 pm
by by738
I thought part of the reason BA were withdrawing 767's from TA was that these models were no longer going to be navigation compliant?

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:16 pm
by bleudefrance
What's the purpose of this airline?

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:29 pm
by BA174
Quoting winterlight (Reply 13):

What is the official livery of Open Skies? Silver belly and titles? Silver belly, purple titles? Blue belly and titles? Confusing

I remeber F-GPEK is the original base design and the two ex A0 757s were given the purple addition when merged as a nod to A0 and I believe purple was also incorporated into the interior soft furnishings, later around the time B0 was conceived (same team of founders that created A0) the purple was dropped and removed from the interiors and F-HAVI was repainted into near full BA livery they just never seemed to get round to down doing EK/VN. Feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

I hope the 767s just go over in full BA livery and stay on the British register as G-BPEK did when OpenSkies first started operating under BA European ltd.

[Edited 2016-04-09 15:30:45]

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:35 am
by N1120A
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 9):
A 25 year old 767 is hardly a long term solution though, it'll be interesting what they do next

As opposed to a 20 year old 777?

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:48 am
by debonair
Quoting yoni (Thread starter):
Openskies will get a 767 by August to increase capacity

What will happen to the B757's? More destinations to come?

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 9):
A 25 year old 767 is hardly a long term solution though,

It's a cheap alternative, if paid off! Just add some winglets and a B777 interior and the a/c can soldier on for many more years!

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:51 am
by goldorak
Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 18):
Are they just going to turn the aircraft around at JFK, or are they basing 77Es at ORY now too?
Quoting yoni (Reply 19):
AF 77Es will be based in ORY. AF have just started using 77Es for ORY-CAY as well (used to be A343s)

The ORY-JFK flight will be operated by a B772. It will be still based in CDG as per my understanding and will be turned around in JFK (W pattern).

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:04 am
by bastew
Quoting bleudefrance (Reply 21):
What's the purpose of this airline?

To make money I guess. Believe me.....knowing BA as I do if it wasn't contributing financially it would be wound up in days.

I guess BA had grand aspirations for it in the beginning. It was launched just after there was an 'EU wide' open skies agreement between the EU to the US allowing say SAS to fly LHR-ORD or Iberia to fly Oslo - Chicago if it wanted. The idea never really took off though - I think AF launched LHR - LAX for a brief time. BA set up 'Open skies' to fly to JFK from ORY using 757's from within the BA mainline fleet. The airline has had so many changes to it's business model - in the beginning it was a three class airline then it went 'all premium' (Club and Premium eco) then it went back to a three class operation. It switched it's JFK operation to EWR. There was talk of launching flights from other european airports to NYC (did AMS ever happen) as well as from Paris to other US cities.

I guess the costs are pretty low for the airline. Staff are all on 'non legacy' contracts, the aircraft are owned outright and although they aren't particularly efficient models with fuel prices at current levels it would help.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:14 am
by aidoair
Quoting debonair (Reply 24):

It's a cheap alternative, if paid off! Just add some winglets and a B777 interior and the a/c can soldier on for many more years!


The Rolls Royce engined 767 can't have winglets fitted, This is due to the extra weight on the wing already. The interiors have already had a refresh, I just suspect a change / refresh of the Economy / Premium economy seat may happen and removal of the Rockwell Collins IFE system.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:43 pm
by jfklganyc
Quoting goldorak (Reply 4):

AF is launching ORY-JFK, not EWR.

Correct.


What is the purpose of transferring a CDG to this route? This won't work out well for them.


The Open Skies paint job looks like the BA paint job. It was wedged between the BA 318 and 747 at JFK the other day and for half a second I thought BA started 757 service from northern Britain again. Remember those days? Then I saw the Billboard script "Open Skies"

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:20 pm
by vv701
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 16):
BNWW would make a lot more sense than BNWI, 4 years younger and a lot less hours on the clock.

All of the original BA 763 fleet have spent varying lengths of time configured for both short-haul (European and domestic) and long-haul (intercontinental) flights. Of course when configured for short-haul operations they rack up the cycles but fly relatively limited hours. On the other hand when operating on long-haul flights they complete no more than a single daily cycle instead of the three or four daily cycles flown by their short-haul configured sister ships every operational day. But the long-haul configured aircraft rack up a lot more flying hours.

What would be interesting to know are the cycles as well as the flying hours of each frame in BA's still operational 763 fleet.

As an aside all or nearly all of the BA 763s retired to the desert and parked up at VCV are still on the CAA British register. In contrast the often more recently retired BA 734s parked at VCV (but not the BA 744s also there) are still formally registered by BA according to the CAA G-INFO site. Although these parked 763s could be returned to service this seems most unlikely. They all had parts removed for recycling, particularly their cabin seats, at CWL on their way to VCV.


