art
Topic Author
Posts: 3239
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

A380 News/discussion

Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:31 pm

There does not seem to be a way to report A380 news for things that do not warrant starting a thread so I thought I'd start something for general A380 news/discussion.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:36 pm

It will fail. It will fail. It will be an utter failure.

The wing sucks.

It is not profitable.

We are all doomed.

 .
 
art
Topic Author
Posts: 3239
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:37 pm

Etihad posts record A380 reliability performance

Etihad Airways recorded 99.8% reliability in its first year of operating the Airbus A380-800, the best performance level of any airline to have introduced the aircraft, the carrier said April 11 after receiving the Airbus Operational Reliability Performance award.

The 0.2% of reliability problems in the January-December 2015 period did not include any cancellations, the Abu Dhabi-based carrier added.

http://atwonline.com/airbus-a380/eti...ecord-a380-reliability-performance
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4131
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:41 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
It will fail. It will fail. It will be an utter failure.

The wing sucks.

It is not profitable.

We are all doomed.

You forgot another point: it's ugly, discussion finished  
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22947
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:15 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 3):
You forgot another point

Yes, and it single-handedly caused the immigrant crisis because millions of poor people saw how the governments of Europe would spend lavishly on any silly idea that popped into their heads. Luckily it is all working out because these governments are now turning white-tail A380s into homes for the immigrants and these immigrants are being given jobs for life making more A380 houses.

[Edited 2016-04-12 06:39:40]
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3276
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:00 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
It will fail. It will fail. It will be an utter failure.

The wing sucks.

It is not profitable.

We are all doomed.

 .

Quite funny thread, And I think its great to keep only the news on the A380 in one place. Since the shortcomings and business case (and wing) have been discussed add nauseaum, I think this thread should only discuss, news and ops of the A380 it not save us from the never ending weekly A380 is doomed threads but at least it could be used only for ops and news on the Aircraft itself…

Regards

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
lancelot07
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:22 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:28 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
We are all doomed.

But salvation is just around the corner ! Cancel it, and build more A350s - and we are blessed. On that news, i would buy shares  
 
art
Topic Author
Posts: 3239
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:23 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 6):
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):We are all doomed.
But salvation is just around the corner ! Cancel it, and build more A350s - and we are blessed. On that news, i would buy shares

Why cancel if they can be assembled at more than break even? And over its operating life each new aircraft assembled will need a host of spares that are undoubtedly sold at a profit.  
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22947
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:53 pm

Quoting art (Reply 7):
And over its operating life each new aircraft assembled will need a host of spares that are undoubtedly sold at a profit.

Especially if the parts crack shortly after being assembled!   
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9388
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:53 pm

Quoting art (Reply 7):
Why cancel if they can be assembled at more than break even? And over its operating life each new aircraft assembled will need a host of spares that are undoubtedly sold at a profit.

Do not try to start with logic.
 
lancelot07
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:22 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:02 pm

Quoting art (Reply 7):
Why cancel if they can be assembled at more than break even?

Because their other products offer a better return on investors money ? And those need spares, too. Which in turn offers a better return.
 
art
Topic Author
Posts: 3239
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:26 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 10):
Because their other products offer a better return on investors money ? And those need spares, too. Which in turn offers a better return.

Thought someone would say that. But if it suits a customer who has paid a deposit on an A380 to have an A330/A350 instead, are they asking Airbus to approve switching to an Airbus twin? If Airbus cancelled A380 they would need to return the deposit (perhaps with some compensation for breach of contract, too?) and what would stop what was going to be an Airbus customer ordering 777X instead?
 
User avatar
Matt6461
Posts: 2953
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:36 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:00 am

Quoting art (Reply 11):
deposit on an A380

Deposits are typically 1-2% of purchase price.

Compare the net value of A380 backlog versus A350 sales:

-A350 will be, at mature production, probably a ~20% margin plane.
-A380 backlog is at best breakeven (marginally profitable through 2017, likely unprofitable thereafter)

...even with forfeiting a 1-2% deposit, Airbus would come out ahead financially if it earned a fraction of the "A380 substitute" market. The potential windfall to Boeing shouldn't matter to a rational corporation - only matters here.

