Quoting seahawk (Reply 99): How do you know if a person is gay?

If you're in the U.S. ask them about football. idk for other countries my gaydar is parochial.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 99): You do not take your porn collection to Saudi Arabia, you do not take your "Wurst" to the US and you should not go out seeking sexual adventures in many countries.

That's a really superficial opinion. And offensive tbh. You're implying gayness is all about getting laid as soon as you hit the tarmac. Gayness is for many, many people a cultural affiliation as much as being from, e.g., Bavaria or Texas. How do you scrub an identity? Even if you can, should you be expected to?

Also are you leaving your "Wurst" at home because you're not seeking sexual adventures? If so, mine is not so detachable.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 97): I am not sure why I need to care about that. My whole point is that if that person feels reasonably uncomfortable and accommodations can be made rather reasonably; accommdations should be made. These aren't surgeons and rocket scientists. Swap in another FA and lets everyone just calm down.

My whole point is a gay flight attendant is more likely to get in trouble/attacked for being a different skin color or religion than being gay.

How would anyone know the flight attendant is gay? Don't tip off anyone that you're gay then you're fine. Similarly don't tip off anyone you have some Brazzers porn on your laptop or tablet and you're fine. Don't go around with a Torah or Bible praying to God and you should be fine too.

Quoting bourbon (Reply 101): Don't go around with a Torah or Bible praying to God and you should be fine too.

Bad bad bad analogy.

Legally it is fine to be Christian in, e.g., Saudi Arabia or Iran. It is fine to practice Christianity in private settings. In fact probably every white person getting off a flight is presumed to be Christian.

You are correct that proselytizing is forbidden.

However, for your analogy to hold, you would have to believe that:
(1) everyone getting off an AF flight is presumed to be gay
(2) that's fine as long as they don't run around trying to convince others to be gay
(3) no additional danger would flow from confirmation that an individual is, in fact, gay

Nobody believes that any of those 3 conditions holds.

Which shows that the structure of your arguments is just waaaayyyy off.

How long is a typical stopover, after deducting travel to airport, a few hours sleep and heading back to the airport.

The opportunity to get into trouble must be quite limited.

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 102):

The structure of my argument is this:
"Don't tip off you're gay"

There isn't a check box on the immigration card that says "check here for gay" (at least i don't think there is)

I would imagine everyone is presumed "straight" unless they do something that makes someone think otherwise.

How does someone that is straight that gets accused of being gay prove that they are in fact straight? "This is my girlfriend Sarah. See I'm kissing her"?

If you allow a gay individual to opt out for safety you have to allow any other individual to opt out due to safety. Otherwise that itself is discrimination.

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 100): Also are you leaving your "Wurst" at home because you're not seeking sexual adventures? If so, mine is not so detachable.

With "Wurst" I mean do not mean anything sexual related, but simply import of food products that the US has restricted.

And personally I find your idea of a "gaydar" much more insulting than my point of view, that it is impossible to confirm the sexual orientation of a person until the person participates in a sexual act.

And following local laws is a good idea when travelling. In Muslim countries engaging in straight sexual activities is also not the best idea.

Quoting bourbon (Reply 104): How does someone that is straight that gets accused of being gay prove that they are in fact straight? "This is my girlfriend Sarah. See I'm kissing her"?

Kissing (assuming you are a straight male) your girlfriend Sarah in public a place like Saudi would be haram as well!. Not to mention, your GF Sarah would be committing an outrageous moral crime by travelling with an unrelated male.

Religious police does not approve either!

That is why I say that places like Saudi or Iran are "tricky". Pretty much anyone that is not a devoted religious Shariah-compliant is breaking the "moral values" or the local law in a way or another. Being gay is just one of the infinite ways to break it.

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 7): I do think this FA has a substantive case to be made. You shouldn't force people to travel (even as employees) to destinations where they risk imprisonment, torture, and death at the hands of the government for just being who they are. That being said, it does seem odd to raise the issue now, when AF has served plenty of other extremely gay unfriendly destinations before (including Tehran).

That being said, the employee signed a contract that states they agree to operate all routes as required by their employer. Part of your conditions of employment are that you must have an unrestricted passport making you available for global travel at all times.

Quoting bourbon (Reply 104): The structure of my argument is this

Thank you for being logically rigorous.
This is not really an argument structure, however, it's more of a command:

Quoting bourbon (Reply 104): "Don't tip off you're gay"

Two main problems with this "argument":

(1) You're really saying, "Conceal that you're gay." You have so far ignored my points about gay identity being a cultural thing - if you're not going to address them then I think we're done here. But let me rehash: To be gay is, for many but not all, to align oneself with a community and a culture, a way of being in the world. This might include "sterotyically" gay behaviors like calling your male friends, "gurl." Or quoting Britney Spears or whoever is the diva du jour. Or just letting your freak flag fly and behaving in as androgynous, feminine, or whatever way you want. To conceal these things requires a tremendous amount of self-policing. It's humiliating. Imagine if you were Texan, Saudi Arabians hated Texans, and you had to think, "Don't say y'all, dont' say y'all, don't say y'all." Except if you do say 'y'all' they'll think you're Texan and you might be thrown in jail, beaten up, or worse. Saying y'all is second nature but if you slip up you're in deep trouble. Get it? If not I give up.

(2) You're assuming that only getting caught matters. You're ignoring the fact that many LGBT individuals will experience the self-policing described in (1) as inherently demeaning, depressing, dehumanizing. If you don't care about these things then we're also done.

Now to repeat - these concerns absolutely do not apply to Christians in (non-ISIS) Muslim lands, for example. As a white person you will be presumed Christian. There is no need to self-police except not to violate the laws against proselytizing. So that analogy is BS.

[Edited 2016-04-14 01:12:16]

Quoting seahawk (Reply 105): And personally I find your idea of a "gaydar" much more insulting than my point of view, that it is impossible to confirm the sexual orientation of a person until the person participates in a sexual act.

Yeah that was a joke... I'm super-duper gay and love football.

It is very unlikely that a French FA would say "gurl". And it is also very unlikely that Iranian officials would have a check list on "How to check for gay people depending on their country of origin."

Just as for me the best I could guess when a person says "y´all" is that he is American, I could never say that he is from Texas, because I would simply not know that this is typical for a person from there.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 110): Just as for me the best I could guess when a person says "y´all" is that he is American, I could never say that he is from Texas, because I would simply not know that this is typical for a person from there.

You're resisting the hypothetical.

The point is that you can't ask someone to abandon a part of their cultural identity as a condition for having safety or basic dignity.

This is how employment non-discrimination law works. The arguments people are making could apply to the whole field of discimination law: If you, black person, don't like being called a N****r, work somewhere else!

No, that's not the way a civilized society operates. We will interrupt the normal flow of business to protect people right to live with dignity as they define their identities. I can't believe this principle is so hard to gain assent to here.

...now as I said above I don't know about the particular policy for AF and this petitioner - would depend on whether he has objections to other anti-LGBT places because that goes to whether this is a sincere conscience-based objection or whether it's something else.

Personally I very much support this crew member in his plight. Let's get one thing straight (no pun intended), Iran, Saudi Arabia and several African and Caribbean countries are the most hostile places to visit if you are an out gay person. Even if the police turn a blind eye it is a principal thing. I would never want to visit a country where I cannot be myself. I also take issue with Iran and Saudi's disgusting treatment of women because of an interpretation of something written in a made-up piece of fiction. Exactly the same goes for extreme Christian sects (Southern US etc etc).

In Iran homosexuality is punishable by death and Iran routinely enforces this law. In Singapore homosexuality (male on male) is illegal but as a comparison they very rarely enforce this law. It doesn't make it right but makes it easier for me to travel there than to say Iran or Saudi.

While foreign visitors are supposedly protected in Iran (let's not get into all the kidnapping and prisoners taken and flaunted on Iranian TV) I wouldn't want to travel there at all. I'm not particularly obvious or promiscuous but I would be living in fear the entire time I am there.

What confuses me is. ....why single out Iran? There are literally dozens of countries where homosexuality is illegal and these issues have never come up. Female and gay FA's fly to Saudi without issue. ...a country with laws even more draconian than iran's.....but it becomes an issue now for some reason.

I really must hand it to the anti Iran groups. Somehow. ... Saudi is as benign as mothers milk and Iran is evil incarnate. Such drama.

Quoting StrandedAtMKG (Reply 16): if you're that low on the seniority list would you be bidding long-haul international trips to begin with?

Quoting winginit (Reply 8): I'm mostly ignorant with respect to the scheduling behind all of this from carrier to carrier, but do AF FAs not bid on their routes as opposed to schedulers choosing the routes for them?

FA's bidding for their flights based on seniority is a very US air carrier process, most European carriers allocate their FA's randomly across their network based on staff aircraft equipment qualifications.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 106): Being gay is just one of the infinite ways to break it.

Not so, being gay does not break any laws anywhere.

Getting caught in a gay act is the law breaker in these cases, FA's can surely be sensible for 24 hours or so.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 115): I think these gay men need to man up and stop acting like little girls

Yeah bro and they should put pics of hot babes and cars in their profiles. Men should be men and if they aren't then who can blame a little torture, hanging, and rape here and there?

I am not fearing flying to IKA as a gay male. I've been flying to Saudi and Kuwait and many African countries as a 'person non grata' for years and simply put I wouldn't plan the same kind of stuff on a Riyadh layover as I would perhaps plan on a Sao Paulo or Sydney one.

If i'm honest most of the crew I know whom have got into trouble with 'local customs' it's happened in more unexpected places. Like DXB. Places like DXB has the ability to lull you into a false sense of security. You can go to an all you can drink nightclub for 80 bucks and find you make unwise decisions afterwards which can easily lead to arrest as at the end of the day despite it's desire to portray itself as the Benidorm/Bali/Cancun of the middle east it is a strict muslim country.

At least in Iran or Saudi it is what it is. And you know what it is. They aren't shouting 'yeah come here get your bikini out on the beach and then go party the night away in a nightclub where you can drink all you want and schmooze with Ukranian prostitutes'.

I can remember flying to Islamabad. When we went to the hotel bar they had a big dusty thick book that you had to sign your details in declaring that you are an alcoholic lol. I think in Pakistans records 95% of BA crew must be listed as alcoholics!

Quoting WIederling (Reply 118): Looks like a US thing. Politically Iran was and still is Satan incarnate there.

Watch the movie Argo and the first five minutes shows why.



The arguement is bizarre. Crew are travelling on company business and should respect local legislation.

Sodomy is illegal in Malaysia. Should anyone into some rear fun also not travel here on business?

I have never seen so much emotionally fueled hysteria. I think people are watching too many ISIS beheading videos or something, there is so much detachment from reality here. Some of you are so caught up in hypothetical scenarios as opposed to the real world.

As a person that has traveled in and out of Saudi Arabia dozens of times, bags are VERY RARELY searched, let alone computers and phones. That's one I have never seen. Do you think such few people have smart phones and laptops that somehow yours will draw special attention? That you are somehow a suspect and worthy of a search? There seems to be a real lack of understanding and perception. Okay, so you have a photo of your girlfriend or boyfriend on your phone or computer, or a message from someone you aren't married to, or your facebook page is somehow unislamic. Ah hah. This is at the top of your mind for some reason. Do you really think the customs agent or police officer at the airport is that focused on you, personally? You are really not that important to him. You are thinking about your phone, but he is NOT. There maybe hundreds, maybe thousands of people waiting in the customs line. So you are standing there sweating about some picture on your phone or computer. You are NOT personally that important to the guy processing you. You are not that special, worthy of a special search, when there could be thousands waiting for processing in the queue. He doesn't even know if you have anything of any interest of your phone or laptop, even though you do know, he doesn't know. See the difference? Again, you are not that important to the person processing you at Riyadh or Jeddah or Dammam, and probably at IKA also. Some of you are afraid you will be detained for days or hours while your phone and computer are being searched. Again, do you think you are that important? They are doing their jobs, and your life is of no interest to them.

Quoting LatAmFlyer (Reply 36): I am saddened to read on this thread all the dismissiveness about the social plight of LGBT folks. While I am also not gay, a lot of my friends are and I recognize that being socially stigmatized and physically threatened -- to the point of death -- of them either by a person or by a country is a very real concern and is not to be tossed about lightly. Some of the replies I've read are regrettable and those who've made them (are you one?) haven't come full circle yet in accepting that some people are different and that's the way life is.

That's quite heartfelt and you are right, but it's not really relevant to a crew member resting between flights and just keeping to him or herself. I have no idea what your point is. There is no gay machine you have to walk through in an airport. You missed the mark. Your emotions are not going to change policies in other countries. A flight attendant works for a business doing business in other countries no matter what the policies are. Business people have to travel to countries that are unsavory. So what.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 96): Taking it to the extreme (or not), you could be a religious, Christian caucasian captain with five kids and wife from North Carolina happy about the new anti-gay regulations in NC as those protect "family values". A perfect role model for the likes of Ms. Palin. However if that captain travels with his Bible to read at night, while entering Saudi Arabia, "by the book" he could be prosecuted because of religious proselytism (which it is obviously forbidden in a place like Saudi).

Actually, if you have a single Bible, I doubt it's a big deal. It's the spreading of other religions that's a problem. Then just just have a soft copy of the Bible if it still worries you. Done.

Quoting hrc773 (Reply 38): So, everybody has been sharing their opinion on whether or not it is safe for gay male flight attendants to work flight to a country where it is "illegal to be gay". I don't see many opinions on the airline's duty to protect those flight attendants. I have a slightly different story but much related to this issue. Back when I was working as a F/A, I took a pleasure trip to China with my buddy, when my airline first started flying to mainland China. As we were landing, we filled out our landing cards which included a question about your HIV status. My buddy is HIV positive and he disclosed his status in the landing card, mainly because he had his medicine with him and didn't want to get caught lying. Sure enough, when clearing customs, he gets detained, denied entry and put on the same plane back to the US. He immediately contacted his supervisor and explained what happened because he wanted to avoid flying into China, as he was now practically deported and didn't want to risk getting arrested if he attempted to enter again. Our airline flat out refused to back him up and he ended having to fly to China when he was on reserve. Luckily (I don't know how) he was allowed in when he worked the flights. In my opinion, the airline should've done something to protect him.

Wow, checking yes, and admitting HIV on a form when entering a country? I don't see the relevance to the discussion here. There is no "are you gay" question on any immigration form that I know of. That aside, admitting to HIV was really dumb. What did he expect? Was deportation a surprise? Truth isn't always the best policy. Don't admit to that. So he had anti AIDS meds. Probably customs wouldn't know what the pills are for anyway if they had even looked. One time a security guard at the x ray machine wanted to see my medication in my carryon. He looked at it, and it was clear he had no idea what it was or what it was for. I was done in under a minute. But declaring he had AIDS? Wow, not smart. A shocking no brainer.

An airline having a "duty to protect?" What on earth are you talking about? What do you suggest? There is no gay detection machine at the airport, and those that set it off get sent to the firing squad waiting outside. Life isn't like that. People don't really care or are curious about your sexual orientation when you deplane.

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 81): I'm a gay traveler myself and I see a few ways of looking at this. If I were an AF F/A and I were to fly to a country which the government publicly states it criminalizes homosexuality with harsh punishment, I'd become immediately worried. Even if I don't break any laws while I have a layover there, there's still the concern of corruption of some sort. While the people of Iran are known to be more tolerant, the government is known to not be. I'm not saying that F/A's should or should not be allowed to opt out with this argument, but instead the fact that LBGT employees have a right to be concerned (not just in Iran, but any country with similar laws). The "no need to be worried" argument is as stated above by some others who are more familiar with the country: "as long as laws are not specifically broken, you're completely ok." This is the more rational and realistic (external) approach, but does little to calm the (internal) concerns that many of us have. We know in our minds that we have a 99.9% chance of a safe trip, but unfortunately the feeling of danger, rejection, or harm for who we are is a common theme. It's easy for management to make decisions without that same experience, but it's up to the employees who know that experience to raise concerns, and they have a right to do so.

Then don't be a flight attendant if going to other countries is so frightening. Better yet just stay home. Oh, and there is "corruption of some sort??" Did you read what I wrote above? You are not that important to people. They don't care about you and whether you are gay or straight when you deplane. You are not special.
Is it okay if a cabin crew attendant doesn't want to go to Paris or Brussels due to terrorism? Is that okay too? We have proof it's not safe there. Can we opt out just based on feelings?
Whenever there is a thread like this, many of us that live in these countries will tell you what life is like here, but a lot you flatly refuse to listen. We kept telling you that if you come to Saudi Arabia or Iran and you are gay, nothing is going to happen to you. But you don't listen. Everyone else is not obsessed with what your sexuality is. I will repeat this again. No one else is not interested or obsessed with your personal sexuality, and what can be done to you if you happen to be gay. That's in your head. Just like in the customs line. Is the customs guy interested in your phone or laptop? No, of course not. You are not that special out of the thousands he deals with every day. He's just earning a living and feeding his kids like everyone else in life.

Saudi Arabia is loaded with gay people by the way, many of them flamboyantly so. A group of people were having breakfast in the hotel where I was also staying not long ago. I suspected they were cabin crew of an airline, there were some real flamboyant guys in that group, totally over the top. gender ambiguous. They seemed really worried, I am being sarcastic, they are laughing and carrying on with their colleagues. Coincidentally a local blatantly propositioned me in the lobby of this nice hotel, yes in Saudi. Oh and here we are on a.net thinking it's just so dangerous. BS. Some of us have lived and worked in the middle east for years. Now some of you come to this forum, and have never even been here to these countries like Iran or KSA, then lecture us on how it would feel to be here and what it's like. When in reality, it is really, really hard to get in "trouble for being who you are" No matter how hard you argue to the contrary. No matter how much you are told, you refuse to believe. This is not the old East Germany or Soviet Russia where rooms are bugged and people watched for doing illegal things.

Still not clear what the FA is planning which will inform the authorities that he is gay.

Sorry for being so blunt but having worked many trips to Saudi et al if I wanted 'action' it is as easy to get in Riyadh as it is in London. There are certain 'hook up' apps that literally light up like a christmas tree when switched on in RUH or JED. Personally I wouldn't risk it but the opportunity is certainly there. I think the fact that social interaction between unmarried men and women in these countries is virtually impossible that it actually makes male to male 'fun' even more prevalent. Just attend a hotel gym in Saudi where locals are also members and you will see what I mean.

[Edited 2016-04-14 04:55:52]

Seriously, everything else aside - are people here really suggesting that an employer SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED to keep records of en employees sexual orientation? And that an employer should be taking sexual orientation (or religion) into considerationwhen palnning rosters?

That would be serously wrong and illegal in most countries with good reason!

IMO, one 'issue' is if these FA walk around looking furtive, then that WILL attract Police attention.

They will probably think you are a terrorist.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 54): One is sanctioned by the gov't and the Iranian guard and much more common than the other.

Do we know that? Factually? I'm not trying to be confrontational here I just legitimately don't know, and I've yet to see a single example of a foreigner in Iran being arrested simply for being a homosexual.

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 85): Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 80): hiding sexual orientation is trivial. ...which 99% of gay people and decent straight people would reject.

You're saying that if I keep quiet about my sexual orientation and am dressed in airline uniform, there is some way for a hypothetical thought policeman to be certain of said orientation just by observing me?

Or as bennett123 puts it:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 122): Still not clear what the FA is planning which will inform the authorities that he is gay.

..

Quoting seahawk (Reply 99): How do you know if a person is gay? If it would be about being based there, I would agree on it being a problem, but one or two nights in a hotel. There are plenty of countries were you should be able to control yourself for a few days when working in a job that requires travel.

Well put.

There are lots of things that can annoy you on layover. Stereotyping a bit but in the Middle East immigration officials can be frustrating. Do I tell these guys what I think of them? No, I can control myself. Just like I don't tell them that I "lived in sin" with my wife before she was my wife.

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 100): Quoting seahawk (Reply 99): You do not take your porn collection to Saudi Arabia, you do not take your "Wurst" to the US and you should not go out seeking sexual adventures in many countries. That's a really superficial opinion. And offensive tbh. You're implying gayness is all about getting laid as soon as you hit the tarmac. Gayness is for many, many people a cultural affiliation as much as being from, e.g., Bavaria or Texas. How do you scrub an identity? Even if you can, should you be expected to?

Yes, you should be expected to. I'm expected to stay quiet about what I see as outrageous human rights violations when I'm on layover, e.g. forcing women to wear traditional dress and not allowing them to use the gym. It's part of the job.

Staying quiet about sexual orientation is part of the job as well. Don't get me wrong. I think open gayness, or closeted, or polyamory, or whatever, are all fine and if people want to advertise that's fine too. But as an airline employee I'm expected not to make waves about stuff. So I don't. Especially not in countries that crack down on freedom of expression.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 103): How long is a typical stopover, after deducting travel to airport, a few hours sleep and heading back to the airport. The opportunity to get into trouble must be quite limited.

Some of our ME layovers are 36-48 hours. Riyadh is good for detox.  

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 108):

In Iran or Saudi Arabia, a woman cannot do things she does back in France nor can a gay person. I am merely stating that if a gay person says the cannot and will not fly to a country then everyone should be able to do the same. For Air France to tell a straight person that they cannot opt out of a flight because they are NOT gay is discrimination.

Also, How do you opt out? Do you check a box saying "I am gay and will not fly here or there"?

What would stop a straight person from checking the same box? Would there be a gay test to prove that you are gay and emotionally cannot fly to Iran due to possible harm? I am sure there are plenty of individuals that would happily check that box that says they are gay so they wouldn't have to fly to Iran and even more so Jeddah, Riyahd, Kuwait City, Abuja, Port Harcourt, and Lagos. Not for fear of themselves being persecuted for who they are but because those cities could be considered a "shit hole" compared to say Rio or Tokyo.

Quoting bastew (Reply 123): Just attend a hotel gym in Saudi where locals are also members and you will see what I mean.

Now I understand what I saw in the gym of a famous hotel in Riyadh... At the beginning I didn't understood what "was going on" when a local started to talk to me and ask me weird questions. It took me a while to get the full picture.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 127): There are lots of things that can annoy you on layover. Stereotyping a bit but in the Middle East immigration officials can be frustrating.

I have always found ME immigration officers to be extremely uninterested. They usually are more interested in their iPhones than in your passport. The only questions (no joke) I have been asked more than once in ME countries when entering with a Spanish passport is which is my favourite soccer team... but maybe coming back to @Matt6461 comment, they were doing their job and trying to detect uncommon behaviours. 

I am wondering what would happen if there would be a destination in a fun place that had a similar law in effect and the airline would say, that gay crew members can not fly on that route, as the laws of the destination forbid homosexual practices.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 129): Now I understand what I saw in the gym of a famous hotel in Riyadh... At the beginning I didn't understood what "was going on" when a local started to talk to me and ask me weird questions. It took me a while to get the full picture.

  

'Are you staying in the hotel or are you a member?'

'Are you here with your family?'

'We should have some coffee in your room.'

It is the directness that amazes me! A good (gay) friend in Saudi says he and his few gay saudi friends typically only 'hook up' with foreigners as they know the repercussions are minimal. Word is unlikely to get out. Even if the foreigner did blab, his word counts for nil. This would not be the case if a fellow Saudi was to report an allegation. For my Saudi friend it's not the legal aspect that he fears as much as the social one. He basically said 'if my family and friends knew i was gay i might as well be dead'. He basically said his entire family and friends would disown him. Sad. Hence his only real 'outlet' are online apps and gyms.



[Edited 2016-04-14 06:19:48]