Quoting bastew (Reply 26):
I guess BA had grand aspirations for it in the beginning.


It was appalling if unforceable timing. Open Skies, the EU / USA agreement, came into force at the end of March 2008. It heralded the launch of Openskies the airline. The start of the worldwide Credit Crunch followed less than five months later. The facts that there is not yet a universal recovery from the Credit Crunch with interest rates still at or near historic lows and that Openskies the airline survived shows that the concept was good. I personally have no doubt that it would be much bigger today if the early naughties worldwide economic boom had continued beyond the airline's birth.

However to survive Openskies that started as a J-Class-only operator has changed its business plan more than once to reflect the changed environment. It has also retreated from briefly implemented expansion plans such as its flights from AMS.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:37 pm
by BA174
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 28):
The Open Skies paint job looks like the BA paint job. It was wedged between the BA 318 and 747 at JFK the other day and for half a second I thought BA started 757 service from northern Britain again. Remember those days? Then I saw the Billboard script "Open Skies"

The three frames all have different liveries. I'm pleased the purple version was short lived and although it's still on F-HAVN it doesn't seem to appear in any OpenSkies marketing/interiors anymore. F-GPEK wears the first version and F-HAVI latest "BA Blue" version. I hope the 767s just continue to wear the full standard BA livery.

[Edited 2016-04-10 09:37:54]

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:09 pm
by ZuluTime
Is there any reason why they wouldn't simply re-fleet the entire OpenSkies operations with the refurbished 767s coming out of BA? Seems that it would be a far more logical thing to do rather than running a split fleet with only four aircraft, even despite the cross-crew opportunities with the 757 and 767.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:52 pm
by goldorak
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 28):
What is the purpose of transferring a CDG to this route? This won't work out well for them.

Why wouldn't this work for AF ? If you leave in the south suburbs of Paris, going to CDG is a pain due to the traffic. So ORY is obviously a preferred choice for those people. If your destination is not served from ORY, fine you go to CDG, no choice. But if your destination is served from ORY, e.g. NYC, you obviously prefer to fly from there. And so instead of leaving all this market to EC, the JV AF/KL/DL has chosen to transfer one frequency from CDG to ORY. Very smart move IMO as AF has a lot of frequent flyers in this catchment area who will much prefer to fly AF rather than EC. And it gives also some additional connections opportunities to/from France (there are several domestic stations served by AF/A5 from ORY and not from CDG). And it gives overall more options to AF/DL fliers and this is always good. And by transferring a frequency from CDG to ORY instead of adding a frequency, frankly they take 0 risk IMO. AF CDG-JFK flights are always packed in all classes. I don't see why it would be different for this ORY flight.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:03 pm
by debonair
Quoting aidoair (Reply 27):
The Rolls Royce engined 767 can't have winglets fitted, This is due to the extra weight on the wing already.

Thanks for the info - didn't know that! Much appreciated!

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:21 am
by yoni
Quoting goldorak (Reply 25):
Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 18):
Are they just going to turn the aircraft around at JFK, or are they basing 77Es at ORY now too?
Quoting yoni (Reply 19):
AF 77Es will be based in ORY. AF have just started using 77Es for ORY-CAY as well (used to be A343s)

The ORY-JFK flight will be operated by a B772. It will be still based in CDG as per my understanding and will be turned around in JFK (W pattern).

As indicated on AF's corporate website, 77Es will be used for both JFK and CAY with the same seating : J35, W24, Y309. The 77Es are supposed to be reconfigured this year. Therefore I suppose that they could be used interchangeably on both routes.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:59 am
by uberflieger
Quoting goldorak (Reply 32):
AF has a lot of frequent flyers in this catchment area who will much prefer to fly AF rather than EC

That's most likely the real reason AF is starting ORY. Wouldn't surprise me if it is a reaction to losing a major corporate contract. The fact that Openskies is adding a flight has me wondering.   

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:10 am
by jfklganyc
Quoting goldorak (Reply 32):

Why wouldn't this work for AF ? If you leave in the south suburbs of Paris, going to CDG is a pain due to the traffic. So ORY is obviously a preferred choice for those people. I

If it's such a great route for them why hasn't it been flown in the last couple of decades?

It is a reaction route. Another airline starts it and the existing airline feels they have to defend a turf that was never theirs to begin with.

I give AF JFK-ORY 1 year or less before being moved back to CDG.

