Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 10
  • 11
 
YangFeng
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:52 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:37 pm

Not confirmed yet:
Sichuan Airlines (3U) applied for slots to extend their CTU-PRG flight to ZRH, 2x weekly from Apr 18.

In addition to their new 3x weekly YVR-ZRH flight operated by 787-8, Air Canada (AC) is likely to up-gauge their existing daily YYZ-ZRH operation from 787-9 to 700-300ER next summer (winter operations A333).

-------------------
Confirmed earlier and starting soon:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ce-in-w17/
S7 Airlines (S7) will operate St. Petersburg - ZRH twice a week with A319 starting in Dec 17.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -jan-2018/
VLM Airlines (VO) has opened bookings for twice daily Antwerp-Zurich flights from Jan 18, operated by Fokker 50.

------------------

About the rumored ET flights to Geneva: They are considering ZRH as well, albeit as an extension (maybe GVA, MXP or VIE?).
 
hynithuchi
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:28 pm

YangFeng wrote:
Not confirmed yet:
Sichuan Airlines (3U) applied for slots to extend their CTU-PRG flight to ZRH, 2x weekly from Apr 18.

In addition to their new 3x weekly YVR-ZRH flight operated by 787-8, Air Canada (AC) is likely to up-gauge their existing daily YYZ-ZRH operation from 787-9 to 700-300ER next summer (winter operations A333).

-------------------
Confirmed earlier and starting soon:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ce-in-w17/
S7 Airlines (S7) will operate St. Petersburg - ZRH twice a week with A319 starting in Dec 17.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -jan-2018/
VLM Airlines (VO) has opened bookings for twice daily Antwerp-Zurich flights from Jan 18, operated by Fokker 50.

------------------

About the rumored ET flights to Geneva: They are considering ZRH as well, albeit as an extension (maybe GVA, MXP or VIE?).

Can't see ET operating to GVA and ZRH. They don't have a very dense European network, so it wouldn't make sense operating to 2 airports in such a small country, all the more if they are already operating to MXP which is only a very short distance from the Swiss border. If they are looking at both airports, I can't help thinking they will decide on ZRH.. :cry:
 
xorrygva
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:32 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:15 pm

I don't know where this rumor on ET in ZRH is coming from but I don't expect anything in the short term. ET is focusing on GVA at the moment. From Switzerland, the African market (excl South Africa) is more important from GVA than ZRH.
 
stylo777
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:07 am

LX8626 wrote:
There are currently three A330-200 ex airberlin stored in ZRH.
D-ALPD
D-ALPE
D-ABXD

Each frame is missing one engine.

All three aircraft belonging to lessor AerCap and waiting for a next operator.

...seems like one of the three 332's has been pushed away.
getting ready for the next operator?
 
trijetsonly
Posts: 737
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:38 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:10 am

stylo777 wrote:
LX8626 wrote:
There are currently three A330-200 ex airberlin stored in ZRH.
D-ALPD
D-ALPE
D-ABXD

Each frame is missing one engine.

All three aircraft belonging to lessor AerCap and waiting for a next operator.

...seems like one of the three 332's has been pushed away.
getting ready for the next operator?


D-ALPD and D-ALPE should be going to Wamos Air
I have no idea where D-ABXD is going.
Happy Landings
 
User avatar
LX8626
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:42 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:39 pm

EDELWEISS NEWS for WINTER 2018/2019

new edelweiss longhaul destinations for winter 18/19:
ZRH-EZE starting 07NOV18 on day 3 and 7 with A343
ZRH-CMB starting 03NOV18 on day 4 and 6 with A343
ZRH-SGN starting 15NOV18 on day 1 and 4 with A343
ZRH-SEZ starting 22SEP18 on day 6 with A343
ZRH-VRA starting 02NOV18 on day 5 with A343

Increasing flights on following routs for winter 18/19:
ZRH-SJO by 1/7 to 3/7
ZRH-PUJ by 1/7 to 3/7
ZRH-CPT by 1/7 to 4/7
ZRH-CUN by 1/7 to 3/7

For summer 2018 several shorthaul destinations will be increased.

Will be officially announced by edelweiss tomorrow 30.11.2017 18:00 (ZRH LT).
 
