taichen
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Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:11 pm

Well, this is a rather poorly written post about a single guy starting a change.org petition online. It seems he realized that he could be sent to Iran, thus techinically facing death penalty ... http://www.thelocal.fr/20160412/air-...gay-stewards-refuse-to-fly-to-iran

I am gay myself and sort of LGTB activist, so I am all for raising awareness about NOT flying to countries where gay is still illegal. Yet I find this quite senseless. As the article points out, AF is flying to some other 20+ destinations where homosexuality is still a criminal ofence, plus AF flew to many other destinations in the past.

I would like to hear your thoughs on this, particularly but not only from gay crewmembers or travelers. Should AF non heterosexual crew members be allowed to opt out from ANY destination where being gay is illegal ? Should global airlines sucha as AF or BA, IB, LH, KL raise awareness on these issues ? (airlines usually try to stay clear from social issues. What about an article on inflight magazines ?)
 
bjorn14
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:21 pm

First it was AF's FAs not wanting to wear head scarves going to Iran, now this? I believe crew members have to have passports that allow them to unfettered access to all countries that AF serves. It is part of his job.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:27 pm

absolutely absurd.
absolutely nothing will happen to a gay flight attendant on his / her layover in Tehran. Unless he is fornicating in the street. And even then, not guaranteed.
 
b747400erf
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:30 pm

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 2):

absolutely nothing will happen to a gay flight attendant on his / her layover in Tehran. Unless he is fornicating in the street. And even then, not guaranteed.

You have no idea if this is true nor can you guarantee nothing will happen. But since FA's will be given the option to opt out of flying to Iran this petition doesn't matter. Unless that option is only being given to female FA's.
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:35 pm

The option is only being given to female employees. Not to male flight attendants.

Until recently, I worked at an airline based in the region. this airline had LOADS of gay male flight attendants, even though it was based in a country
where homosexuality was illegal. they flew all the time to Tehran and loved their layovers there. Nothing happened to them.

Air France flew to Tehran until 2008 and I never heard of anything happening to gay male flight attendants then. did you?

Lufthansa has continued to fly to Tehran and I never hear of anything happening there.

This is just fearful nonsense.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:38 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 1):
It is part of his job.

I have to agree here...when you applied and, subsequently hired, you essentially made yourself available to working anywhere (destinations), anytime (holidays, weekends, significant days of the year for you, etc.) and per the airline of your employment, under their work rules/contract.

I've been to many places where there are restrictions to a number of things, but I do the job I was hired for, period.
You can't cure stupid
 
hotelmode
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:44 pm

Given AF already fly to several countries where homosexuality could lead to the death penalty why hasn't this come up before?

Nigeria?
Mauritania?

[Edited 2016-04-13 06:47:10]
 
tjh8402
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:40 pm

As a gay traveller, I would personally do everything possible to avoid traveling to or even connecting in countries where being gay is illegal. Aside from the general principles of it (I won't vacation in North Carolina and Mississippi now too), I'm not going to risk imprisonment and worse. I do think this FA has a substantive case to be made. You shouldn't force people to travel (even as employees) to destinations where they risk imprisonment, torture, and death at the hands of the government for just being who they are. That being said, it does seem odd to raise the issue now, when AF has served plenty of other extremely gay unfriendly destinations before (including Tehran).
 
winginit
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:55 pm

I'm mostly ignorant with respect to the scheduling behind all of this from carrier to carrier, but do AF FAs not bid on their routes as opposed to schedulers choosing the routes for them? If the former is the case, could an FA simply not bid on routes to countries that discriminate against homosexuals, women, etc.?
 
Sooner787
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:01 pm

Quoting winginit (Reply 8):
If the former is the case, could an FA simply not bid on routes to countries that discriminate against homosexuals, women, etc.?

If they don't have very high seniority, they could end up on that run whether they bid on it or not.

Something tells me flight crews won't be beating down the door to bid on that run   
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:01 pm

there's no risking anything. As a gay traveler I've lived in some middle east countries and worked there and had no problems. in fact, the country I lived in was the gayest place I've ever lived with the gayest social life I've ever seen.
There's no "torture and death" for just walking around or going to the crew hotel, let alone actually living there. This is overblown and completely out of touch with reality.

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 7):






As a gay traveller, I would personally do everything possible to avoid traveling to or even connecting in countries where being gay is illegal. Aside from the general principles of it (I won't vacation in North Carolina and Mississippi now too), I'm not going to risk imprisonment and worse. I do think this FA has a substantive case to be made. You shouldn't force people to travel (even as employees) to destinations where they risk imprisonment, torture, and death at the hands of the government for just being who they are. That being said, it does seem odd to raise the issue now, when AF has served plenty of other extremely gay unfriendly destinations before (including Tehran).
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:16 pm

This-
why haven't we, then, heard any protests about flying to:
Nigeria, Mauritania, Dubai, Jakarta, etc etc etc.
Ridiculous overblown.

Quoting hotelmode (Reply 6):
hotelmode From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 469 posts, RR: 2

Reply 6, posted s_lt(1460555095, 'l F j Y H:i:s');Wed Apr 13 2016 09:44:55 your local timeWed Apr 13 2016 06:44:55 UTC (2 hours 30 minutes 27 secs ago) and read 930 times:
















Given AF already fly to several countries where homosexuality could lead to the death penalty why hasn't this come up before?

Nigeria?
Mauritania?
 
bennett123
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:34 pm

How would the authorities KNOW an FA Was gay?.
 
b747400erf
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:37 pm

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 4):
Nothing happened to them.
Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 10):
there's no risking anything.

You had the protection of the country you worked in, having a large diplomatic influence over Iran, something France and other western countries do not have. These countries are at the mercy of Iran if they want to do business there, Iran can dictate terms, while Iran is dependent on the UAE and other Gulf States for OPEC stability and financial access to markets. So your guarantees are worth nothing, and no one cares what some random low level employee "thinks" they can "guarantee" because they never had an issue so obviously that means no one else will. I've never been mugged, so therefore mugging is not an issue in any country I have lived in and I can GUARANTEE no mugging will occur.
 
santi319
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:56 pm

LOL, if they only knew.... I would say Middle East layovers can be quite fun for a gay person....
 
b747400erf
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:00 pm

Quoting santi319 (Reply 14):
LOL, if they only knew.... I would say Middle East layovers can be quite fun for a gay person....

Some people have a right not to risk it, or not spend money in a country with such a horrible opinion of them. This is a more legitimate argument than FA's who do not want to be inconvenienced by wearing scarf's over their heads.
 
StrandedAtMKG
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:17 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 9):

If they don't have very high seniority, they could end up on that run whether they bid on it or not.

While this is absolutely true, if you're that low on the seniority list would you be bidding long-haul international trips to begin with? (Okay, maybe Iran because it doesn't strike me as a place that would be all that desirable for senior FA's to be bidding, but the point stands.)

On the other hand, an enlightened country like France with strong labor protections should certainly be sensitive to concerns from an employee not feeling safe flying to a particular country. While I don't think it's necessary to have a blanket policy of "LGBTQ FA's are exempt from bidding trips to Iran, Nigeria, Mauritania, etc...", it's certainly something one should be able to address on an individual basis with their domicile manager.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:22 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 15):
Some people have a right not to risk it, or not spend money in a country with such a horrible opinion of them. This is a more legitimate argument than FA's who do not want to be inconvenienced by wearing scarf's over their heads.

I agree, although I find the FA's scarf reasons legitimate as well. I'm not gay, but if I were.. I sure as hell wouldn't want to fly to Iran.
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:29 pm

Where did I say anything about "guaranteeing" anything?
Look, I've been to Iran and had amazing experiences there, as have several of my friends and colleagues.
Despite the rhetoric, Iranian people are by far and away the most hospitable and gracious hosts I've ever experienced anywhere in the world.
Nobody is demanding you answer questions whether you are gay or not when you go there.
As long as you don't walk down the street wearing a rainbow flag or something like that (hyperbole interntional) then there should be no issue.
It's not like there is a brigade of people just sitting there, ready to pounce on somebody for being gay. That's simply irrational thought and
bears no resemblance to the way things actually are there on the ground.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 13):






Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 4): Nothing happened to them.Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 10):there's no risking anything.
You had the protection of the country you worked in, having a large diplomatic influence over Iran, something France and other western countries do not have. These countries are at the mercy of Iran if they want to do business there, Iran can dictate terms, while Iran is dependent on the UAE and other Gulf States for OPEC stability and financial access to markets. So your guarantees are worth nothing, and no one cares what some random low level employee "thinks" they can "guarantee" because they never had an issue so obviously that means no one else will. I've never been mugged, so therefore mugging is not an issue in any country I have lived in and I can GUARANTEE no mugging will occur.
 
winginit
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:49 pm

Has there been any case of a foreign FA being arrested in Iran or any country with comparable laws regarding homosexuality for their behavior? Ever?

I could maybe understand the case here if there was precedent, but I've never seen something akin to what the AF FA is implying could happen actually happening.
 
tjh8402
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:00 pm

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 18):
Where did I say anything about "guaranteeing" anything?
Look, I've been to Iran and had amazing experiences there, as have several of my friends and colleagues.
Despite the rhetoric, Iranian people are by far and away the most hospitable and gracious hosts I've ever experienced anywhere in the world.
Nobody is demanding you answer questions whether you are gay or not when you go there.
As long as you don't walk down the street wearing a rainbow flag or something like that (hyperbole interntional) then there should be no issue.
It's not like there is a brigade of people just sitting there, ready to pounce on somebody for being gay. That's simply irrational thought and
bears no resemblance to the way things actually are there on the ground.

This is not an indictment of the Iranian people. They are, and can be, some of the warmest most hospitable people out there. All it takes is one bad apple overzealous and ambitious cop who decides he wants to make a name for himself impressing the religious authorities to detain me and search my phone or laptop and I'm in serious trouble. Even if I eventually get released with no charges, it'll take days if not weeks for that to process through, and the frosty relationships between Iran and the west don't make me confident in our (or a European) government's ability to help that process along. Meanwhile, I'm rotting in an Iranian prison being at the their mercy being subjected to god knows what. We have no rights or recourse in that country. No matter how friendly the people may be, they aren't the ones that have the power.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:09 pm

I'm surprised this didn't come up when Putin passed his homophobic legislation. In my opinion, flight attendants on duty are rarely threatened. I will say that I have not had any issues in the Middle East, though I have had problems with homophobic cab drivers before (there's a certain group that thinks being a cabbie is beneath them in the first place and takes out their dissatisfaction on anyone handy). What really is terrible, though, is when they take out the crane and lift you up before the pickup under your feet drives away. They still do that in Iran. I doubt that would happen to most, but the images of it would be enough to terrify anyone. For that reason, gay flight crews should have a right to refuse being rostered to such a place. It's not so much the immediate danger but the abusive fear generated by such acts that they should not have to put up with in their line of duty.
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:10 pm

If there's a verifiable threat that gay flight attendants would be at risk flying to Iran then they should not be assigned to that route.

Yet another online petition would be pointless.
 
winginit
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:11 pm

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 20):
All it takes is one bad apple overzealous and ambitious cop who decides he wants to make a name for himself impressing the religious authorities to detain me and search my phone or laptop and I'm in serious trouble. Even if I eventually get released with no charges, it'll take days if not weeks for that to process through, and the frosty relationships between Iran and the west don't make me confident in our (or a European) government's ability to help that process along. Meanwhile, I'm rotting in an Iranian prison being at the their mercy being subjected to god knows what. We have no rights or recourse in that country. No matter how friendly the people may be, they aren't the ones that have the power.

This will be a bit of an extreme example (but so is yours): how is what you've stated any different from a situation that might arise in the United States specifically against someone of Middle Eastern origin?
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:16 pm

http://www.thelocal.fr/20160413/why-...rds-shouldnt-avoid-flights-to-iran

interesting take on this from the head of the AF flight attendants union, who is gay.
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:19 pm

AF flew to Tehran until 2008. They fly now to 20 other countries that have very similar (if not the exact same) laws that Iran has.
Lufthansa flies to Iran and has not stopped flying to Iran.
presumably both have gay flight attendants.
Have there been any stories about flight crew having these situations at all? If so, please point them to me.
Otherwise, I think this is just hysteria.

again, here's what the head of the AF flight attendants union says, who is gay.
http://www.thelocal.fr/20160413/why-...rds-shouldnt-avoid-flights-to-iran

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 20):
Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 18):Where did I say anything about "guaranteeing" anything?
Look, I've been to Iran and had amazing experiences there, as have several of my friends and colleagues.
Despite the rhetoric, Iranian people are by far and away the most hospitable and gracious hosts I've ever experienced anywhere in the world.
Nobody is demanding you answer questions whether you are gay or not when you go there.
As long as you don't walk down the street wearing a rainbow flag or something like that (hyperbole interntional) then there should be no issue.
It's not like there is a brigade of people just sitting there, ready to pounce on somebody for being gay. That's simply irrational thought and
bears no resemblance to the way things actually are there on the ground.
This is not an indictment of the Iranian people. They are, and can be, some of the warmest most hospitable people out there. All it takes is one bad apple overzealous and ambitious cop who decides he wants to make a name for himself impressing the religious authorities to detain me and search my phone or laptop and I'm in serious trouble. Even if I eventually get released with no charges, it'll take days if not weeks for that to process through, and the frosty relationships between Iran and the west don't make me confident in our (or a European) government's ability to help that process along. Meanwhile, I'm rotting in an Iranian prison being at the their mercy being subjected to god knows what. We have no rights or recourse in that country. No matter how friendly the people may be, they aren't the ones that have the power.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:20 pm

Quoting winginit (Reply 23):
This will be a bit of an extreme example (but so is yours): how is what you've stated any different from a situation that might arise in the United States specifically against someone of Middle Eastern origin?

You don't get killed for being Middle Eastern in the US. At least not by the cops.
 
johns624
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:22 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 12):

How would the authorities KNOW an FA Was gay?.

Because he was an FA?  
 
SCQ83
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:27 pm

So no female or gay FAs flying to IKA... that is probably 99% of the FAs at AF?

I can't see then CDG-IKA happening.
 
lewis
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:39 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 21):
What really is terrible, though, is when they take out the crane and lift you up before the pickup under your feet drives away. They still do that in Iran.

Huh?
 
tortugamon
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:09 pm

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 5):
I've been to many places where there are restrictions to a number of things, but I do the job I was hired for, period.

Have you been places for your job that you could be arrested for just being you? I am not sure an employer should be able to force an employee to go to a country where being him/herself would get them arrested.

Quoting winginit (Reply 23):
This will be a bit of an extreme example (but so is yours): how is what you've stated any different from a situation that might arise in the United States specifically against someone of Middle Eastern origin?

Are you suggesting that being gay in Iran is no more/less safe than being of middle eastern origin in the US?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ent-tells-Ivy-League-audience.html

tortugamon
 
tjh8402
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:11 pm

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 25):
AF flew to Tehran until 2008. They fly now to 20 other countries that have very similar (if not the exact same) laws that Iran has.
Lufthansa flies to Iran and has not stopped flying to Iran.
presumably both have gay flight attendants.
Have there been any stories about flight crew having these situations at all? If so, please point them to me.
Otherwise, I think this is just hysteria.

In my OP, while I did say that I personally would not want to go to Iran (or anything place where being gay is illegal) as either a traveler or employee, that I would fear my safety, and I didn't think the FA's request was unreasonable, I did also say this:

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 7):
That being said, it does seem odd to raise the issue now, when AF has served plenty of other extremely gay unfriendly destinations before (including Tehran).

The FA in question has an uphill battle and probably needs to show more reason than just fear to change things from how they have always been done. If French Labor law is anything like US, past practice is gospel.
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:22 pm

gay may be illegal, but unless you are actually walking down the street wearing it on your sleeve, you'll be fine in most places.
The Sultan (ruler) of Oman is gay, everybody knows it, but they have still have the laws there. you'd have no problem visiting the country.
Ditto for the UAE, Singapore, etc. I wouldn't go to Nigeria or Mauritania, but there are other reasons for that. You should take time and learn
about what things are really like in places rather than just go based on stereotypes.

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 31):
Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 25):AF flew to Tehran until 2008. They fly now to 20 other countries that have very similar (if not the exact same) laws that Iran has.
Lufthansa flies to Iran and has not stopped flying to Iran.
presumably both have gay flight attendants.
Have there been any stories about flight crew having these situations at all? If so, please point them to me.
Otherwise, I think this is just hysteria.
In my OP, while I did say that I personally would not want to go to Iran (or anything place where being gay is illegal) as either a traveler or employee, that I would fear my safety, and I didn't think the FA's request was unreasonable, I did also say this:

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 7): That being said, it does seem odd to raise the issue now, when AF has served plenty of other extremely gay unfriendly destinations before (including Tehran).
The FA in question has an uphill battle and probably needs to show more reason than just fear to change things from how they have always been done. If French Labor law is anything like US, past practice is gospel.
 
lewis
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:24 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 30):
Have you been places for your job that you could be arrested for just being you?

Yes I have. There is no place in the Middle East where you can be arrested on the street just for being gay. Lets get this out of the way because there seems to be a misunderstanding about it. Now, if as a gay flight attendant you cannot control yourself on a 1-2 night layover and keep away from Grindr, walking half naked down the street or any such sort of action that may put you in danger then you can blame nobody else than yourself. You can go and ask for trouble in any country you visit. I can fly to Singapore and insist on chewing gum just to prove a point. Getting in trouble for that will be my fault.

As it has been said before, AF flies to many countries that have similar laws in place and there have never been issues. Do your flight, conduct yourself in a proper way and there will be no issues whatsoever.

[Edited 2016-04-13 12:25:03]
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:35 pm

hundred percent yes. I cant stand it when people surrender to hysteria and are unwilling to look beyond the surface of something.

Quoting lewis (Reply 33):
Yes I have. There is no place in the Middle East where you can be arrested on the street just for being gay. Lets get this out of the way because there seems to be a misunderstanding about it. Now, if as a gay flight attendant you cannot control yourself on a 1-2 night layover and keep away from Grindr, walking half naked down the street or any such sort of action that may put you in danger then you can blame nobody else than yourself. You can go and ask for trouble in any country you visit. I can fly to Singapore and insist on chewing gum just to prove a point. Getting in trouble for that will be my fault.

As it has been said before, AF flies to many countries that have similar laws in place and there have never been issues. Do your flight, conduct yourself in a proper way and there will be no issues whatsoever.

     
 
SCQ83
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:38 pm

I think most of the comments are right.

On one side, it is very healthy that women or gay men FA refuse to go to Iran. After all, it is a dictatorship that attacks many basic freedoms. That in my opinion puts some publicity on that, and reminds the average Joe the kind of relations (in this case Air France) enter just to make some money.

On another hand, why Iran? (other than being a new destination). Only a few years ago Air France started codesharing with Saudia and Etihad. What about Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi? Are they any better when coming to gay rights?

Ultimately, from a pragmatic point of view, Iran is not the worst place. Muslim countries (specially being a non-local) are in general very non-confrontational at a personal level. Walking down any flashy mall in Riyadh or Kuwait, and the number of camp guys (sometimes blatantly cruising) is surprising. And nobody is going to attack or detain them. On the other hand, a camp guy walking a "wrong" street in Moscow or increasingly in many other Eastern European cities (not to mention Africa or some places in Latin America), might be attacked and injured, or something even worse.
 
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LatAmFlyer
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:40 pm

I am saddened to read on this thread all the dismissiveness about the social plight of LGBT folks. While I am also not gay, a lot of my friends are and I recognize that being socially stigmatized and physically threatened -- to the point of death -- of them either by a person or by a country is a very real concern and is not to be tossed about lightly. Some of the replies I've read are regrettable and those who've made them (are you one?) haven't come full circle yet in accepting that some people are different and that's the way life is.
 
lewis
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:56 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 35):
That in my opinion puts some publicity on that, and reminds the average Joe the kind of relations (in this case Air France) enter just to make some money.

Yes, as a business, Air France flies to places to make money. There is obviously a demand for Iranians, French and other nationals to fly between IKA and CDG. In other news, the sky is blue.

Quoting LatAmFlyer (Reply 36):

I am saddened to read on this thread all the dismissiveness about the social plight of LGBT folks. While I am also not gay, a lot of my friends are and I recognize that being socially stigmatized and physically threatened -- to the point of death -- of them either by a person or by a country is a very real concern and is not to be tossed about lightly. Some of the replies I've read are regrettable and those who've made them (are you one?) haven't come full circle yet in accepting that some people are different and that's the way life is.

An AF gay flight attendant not wanting to fly to a destination while there is absolutely no danger has nothing to do with social plight. I can say with all confidence that such a premise reaches ridiculous levels, and that comes from a man who has accepted how different he is, if you catch my drift. Some people want to make a fuss just for the sake of making a fuss, it is a thing in the gay community and has been for a while. Doing your job and conducting yourself in a manner that does not put you in trouble WHILE YOU WORK has nothing to do with covering who you are or giving up your social plight or rights.
 
hrc773
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:03 pm

So, everybody has been sharing their opinion on whether or not it is safe for gay male flight attendants to work flight to a country where it is "illegal to be gay". I don't see many opinions on the airline's duty to protect those flight attendants.
I have a slightly different story but much related to this issue. Back when I was working as a F/A, I took a pleasure trip to China with my buddy, when my airline first started flying to mainland China. As we were landing, we filled out our landing cards which included a question about your HIV status. My buddy is HIV positive and he disclosed his status in the landing card, mainly because he had his medicine with him and didn't want to get caught lying. Sure enough, when clearing customs, he gets detained, denied entry and put on the same plane back to the US.
He immediately contacted his supervisor and explained what happened because he wanted to avoid flying into China, as he was now practically deported and didn't want to risk getting arrested if he attempted to enter again. Our airline flat out refused to back him up and he ended having to fly to China when he was on reserve. Luckily (I don't know how) he was allowed in when he worked the flights.
In my opinion, the airline should've done something to protect him.
 
bgm
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:10 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 26):
You don't get killed for being Middle Eastern in the US. At least not by the cops.

Nope, you just get thrown off planes.
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:12 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 30):
Have you been places for your job that you could be arrested for just being you? I am not sure an employer should be able to force an employee to go to a country where being him/herself would get them arrested.

What does "arrested for just being you" mean?

And, yes, I have been to places where homosexuality is against the law and I have "been me" in those places and yet, managed to not be arrested. That argument is moot.

You were hired to be a FA under said work rules, contract and company policy of said airline. If your airline flies to Teheran (or other places where homosexuality is against the law) maybe don't put yourself out there, so to speak and lay low. It's a layover, not a permanent move. You knew well enough what you were getting into when you agreed to be hired. Don't like it, quit.

Use common sense. Seems few of us do.
You can't cure stupid
 
SCQ83
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:17 pm

Quoting hrc773 (Reply 38):

While this is a horrible practice (very common in many countries currently or until recently https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/899/~/i-am-hiv%2B-and-on-medication-and-want-to-travel-to-the-u.s.), I can't see what it has to do with being gay. Most of the people in the world that are HIV+ are not even gay (read Africa).
 
hrc773
Posts: 62
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:29 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 41):
I can't see what it has to do with being gay.

I'm not saying it is; which is why I wrote that this "is a slightly different story". I want to bring the point of view of airlines protecting their employees from anything that could be problematic from visiting countries with backwards laws. BTW, technically, any non-US citizen is still inadmissible to enter the US if they're HIV positive so I'm including the US in the "countries with backwards laws".
 
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mariner
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 24):
interesting take on this from the head of the AF flight attendants union, who is gay.

Sanity prevails.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 35):
I am saddened to read on this thread all the dismissiveness about the social plight of LGBT folks. While I am also not gay, a lot of my friends are and I recognize that being socially stigmatized and physically threatened -- to the point of death -- of them either by a person or by a country is a very real concern and is not to be tossed about lightly.

Queer here.

I've spent a lot of time (and all my formative years) in the Middle East and had a ball - or several. Homosexuality was rampant but it just wasn't talked about in public.

In Baghdad, under Saddam Hussein, there was a park by the river where men could gather to meet. It was protected by the police, not to arrest any of the questing men, but to keep trouble-makers away.

"Being" gay has never been a problem. "Doing" gay could have issues, but not if you're sensible and lock the door.

Do I wish it to be different? Sure, but homosexuality was illegal in New Zealand and Australia when I first went there, and I had a fine life as "out."

mariner

[Edited 2016-04-13 14:08:12]
aeternum nauta
 
winginit
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:44 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 30):
Are you suggesting that being gay in Iran is no more/less safe than being of middle eastern origin in the US?

Not at all. I'm simply saying that one-off anecdotal examples that people are using with respect to foreigners in Iran being discriminated against, imprisoned, etc. for doing nothing outside of normal daily activities seems about as common an incidents in the US relating to minorities being in some cases mistreated while seemingly going about everyday activities. Seems to me that even if you were gay in Iran unless you were running around waiving a rainbow flag you'd be fine - a notion that's being backed by many in this thread and one that mirrors my own experiences in countries where homosexuality is illegal or strongly discriminated against.

I'm open to that point being refuted if anyone could provide an example of someone (a foreigner specifically) who has been imprisoned, etc. simply for 'being gay'.
 
bleudefrance
Posts: 169
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:45 pm

If he does't want to fly to Iran, then he doesn't fly there. He must say that to the AF's board management, as simple as that.
 
enzedder
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:32 pm

RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:46 pm

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 20):
This is not an indictment of the Iranian people. They are, and can be, some of the warmest most hospitable people out there. All it takes is one bad apple overzealous and ambitious cop who decides he wants to make a name for himself impressing the religious authorities to detain me and search my phone or laptop and I'm in serious trouble. Even if I eventually get released with no charges, it'll take days if not weeks for that to process through, and the frosty relationships between Iran and the west don't make me confident in our (or a European) government's ability to help that process along. Meanwhile, I'm rotting in an Iranian prison being at the their mercy being subjected to god knows what. We have no rights or recourse in that country. No matter how friendly the people may be, they aren't the ones that have the power.
Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 26):

You don't get killed for being Middle Eastern in the US. At least not by the cops.

Following your scenatio and logic:
So I can only recommend to all my black friends (and foreign black flight attendants) to avoid the USA. Cops regularly shoot unarmed black people in the streets. At least more often than gay foreigners are taken into prison or get killed in Iran.  

Cheers enzedder
 
hrc773
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:35 pm

RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:49 pm

Quoting enzedder (Reply 46):
Following your scenatio and logic:
So I can only recommend to all my black friends (and foreign black flight attendants) to avoid the USA. Cops regularly shoot unarmed black people in the streets. At least more often than gay foreigners are taken into prison or get killed in Iran.

Ouch. Good point.   
 
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LatAmFlyer
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:48 pm

RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:49 pm

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 40):

What does "arrested for just being you" mean?
Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 40):
You knew well enough what you were getting into when you agreed to be hired. Don't like it, quit.

Wow. That's what I'm talking about. You advocate quitting a job (over opting out of a particular route) if someone is uncomfortable with flying into a bigoted country where a "wrong" incident could result in death by law. And you don't seem to have a problem with a carrier who doesn't feel some sort of responsibility in protecting or accommodating its employees in hostile countries.

I am almost speechless.
 
winginit
Posts: 2581
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:50 pm

Quoting enzedder (Reply 46):
So I can only recommend to all my black friends (and foreign black flight attendants) to avoid the USA. Cops regularly shoot unarmed black people in the streets. At least more often than gay foreigners are taken into prison or get killed in Iran.  

Bingo. This is exactly what I'm saying. If there were mountains of examples where foreigners in Iran had been arrested, acted out against violently, etc. simply for 'being gay' I could maybe understand what the AF FAs are saying, but that doesn't seem to be the case and I personally know plenty of gay FAs for carriers like LH, etc. who routinely go to and from Tehran without incident.

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