Similar to BA JFK-LGW (think it was just restarted...again)

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:02 am
by yoni
Quoting yoni (Reply 34):
As indicated on AF's corporate website, 77Es will be used for both JFK and CAY with the same seating : J35, W24, Y309. The 77Es are supposed to be reconfigured this year. Therefore I suppose that they could be used interchangeably on both routes.

I meant Y250 (not Y309).

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:02 am
by skipness1E
It's not true to say that all of the fleet have flown long and short haul. So far as I know, G-BNWA/B/Z and G-BZHA-C are exclusively short haul?

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:16 am
by Tristarsteve
Quoting VV701 (Reply 29):
What would be interesting to know are the cycles as well as the flying hours of each frame in BA's still operational 763 fleet.

Your wish,,, hrs and cycles as of 10 Apr
NWI 95772 17208
NWM 95454 16864
NWW 64977 20470
NWY 63188 18236

and for comparison

NWA 60256 31560
and the youngest
ZHC 44819 19386

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:58 pm
by GSTBA
Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 39):
ZHC 44819 19386

Apart from cabin refurbishment, would ZHA to ZHC need much in the way of modification to operate longhaul?.

BA now plan to not begin retiring there shorthaul 767 fleet until May 2018. They do still plan to retire the last aircraft in November 2018. BA had originally planned to begin retiring the shorthaul 767's in November 2017.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:29 pm
by vv701
Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 39):
Your wish,,,

Many thanks. I have to confess that when I typed my wish you did cross my mind. Again thank you.

Of the four I am not sure whether 'WI is the most appropriate frame for EC based on hours and cycles. But no doubt there are other factors like the timing of scheduled major maintenance.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 38):
It's not true to say that all of the fleet have flown long and short haul.

Yes. Thanks. On review I believe you are right. What I think is true that all of the BA 763 fleet (including those transferred to QF) operated at one time or another in short-haul configuration.

The frames you listed have only operated in short-haul configuration on the occasional long-haul rotation. Mostly this happened as a late substitute for a long-haul configured aircraft when there was an operational equipment shortage. Very rarely it was when a short-haul configured aircraft was purposefully scheduled to operate a long-haul service . An example was rotations operated by 'HC on 23/24 October and again on 7/8 November 2012. On both occasions it operated BA133/32. The first of these rotation operated LHR-JED-LHR. It provided an additional 60 seats compared to a long-haul configured 763. This was to cater for demand from Hajj Pilgrims on the outward flight. The second rotation operated LHR-JED-(ATH)-LHR. The technical stop at ATH was to refuel. This was necessary because of the combination of the heavy load of returning Pilgrims and the adverse wind direction/speed.

Of course neither of these types of substitution happened frequently enough to noticeably impact the aircrafts' accumulated total time or cycles.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:11 pm
by Curiousflyer
Does anyone know what those refurbished airplanes will look like inside?

Because for now the BizBed cabins resemble trailer houses near meth labs in West Virginia.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:34 pm
by BA174
I don't think G-BZH* series are ETOPs certified at all and I don't think G-BNWA/B//X/Z have done much long haul flying it all in their longer careers or if they even have ETOPs. The J cabin currently on the long haul 767s is more or less the same as OpenSkies Bizbed, the original flat bed design.

I would imagine the ex-L'avion frames with OpenSkies will be quite high hours and cycles for sure with one being with Condor and the other with Shanghi airlines for the bulk of their life's and both are around the same age as the first BA 767s.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:21 pm
by Tristarsteve
Quoting BA174 (Reply 43):
I don't think G-BZH* series are ETOPs certified at all

The seven short haul aircraft are not ETOPS certified, but they are identical to the ETOPS aircraft, and maintained to the same standard.
I believe that it would be quite easy to ETOPS certify one of them.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:44 pm
by EddieDude
Great news! I also wonder if the plan is for OpenSkies in the future to have an all-767 fleet formed by all ex-BA planes.

The article from Air Journal mentions that OpenSkies is in the middle of a plan to renovate the aircraft cabins and that the same will end next month. Anybody has any pictures or any details?

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:26 pm
by GSTBA
The 767 appears to be entering service with Openskies on 19th August. The aircraft is planned to operate BA8003 from ORY to EWR.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:16 pm
by BA174
I doubt much if anything will be done to the 767 other than possibly going into the French register as F-GNWI or similar?

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:26 pm
by lesfalls
Quoting GSTBA (Reply 46):

It doesn't make much sense if their aim was to compete against AF by placing it on their EWR-ORY route.

RE: Openskies To Get A 767

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:00 pm
by jumpjets
Just a thought - are the 757s due any major overhauls that might need a short term replacement to keep the schedule running?

If not it seems crazy to introduce 767s whose interiors leave much to be desired on what presumably is meant to be a competitor to a superior AF product.