DALCE
Posts: 1994
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:45 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:19 pm

nice info, Some are expected and/or already announced, but especially SGN surprises me somewhat.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,223,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
Gaetan
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 1:32 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:40 pm

It's a very smart move from WK to open those routes such as EZE, SEZ, CMB and SGN. Some aren't operated by the LH Group. It will permit to offer a good alternative to the ME3 carriers.

Sadly, I hoped that WK will open some long haul routes from GVA with low fequencies like BKK or/and LAX. Maybe later !
 
User avatar
SR380
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:01 pm

Gaetan wrote:
It's a very smart move from WK to open those routes such as EZE, SEZ, CMB and SGN. Some aren't operated by the LH Group. It will permit to offer a good alternative to the ME3 carriers.

Sadly, I hoped that WK will open some long haul routes from GVA with low fequencies like BKK or/and LAX. Maybe later !


Maybe once the new terminal is open!
 
stylo777
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:11 pm

With more equipment and capacities a W-pattern would even be an option. But for the time being, everything goes from ZRH.
 
xorrygva
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:32 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:21 pm

Sadly I understand that Edelweiss' management has no interest in GVA, in particular for long-hauls. WK was approached for Mauritius but declined the offer, clearly denying the demand and the economics of a flight between MRU and GVA...MK's first two flights are almost full.
I don't expect WK's flights from GVA in the near future.
 
MoonC
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:26 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:28 pm

Never, in Edelweiss' 22 years of flying did they ever land a widebody at Geneva, never!
 
hynithuchi
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:37 am

Routeplanning is obviously coordinated between WK and LX, both of them owned by LH. They don't compete but channel and share the Swiss l/h market through ZRH and I'm sure every new route has to be approved by LH. Didn't a LX spokesman say the other day in relation to F7 stopping operations from LUG: our airport of reference is ZRH. So guys, stop dreaming about WK/LX longhaul flights and keep hoping they'll keep the JFK flight from GVA as well as a few European destinations. Somehow I get the feeling they are sorely tempted to repeat the "Pendulaire" exercice which SR introduced in 1996.
 
kottok
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:58 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:20 am

Hey @hynithuchi, it's crazy how pessimist or septic you are regarding Geneva operations.
Even though I strongly believe we won't see more long haul from LX in GVA for the next decade - if we see it one day -, their JFK flight is, from their words, the most profitable flight in their full long haul network ( including ZRH ). So we might not expect closure anytime soon.
Most of the time, GVA has better yields than ZRH, it is just lacking volume.

On a sidenote, LX is considering basing a new aircraft in GVA for the next summer to increase frequencies on key business routes ( NCE, from what I have heard ) and to open BEY - though unconfirmed yet.
Finally, ET is getting pretty serious on the western side of Switzerland. Lets not forget the CEO has not "considered" GVA as a potential new destination but has announced at several occasions the launch of GVA as of 2018, so pretty good vibes from Africa. :)
 
runway23
Posts: 2373
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:24 am

Honestly LX loses tons of money ex GVA on their short haul network and only manages to break even thanks to JFK. GVA-ZRH contributes very favorably to the network (but goes under ZRH P&L AFAIK) so neither of these two routes are going anywhere...

That said, the leadership Swiss have in GVA are shockingly poor (I’m being polite here) everything they do is poor in execution (most glaringly the route planning and scheduling) - if you offer the wrong routes at the wrong times even low fares don’t fill up planes...

Based on the poor job Swiss has done in GVA (the market works for all other airlines except them) I don’t see why Swiss or Edelweiss would add any long haul flight from Geneva. On a personal note I fail to understand why heads haven’t rolled at LX management at GVA.
 
hynithuchi
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:17 am

Hey Kottok, sorry, but 45 years of expereince at GVA airport ( whereof partly with SR ) have taught me not to expect too much from a ZRH based airline. I may sound pessimistic, but that way, I'm never too disappointed when all the ropes are pulled in favour of ZRH . If things work out positively, I'm quite happy to be proved wrong, but based on my long work experience, I'd rather call myself a realist :D
 
kottok
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:58 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:42 am