With the "A350-8000" stretch, Airbus would have a great chance of winning half of the "substitute" market.

Now this is a problem:

Quoting art (Reply 11):
compensation for breach of contract

...because EK is pretty well-set on getting its A380's. Even if every other airline woudn't mind being let off the hook for its A380 orders, Airbus' liability to EK swamps everything else most likely. So Airbus is probably tied to this zombie for better or worse.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
It is not profitable.

A factual statement....

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
The wing sucks.

An overstatement, but I think we all recognize the wing is suboptimal - especially by today's standards.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):

It will fail. It will fail. It will be an utter failure.

Certainly by the stated terms of its launch and by any financial reckoning it has already failed.

But perhaps in the broader picture it succeeded in birthing the modern Airbus as the world's leading aerospace company.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:14 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 12):
Certainly by the stated terms of its launch and by any financial reckoning it has already failed.

I don't care.

I regard the A380 as a magnificent achievement, and it is the only aircraft on which I don't get claustrophobia after about 7 hours. As a passenger, I seek it out.

What amazes me is the negativity that some here have towards the aircraft, as if it is their money at stake.

I come here to talk about airlines and airliners - I don't come here to discuss finance and profit and loss accounts. I go to financial websites for that.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
Matt6461
Posts: 2953
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:36 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:51 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
I regard the A380 as a magnificent achievement,
Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
As a passenger, I seek it out.

I agree with these statements but only wish I agreed with this one:

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
I don't come here to discuss finance and profit and loss accounts

If you read everything I post here (you certainly shouldn't), you'd see me getting flack for saying things, "screw the shareholders, I'd rather see a new plane." That applies to Boeing and Airbus - actually more to Boeing because it's a more ethically challenged company IMO (torture, drones, militarism for example).

But I also recognize that financial success determines the extent to which the pleasure of flying the A380 is widely available - to myself and to others.
The crude fact about our crude (mostly) capitalist world is that if doesn't play on Wall Street it won't play much at all.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:28 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 14):
If you read everything I post here (you certainly shouldn't), you'd see me getting flack for saying things, "screw the shareholders, I'd rather see a new plane."

I never say "screw the shareholders" - I own a few shares in an airline - LOL.

It simply isn't why I come to a.net because much of the financial information here is either ill-informed or partisan.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
Matt6461
Posts: 2953
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:36 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:47 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
I own a few shares in an airline

Via index funds, same here. I'm only talking about OEM's btw - their loss in building a new plane can be the airline industry's gain. That's true of the A380 IMO.
No single security should be more than 1% of one's portfolio unless you're a Buffett-level prognosticator. I'd gladly lose .1% of my net worth to see the A380 or similar VLA sell 1,000 frames.
 
goosebayguy
Posts: 698
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:12 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:20 am

I always wonder how it is that EK make it work and work so well yet other airlines which do exactly the same as EK simply fail. BA should be the link from the east to the west especially the USA. Is it their choice of smaller feeder aircraft to blame whereas EK use 777's as feeders? If say BA or any other airline tried to take EK on whch routes would they upgrade to 777 from A320's etc?
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:35 am

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 17):
I always wonder how it is that EK make it work and work so well yet other airlines which do exactly the same as EK simply fail

Don't Forget the US-Europe/UK market is a rather old one. So the growth is smaller than, lets say, in the Asia Region.

Also, flights to the US are only around 7-9 hours usually, while flights to Asia from Europe usually last around 10 hours. So 4-5 hours to Dubai and 4-5 hours to the Destination is something different than flying just 1 hour from Europe to LHR and again flying 7 hours to the US.

Also, LHR is probably another reason why People do not fly BA.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9292
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:43 am

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 17):
I always wonder how it is that EK make it work and work so well yet other airlines which do exactly the same as EK simply fail.

The management people scape is dominated by Cargo Culters. They don't have any original thoughts on their own.
( Maybe except how to move value accumulated in the commons into their private coffers.)

The successfull participants have good objective ( those of the commercial entity,
not their own ) oriented management
_and_ are not dependent on the whims of the stock market imbeciles.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
Matt6461
Posts: 2953
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:36 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:12 am

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 17):

I always wonder how it is that EK make it work and work so well yet other airlines which do exactly the same as EK simply fail

EK has a much lower cost structure than airlines based in the West or developed East - owing primarily to lower labor costs.
EK combines this intrinsic advantage with fleet efficiency (A380 and 77W mostly) to achieve ~25% lower unit costs than the average of BA and VS. http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...-new-model-not-unpicking-it-147262
It then leverages its geographical location to create an operational scale that can fill A380's and "feeder" widebodies - a chicken/egg problem for would-be EK's that bespeaks the visionaries behind it.

So yes, the A380 is a big part of why EK is so successful.
But EK also needs its intrinsically lower cost base to make its business model work - its profit margin is no higher than BA/VS and would disappear without the labor cost advantage.

BA, for example, could decrease its unit costs by ~10% by going "all/mostly A380" like EK. But BA's yield/RASM would suffer greatly if it did so: BA would either have to (1) backfill added capacity with lower-yielding transfer and leisure pax or (2) decrease frequencies and lose higher-yielding pax.
EK, by contrast, is already predominantly transfer pax, so its yield doesn't decline much by expanding gauge and overall capacity to attract more transfer pax. It achieves similar profitability to BA via lower RASM and CASM.

In sum:
The A380's efficiency explains a lot of EK's success; that success is likely not replicable beyond EK.
 
Flyglobal
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:25 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:22 am

One thing to mention: A-net needs at least 1 A380 Thread a week for generating traffic.
Having it in one thread only is not enough.

But to discuss the same items over and over: keep both: this thread and a subject specific one each week.


Flyglobal

PS: enjoy each A380 thread.
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3664
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:40 am

Speaking of things A380; which airport sees the greatest number of different carriers these days serving it with the mega-jet?

Actually, anyone have stats on what airports are served by the A380 and by which carriers?

AKL in little old New Zealand had 4 x EK A380's on its apron recently. What a shame the SQ A380 had finished its summer season.
come visit the south pacific
 
lancelot07
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:22 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:55 am

Quoting art (Reply 11):
If Airbus cancelled A380 they would need to return the deposit (perhaps with some compensation for breach of contract, too?) and what would stop what was going to be an Airbus customer ordering 777X instead?

Sure they would have to return the deposit, and pay a compensation. But they also may choose to deliver those already sold and then stop it in a few years.

If an airline thinks the 777X is what is best for them, they will buy it anyway. Business is not about emotions, it is about money.

btw, some airline stock are with me, too. But none with A380s in the fleet.:D
 
jumpjet
Posts: 325
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:11 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:47 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
I don't care.

I regard the A380 as a magnificent achievement, and it is the only aircraft on which I don't get claustrophobia after about 7 hours. As a passenger, I seek it out.

What amazes me is the negativity that some here have towards the aircraft, as if it is their money at stake.

I come here to talk about airlines and airliners - I don't come here to discuss finance and profit and loss accounts. I go to financial websites for that.

Ditto...... I go out of my way to book a seat on one of these things above all else...
 
alyusuph
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:38 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:05 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
It will fail. It will fail. It will be an utter failure.

The wing sucks.

It is not profitable.

We are all doomed.

There is no doubt the Leviathan A380 is a magnificent technological achievement, but the game changing A350 and the 787 aircraft sales are a testimony that the point to point model designed aircraft (though most of which still operate in the hub to spoke basis) are holding the fort.
I am not an Airbus or Boeing fan, just an aircraft fan
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:43 pm

Quoting alyusuph (Reply 25):
There is no doubt the Leviathan A380 is a magnificent technological achievement, but the game changing A350 and the 787 aircraft sales are a testimony that the point to point model designed aircraft (though most of which still operate in the hub to spoke basis) are holding the fort.

Well - sure. I doubt anyone here would argue, but what does that have to do with it?

The market for VLA quads is quite small these days - look at the 748i - but that doesn't detract from the achievement. The market for the Concorde was even smaller - LOL - and although it was a financial dog it remains my greatest flying experience as a passenger, by a considerable measure - I saw the curve of the earth.

And I'm not sure how the twins are testimony to point to point flying when most of them still operate as hub and spoke. Then again, Emirates does operate the A380 - profitably - on comparatively short hops across the Tasman.

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 22):
AKL in little old New Zealand had 4 x EK A380's on its apron recently.

  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
lancelot07
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:22 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:09 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
but that doesn't detract from the achievement.

What achievement, really ? The A380 is more of the same. Technology that has existed before, adapted to a dinosaur. The final stage of an evolution.
The Concorde was a new frontier and a revolution. It would be exciting even today.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:15 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 27):
What achievement, really ? The A380 is more of the same. Technology that has existed before, adapted to a dinosaur.

I'm not so blasé that I am unimpressed by a machine that can put so many pax in the air.

It may be the final stage of an evolution - or may not, I can't predict the future - but I'd rather live in a world with the A380 than without it.

Although I would have thought the 748i was the "final stage of an evolution" but each to their own - always.

mariner

[Edited 2016-04-13 14:20:01]
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
Matt6461
Posts: 2953
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:36 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:22 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
And I'm not sure how the twins are testimony to point to point flying

"point to point flying" is mainstream media misconception. 787's/A350's will almost always operate from hubs. They'll enable long haul flying from smaller hubs and/or add more spokes to preexisting hubs.

Whether or not it's point-point, hub-(smaller point), or (smaller-hub)-point, the fact remains that market share will be shifting onto routes only serviceable by smaller widebodies.

Take UA's DEN-NRT route, for example. It was only 17% O&D a year after launch. That proportion will grow with traffic stimulation but the route will still be dependent on hubs at each end. http://bit.ly/23G9uQR (see page 15)

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
The market for VLA quads is quite small these days - look at the 748i

That's far from self-evidently true. Perhaps our "VLA quads" are just bad products right now.
In 2005 you could say "the market for 300 seat widebodies is quite small these days"
...because the A345 and 77L weren't selling well.
Obviously, we know that was a problem with the product rather than the market.
Same with A380 and 748i.
Bad planes from airline perspective: poor efficiency for their size.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 29):
That's far from self-evidently true. Perhaps our "VLA quads" are just bad products right now.

Okay, I scratching my head because I don't really understand your point.

I don't regard the A380 (a VLA quad) as a "bad product," nor does Emirates - LOL - so the statement remains. But if you want I'll revise to: "the market for the (presently available) VLA quads is quite small these days."

  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:23 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 12):
So Airbus is probably tied to this zombie for better or worse.

Every so often the poker hand falters. Constructive suggestions for improvements, supported with facts based-neutrality, are not what they seem.
 
User avatar
Matt6461
Posts: 2953
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:36 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:31 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
Okay, I scratching my head because I don't really understand your point.

You appear to be explaining the A380's sales performance as flowing from the "market for quad VLAs." I.e. that the market explains sales, rather than the particular characteristics of the A380.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
I don't regard the A380 (a VLA quad) as a "bad product," nor does Emirates

If "bad product" means "doesn't sell well," then the airline industry as a whole views the A380 as a bad product.

Quoting Planesmart (Reply 31):
.

Ever watchful remain the defenders of the A380.

Look if you want to believe that everything else I've said isn't "what it seems" because I called the A380 a zombie, go right ahead. You're not my target audience in that case. A zombie product is simply one whose production future is tailing off. Applies to the 748, 77W as well.
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3276
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:22 am

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 21):
One thing to mention: A-net needs at least 1 A380 Thread a week for generating traffic.
Having it in one thread only is not enough.
But to discuss the same items over and over: keep both: this thread and a subject specific one each week.

Flyglobal

PS: enjoy each A380 thread.

By far the A380 is the most popular aircraft in Anet, there is no other aircraft with weekly and sometimes biweekly threads of doom! The A380 is the aircraft that gets more mileage in threads... Any news (even cancelations) is good news -depending on who you ask..LOL

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:58 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 32):
If "bad product" means "doesn't sell well," then the airline industry as a whole views the A380 as a bad product.

My participation in this thread with a simple statement about the fancies of the A380:

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
I don't care.

That remains my position. I don't care what you think of the A380, or anyone here does, or the airlines do. I'm not US-centric, I can think of several aircraft that didn't "meet the market" but I don't believe that made them bad product.

Since that's my clearly stated position I don't know why you choose to engage with me, but - once again - each to their own, always.

mariner

[Edited 2016-04-13 21:09:36]
aeternum nauta
 
bps3458
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:25 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:36 am

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 24):
Ditto...... I go out of my way to book a seat on one of these things above all else...
Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
regard the A380 as a magnificent achievement, and it is the only aircraft on which I don't get claustrophobia after about 7 hours. As a passenger, I seek it out.

Couldn't agree more. Had to travel to NZ on Tuesday for a meeting in Wellington. Instead of flying on a boring 737 direct BNE-WLG didn't hesitate one minute to fly via AKL just in order to be on the A380 (EK 434). In J going over and coming back upgraded to F as economy was completely full mainly with passengers going back to BNE.

From a passenger perspective can not think of a nicer air craft to fly. Have yet to try the A350 but that is due in May with AY.

Cheers from Brisbane,

Peter
 
User avatar
Matt6461
Posts: 2953
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:36 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:15 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
My participation in this thread with a simple statement about the fancies of the A380:

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
I don't care.

I'll have more to say below but, as I've said before, why even chime in then?
I'm going to illustrate the point. There's a thread titled, "LATAM's Livery On First 789," about which I really do not care.
LATAM's Livery On First 789 (by LatinPlane Apr 12 2016 in Civil Aviation)

Just to illustrate my point, I'm going to now post: "I don't care." [reply 66 in case it's deleted]

The people in that thread will probably think I'm a jerk. Which they should. Because if I really didn't care why would I post?

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
Since that's my clearly stated position I don't know why you choose to engage with me

...cuz it's not all you say. You also hold forth, e.g., that the "VLA quad" market is small - implying that this alone explains A380 sales. When you're substantively engaged on the assertion, you retreat to not caring. Easy solution to this engagement - don't post.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:36 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 36):
I'll have more to say below but, as I've said before, why even chime in then?

To express my point of view. Why does anyone post?

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 36):
.cuz it's not all you say. You also hold forth, e.g., that the "VLA quad" market is small - implying that this alone explains A380 sales.

I'm implying that at all. I even changed a line to accomodate your "bad product" theory - LOL.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
But if you want I'll revise to: "the market for the (presently available) VLA quads is quite small these days."

But as with Concorde, I don't equate low sales to bad product. I'm a passenger, not a banker or an airline economist.

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 36):
Easy solution to this engagement - don't post.


Like most enthusiasts I like to post about the things I am enthusiastic about, but I seldom do post in A380 threads these days, it gets too tedious, the same arguments that have been raging for years.

I thought - hoped - this thread might be different since it had no specific for posters to hang their hat on. Naive, perhaps, but there you go. I am preternaturally optimistic.

mariner

[Edited 2016-04-13 23:44:24]
aeternum nauta
 
WIederling
Posts: 9292
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:27 am

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 27):
The A380 is more of the same. Technology that has existed before, adapted to a dinosaur. The final stage of an evolution.

All the "more of the same" things on the A380 were ohhed and ahhhed on the 787 which borrowed those things some years later touted there as leading technology, far ahead. ( and Boeing still had to take recourse into an essentially unnecessary 3rd hydraulic system.
Murphy is an optimist
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:44 pm

From the info releases coming out of Airbus and indeed the direction (and statements) from EK, it appears that that any stretch of the aircraft is well and truly on the back burner. The NEO is now not 'just around the corner' (ie using a T7000 or V similar) so I do wonder whether the RR 'Advance' engine is where this will all end up.
Certainly RR appear to be cracking on with this development testing both Carbon fan and casing as well as bench testing the new 2.5 spool core (which is made up of derivative T-Ten and TXWB modules).
They say the engine will be ready for 2020 which matches up well enough for a timing for any 380NEO.

It would however also fit nicely as a potential 'follow on' engine for the 787 and 330NEO, thus presenting itself on 3 aircraft types.

If this is the case I am sure we will hear nothing till this summers bench testing and some flight testing has taken place as proof of concept. So perhaps an announcement 2017/18?
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3276
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:22 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):
Like most enthusiasts I like to post about the things I am enthusiastic about, but I seldom do post in A380 threads these days, it gets too tedious, the same arguments that have been raging for years.

{checkmark]

Quoting parapente (Reply 39):
Like most enthusiasts I like to post about the things I am enthusiastic about, but I seldom do post in A380 threads these days, it gets too tedious, the same arguments that have been raging for years.

Thanks for bringing back the thread on topic.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22947
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:31 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):

Like most enthusiasts I like to post about the things I am enthusiastic about, but I seldom do post in A380 threads these days, it gets too tedious, the same arguments that have been raging for years.

I thought - hoped - this thread might be different since it had no specific for posters to hang their hat on. Naive, perhaps, but there you go. I am preternaturally optimistic.

Enthusiasm and optimism indicate caring -- just sayin'...

You dislike the fact that others have negative things to say about something you do care about but you know you don't have a way to change people's minds on those negative things yet you still feel you have to do something but can't be bothered to defend a controversial stance so you make a post that at least at a surface level won't require a defense but in the end it still does.

Seems to be one for the journals of psychiatry....
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
HALtheAI
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:30 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:56 pm

Quoting parapente (Reply 39):
They say the engine will be ready for 2020 which matches up well enough for a timing for any 380NEO.

Airbus execs have lately been saying that if they choose to go ahead with an A380NEO, EIS will be around 2025.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...evamp-on-emirates-capacity-squeeze
Quote:
Clark is evidently running out of patience after John Leahy, Airbus’s sales chief, said on March 1 that there’s “nothing imminent” about the A380 re-engining plan and that even if the Neo were available, Emirates is “not in a position to go ahead” until the mid-2020s because of a lack of airport space.

Clark said that’s wrong and that the Gulf carrier would be happy to take the aircraft from 2021 if Airbus builds it. The manufacturer said it couldn’t immediately comment.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...onfused-strategy-on-wide-body-jets
 
abba
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:35 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
What amazes me is the negativity that some here have towards the aircraft, as if it is their money at stake.

Its something that can't be understood, only explained.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 17):
I always wonder how it is that EK make it work and work so well yet other airlines which do exactly the same as EK simply fail.

That is quite easy to understand. You either make the 380 work - in particular on the Europe Asia market - or you become one of the many also-runs (like BA, LH, AF, CX etc.)

What EK does is quite remarkable. They basically erodes the market underneath the likes of BA and LH. They - often using the 380 (!!) - serves the secondary airports in Europe. That is places like Birmingham, Copenhagen, Brussels, Amsterdam, Newcastle, Lyon, Munich (and the list could be extended) based on the philosophy that frequency doesn't matter but size!

To give an example: They start out in Cph with the 777. And when that model becomes too small to meet demand - they do not add yet another frequency (which are plenty in Cph) as would the unsuccessful airlines have done. No - they introduces the 380 - in stark contrast to what is conventional wisdom here on A net prescribes. The point is that EK knows that what really matters is not service (frequency) but price - which means: fly the biggest equipment possible as it will give you low CASM. Most other airlines haven't learned that lesson so they add frequency (and looses out in the end!!)

Now, that puts EK in their competitive position: To put is shortly: they serve Germany, The UK, etc while LH BA etc. serves their main hubs. That is: EK takes the traffic between UK and Asia and BA between London and Asia. LH takes the pax between Frankfurt and Asia and EK between Germany and Asia.

Pax from the rest of Germany outside of LH's main hub in Frankfurt (the same in the UK or Scandinavia etc.) have the choice of either needing to drive 6 to 7 hours on a congested highway or take a connecting flight lasting about an hour on the one hand or on the other to accept an offer from EK that will break the 12 hour intercontinental flight up into two about equally long legs on a very comfortable plane (the 780 v. the horror of the 787) at a very attractive price.

EK has a wining strategy. The rest a loosing one!
 
lancelot07
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:22 pm

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:27 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
What amazes me is the negativity that some here have towards the aircraft, as if it is their money at stake.

Some here will have money at stake, owning shares in Airbus, or working for them, directly or indirectly.
Some others -including me- certainly would like to buy some shares in Airbus - but not a continuation of the A380.

Quoting abba (Reply 43):

There is some reason in what you write, but this thread is not about EK. For Airbus, the A380 is not the best use of their capital.
 
User avatar
tavong
Posts: 709
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2001 1:59 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:38 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 43):
EK has a wining strategy. The rest a loosing one!

That´s a very far fetched presumption. EK´s strategy is excellent for EK, that does´t means that LH, BA, or any other competing airline is wrong. EK has their particular context, challenges and ways and they have adapted very well, and has said before and you also explained, it rests quite a lot on big planes like A380 and 77W and they found a nice market opportunity and they have excelled on that one.

On other hand, LH, BA and all "hub" airlines are also very good on their models, since EK´s model won´t work on LHR, FRA, MAD, CDG since they are not DXB. Each airline tries to answer their own challenges in their own way. For some the A380 suites their needs and for some others their need will be better suited with A350s, 777s and 787s.

In short, saying that EK is "the strategy" is a very uninformed conclusion to your other way excellent explanation of EK strategy.

Gus
SKBO
Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot happier.
 
User avatar
tavong
Posts: 709
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2001 1:59 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:48 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 44):
There is some reason in what you write, but this thread is not about EK. For Airbus, the A380 is not the best use of their capital.

But they are pretty good on using those planes, they wouldn't be buying A380s on that numbers if they whereat working. We still don´t know in the future, but at this time, they seem to be pretty good in milking those frames.

Anyway, all these A380 threads are so divisive here in a.net that a.netters need to think a) A380 is an utter failure and no airlines should buy them or b) A380 is the airplane messiah. Maybe the A380 is not the best financial program for Airbus, but they have learned a lot with it, on the airline side, maybe some airlines found that their calculations on LF where way over the top (AF) but some airlines found that it suites a particular set of needs. EK found that they can make these frames to work and they are working. a.net might discuss to death these topics but in real life, the A380 well used can make money, same way that a 777 would do.

Gus
SKBO
Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot happier.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:58 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
You dislike the fact that others have negative things to say about something you do care about but you know you don't have a way to change people's minds on those negative things yet you still feel you have to do something but can't be bothered to defend a controversial stance so you make a post that at least at a surface level won't require a defense but in the end it still does.

Nope.

I don't care if people have negative views, I long ago learned that not everyone will like the things I do - LOL.

The problem is that they voice those same views in every single A380 thread - of which there are many - saying the same things every time.

But I'm a veteran of A.net's A380 Wars, going all the way back to "it'll never get off the ground" and, after all these years, it just gets tedious.

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 44):
Some others -including me- certainly would like to buy some shares in Airbus - but not a continuation of the A380.

But Airbus isn't just the A380, just as Boeing isn't just the 748i.   

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
IslandRob
Posts: 623
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:04 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:10 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 47):
The problem is that they voice those same views in every single A380 thread - of which there are many - saying the same things every time.

Actually, this applies equally to the A380's apologists - they tend to say the same things over and over too. Some members are blind to the A380's many virtues; others are blind to its many flaws. If both sides would try to be more objective -and less emotional- we'd have better discussions. -ir

[Edited 2016-04-14 13:26:56]
If you wrote me off, I'd understand it
'Cause I've been on some other planet
So come pick me up, I've landed
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: A380 News/discussion

Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:32 pm

Quoting IslandRob (Reply 48):
Actually, this applies equally to the A380's apologists.

Sure, it may. That shouldn't be surprising.

mariner

[Edited 2016-04-14 13:47:46]
aeternum nauta

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos