tortugamon
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:23 am

Quoting bourbon (Reply 104):
If you allow a gay individual to opt out for safety you have to allow any other individual to opt out due to safety. Otherwise that itself is discrimination.

if its part of a 'protected class' (title 7 in the US) then they should be protected wherever there job takes them. If I am a yankee fans I can't say I don't want to fly to Boston...

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 113):
I really must hand it to the anti Iran groups. Somehow. ... Saudi is as benign as mothers milk and Iran is evil incarnate. Such drama.

Sure but the Saudi's are better with foreigners (though certainly stricter) vs in Iran where American's can be targets. Agreed they both have deplorable human rights.

Quoting jsfr (Reply 121):
Seriously, everything else aside - are people here really suggesting that an employer SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED to keep records of en employees sexual orientation? And that an employer should be taking sexual orientation (or religion) into considerationwhen palnning rosters?

No, but if you want to opt out of the flight then you should state why the reason why. If you don't mind operating the flight then no reason to disclose your orientation.

Quoting winginit (Reply 123):
Do we know that? Factually? I'm not trying to be confrontational here I just legitimately don't know, and I've yet to see a single example of a foreigner in Iran being arrested simply for being a homosexual.

I posted an article above that stated 24 people are currently being held for being gay. Can we expect to get good information in a country without free press?

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 133):
What was the cartoon? And I am sure when that guy made the cartoon he knew he was taking a risk! Again... his own fault!

It was a woman. She made members of parliament look like animals. 12 years in jail

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 133):
First of all, he was dual citizen and Iran doesn't recognize dual citizens, he was Iranian when in Iran! Secondly, he was not doing his job! In Iran we all know he was a criminal and a spy for your American authorities!

Wow. Don't read all of the local media bud.

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 133):
there is a new bill going to pass to allow women in stadiums next year!

How forward thinking of them. Must have been national security that prevented her from going to begin with...

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 133):
The husband didn't forbid her to go, he said that she should stay home with the kids as one of them had their first day of school and he didn't want his wife to miss it!

Just to be clear the woman could be prevented to leave the country if the husband forbids it.

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 133):
If we want to go that way, I can name a lot of crimes against humanity from both Israel and the United States as well!

This isn't crimes against humanity; its basic human and civil rights. Certainly Middle Eastern countries view people's rights differently. My point above has been that when a person employed by a Western Nation has to visit a place like Iran which has very different views on human rights, then concessions to people who have to operate that route should be accommodated if its reasonable.

You can find bad things about every country under the sun. It doesn't mean that some aren't worse. Iran is worse.

Here are bunch of sources:
http://www.socialprogressimperative....table/countries/spi/dim1,dim2,dim3
http://www.humanrightsdata.com/
http://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/FH_FITW_Report_2016 (pdf)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom..._(report)#cite_note-FHFOTPR-2015-1

There are countless of other sources to suggest that the comparison you are making are untenable.

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mariner
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:44 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 88):
Is it the sovereign right of other countries to mutilate female genitalia?

I could write a long essay about FGM, involving not just clitoral circumcision but the full Pharaonic circumcision (in which the clitoris and labia are cut out and the opening is sewn together leaving only a small hole), but it seems wildly off-topic.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 93):
My assumption is this has less to do with being afraid to go to Iran, but to point out the folly of allowing one class of employee to "opt out" and not another.

I never entirely understood why the female f/a's objected to wearing a head scarf, and I was slightly surprised that the airline caved.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 115):
I think these gay men need to man up and stop acting like little girls, if they don't act like queens which many gay flight crew do what is the problem?

I find that post really offensive.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 151):
Having lived in Iran for 3 years, there are some things I learned...
1 - Men have sex with men very frequently. It is the natural result of society's strict segregation of the sexes.
2 - Men having sex with men does not threaten the social order. As long as you're discreet, you can have a good time.
3 - The western notion of homosexuality (meeting a nice guy & settling down) is what's considered a threat to society. Men are expected to marry a woman and raise a family. What happens on the side...well, that's another matter.


  
It's one of the reason why I dislike the use of the word "gay" because it implies a certain life-style, which I, queer, certainly don't live. I've always felt like a bit of an outsider among the gay community.

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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:58 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 55):
Then don't participate in incidents that can be perceived as "wrong" to start. You are there for a VERY short period of time. I think restraint is key.

I am myself all the time and have never had any problem anywhere in the world. Sometimes life pushes you to go to places where you don't want to be, or places where you want to be but need to do thing you don't like, and you should just go with it. The problem with some people who share the same sexual preference as I do, is that they want to break the rules all the time, be out there, and have a folsom street festival in the middle of everywhere. Iran is not the place to do that. I suppose everyone can abstain themselves from some sexual activity for more than 72 hours without dying. In the end, you can always use the crew rest on the way back to make up for the time you lost while on your Tehrani layover; that way a passenger may be invited into the crew rest too!

That being said, I disagree with many of the policies in Iran, but would like to visit regardless.
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:16 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 153):
This isn't crimes against humanity; its basic human and civil rights. Certainly Middle Eastern countries view people's rights differently. My point above has been that when a person employed by a Western Nation has to visit a place like Iran which has very different views on human rights, then concessions to people who have to operate that route should be accommodated if its reasonable.

As if the USA guarantee basic human rights and civil rights to (their) people.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/americas/united-states-of-america/report-united-states-of-america/

Your (US) american human & civil rights do not match mine (and I am Western). Certain middle Eastern countries view on these dont match mine either.

The point after all is if a French gay F/A needs to fear of flying to Iran or not and therefore should be allowed to opt out on doing so.

No argument has convinced me yet that he needs to fear more flying to Iran than any other country that AF flies to. And that includes the USA.

Cheers enzedder
 
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:04 am

I personally thunk crews that do not want to fly to such destinations should be free to switch to the European route network fleet. What I do not see are opt-out options for certain destinations, because if you look at it, if allow women and LGBT people to opt out from certain destination, it means that the rest of the crews will mostly fly there.
 
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:09 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 147):

They're taking a principled stance on moral grounds in support of gay people in Iran who are victimsed and stigmatised by the state, you don't get a bigger bully than your own government. Activism is no slackerism

I could except that stand if they decided to include all destinations they fly to with the same laws, but they aren't, so
I find it pointless.
 
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:18 am

Quoting enzedder (Reply 153):
As if the USA guarantee basic human rights and civil rights to (their) people.

Are you suggesting that someone in iran has similar civil rights to someone in Iran? Come on, lets have a serious conversation..

Quoting enzedder (Reply 153):
No argument has convinced me yet that he needs to fear more flying to Iran than any other country that AF flies to. And that includes the USA.

Well gay rights in the US aren't that much different than in NZ. If you feel like gay rights are similar between NZ and Iran than I can see your perspective even if I disagree;

regardless this is not about the USA nor NZ. Its about what French citizens expect. Its about their rights. And its about what their citizens expect from their working conditions. And its about whether or not it is reasonable that AF can re-accommodate FAs that feel uncomfortable working those flights.

I personally don't think gay people have more fear visiting the US than Iran but I would be interested in hearing you make that case.

Feel free to hate on the US as much as you want, its irrelevant though.


tortugamon

[Edited 2016-04-14 22:31:00]
 
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:38 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 154):
because if you look at it, if allow women and LGBT people to opt out from certain destination, it means that the rest of the crews will mostly fly there.

So if AF actually give in to the demands of gay and female flight attendants who is going to crew the aircraft? How many straight male flight attendants do they have?
 
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:47 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 157):
So if AF actually give in to the demands of gay and female flight attendants who is going to crew the aircraft? How many straight male flight attendants do they have?

Which the opens the next problem. Say they do not have enough and start hiring additional male and straight flight FAs, this would be seen as a discrimination in France, if you offer a job only to straight and male persons.
 
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:06 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 147):

But apparently this gay man wasn't so concerned about the rights of his brethen in the other 20 countries that AF flies to where homosexuality is illegal.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:56 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 151):
It's one of the reason why I dislike the use of the word "gay" because it implies a certain life-style, which I, queer, certainly don't live. I've always felt like a bit of an outsider among the gay community.

Right which is why I have tried to emphasize the identity issues in my posts. Some homosexuals like Mariner don't identify with the gay community and abjuring its practices wouldn't be a huge burden for them. Great! But that's just another reason for why the accommodating regulation wouldn't be that burdensome - many gay/queer/homosexual FA's would fly to Iran and we could protect those whose consciences and dignities would be infringed otherwise. Everybody wins.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 155):
I could except that stand

The word you want is "accept" not "except." Like your conflation of there/their every time you open your fatheaded, mouthbreathing orifice you sound stupider.

But bro - those pics of babes and cars in your profile - SUHWEEETTTT!!!
 
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:18 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 160):
But that's just another reason for why the accommodating regulation wouldn't be that burdensome - many gay/queer/homosexual FA's would fly to Iran and we could protect those whose consciences and dignities would be infringed otherwise. Everybody wins.

except the passangers when they can't find enough flight attendants willing to work that route. I don't accept having one rule for one group then a different one for another, if you don't want to work that route leave.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:19 am

This thread is just silly. The talk should be about every country posing a danger to homosexuals, picking on Iran is hypocritical. Furthermore, if we look at laws in most "western" countries, tolerance regarding homosexuality is new, still being established, with the Christian Churches fighting a bitter retreating action.

The British system installed in its colonies the Victorian laws against homosexuality, that are still making those countries at least unfriendly countries regarding homosexuals and the British had lots of colonies.
The other group fighting homosexuality are the various religions and churches in the group of Abrahamic religions.

I have to agree that a company like an airline collecting information on the sexual practices of their employees would be absurd, so their would be no easy way for an airline to schedule away from destinations "dangerous" for homosexual staff. I further suppose that the danger to airline staff on layovers is minimal and excluding all those "dangerous" countries, would make scheduling staff nearly impossible.

I am all for pushing equality and non discriminatory practices, but I would advise everybody to start at home. I still have to see the country were minorities, including the gay and lesbian communities, do have no disadvantages.
 
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:35 am

This thread is stereotypical in many ways. One thing that has not been brought up is the assumption that the screaming queens in the cabin are the only Air France employees on the plane who might be concerned. There are some "boys" in the cockpit -- translation: AF has gay pilots.
 
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:07 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 150):
I posted an article above that stated 24 people are currently being held for being gay. Can we expect to get good information in a country without free press?

Can we expect good press from western countries regarding Iran as Iran is seen as the "enemy"?

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 150):
It was a woman. She made members of parliament look like animals. 12 years in jail

Even worse, again, her own fault!

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 150):
Wow. Don't read all of the local media bud.

And you don't watch too much FOX news bud.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 150):
How forward thinking of them. Must have been national security that prevented her from going to begin with...

It has nothing to do with national security, but with morality laws which were in place. The prohibition of women entering stadiums are in place since Ahmadinejad and will be removed by the new parliament soon, which is much more moderate.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 150):
Just to be clear the woman could be prevented to leave the country if the husband forbids it.

Just like all muslim countries, yes even in the UAE, Qatar, KSA and etc. but since they are your allies, I don't see republicans complaining about their human rights conditions!

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 150):
This isn't crimes against humanity; its basic human and civil rights. Certainly Middle Eastern countries view people's rights differently.

Iran – CIA overthrows the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in a military coup, after he threatened to nationalize British oil. The CIA replaces him with a dictator, the Shah of Iran, whose secret police, SAVAK, is as brutal as the Gestapo.

Operation MK-ULTRA — Inspired by North Korea’s brainwashing program, the CIA begins experiments on mind control. The most notorious part of this project involves giving LSD and other drugs to American subjects without their knowledge or against their will, causing several to commit suicide. However, the operation involves far more than this. Funded in part by the Rockefeller and Ford foundations, research includes propaganda, brainwashing, public relations, advertising, hypnosis, and other forms of suggestion.

Operation PHEONIX — The CIA helps South Vietnamese agents identify and then murder alleged Viet Cong leaders operating in South Vietnamese villages. According to a 1971 congressional report, this operation killed about 20,000 “Viet Cong.”

Iran — The CIA fails to predict the fall of the Shah of Iran, a longtime CIA puppet, and the rise of Muslim fundamentalists who are furious at the CIA’s backing of SAVAK, the Shah’s bloodthirsty secret police. In revenge, the Muslims take 52 Americans hostage in the U.S. embassy in Tehran.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/a-timeline-of-cia-atrocities/5348804

And I not even mentioned those 20 million people the Americans killed since WW2.

Iran isn't a saint, but don't portray the United States as an angel either!
 
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:25 pm

Should we start a request for transgender crew being allowed to not operate to North Carolina?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:04 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 162):
so their would be no easy way for an airline to schedule away from destinations "dangerous" for homosexual staff.

So because it is hard it isn't worth doing. Interesting thought. I don't see why those that have an issue have to vocalize their reason for their issue as being that difficult personally. If they don't want to out themselves or don't feel uncomfortable then status quo is ok for them.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 162):
I still have to see the country were minorities, including the gay and lesbian communities, do have no disadvantages.

Gotcha, so until we have all of the World's problems under control the World shouldn't take a hard look at the World's worst offenders? How does that make any sense. Anywhere that people are being mistreated because of their faith, heritage or orientation good people should stand up for them. Good people don't turn away because there are issues everywhere. That doesn't make any sense.

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 164):
Can we expect good press from western countries regarding Iran as Iran is seen as the "enemy"?

I think I've used enough NGO sources to convey my point. I notice you have given zero sources for yours.

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 164):
Even worse, again, her own fault!

Interesting that you think that drawing a cartoon should land you in jail for 12 years.

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 164):
It has nothing to do with national security, but with morality laws which were in place

love the term 'morality laws'. Would love to know what morality prevents a woman from watching a volleyball match.

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 164):
Just like all muslim countries, yes even in the UAE, Qatar, KSA and etc. but since they are your allies, I don't see republicans complaining about their human rights conditions!

Not just republicans in the US. It is the Western World that has largely given Saudia a pass. Qatar and Dubai and Kuwait have major human rights abuses, absolutely. Just because these other countries have major issues doesn't mean that Iran doesn't.

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 164):
Iran isn't a saint, but don't portray the United States as an angel either!

Its not about being an angel. And it isn't about the US. We are talking about human rights of a worker in France and how they feel working in a country that makes them scared for their life. French rules protect Gay people's rights. If a French company is operating in a civil-rights-challenged country like Iran and that person feels their safety is questionable then they should bring their issue up to management for this type of debate. Not about the CIA or the Shah, but whether or not a French FA should feel safe in Iran and whether or not his/her role can be easily filled by others that aren't part of this group.

Women can opt out of Air France flights due to head scarfs. I don't think sexual orientation requires different consideration.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/04/news.../iran-france-headscarf-air-france/

Feel free to bash the US though if you want to get that out of your system. But this is about France and Iran.

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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:20 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 166):
Women can opt out of Air France flights due to head scarfs. I don't think sexual orientation requires different consideration.

I'm really confused about that. Can they also opt out of flights to Saudi Arabia?:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor...ht_attendants_in_tehran_isn_t.html

"The Economist reports that the Saudi law requiring headscarves is not enforced for foreign women. Air France still requires them for its employees."

I note that Michelle Obama was photographed in public without any head covering in Saudi Arabia and the same article ends with an interesting comment about the issue:

"If she and other women’s rights advocates are so repelled by the idea of non-Muslim French women being forced to don a headscarf in an Islamic nation, they’d be wise to imagine how Muslim women feel when France forces them to take theirs off. "

Still, I don't equate being queer with wearing a headscarf, and so I'm a bit confused about this thread, too. Is the protest about fear of personal safety by the male f/a's, or is it to make a political point about the Iranian laws regarding homosexuality?

Obviously, I have some sympathy with the former, and I note that some British Midland male/gay f/a's reportedly called in sick rather than fly to Saudi Arabia:

BMI Staff Unhappy Flying The Saudia Arabia Route? (by Gilesdavies Jan 11 2006 in Civil Aviation)

I also have some sympathy with the latter, but I can't work out why Iran is being singled out when there are several countries in old French colonial West Africa, such as Senegal, which have (and enforce) similar laws and to which Air France flies.

mariner

[Edited 2016-04-15 19:23:17]
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:35 am

Here's a question: If people are unhappy about being assigned on flights to Iran, and if the employer insists on it, don't they have a union rep or a worker's council to turn to? Why do they make change.org petitions, or does the union not care about it?
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tortugamon
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:29 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 167):
Still, I don't equate being queer with wearing a headscarf, and so I'm a bit confused about this thread, too. Is the protest about fear of personal safety by the male f/a's, or is it to make a political point about the Iranian laws regarding homosexuality?

I think the issues are similar in that a group of people are facing work conditions abroad that they don't face at home and these conditions are either unsafe or against French law.

Quoting mariner (Reply 167):
Obviously, I have some sympathy with the former, and I note that some British Midland male/gay f/a's reportedly called in sick rather than fly to Saudi Arabia:

BMI Staff Unhappy Flying The Saudia Arabia Route? (by Gilesdavies Jan 11 2006 in Civil Aviation)

I also have some sympathy with the latter, but I can't work out why Iran is being singled out when there are several countries in old French colonial West Africa, such as Senegal, which have (and enforce) similar laws and to which Air France flies.

I agree that the same policy should be extended to Senegal. It could be that this FA saw an opportunity in light of the recent head-scarf 'win' for women allowing them to opt in so he (or this group) sees similar opportunity. It could be that Senegal was being served when he joined and its difficult to protest it when you knew about it and this Iran flight is a 'new' flight so it is more open for protest. I don't know, but then again I am not sure the selectivity of it (Iran) makes his point less valid. I would think AF would investigate and analyze the situation regardless of the timliness or its motivation.

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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:36 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 169):
I think the issues are similar in that a group of people are facing work conditions abroad that they don't face at home and these conditions are either unsafe or against French law.

Sure, but it was ever thus, and why the paradox about Saudi Arabia?

And at what point do you draw the line about differences in foreign cultures, and can a line even be drawn? Singapore has repressive laws against homosexuality and while those laws are "seldom enforced", they exist and could be used.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 169):
I would think AF would investigate and analyze the situation regardless of the timliness or its motivation.

Sure, as they did with the head scarves, but inconsistently applied, and so opened up this mess.

Don't get me wrong - if French unions or any group of French individuals want a war against iniquitous foreign laws, go for it, but at least be consistent.

Because as it stands, it smacks of Islamophobia - unsurprising perhaps in France given all that's happened there - but I don't think it's entirely rational.

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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:15 pm

Sénégal is part of the Françafrique, French people can probably do more illegal things there than in France itself.
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:32 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 171):
Sénégal is part of the Françafrique, French people can probably do more illegal things there than in France itself.

Straight people, maybe, but homosexuality is illegal in Senegal and the law is enforced:

http://www.towleroad.com/2015/12/senegal/

"11 Arrested for ‘Homosexual Acts’ While Attending Gay Wedding in Senegal"

http://www.christiantoday.com/articl...gets.6.month.prison.term/60815.htm

"Senegal journalist convicted of engaging in homosexual acts, gets 6-month prison term"

http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/08/27/senegal-anti-gay-laws

Jailed for Having Condoms, Gay Men in Senegal Live Under Threat

Sengal has also been named as one of the five African countries least tolerant of gay rights:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/top-five-af...-least-tolerant-gay-rights-1432630

"Top Five African Countries Least Tolerant of Gay Rights"

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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:35 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 166):
Feel free to bash the US though if you want to get that out of your system. But this is about France and Iran.

Since we're digressing some; from what I know through first hand experience of the USA and France, and through others' accounts of Iran, I'd rather live in France or the US as a minority group member than Iran, but if I were poor and part of the majority, I'd rather live in Iran.

I do think that Iran is perhaps unfairly singled out when there are 79 nations in the world, many of which AF flies to, that have repressive laws against LGBT (hate that term) people. Iran and KSA are particularly bad offenders but remember that in the U.S. there are still 13 states that have issues with equal rights based on sexuality... Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas, Utah and Virginia - AF flies to some of these too.
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:24 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 173):
in the U.S. there are still 13 states that have issues with equal rights based on sexuality... Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas, Utah and Virginia - AF flies to some of these too.

Are these states hanging gay people?
http://bilerico.lgbtqnation.com/2014...sted_in_lebanon_hanged_in_iran.php

Are they arresting 80 of them that attended a gay birthday party? Where 'Police are said to have used batons to beat those at the party before taking them into custody.'...'When they were coming out of the house followed by the police, their clothes were ripped, their faces and bodies were covered in blood. They were beaten up badly.”'
http://www.ukgaynews.org.uk/Archive/07/May/1404.htm

Or are these states jailing people 'for almost four weeks without access to lawyers and without charge. Police reportedly referred them to a forensic medical examiner to look for “evidence” that they have engaged in homosexual conduct.'
http://web.archive.org/web/200811130...lish/docs/2008/03/28/iran18385.htm

Or are these states resisting the law of the land that states that gay people are allowed to marry and haven't adopted sexual orientation to protected class status under title 7 like most states have?

Lets try to keep some perspective here. And this is the news that we know. There are only 5 countries in the World that have fewer freedoms of the press so who knows what isn't getting reported:
http://index.rsf.org/#!/

And again, I know everyone seems to want to do some USA bashing, so go ahead and get it in, but this conversation is about Air France and Iran.

tortugamon
 
hz747300
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:36 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 174):
And again, I know everyone seems to want to do some USA bashing, so go ahead and get it in, but this conversation is about Air France and Iran.

It is always be the world's greatest sport, because the US does not push back in any meaningful way. It is fun to notice who gets a pass nowadays and who doesn't.

It should not be hard for AF or any airline to rig a scheduling system which is as helpful as possible in keeping people on trips to which they are more comfortable. For gay FAs at AF, I would say, whilst you probably won't run into troubling entering and exiting Iran in uniform and only having a brief layover your point is taken. If it becomes an operational issue, agree that both sides are willing to address it later.

Noting KSA, I think it is a bit different. There is almost zilch nightlife or anything that a non-regular visitor would be familiar enough with to find yourself in trouble. I only went to Iran when I was 2, so I have no practical knowledge, but from the travel shows there is an option to find yourself having fun, or trouble, on a night out. KSA has no such issue, unless you made arrangements ahead of time via a BB on the Dark Web, and I am sure your latex-suited host has learned to be discreet.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:24 pm

If this goes through and gay flight attendants are allowed an opt out for Iran, it will only be a matter of time before they request the same opt outs for other countries which aren't gay friendly. If this is the future and certain minorities are allowed opt outs if you're HR for an airline you're going to stop hiring those minorities. It would be very difficult hiring a gay man over a straight man with the same qualifications, the straight guy can be used over the entire network, the guy guy would have limited use. Smart move.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:56 pm

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 175):
It should not be hard for AF or any airline to rig a scheduling system which is as helpful as possible in keeping people on trips to which they are more comfortable.

IMHO it would be almost impossible. What constitutes "uncomfortable"?

I'm uncomfortable operating patterns which cause massive fatigue. I'm uncomfortable in certain hotels because they frankly aren't up to par and sometimes borderline unsanitary. I'm uncomfortable in the crew bus in certain countries due to the "third world" standard of driving.

Yes, I'm being facetious, but flying while fatigued, unsanitary hotels and terrible traffic are all more likely to kill a crewmember than being gay, flying to a country that prohibits homosexuality, and not telling anyone about it.

Where do you draw the line?

What about ports where female crew are regularly harassed? That crap really sucks for the female crew and I admire their professionalism in the face of behaviour that would make me punch someone (and get arrested).

Life is not always fair. Work certainly isn't fair much of time. Unless the abuses and/or risks suffered are quite egregious, there's something to be said for being professional and accepting that the job has its downsides, including having to hide one's sexual orientation for a day or two.

[Edited 2016-04-17 07:16:49]

[Edited 2016-04-17 07:40:15]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:13 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 177):
Life is not always fair. Work certainly isn't fair much of time. Unless the abuses and/or risks suffered are quite egregious, there's something to be said for being professional and accepting that the job has its downsides, including having to hide one's sexual orientation for a day or two.

Very insensitive comments. The point is, nobody should have to "buck up" if they don't feel comfortable flying to Iran. It might be best to do this anyway; you don't want crew who don't feel comfortable flying somewhere interacting with pax anyway.
 
bennett123
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:33 pm

If many crew are gay, who decides which destinations AF serves, AF or the crew?.

Alternative could be the route as an Iran Air monopoly.
 
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mariner
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:15 pm

The French union representing f/a's does not support the petition:

http://www.newsweek.com/air-france-g...ight-attendants-tehran-iran-448510

"WHY AIR FRANCE’S GAY FLIGHT ATTENDANTS STILL HAVE TO FLY TO TEHRAN—FOR NOW

“The fact for a woman is that we surely know she’s a woman, it’s written on her passport,” says Quattrochi. “When she arrives in Tehran, she will be forced to wear the scarf. For a gay person, nobody knows that he is gay.”

“When one steward is holding the hand of another steward in the streets, it’s his choice,” Quattrochi adds."


Obviously he says a lot more than that in the article, but his position is very rational.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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LTU932
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:44 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 178):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 177):
Life is not always fair. Work certainly isn't fair much of time. Unless the abuses and/or risks suffered are quite egregious, there's something to be said for being professional and accepting that the job has its downsides, including having to hide one's sexual orientation for a day or two.

Very insensitive comments. The point is, nobody should have to "buck up" if they don't feel comfortable flying to Iran. It might be best to do this anyway

That may sound insensitive, but then again, if the contract doesn't restrict the destinations they are assigned to, then that's what their contract says. In my opinion, this isn't something that can be decided for the employees in general neither by the union, nor by the employer, it can only be decided on a case-by-case basis. Some people refuse flights to Iran because of their political or religious believes, some because of their nationality or where they were born, gender and sexual orientation. Where do you draw the line? Objectively speaking, you can't make exceptions for everyone.

Quoting mariner (Reply 180):
The French union representing f/a's does not support the petition:

So the union does care about it, in the sense that this is a non-issue for them, at least for the moment. And also, that the petition is pretty much pointless.

Instead of making a pointless petition, go speak with your union rep and/or the worker's council about it, so you can get the employer on the table to find a solution for this situation. If I was a crew member, I wouldn't like to fly to certain destinations either, but I'd try to search for a solution with my supervisors and/or my union rep before publically crying foul because, after all, I signed a contract that specifically says that I can be assigned to any destination. I don't know what those crew contracts say, but if they have a clause that says they can be assigned to any destination, then this is what they agreed to.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
ozark1
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:06 pm

Heck, i'd be out of luck in America.. couldn't fly to Mississippi, North Carolina, Alabama, Texas and on and on...they don't want us there but it's part of my job to go to those places. Even if they had laws that forbade homosexuality, I would expect to have been fully briefed by the company that this law existed and to act accordingly. I would probably try and trade the trips away, but I simply can't refuse to fly to a country because of their laws. Now, on the other hand, I can refuse to fly with a fellow crewmember who treats the people like they were vermin!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:10 pm

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 133):

Those were convicted of pedophilia, child rape and accused of public sex.

In the U.S. those charges are used towards people who are pedophiles and commit public sex acts. In countries like Iran and Russia pedophilia is a standard charge thrown at gay men having consensual sex with other men. "Protecting children" is the big code word for homophobia in many parts of the world.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 162):
This thread is just silly. The talk should be about every country posing a danger to homosexuals, picking on Iran is hypocritical


Those nooses, though. That doesn't happen in the U.S.

[Edited 2016-04-17 13:13:18]
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Aesma
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:39 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 181):
Instead of making a pointless petition, go speak with your union rep and/or the worker's council about it, so you can get the employer on the table to find a solution for this situation. If I was a crew member, I wouldn't like to fly to certain destinations either, but I'd try to search for a solution with my supervisors and/or my union rep before publically crying foul because, after all, I signed a contract that specifically says that I can be assigned to any destination. I don't know what those crew contracts say, but if they have a clause that says they can be assigned to any destination, then this is what they agreed to.

He probably did that first and since the union doesn't support him, he started the petition.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tortugamon
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:58 pm

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 175):
It is always be the world's greatest sport

Agreed.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 176):
if you're HR for an airline you're going to stop hiring those minorities.

And then you open yourself up to a lawsuit and multi-million in punitive damages in the US.

Quoting mariner (Reply 180):

I thought this was a good line:

'making special assignments based on sexual preferences, skin color or religion “is not acceptable for our union,” he says.

Thought this was interesting as well:
'Last year, 966 people were executed in Iran' ....28 executions in the US despite having 350% more people.

tortugamon
 
bgm
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:08 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 185):
'Last year, 966 people were executed in Iran' ....28 executions in the US despite having 350% more people.

That's still 28 executions too many.
OK boomer.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:12 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 183):
Those nooses, though. That doesn't happen in the U.S.
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 185):
Thought this was interesting as well:
'Last year, 966 people were executed in Iran' ....28 executions in the US despite having 350% more people.

And that figure of 966, I've found another that says over a thousand in 2015. These numbers have jumped considerably since Rouhani took office, the chap who's been feted by the West as the reformer and who's opened the trade doors to Persia.
come visit the south pacific
 
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persiangulf93
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:31 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 183):
In the U.S. those charges are used towards people who are pedophiles and commit public sex acts. In countries like Iran and Russia pedophilia is a standard charge thrown at gay men having consensual sex with other men. "Protecting children" is the big code word for homophobia in many parts of the world.

They were having sex with 12-13 year old boys.

Don't act like you're an Iran expert, because your statement is ridiculous.
 
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persiangulf93
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:34 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 187):
And that figure of 966, I've found another that says over a thousand in 2015. These numbers have jumped considerably since Rouhani took office, the chap who's been feted by the West as the reformer and who's opened the trade doors to Persia. 

90% of those executions were for drug offensives like, drug smuggling, drug dealing and etc.
 
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persiangulf93
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:38 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 178):
Very insensitive comments. The point is, nobody should have to "buck up" if they don't feel comfortable flying to Iran. It might be best to do this anyway; you don't want crew who don't feel comfortable flying somewhere interacting with pax anyway. 

As a gay flight attendant you knew from the first day of applying for the job that the airline flies to more than 20 gay unfriendly destinations. If it's such an issue, why do you apply for the job in first place?

I have ZERO empathy for those dramaqueens.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:51 pm

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 189):
90% of those executions were for drug offensives like, drug smuggling, drug dealing and etc.

Please show me some basis for this assertion as I have links to many articles showing alarmingly different data including...

Quote:
A large number of those executed are from religious minority groups, such as Christian converts, Bahá’í adherents, Sunni Muslims, and Kurds.

Political dissidents have also been targeted by the Iranian regime, often being executed after legal proceedings that international observers have deemed as unfair.

Iran also remains one of the few nations to execute children and minors, as well as women claiming self-defense against rapists and homosexuals.

I have Iranian friends here in New Zealand who are refugees for one reason or another and their stories are commensurate with the above. Iran's problem is not its people but its government, which many thought was getting better.

But in terms of aviation, it is... once these Boeing and Airbus orders are confirmed.
come visit the south pacific
 
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Aesma
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:58 pm

Rouhani has no power over many things, including the judiciary. And deliberately doesn't go there, focusing instead on the economic side of things, waiting for Khamenei to die or be replaced.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:32 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 191):
as well as women claiming self-defense against rapists and homosexuals.

I think that should probably read "...as well as women claiming self-defence against rapists, and homosexuals." Pretty certain women aren't claiming self-defence against homosexuals, let alone being executed for it.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 192):
focusing instead on the economic side of things

Which he appears to be doing very well... with the lifting of the trade embargo proving testament to.

Back to topic, as a human-being, I support any stance against the oppression of a minority group that is not inciting hate or division and, perhaps oddly considering I'm gay, I'm looking forward to visiting Iran in the not too distant future.

Looking back I realise I've visited many countries where being homosexual is illegal, and have often booked into hotels as a double, not share twin, without anything untoward happening.

Perhaps this will not be the case in Iran.
come visit the south pacific
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:44 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 178):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 177):
Life is not always fair. Work certainly isn't fair much of time. Unless the abuses and/or risks suffered are quite egregious, there's something to be said for being professional and accepting that the job has its downsides, including having to hide one's sexual orientation for a day or two.

Very insensitive comments. The point is, nobody should have to "buck up" if they don't feel comfortable flying to Iran. It might be best to do this anyway; you don't want crew who don't feel comfortable flying somewhere interacting with pax anyway.

The world is an insensitive place and growing a thicker skin is an important life skill. Work is full of situations that make people uncomfortable. Work as crew seems particularly so. It's not an environment for people who can't handle a certain level of abuse.

I've been yelled at by simulator instructors in a disrespectful fashion. I sometimes fly with captains who treat me in a haughty and condescending fashion. I'm not very comfortable with that kind of situation. Does this give me the right to opt out of simulator training or flights with staff who yell at me, or is it just something I have to learn to deal with?

Again, if crew who felt uncomfortable flying somewhere were given the right to opt out. half the flights wouldn't be able to operate.

Or as PersianBulf93 so eloquently puts it:

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 190):
As a gay flight attendant you knew from the first day of applying for the job that the airline flies to more than 20 gay unfriendly destinations. If it's such an issue, why do you apply for the job in first place?

I have ZERO empathy for those dramaqueens.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12379
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:12 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 185):
And then you open yourself up to a lawsuit and multi-million in punitive damages in the US.

How do you prove it? Flight attendants are empoyed for a specific purpose, if they can't be rostered onto all routes then they shouldn't be hired there is nothing discriminatory about that.
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:27 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 195):
How do you prove it? Flight attendants are empoyed for a specific purpose, if they can't be rostered onto all routes then they shouldn't be hired there is nothing discriminatory about that.

In the US, not sure about France, you have to show that your qualifications were similar or better than those that were hired - or - you show that the mix of the orientation of those applying is different than those who were hired. Not super easy but the potential damages/punishments are very high so lawyers take their chances.

tortugamon
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12379
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:42 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 196):
Not super easy but the potential damages/punishments are very high so lawyers take their chances

I don't see how you could win, you wouldn't hire a muslim to sell booze because they can't so why would you hire a gay person who would be resricted on the routes they would be willing to fly.

The was a similar issue some time last where where a football club cut one of there players, he became a mormon, his faith precluded him from playing on Sundays, so they cut him, he took the club to court and lost.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5436
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:51 pm

I am amazed to read KiwiRob happy with his white privilege and asking to discriminate any one that does not fit his narrow mold, whether it is because of religion, race, sex, sexual orientation, etc.
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:08 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 197):
The was a similar issue some time last where where a football club cut one of there players, he became a mormon, his faith precluded him from playing on Sundays, so they cut him, he took the club to court and lost

I don't think that is similar at all. Presumably football clubs play on Sunday frequently? Losing 1 player out of 22 once every 7 days is much more impactful then lose one flight attendant out of ~50,000 on one of ~190 routes let alone frequencies....One poses much more harm and is harder to accommodate than the other.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 198):
white privilege

Such terms set back race relations instead of moving forward. Personal attacks because of your perception of his skin color isn't much different than the problem you are rallying against.

tortugamon

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