Yeah from a ZRH based carrier, I agree we can't expect a lot regarding GVA, but by reading your latest post, even Ethiopia or Honk Kong or anywhere else based airline are unrealistic for GVA. It may seem that those 45 years in GVA have got your realism a little too pessimistic but as, a newcomer in the GVA aviation world, I work on very nice project that confers me a lot of hope concerning the development of the airport. Lot of things are coming and Zurich won't see it coming :P
 
hynithuchi
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:16 am

kottok wrote:
Yeah from a ZRH based carrier, I agree we can't expect a lot regarding GVA, but by reading your latest post, even Ethiopia or Honk Kong or anywhere else based airline are unrealistic for GVA. It may seem that those 45 years in GVA have got your realism a little too pessimistic but as, a newcomer in the GVA aviation world, I work on very nice project that confers me a lot of hope concerning the development of the airport. Lot of things are coming and Zurich won't see it coming :P

Music for my ears, but my realistic self still says that seeing is believing. I sincerely hope that your optimism will pay off. :thumbsup:
 
User avatar
SR380
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:11 pm

kottok wrote:
Yeah from a ZRH based carrier, I agree we can't expect a lot regarding GVA, but by reading your latest post, even Ethiopia or Honk Kong or anywhere else based airline are unrealistic for GVA. It may seem that those 45 years in GVA have got your realism a little too pessimistic but as, a newcomer in the GVA aviation world, I work on very nice project that confers me a lot of hope concerning the development of the airport. Lot of things are coming and Zurich won't see it coming :P


Hmmmmm an insider. Good news there. Any hope for a descent check-in hall in the futur? :-)
 
runway23
Posts: 2373
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:19 pm

SR380 wrote:
kottok wrote:
Yeah from a ZRH based carrier, I agree we can't expect a lot regarding GVA, but by reading your latest post, even Ethiopia or Honk Kong or anywhere else based airline are unrealistic for GVA. It may seem that those 45 years in GVA have got your realism a little too pessimistic but as, a newcomer in the GVA aviation world, I work on very nice project that confers me a lot of hope concerning the development of the airport. Lot of things are coming and Zurich won't see it coming :P


Hmmmmm an insider. Good news there. Any hope for a descent check-in hall in the futur? :-)


I’m not sure there will be a checkin hall descending anywhere... ;-)

If you mean decent then there’s the Cointrin vision project that has still to be formally announced. Under the old management the project was supposed to be built over the A1 and include a huge shopping centre. That has changed with the new management but the overall gist of the project is still there (add check-in, offices, hotel, multi-modal transport hub).
 
User avatar
SR380
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:37 pm

runway23 wrote:
SR380 wrote:
kottok wrote:
Yeah from a ZRH based carrier, I agree we can't expect a lot regarding GVA, but by reading your latest post, even Ethiopia or Honk Kong or anywhere else based airline are unrealistic for GVA. It may seem that those 45 years in GVA have got your realism a little too pessimistic but as, a newcomer in the GVA aviation world, I work on very nice project that confers me a lot of hope concerning the development of the airport. Lot of things are coming and Zurich won't see it coming :P


Hmmmmm an insider. Good news there. Any hope for a descent check-in hall in the futur? :-)


I’m not sure there will be a checkin hall descending anywhere... ;-)

If you mean decent then there’s the Cointrin vision project that has still to be formally announced. Under the old management the project was supposed to be built over the A1 and include a huge shopping centre. That has changed with the new management but the overall gist of the project is still there (add check-in, offices, hotel, multi-modal transport hub).


I have read about « Cointrin Vision » too. Although I am not sure this will materialized. But honestly somethings has to be done quickly. The check in area is a disgrace, arrival floor too. Let’s not talk about the satellites which are completely outdated... I really hope that the new director, with its experience at EPFL, will finally no something about it...
 
User avatar
SR380
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:57 am

Air Madagascar to open Geneva following new take over by Air Austral (in French):

http://www.lexpressmada.com/blog/actual ... strategie/

Is this really that much of a destination? I can’t believe that we might see a Geneva-Antanarivo before a Geneva-Singapore....
 
hynithuchi
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:57 am

Excellent, I hope this project will materialise. You also seem to hope for a direct link with SIN, are you sure this is possible ? Does the current air service agreement between Switzerland and Singapore allow SIN more than 1 destination in Switzerland since Singapore obviously can't offer more than SIN airport ?
 
User avatar
SR380
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:25 pm

hynithuchi wrote:
Excellent, I hope this project will materialise. You also seem to hope for a direct link with SIN, are you sure this is possible ? Does the current air service agreement between Switzerland and Singapore allow SIN more than 1 destination in Switzerland since Singapore obviously can't offer more than SIN airport ?


Lorenzo Stoll, Swiss International Airlines director for the Romandie, previously mentioned new Far East destinations once the new widebody pier is open.

https://mobile2.tdg.ch/articles/551ae3f ... b9bb000354

I recall that when I was working for the second handling agent in Geneva, we had hundreds of passengers flying daily to SIN. I don’t know about the possibilities of a direct flight. I am just assuming.

Africa is such a market, I wonder how come Antanarivo would open before Abidjan or any major cities...
 
hynithuchi
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:57 pm

As far as Mr Stoll's interview is concerned, it dates back to 2014 and in the meantime the situation has changed for LX. I really can't see them opening l/h from GVA, rather they operate additional ZRH /SIN flights than a flight from GVA. The ZRH hub system allows them to fill up nearly longhaul flight and as for GVA orginating traffic, they can always increase capacity on their GVA/ZRH flights. GVA would practically depend on originating traffic only as LX feeding possibilities would be mininal andprobably salvage the existing ZRH flight.
I could immagine SQ, however but I believe that would have to be approved within STAR alliance ( I believe SQ is member ).
Another interesting example is CX. They have anounced 4 weekly flights in 2018 to DUB. According to ANNA.aero, the current number of passengers is 40 000 pa, HKG/DUB while GVA is the the largest unserved market from HKG with 44000 passengers in 2016 and expected to rise to 58000 in 2018. And still no direct flight in sight although the CX Manager for Central and Estern Europe recently said that the airline wanted to increase it's presence and number of destinations in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. A few days later, CX announced BRU,CPH and DUB.
Does GVA really stand a chance when it comes to opening l/h services of STAR alliance members or are such attempts killed off in favour of FRA/MUC/VIE and ZRH ? I'm aware that UA and AC operate to GVA but these services have a very strong commercial and political backing ( UN and othe political organisations ), which cannot be said for other potential services.
 
User avatar
SR380
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:34 pm

hynithuchi wrote:
As far as Mr Stoll's interview is concerned, it dates back to 2014 and in the meantime the situation has changed for LX. I really can't see them opening l/h from GVA, rather they operate additional ZRH /SIN flights than a flight from GVA. The ZRH hub system allows them to fill up nearly longhaul flight and as for GVA orginating traffic, they can always increase capacity on their GVA/ZRH flights. GVA would practically depend on originating traffic only as LX feeding possibilities would be mininal andprobably salvage the existing ZRH flight.
I could immagine SQ, however but I believe that would have to be approved within STAR alliance ( I believe SQ is member ).
Another interesting example is CX. They have anounced 4 weekly flights in 2018 to DUB. According to ANNA.aero, the current number of passengers is 40 000 pa, HKG/DUB while GVA is the the largest unserved market from HKG with 44000 passengers in 2016 and expected to rise to 58000 in 2018. And still no direct flight in sight although the CX Manager for Central and Estern Europe recently said that the airline wanted to increase it's presence and number of destinations in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. A few days later, CX announced BRU,CPH and DUB.
Does GVA really stand a chance when it comes to opening l/h services of STAR alliance members or are such attempts killed off in favour of FRA/MUC/VIE and ZRH ? I'm aware that UA and AC operate to GVA but these services have a very strong commercial and political backing ( UN and othe political organisations ), which cannot be said for other potential services.


I think we have to wait and see. According to PISA plan the trafic is expected to rise up to 25M pax in the next 10-15 years. I hope that some of those will fly on L/H and not only on U2.
 
YangFeng
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:52 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:05 pm

hynithuchi wrote:
Another interesting example is CX. They have anounced 4 weekly flights in 2018 to DUB. According to ANNA.aero, the current number of passengers is 40 000 pa, HKG/DUB while GVA is the the largest unserved market from HKG with 44000 passengers in 2016 and expected to rise to 58000 in 2018. And still no direct flight in sight although the CX Manager for Central and Estern Europe recently said that the airline wanted to increase it's presence and number of destinations in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. A few days later, CX announced BRU,CPH and DUB.

Wow, more than 30% growth in two years in the GVA-HKG market? That makes GVA the largest unserved market by far. Still, I was surprised to see Brian talking about increasing their presence in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. DUS and ZRH are among the worst performing airports in their European network and for ZRH they've only been talking about the A350 for the last 12-18 months (280 seats vs. 275 for the 777, but minus FCL).
 
xorrygva
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:32 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:14 am

That's interesting, I knew that DUS was not performing for CX but I am surprised that ZRH is also a low performer despite high yields and higher volumes.
With regards to GVA, the airport is pushing for it but I wouldn't expect anything before Summer 2020 when the new terminal will be finally inaugurated.
 
YangFeng
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:52 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:48 am

xorrygva wrote:
That's interesting, I knew that DUS was not performing for CX but I am surprised that ZRH is also a low performer despite high yields and higher volumes.
With regards to GVA, the airport is pushing for it but I wouldn't expect anything before Summer 2020 when the new terminal will be finally inaugurated.


High volumes is certainly true but I don't know where you get the idea that they have high yields other than ZRH generally being a very high yielding market. It's also very expensive to operate and there is quite a bit of overcapacity and cargo yields are down sharply. It's not their worst performing destination but in the bottom five in Europe.
----------------
It's hard to see how they will expand in Switzerland in the current environment. Opening GVA would set them back in ZRH when it's already not going too well. And while LX is already a formidable competitor, things are only going to get worse if Chinese carriers start to operate SZX-ZRH now that the Chinese government decided to turn Shenzhen into a major aviation hub.
 
YangFeng
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:52 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:53 am

YangFeng wrote:
Not confirmed yet:
Sichuan Airlines (3U) applied for slots to extend their CTU-PRG flight to ZRH, 2x weekly from Apr 18.


Update: They are now planning to fly the route 3x weekly.
 
xorrygva
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:32 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:37 am

Thanks for the clarification. Let's see what happens, quite a bit of new parameters coming into the equation in the next few years.
But whilst I believe that SZH will become a much largest hub and demand will increase, most demand for that region in the near future will remain at HKG, especially from Switzerland. Also you need to take into account that CX is well perceived here, this is not the case of most of the Chinese airlines. Even Air China, much better known than Hainan or Sichuan, from GVA is not capturing the majority of the GVA-PEK market.
CX could think of lowering its frequencies from ZRH and start 4 weekly from GVA which is a market on its own btw.
 
User avatar
SR380
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:56 am

xorrygva wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. Let's see what happens, quite a bit of new parameters coming into the equation in the next few years.
But whilst I believe that SZH will become a much largest hub and demand will increase, most demand for that region in the near future will remain at HKG, especially from Switzerland. Also you need to take into account that CX is well perceived here, this is not the case of most of the Chinese airlines. Even Air China, much better known than Hainan or Sichuan, from GVA is not capturing the majority of the GVA-PEK market.
CX could think of lowering its frequencies from ZRH and start 4 weekly from GVA which is a market on its own btw.


Well isn’t also because the service is not quite the same. I am going to fly to DPRK next September via PEK. And I rather fly GVA-ZRH-PEK than the direct flight on Air China...
 
xorrygva
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:32 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:04 am

The service is different, you are right. That's exactely why CA is not caputuring the local Geneva market. I would probably do the same than you.
 
YangFeng
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:52 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:39 am

xorrygva wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. Let's see what happens, quite a bit of new parameters coming into the equation in the next few years.
But whilst I believe that SZH will become a much largest hub and demand will increase, most demand for that region in the near future will remain at HKG, especially from Switzerland. Also you need to take into account that CX is well perceived here, this is not the case of most of the Chinese airlines. Even Air China, much better known than Hainan or Sichuan, from GVA is not capturing the majority of the GVA-PEK market.
CX could think of lowering its frequencies from ZRH and start 4 weekly from GVA which is a market on its own btw.


I agree re service, Air China is probably one of the worst in *A in terms of service. But it might not even matter with their customers being 80-90% Chinese. A lot of demand from HKG is also coming from Shenzhen, which is outgrowing Hong Kong in terms of GDP but lacking international services. I believe it's safe to say that tourists will still mainly go to Hong Kong but if Hainan decides to fly ZRH-SZX, this could seriously hurt CX. GVA is a destination in its own right but it's still a very hard choice to offer both GVA and ZRH.

How much of the GVA-PEK market is CA capturing? What's the total? I believe they are down to 3x weekly at GVA and 4x weekly ZRH so flying to Switzerland daily.
 
MoonC
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:26 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:18 pm

Chen Ge, general manager of Air China for Switzerland, was already talking about the 787-9 being the "next step" for Zurich on the day of the first flight.
Nothing of that sort was said about Geneva.
It was in the Swiss press. Blick and TDG.
 
hynithuchi
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:38 pm

Well guys, everyone is moaning about the lack of direct l/h services from GVA and then it turns out that whenever a foreign airline offers a direct link, the same people travel from ZRH or even LYS. Beats me, seems we should have invested in a highspeed rail link to ZRH instead of wasting our money on a new widebody terminal for airlines which nobody wants to fly with.
 
User avatar
SR380
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:10 pm

hynithuchi wrote:
Well guys, everyone is moaning about the lack of direct l/h services from GVA and then it turns out that whenever a foreign airline offers a direct link, the same people travel from ZRH or even LYS. Beats me, seems we should have invested in a highspeed rail link to ZRH instead of wasting our money on a new widebody terminal for airlines which nobody wants to fly with.


It actually depends on who airlines you are talking about. Air China and Swiss offer flight at almost the same price tag. So yeah I rather do the stop over. Now if ET opens Geneva, I’ll be delighted to fly GVA-ADD-CPT...
 
YangFeng
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:52 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:00 pm

MoonC wrote:
Chen Ge, general manager of Air China for Switzerland, was already talking about the 787-9 being the "next step" for Zurich on the day of the first flight.
Nothing of that sort was said about Geneva.
It was in the Swiss press. Blick and TDG.


The next step would be increasing frequencies to go daily with the same aircraft A330-200. Current LF is not permitting such a move just yet. I think the biggest issue currently is the flight time, being just 55min apart from LX and just 15min this past summer. It would make sense for the JV for one carrier to change to an evening departure.
 
hynithuchi
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:17 pm

YangFeng wrote:
MoonC wrote:
Chen Ge, general manager of Air China for Switzerland, was already talking about the 787-9 being the "next step" for Zurich on the day of the first flight.
Nothing of that sort was said about Geneva.
It was in the Swiss press. Blick and TDG.


The next step would be increasing frequencies to go daily with the same aircraft A330-200. Current LF is not permitting such a move just yet. I think the biggest issue currently is the flight time, being just 55min apart from LX and just 15min this past summer. It would make sense for the JV for one carrier to change to an evening departure.

They might well transfer their 3 flights to ZRH, making it daily without increasing their capacity to Switzerland. As from what i've read on this forum, Air China service doesn't seem to meet GVA standard requirements but I'm sure ZRH wouldn't mind :( .
 
YangFeng
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:52 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:51 pm

While GVA was only opened because HU had route authority for ZRH-PEK and even though they would probably want to focus on the LHG hubs FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE, I don't think they will give up GVA that easily. The flight seems to be going quite well, despite some opposing comments here. Does anyone have some statistics?
 
xorrygva
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:32 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:19 am

The CA flight to GVA won't be stopped since it is an important link to the UN and some other intl organisations. My understanding is that the flight is still not really profitable since it doesn't capture business travelers but it is slowly getting better. I hear that it is not one of the worst performer in CA's European network though. Note that, similarity to what has been mentioned with ZRH, CA claimed at the beginning that it wanted to introduce the B773 on the PEK-GVA flight (for first class) and increase the frequencies. It won't happen for a while.
 
xorrygva
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:32 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:35 am

Another point I forgot to make is that the yield for HKG from GVA is almost 3 times higher that for PEK. Volumes to HKG are also not much lower than PEK despite not having a direct flight (which usually boosts volumes). I think a flight GVA-HKG could be profitable with 4/5 frequencies on a B773.
 
hynithuchi
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:28 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:27 am

YangFeng wrote:
While GVA was only opened because HU had route authority for ZRH-PEK and even though they would probably want to focus on the LHG hubs FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE, I don't think they will give up GVA that easily. The flight seems to be going quite well, despite some opposing comments here. Does anyone have some statistics?

I think that one of the reasons to choose GVA was the location of all these international organisations and China's important diplomatic presence in GVA, beside intense lobbying by GVA airport authorities. By the time CA started in 2012, HU had already stopped their ZRH service and their route authority had been revoked, so nothing would have stopped CA to open ZRH before GVA. Besides, CA had already operated to ZRH for a long time before cancelling their flights in the early 2000.
 
MoonC
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:26 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:51 am

xorrygva wrote:
The CA flight to GVA won't be stopped since it is an important link to the UN and some other intl organisations. My understanding is that the flight is still not really profitable since it doesn't capture business travelers but it is slowly getting better. I hear that it is not one of the worst performer in CA's European network though. Note that, similarity to what has been mentioned with ZRH, CA claimed at the beginning that it wanted to introduce the B773 on the PEK-GVA flight (for first class) and increase the frequencies. It won't happen for a while.


It's great that you mention the 77W.
On June 7th 2015, we had the visit of one, and the reason was exactly that, the need of first class.
I photographed it but it's burried in my files somewhere, here's the video filmed by another guy instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4ZhgzyPGfI
 
pmartin
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:33 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:50 pm

CA transported around 35,000 Pax over 9 months (plus 7.4 pct) and is on track to reach 50,000 by year end. That’s about 75pct load across the year on 3 weekly frequency. Doing ok and probably not going anywhere.
 
MoonC
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:26 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:19 pm

pmartin wrote:
CA transported around 35,000 Pax over 9 months (plus 7.4 pct) and is on track to reach 50,000 by year end. That’s about 75pct load across the year on 3 weekly frequency. Doing ok and probably not going anywhere.


How is business class doing?
 
YangFeng
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:52 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:54 pm

hynithuchi wrote:
I think that one of the reasons to choose GVA was the location of all these international organisations and China's important diplomatic presence in GVA, beside intense lobbying by GVA airport authorities. By the time CA started in 2012, HU had already stopped their ZRH service and their route authority had been revoked, so nothing would have stopped CA to open ZRH before GVA. Besides, CA had already operated to ZRH for a long time before cancelling their flights in the early 2000.


Not quite. CA opened GVA in mid 2013 and HU stopped ZRH at the of Sep 2013. At the time, they still had their office in Zurich from the early 2000s but as far as I know no presence in Geneva. I don't doubt that Geneva is an important destination (diplomats, international organizations, banking, tourism) and that airport authorities were lobbying Air China. But they still wanted to fly to ZRH instead as it's clearly the bigger market (and offers way more connections too). When Hainan Airlines started their operation, LX didn't even serve PEK. Now ZRH-PEK is at 11x weekly in summer and 9x weekly in winter and will likely increase even further. As I mentioned, I don't think CA will give up GVA because it's a destination in its own right but saying they chose GVA over ZRH is just wishful thinking.
------
If CA serves around 50'000 pax per annum, this can't be just their direct service from GVA to PEK because that would be 320 pax per flight whereas capacity is 227. So this must include flights via ZRH or even FRA/MUC. Not sure how the 75% load factor is calculated here but it sounds about right anyway.
------
If CX opens GVA (and that's a big if), I strongly suspect it will be a A350 destination, 3-4 weekly flights.
 
pmartin
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:33 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:43 pm

At 50,000, it is two ways: 160 per flight.
 
YangFeng
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:52 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:24 pm

pmartin wrote:
At 50,000, it is two ways: 160 per flight.


Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense. Somehow I wasn't even thinking about this. Silly me.
 
pmartin
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:33 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread 41

Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:58 pm

The figures are from the Swiss Federal Statistics, direct pax. For the 12 months to 30 September ( ie Q4 16 to Q3 17), total departing pax are 25,168 or 50,336 if departures pax are multiplied by 2. That’s 160 pax per flight. About 70 pct load (around January / February typically only 2 flights per week). No clue how C is doing.
  • 1
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 10
  • 11

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos