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LatAmFlyer
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:59 pm

Quoting hrc773 (Reply 47):
So I can only recommend to all my black friends (and foreign black flight attendants) to avoid the USA. Cops regularly shoot unarmed black people in the streets. At least more often than gay foreigners are taken into prison or get killed in Iran.

If any person feels personally threatened for any reason, then of course he or she should be permitted to opt out of a particular route.The onus is on the airline, especially if a carrier is based in a country that respects human rights without conditions.

The same principle would apply, for example, to a Jewish person who might feel threatened if he/she were to fly into a country that's hostile to them. Would you vote against Jews too?
 
lewis
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:59 pm

Quoting LatAmFlyer (Reply 48):
where a "wrong" incident could result in death by law.

"Wrong incidents" that can get you in trouble in Iran (or any similar country):

-Bidding farewell to the customs agent by saying "bye betch/gurl"
-Walking down the streets in Daisy Duke shorts.
-Flirting in public with another man.
-Twerking like crazy in a club.
-Using online apps for hook-ups that may make you vulnerable to entrapment.
-Blow someone at the back alley or in public.

Even so, some of them may still not get you in trouble. I think you fail to realize how hard it is to get in trouble for "being who you are" in Iran or the Middle East in general. If you cannot stay away from such actions on a 1-2 day layover because "this is who you are" then you should definitely be quitting your job and limiting yourself to West Hollywood/Hells Kitchen.

Amazing that there are actual gay members here telling you how much you are splitting hair at this point and you still fail to get it.
 
lewis
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:02 pm

Quoting LatAmFlyer (Reply 50):
The same principle would apply, for example, to a Jewish person who might feel threatened if he/she were to fly into a country that's hostile to them. Would you vote against Jews too?

Being Jewish is different, one can tell just by looking at your last name. Apart from maybe one country (S Arabia) I can see no other place where being Jewish would be a problem - except if maybe wearing religious garments. FYI Iran has a very big Jewish community so being Jewish (and obviously Jewish) in Iran would be no issue.

Quoting LatAmFlyer (Reply 50):
If any person feels personally threatened for any reason, then of course he or she should be permitted to opt out of a particular route.The onus is on the airline, especially if a carrier is based in a country that respects human rights without conditions.

The airline already flies to such countries, some with worst laws. Never had an issue, no issues ever brought up by gay FAs. Even a senior gay FA says there is no issue whatsoever (read the article).
 
rampbro
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:04 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 12):

How would the authorities KNOW an FA Was gay?.

Obviously the Iranian authorities have built a state of the art gaydar, which they have installed at IKA in the Int'l arrivals lounge.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 35):
a camp guy walking a "wrong" street in Moscow or increasingly in many other Eastern European cities

Or some North American cities or towns, for that matter.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:11 pm

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 40):
And, yes, I have been to places where homosexuality is against the law and I have "been me" in those places and yet, managed to not be arrested. That argument is moot.

Right. And I have drank a case of beer an gone cliff diving off 45' gorges...I survived, must be ok. That argument is moot.

Quoting lewis (Reply 33):
There is no place in the Middle East where you can be arrested on the street just for being gay.

Well, its against the law so that isn't exactly accurate, but there are plenty of places where you get held for any number of reasons and if they also find that out then it isn't exactly going to make your state in the Middle East any more pleasant. Removing your facebook page before traveling some places isn't exactly uncommon and for good reason.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 40):
If your airline flies to Teheran (or other places where homosexuality is against the law) maybe don't put yourself out there, so to speak and lay low. It's a layover, not a permanent move. You knew well enough what you were getting into when you agreed to be hired. Don't like it, quit.

Use common sense. Seems few of us do.

Common sense here is that a very large airline has the ability and with reasonable accommodation to allow a worker to not have to work a location that has rules that makes him fear his safety and security. FAs are important but its not like there aren't 10ks of them to replace someone who feels uncomfortable. That is reasonable.

Quoting winginit (Reply 44):
I'm simply saying that one-off anecdotal examples that people are using with respect to foreigners in Iran being discriminated against, imprisoned, etc. for doing nothing outside of normal daily activities seems about as common an incidents in the US relating to minorities being in some cases mistreated while seemingly going about everyday activities.

One is sanctioned by the gov't and the Iranian guard and much more common than the other. Yes bad things happen everywhere...but just because something bad exists in the US doesn't mean that something bad in Iran should be overlooked, gov't sanctioned or not.

tortugamon
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:13 pm

Quoting LatAmFlyer (Reply 48):
over opting out of a particular route

There is that...calling in sick...do what you need to do to not fly there. Again, you know when you are hired where your company flies to, etc. This is 2016. The information age. You made an informed choice and you should abide by said rules. Company and country.

It's much ado about nothing.

Quoting LatAmFlyer (Reply 48):
if someone is uncomfortable with flying into a bigoted country where a "wrong" incident could result in death by law.

Then don't participate in incidents that can be perceived as "wrong" to start. You are there for a VERY short period of time. I think restraint is key.

Like these:

Quoting lewis (Reply 51):
-Bidding farewell to the customs agent by saying "bye betch/gurl"
-Walking down the streets in Daisy Duke shorts.
-Flirting in public with another man.
-Twerking like crazy in a club.
-Using online apps for hook-ups that may make you vulnerable to entrapment.
-Blow someone at the back alley or in public.

Use decorum when visiting.

Quoting LatAmFlyer (Reply 48):
And you don't seem to have a problem with a carrier who doesn't feel some sort of responsibility in protecting or accommodating its employees in hostile countries.

You are in uniform and on duty representing your company and, to an extent, under the flag it flies. Act accordingly, especially in places where laws are more strict. The company will assist, but if you do something that is against local laws, that burden lies with you, not the company. Use common sense.
You can't cure stupid
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:15 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 54):
And I have drank a case of beer an gone cliff diving off 45' gorges...I survived, must be ok

Not exactly common sense.
You can't cure stupid
 
lewis
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:18 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 54):
Well, its against the law so that isn't exactly accurate

It is against the law to participate in homosexual acts. There is no gaydar or any way anyone can accuse you of being gay and arrest you. You must be thinking of ISIS at this point and the videos you see on TV. A flight attendant can abstain from having gay sex during a 1-2 day layover, can he not?

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 54):
Removing your facebook page before traveling some places isn't exactly uncommon and for good reason.

Rubbish, I have never heard of such a thing happening. Nobody you will come in contact with, from the customs or border agents to the policeman that is sitting across the street, will bother to look at your Facebook. Again, it is a layover, not a move and not seeking employment there, where your potential employer may check your facebook.

Fly any ME airline and you will notice that a large percentage of male FAs are gay and not exactly hiding it either. It is a non-issue, except for people who have not traveled to the Middle East and would probably not be able to point Iran on a map.

I have been to the Middle East, as a gay man the only advice I got (even from online "dating apps" - which were kept off at all times) was to avoid meeting strangers and preferably turn off the distance feature, that is all. If someone who is visiting a country because of their JOB cannot keep their willy or other part of their body in their pants then they have bigger issues.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:20 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 57):
If someone who is visiting a country because of their JOB cannot keep their willy or other part of their body in their pants then they have bigger issues.

There is the common sense! Thank you!
You can't cure stupid
 
rbavfan
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:23 pm

Had many friends living & working for airlines & businesses, including teachers, in these countries. They never had a problem & noted there were gay clubs in Dubai. They want the tourist money so they purposefully do not notice.
 
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LatAmFlyer
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:38 pm

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 58):
Quoting lewis (Reply 57):
If someone who is visiting a country because of their JOB cannot keep their willy or other part of their body in their pants then they have bigger issues.

There is the common sense! Thank you!

I'll tell you where the common sense is: Giving the employee the choice of opting out, EWRCabincrew
 
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persiangulf93
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:38 pm

As an Iranian myself I can only laugh at this!

Those gay F/A are just a bunch of dramaqueens. Foreign citizens are protected in Iran, unless they commit a crime against our national security, like spying and etc.

Besides there's a big misconception here about homosexuality in Iran. Being gay is not a crime and won't get you in prison, being a gay activist and promoting LGTB stuff does.

Infact Tehran is full of gays and if you open Grindr in Tehran it's full of guys ready to hook-up with you.

We even have a gay area in Tehran called "haft-hoz"

I'm not saying that Iran is gay friendly, but aslong as you don't shout it everywhere you're good!

Anyways, who cares about Air France coming to Iran or not?!

If they don't, it means more business for Iranian Airlines!
 
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mariner
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:50 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 57):
There is no gaydar or any way anyone can accuse you of being gay and arrest you.

I don't know how any such gaydar could tell. In a number of Middle Eastern countries it is not uncommon to see men walking arm in arm or hand in hand.

These three, for example:



It is not regarded as a sign of homosexuality.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
lewis
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:51 pm

Quoting LatAmFlyer (Reply 60):
I'll tell you where the common sense is: Giving the employee the choice of opting out, EWRCabincrew

That is not how jobs work. I would love to pick and choose the kind of work I do, the projects or clients I work for or the places I have to travel for work. I can definitely choose, by quitting my job if I don't like my assignments. Again, these FAs (this FA actually, as there is apparently only one making a fuss about it) chose to work for Air France, an airline flying to all sorts of destinations worldwide already (and many where homosexuality is punishable by death). If they find themselves uncomfortable with their jobs they can pack and leave. In this case they can site 0 issues with safety as they might be able to do for some African routes.

The same goes for female staff that refused to wear looser pants and a head scarf. All other airlines do it, Air France does it for other destinations, its just another set of uniform. My job is business casual but I am required to wear a full suit at certain clients I may have to work at. It is just part of the job and I accept it.

Interesting that both stories are coming from AF though, although I wouldn't put all of them under the same category, the one and only time I flew AF in Business I did notice I was being served by divas, they did have a toupe about us passengers having to feel privileged to be served by them.
 
lewis
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:53 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 62):
I don't know how any such gaydar could tell. In a number of Middle Eastern countries it is not uncommon to see men walking arm in arm or hand in hand.

Similar to the Mediterranean countries, where men being touchy with each other is considered normal. You should see the looks I get in the US when I kiss (both cheeks) my Spanish friends after not seeing them for a long time.

[Edited 2016-04-13 14:53:29]
 
ORDTLV2414
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:55 pm

How about not doing businesses with countries that put gay people to death?
 
lewis
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:58 pm

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 65):
How about not doing businesses with countries that put gay people to death?

Great idea, you can start with your own country. Write to your congressman and government, tell them to cease diplomatic relations immediately with some of Africa, most of the Middle East - including of course Saudi Arabia.

In the western world, the US is the only one country remaining that has the death penalty, how about the rest start not doing business with the US?
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:18 pm

Quoting LatAmFlyer (Reply 60):
Giving the employee the choice of opting out

As a reserve, sometimes you don't get that option. It's the nature of the beast. It is what it is and that's why you need common sense, because the company isn't always there for you, LatAmFlyer. That is the reality of the job.

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 61):
As an Iranian myself I can only laugh at this!

Those gay F/A are just a bunch of dramaqueens. Foreign citizens are protected in Iran, unless they commit a crime against our national security, like spying and etc.

Besides there's a big misconception here about homosexuality in Iran. Being gay is not a crime and won't get you in prison, being a gay activist and promoting LGTB stuff does.

Infact Tehran is full of gays and if you open Grindr in Tehran it's full of guys ready to hook-up with you.

We even have a gay area in Tehran called "haft-hoz"

I'm not saying that Iran is gay friendly, but aslong as you don't shout it everywhere you're good!

Anyways, who cares about Air France coming to Iran or not?!

If they don't, it means more business for Iranian Airlines!

Thank you, PersianGulf93!!!
You can't cure stupid
 
questions
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:19 pm

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 4):
this airline had LOADS of gay male flight attendant

Was it a ton of fun?!!
 
tortugamon
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:02 am

I believe that it is fairly easy for an airline to reasonably accommodate a FA that feels uncomfortable serving Iran. I don't think it needs a blanket policy for all that identify with this group but just those that chose to opt out. There is enough of an argument and the costs to accommodate the demand are rather low.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 56):
Not exactly common sense.

The argument wasn't about common sense but rather: 'because it happened once and it worked out ok, it must be ok'.

Quoting lewis (Reply 57):
Rubbish, I have never heard of such a thing happening.

Well, there isn't much I can do about that. For women that have facebook pictures with themselves uncovered they tend to be sensitive when going back as well.

Quoting PersianGulf93 (Reply 61):
Those gay F/A are just a bunch of dramaqueens. Foreign citizens are protected in Iran, unless they commit a crime against our national security, like spying and etc.

Right, well here are references to 24 in Iran for being gay:
http://76crimes.com/12-in-prison-for-being-gay-13-more-awaiting-trial/

or they draw a cartoon and get 12 years in prison:
http://cartoonistsrights.org/artist-...-gets-12-year-prison-term-in-iran/

or they are an American journalist and get 'years' for doing his job:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/22/middleeast/iran-jason-rezaian-prison/

or women like Ghoncheh Ghavami a British citizen that attend a volleyball game:
http://www.hrw.org/news/2015/10/28/womens-rights-iran

Or 6-people sentenced to up to 91 lashes and three years in jail for dancing to the song 'Happy'
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29272732

Or God-Forbid the captain of a soccer team wants to play overseas but her husband forbids it - Jail for you!
http://www.rferl.org/content/iran-fe...s-husband-travel-ban/27248135.html

Or the countless other examples that I just don't want to reference with articles. These are not spies. Get a grip.

tortugamon

[Edited 2016-04-13 17:15:17]
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:31 am

Most of us can agree that some countries have barbaric laws and practices on the books. Working to end such practices is praiseworthy.

BUT...Furthering your political beliefs while on the job is unprofessional. You are a representative of your airline even in civvies on a layover (as listed on the General Declaration) and you are there to do a job.

The female crew are not happy to have to wear their full cover garment in some Middle Eastern countries, or not being able to go to the pool or gym, but that's the deal.

I find the whole "system" backwards and offensive, but it is not my place as a professional pilot to comment on it while on a layover.

On a lighter note, I'm not happy about not being able to have an alcoholic beverage in the bar, but there you go...

Quoting LatAmFlyer (Reply 50):
If any person feels personally threatened for any reason, then of course he or she should be permitted to opt out of a particular route.
Quoting LatAmFlyer (Reply 60):
I'll tell you where the common sense is: Giving the employee the choice of opting out,

As Lewis says, "that's not how jobs work". I knew the route structure when I was hired.

And how are crew threatened? Local practices may make you feel uncomfortable, but there's no threat to your person unless you create one by behaving unprofessionally.

Look at it this way: I feel that flights to certain ports entail more threat to safety than others. Maybe ATC is clueless. Maybe there's high terrain. Maybe there's weather. I don't refuse to fly to said ports because of the additional threat level. I study the threats. I brief the threats. I manage the threats.

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 65):
How about not doing businesses with countries that put gay people to death?

In a perfect world, sure. But more importantly that's a management decision. The only choice I have is not to work for the airline.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 55):
It's much ado about nothing.

Quite.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
jacobin777
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:42 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 62):

I don't know how any such gaydar could tell. In a number of Middle Eastern countries it is not uncommon to see men walking arm in arm or hand in hand.

They do it in Pakistan as well - at least in Karachi.
"Up the Irons!"
 
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vatveng
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:43 am

I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet...

The FA in question may have a homophobic family member, who is also uninformed about the world around them and believes every Facebook post about Iran (and the Middle East in general), who has managed to get inside his head and convince him that there will be a firing squad waiting for him in the jetway as soon as they land in Tehran.
 
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Matt6461
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:55 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 70):
Furthering your political beliefs while on the job is unprofessional.

Counterfactual:
African-American flight attendants don't want to fly to apartheid South Africa.
These FA's will have to stay in a different, blacks-only hotel if they go. They consider this an affront to their dignity and won't put up with it.
You're the CEO of Delta. Do you make them fly and fire them if they don't?

Whether or not my counterfactual can be differentiated based on the severity of the first-order restriction, I'd expect it blows apart your simplistic statement that any objection to being treated like a lesser human being is off-limits if you're getting a paycheck.

So you'll need a new principle - unless you actually would make your employees suffer apartheid.

Where you go wrong is to assume that "political beliefs" are all about change-oriented activism.
Not true.
Very often "political beliefs" are the expression of a minority who will not put up with being treated as "less than."
An individual holding such beliefs can take a "political stance" either to effect change or to simply uphold a code of personal dignity and honor that is fundamental to their conception of self.
I don't even agree with your hostility to "change-oriented" political action, but we don't have to reach that issue to show that your statement is incompatible with workplace rules that respect the dignity of employees.

EDIT - in anticipation of and response to "big deal" points.

I am gay. I would love to travel to Iran tomorrow. I've traveled to many places that don't like gays, including neighborhoods in my own city, meetings with homophobic clients, certain family gatherings.

That I am capable of making that choice doesn't mean I or anyone else should make that choice for anyone else.
The compromises and accommodations of conscience/identity are a private matter; employment and constitutional law rightly leave these decisions to individuals unless there's some massive necessity to impose decisions on them. There is no such need here. I'd expect that most gay FA's will be fine travelling to Iran; I'd expect that even if they weren't AF has enough straight FA's to deal with it.

[Edited 2016-04-13 18:12:00]
 
AVFCdownunder
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:05 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 52):
FYI Iran has a very big Jewish community so being Jewish (and obviously Jewish) in Iran would be no issue.

That's interesting, I didn't know that.

My thoughts are that this comes down to basic common sense. There are a few things in life you just don't do such as having a few beers in public in Riyadh, making fun of or criticising the King in Bangkok or souveniring some posters in Pyongyang. Waltzing down the main street of Tehran looking like Bruno would also fall into that category.

Fortunately 99% of the population are able to regulate their behaviour in a rational manner, and therefore it does not create a problem for them.
 
pa747sp
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:10 am

Which is illegal in Iran? Being gay, or have homosexual sexual relations?
Whilst I am gay myself, and I initially have sympathy with the view that someone shouldn't be made to fly to a country with such an appalling treatment of gays (whatever the local social attitudes are, gays are hanged in Iran), I think that distinction in the law is critical.

If the law is such that simply being gay (and how you actually prove that I am not sure in a court of law), then I agree that the airline shouldn't send self-identifying gay crew to that country. If however the law is that it is illegal to have gay sex, then I would have to say that, being a crew member, part of the job is flying to countries where different legal codes exist, and you have to obey the local laws.
Nothing seems as good since the VC10.
 
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Matt6461
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:20 am

Quoting pa747sp (Reply 75):
Being gay, or have homosexual sexual relations?

As a matter of law, it's usually same-sex acts. As a matter of the application of the law, it's tricky. Authorities in countries that ban same-sex acts are frequently hostile to gays and frequently use their power to abuse and blackmail gay people regardless of whether they are actually "caught in the act."

With Iran it gets even more complex because clerical law informs the criminal code (if there is any). Most legal arrests of gay people in places like Saudi Arabia with nebulous legal codes are not for being caught in the act. Rather they're for raids of gay gatherings from which trumped up charges of blasphemy or other unbecoming conduct ensues.

Quoting AVFCdownunder (Reply 74):
Waltzing down the main street of Tehran looking like Bruno would also fall into that category.

What if you actually act like Bruno? I mean identifiably, irrepressibly gay? That's fine, right? Some people express their identities in this way and who are you or anyone else to tell them it's wrong?

I don't know about you but I've met a few FA's where I'm pretty sure I know they're gay before they've said a word.
A person like that would have to constantly police themselves to not be conspicuous, to not feel threatened, vulnerable, demeaned. Do you know what that's like? Would you impose that upon them to save the minor inconvenience of crew rescheduling?

Quoting AVFCdownunder (Reply 74):
Fortunately 99% of the population are able to regulate their behaviour in a rational manner,

I'm glad you're able to determine what is rational behavior and are able to elide the concerns of the 1% you deem irrational for their intrinsic way of living.
 
lewis
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:27 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 69):
For women that have facebook pictures with themselves uncovered they tend to be sensitive when going back as well.

Going back? Are you talking about Iran nationals that take pictures abroad but live in Iran? I don't get what situation you are describing where facebook would be an issue. There is also this little thing that makes your pictures private to non-fb friends.

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 73):
African-American flight attendants don't want to fly to apartheid South Africa.
These FA's will have to stay in a different, blacks-only hotel if they go. They consider this an affront to their dignity and won't put up with it.
You're the CEO of Delta. Do you make them fly and fire them if they don't?

You are comparing apples to elephants at this point. Apartheid was very specific, as specific as segregation in the US was. You are black, you are not entitled to stay with whites and you automatically have fewer rights. As long as nobody invents a gaydar there is no way someone will pick you up from a line at the airport or walking down the street and hang you for being gay in the Middle East.

Quoting pa747sp (Reply 75):
with such an appalling treatment of gays
Quoting pa747sp (Reply 75):
If the law is such that simply being gay (and how you actually prove that I am not sure in a court of law), then I agree that the airline shouldn't send self-identifying gay crew to that country. If however the law is that it is illegal to have gay sex, then I would have to say that, being a crew member, part of the job is flying to countries where different legal codes exist, and you have to obey the local laws.

And how does someone identify someone else who is gay? Listen, there is nothing anyone can do to pick you up from a group of people, accuse you of being gay and have you deal with the consequences of the law there. You are there on a layover, conduct yourself with respect to the law, (AS IN: don't have freaking gay sex) and you will be fine. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

And as others have said, the ME countries have expats who are gay that live there with few to no issues. Tehran has a pretty vibrant gay community, although in the down low. There is nothing that could bring a foreign crew member to trouble. At all.
 
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mariner
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:41 am

Quoting pa747sp (Reply 75):
Which is illegal in Iran? Being gay, or have homosexual sexual relations?

The latter. There is no real concept of just "being gay" - the proof of it is the homosexual act.

People lie and dissemble about it - I did when I grew up in less enlightened times and places - the dangers of it in a society with such laws are innately understood.

It has never stopped me going to places where the penalties for it can be extreme and in the Middle East I have never encountered any problems for being gay - or even having queer sex - and have met some terrific (gay) people, of whom there are many. I have been willingly seduced at truck stops in the desert - LOL.

I was once held and questioned at Baghdad airport for eight hours - not because of anything gay but because I had put "writer" on my entry form. Foreign writers were all seen as journalists in those days and foreign journalists were out of favour.

mariner
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Matt6461
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:47 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 77):
Apartheid was very specific, as specific as segregation in the US was. You are black, you are not entitled to stay with whites and you automatically have fewer rights. As long as nobody invents a gaydar there is no way someone will pick you up from a line at the airport or walking down the street and hang you for being gay in the Middle East.

You're resisting the hypothetical, the main point of which was to blow up a simplistic "check your politics when you go to work" principle. I'll assume you reject that principle, as you wouldn't apply it to African Americans in apartheid.

Hard to tell then what your new principle is. What work is the "specifity" of discrimination doing here?
I suspect "specificity" is a stand-in for "severity." Gays do, in fact, have "fewer rights" in Iran. Companion travel - often a big perk of being a FA in the first place - would be out of the question.
Your stance is basically:
"Oh come on, keep in your pants, don't be too swishy and you'll be fine. What's the big deal?"
...and I don't think that's a principled stance. It's an intuitive judgment that allows you to tell other people what they should put up with in a work environment.

The "gaydar" remark is a total red herring.
You can't be arrested, typically, simply for being gay anyway.
The only relevant question by my morals is whether an employee would feel threatened and demeaned, and/or would have to take uncomfortable steps to ameliorate these conditions.
For example: cell phones and computers can always be searched at ports of entry. Does a gay employee have to ask his/her partner not to send messages during the stay; do they erase these messages?
Another example: does a gay employee have to monitor what kinds of movies and books he/she brings along on the trip?
If you don't agree with a principle that protects employees from these kinds of unchosen impositions then our disagreement is so deep that this forum isn't the one on which to resolve it.

And again - I'd expect that most gay people, most gay FA's, would choose to fly to Iran. I would. Still not my choice or yours.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:50 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 73):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 70):
Furthering your political beliefs while on the job is unprofessional.

Counterfactual:
African-American flight attendants don't want to fly to apartheid South Africa.
These FA's will have to stay in a different, blacks-only hotel if they go. They consider this an affront to their dignity and won't put up with it.
You're the CEO of Delta. Do you make them fly and fire them if they don't?

Interesting example. For starters, having to stay in a "blacks only" hotel is an order of magnitude more severe discrimination from having to wear certain clothing while in country. Also as Lewis mentions, you can't hide skin colour, but hiding sexual orientation is trivial. Also as Lewis says, Apartheid was very specific.

However my point wasn't is something was fair or moral or right. My point was that as an employee you should go where the job tells you. You should not use work as a platform to further your agenda, no matter how noble that agenda is. As mentioned I think the "system" in some Middle Eastern countries I fly to is barbaric, but while there for work I don't go telling random people that.

If a company sent African-Americans to apartheid South Africa, that would have been a reflection on the company, not on the staff being sent. Certainly the company would score big points by not rostering African-Americans on the flights.

Ultimately, staff have the choice of not working for companies which do not share their political beliefs.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Independence76
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:56 am

I'm a gay traveler myself and I see a few ways of looking at this.

If I were an AF F/A and I were to fly to a country which the government publicly states it criminalizes homosexuality with harsh punishment, I'd become immediately worried. Even if I don't break any laws while I have a layover there, there's still the concern of corruption of some sort. While the people of Iran are known to be more tolerant, the government is known to not be. I'm not saying that F/A's should or should not be allowed to opt out with this argument, but instead the fact that LBGT employees have a right to be concerned (not just in Iran, but any country with similar laws).

The "no need to be worried" argument is as stated above by some others who are more familiar with the country: "as long as laws are not specifically broken, you're completely ok." This is the more rational and realistic (external) approach, but does little to calm the (internal) concerns that many of us have. We know in our minds that we have a 99.9% chance of a safe trip, but unfortunately the feeling of danger, rejection, or harm for who we are is a common theme. It's easy for management to make decisions without that same experience, but it's up to the employees who know that experience to raise concerns, and they have a right to do so.
 
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Matt6461
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:59 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 80):
order of magnitude more severe

Granted. Just trying to elucidate the principle you're using. You can't use the principle alone if there are obvious conditions in which you wouldn't apply it. (sorry this is how lawyers work - also how laws like this are drafted/interpreted)

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 80):
hiding sexual orientation is trivial.

?????????????????

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 80):
However my point wasn't is something was fair or moral or right. My point was that as an employee you should go where the job tells you

You're begging the question of whether public morality - either through employment law or corporate norms - should compel employees to endure conditions they find threatening and/or demeaning when easy alternatives avail.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 80):
You should not use work as a platform to further your agenda

Back to your principle I see. How again is the black employee not "furthering an agenda" by refusing to service apartheid South Africa?
 
tjh8402
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:00 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 76):

As a matter of law, it's usually same-sex acts. As a matter of the application of the law, it's tricky. Authorities in countries that ban same-sex acts are frequently hostile to gays and frequently use their power to abuse and blackmail gay people regardless of whether they are actually "caught in the act."

With Iran it gets even more complex because clerical law informs the criminal code (if there is any). Most legal arrests of gay people in places like Saudi Arabia with nebulous legal codes are not for being caught in the act. Rather they're for raids of gay gatherings from which trumped up charges of blasphemy or other unbecoming conduct ensues.

And this is where things get scary. In a country like Iran where there are strong homophobic feelings (gays are executed there) and religious zealotry combined with a legal system with few protections, you have a system with a high risk of abuse. If I was to be detained for whatever dubious reason they could come up with and had my computer and phone searched, they would quickly determine my sexual orientation (my facebook tells them that). Even if I hadn't committed any actual acts, I'd still get to "enjoy" the hospitality of an Iranian prison until the Airline and my Embassy managed to actually track me down and somehow secure my release, which would undoubtedly take time. Someone asked about a Middle Easterner traveling in the US having a similar fear, and that's just not realistic. If a US Sheriff decided to make a name for himself by rounding up a crew from a Saudia or Royal Jordanian flight, they'd probably be released almost immediately (say within a day). Their Embassy, the airline, and the US Government would be all over that Sheriff in a heartbeat, and he'd probably be facing a federal civil rights investigation.
 
ORDTLV2414
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:03 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 66):
Great idea, you can start with your own country. Write to your congressman and government, tell them to cease diplomatic relations immediately with some of Africa, most of the Middle East - including of course Saudi Arabia.

In the western world, the US is the only one country remaining that has the death penalty, how about the rest start not doing business with the US?

1st of all, your comments are rude and condescending.

2nd. Comparing the United States and countries like Iran is unfair and not valid. The United States is not perfect, not saying it is but hey we did donate billions to IMF to bail out your economy. So next time your at the grocery store send me a thank you card.
 
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Matt6461
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:18 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 80):
Also as Lewis mentions, you can't hide skin colour.

I'd like to push deeper on this idea too.

There is a long tradition in the U.S. of some blacks "passing" as white.
Suppose that a black employee could pass as white - demonstrably has in the past, say, for a social experiment known to the employer.
Would it then be ok for the employer to tell the black employee, "stop complaining. Go to South Africa and pretend you're white?"
...I'm guessing not? But why?

You probably have some sense that most black people, even if passing as white, would feel deeply demeaned and threatened existing in a country where their fellows are treated as inferior and where revelation of their true identity would expose them to ridicule and legal sanction.

If I'm right about that intuition, then what principle distinguishes it from the gay scenario?

I'm guessing you can't articulate a principle and I'm pretty sure nobody could (except for "being gay is wrong so gay people should feel demeaned and threatened?")

In the absence of a principle, you're back to relying on an intuition like:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 80):
hiding sexual orientation is trivial.

...which 99% of gay people and decent straight people would reject.

[Edited 2016-04-13 19:23:16]
 
bourbon
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:44 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 54):
Common sense here is that a very large airline has the ability and with reasonable accommodation to allow a worker to not have to work a location that has rules that makes him fear his safety and security. FAs are important but its not like there aren't 10ks of them to replace someone who feels uncomfortable. That is reasonable.

The flight attendants are afraid for their safety, for their life and well being correct?

On that note, if I were an Air France pilot or flight attendant I should be able to refuse a flight to Port Hartcourt, Abujja, or Lagos since I am a white Christian. As we all know Boko Haram doesn't really like Christian ideologies. It's a lot easier to conceal the fact that one is gay than to conceal the fact that you are white.

I am by no means saying i think it is right to discriminate based on color, sexual preference or religion. I am pretty sure a straight female flight attendant could get in as much trouble for having out of marriage intercourse (and pre marital intercourse) in Iran as a gay individual simply being gay.

I know plenty of gay men and women that if you had just met them one would have no idea what their sexual preference was until they told you.

Aren't the crew hotels pretty fortified in many of these countries? I know I Lagos they are and you are warned not to leave the hotel or immediate surrounding areas (which I think are also other higher end hotels)
 
alyusuph
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:17 am

I also find this to be a bit overblown. Giving an example of Africa, many countries in Africa are anti gay. But we still see many gay tourists and of course FAs and other professionals travelling to Africa and even living there. The most important thing is not to cross the limits and engage in behaviours that will lead to public discomfort according to that society. I personally have worked with so many gays and they left Africa unscathed after so many years of work. They all left unscathed because they knew their limits and respected the cultures and perceptions of the citizens they interacted on day to day basis. gays are in no way more human, or even less human like any others.

If you applied for a job as a FA, remain an FA, and not a Gay Rights Activist, unless that is also on your Job description, then go ahead and turn into one. Also, do not poke on the sovereignty of other nations, what is logical and a right to you may not be in other societies. Respect for diversity can not be a one way affair, it has to be respect and humility by both parties.

[Edited 2016-04-13 20:18:40]
I am not an Airbus or Boeing fan, just an aircraft fan
 
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Matt6461
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:23 am

At this point I'm just jumping in to point out bad ideas from people who appear not to have thought seriously about these issues:

Quoting alyusuph (Reply 87):
do not poke on the sovereignty of other nations, what is logical and a right to you may not be in other societies.

In some African societies it's normal to cut off the clitoris of female children. The UN considers this a human rights violation; many governments have used various financial and trade means to pressure change.

Is it the sovereign right of other countries to mutilate female genitalia? Should, e.g., the U.S. be ashamed of its interference in these sovereign rights?
 
ltbewr
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:06 am

What about FA's who are not GLTBQ but wouldn't want to work the Iran or other ME/Islamic their own political, personal or religious beliefs ? Creating exemptions for GLTBQ's may be just a beginning of a slippery slope making it even more difficult to staff flights to many place AF flies to, including the USA. It would be interesting to see how French labor law would see this.

For some high issue locations like Iran, maybe AF has to offer 'special' pay or allow for bids for the flight to allow someone who feels uncomfortable not have to go. That may be best workaround and some would take a modest extra payment and looking cooperative to their bosses by accepting assignments to Iran or other risk locations.
 
enzedder
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:10 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 88):
In some African societies it's normal to cut off the clitoris of female children. The UN considers this a human rights violation; many governments have used various financial and trade means to pressure change.

Is it the sovereign right of other countries to mutilate female genitalia? Should, e.g., the U.S. be ashamed of its interference in these sovereign rights?

I understand alyusuph was refering to one as an individual rather than one as a nation/government which is a major difference.

If you are a FA and travelling to one of the those african countries you talk about, who will not demonstrate or take action against FGM. You might support your governmnet though trying to take influence on that matter.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:18 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 52):
Being Jewish is different, one can tell just by looking at your last name. Apart from maybe one country (S Arabia) I can see no other place where being Jewish would be a problem - except if maybe wearing religious garments. FYI Iran has a very big Jewish community so being Jewish (and obviously Jewish) in Iran would be no issue.

I can't see the difference. I have travelled myself to Saudi with people with blatantly obvious Jewish family names and no one could care less (at immigration, hotels, etc). Even depending on your origin (i.e. Sephardic) most people would think straight away that you are Lebanese or sth. like that and wouldn't even notice that you are "foreigner" (which contrary to common belief, many Saudis are quite "mixed" - Turkish, Lebanese, Balkanic - and whitish, notably in Jeddah area - due to historical Muslim migrations to Makkah -). So even easier to "blend" than your average caucasian Joe Smith from St. Louis.

At the end of the day no one can prove anything (like being gay). The only "legal" issue is that until recently when visiting Saudi in your immigration form you had to write down your religion (also to control somehow access to Makkah and Madinah). But since religion could be understood also as a thought...

I agree though that probably walking the streets of Riyadh with a yarmulke might not be a good idea   (yet from my own feeling, I would be more scared about people from certain countries that might have never travelled outside the Muslim world - hence they have never seen a kippah - than from most Saudis which at the end of the day are used to travel to New York or London)
 
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Matt6461
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:24 am

Quoting enzedder (Reply 90):
I understand alyusuph was refering to one as an individual rather than one as a nation/government which is a major difference.

He's invoking the principle, "Don't interfere with a sovereign's right to treat humans within its jurisdiction however they want." Or some version thereof.

My counterexample calls his entire principle into question. You're right to point out that there's a difference between an individual and a government objecting, just as there's a difference between between a green person and yellow person objecting, or between a tall person and short person objecting.

Whether there's a difference in the scenarios isn't the point, however. The point is that the principle alyusuph cites is total crap. Certain things - female gential mutilation, killing gay people for example - are just wrong. I don't adhere to the bad philosophy that liberalism entails moral relativism. Invoking sovereignty to defend terrible practices is the exact strategy employed by detestable demagogues like Mugabe and Museveni.
 
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b727fa
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:26 am

For me the biggest issue is isn't that it "hasn't happened" but that if women have a "way" to avoid being a possible target (women in/out of scarf; assumption of gay status) then a LGBT (specifically gay male) would want a similar option to opt out. HOWEVER, I've never feared for my safety as a gay man in places where I am "illegal." My "behavior" is not to rock the local boat and just go with the flow.

My assumption is this has less to do with being afraid to go to Iran, but to point out the folly of allowing one class of employee to "opt out" and not another.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:34 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 79):
The only relevant question by my morals is whether an employee would feel threatened and demeaned, and/or would have to take uncomfortable steps to ameliorate these conditions.
For example: cell phones and computers can always be searched at ports of entry. Does a gay employee have to ask his/her partner not to send messages during the stay; do they erase these messages?
Another example: does a gay employee have to monitor what kinds of movies and books he/she brings along on the trip?

While I agree that Saudi or Iran have abhorrent legislations, I think you are seeing the whole thing from a very Western perspective.

In a place like Saudi Arabia, you can be guaranteed that almost everything done by any FA (no matter their sex, religion, sexual orientation, beliefs, etc.) will collide with the most strict religious forms of thoughts in the country.

So I think what you propose wouldn't really work. Because by the book (or the Sharia law), a (straight) female FA sending WhatsApps to his (unmarried) boyfriend is haram (forbidden). Should she remove all her messages? Or maybe a male captain feels the urge and need to carry a PlayBoy or porn videos or almost any Western movie in his computer which are probably haram for a million different reasons, so he could refuse as well (or should he clean his computer?)

Saudi Arabia or Iran are places in the closet for most people no matter their sexual orientation. Homophobia is only one of the ways in how religious madness flourish. But not the only one. Not trying to say that this is better (which obviously it is not), but it is harder to have a case compared to places like Uganda or Russia where homophobic campaigns are almost a way of life for their governments and population.

Quoting bourbon (Reply 86):
Aren't the crew hotels pretty fortified in many of these countries? I know I Lagos they are and you are warned not to leave the hotel or immediate surrounding areas (which I think are also other higher end hotels)

Middle Eastern countries are in general extremely safe from a personal point of view, other than those unfortunate wars and terrorism. No need to be in a fortification.

[Edited 2016-04-13 22:35:09]
 
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Matt6461
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:58 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 94):
Not trying to say that this is better (which obviously it is not), but it is harder to have a case compared to places like Uganda or Russia where homophobic campaigns are almost a way of life for their governments and population.

Fair points.

Just for the record I'm in favor of female FA's objecting to going to SA/Iran at least as much as gays.
And I'm dubious about the specific motivation behind objecting to Iran but not, e.g., Saudi Arabia (don't know if that's the case).
I'm just batting away what I see as terrible arguments for denying the particular petition - that sovereigns have a right to treat their subjects as they see fit, that hiding sexual orientation is "trivial," that politics is always a matter of agenda-pushing and not a matter of personal conscience and identity... It's these terrible arguments I object to in the thread, not necessarily the particular policy judgment for AF.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 94):
Homophobia is only one of the ways in how religious madness flourish.

Amen. One might hope that the imminent near-total victory of the "gay agenda" in the U.S. will mean we turn to addressing issues like racism and sexism that seem even more intractable globally and domestically.
But gays win because it might turn out that your son/daughter/friend/mom/dad/coworker is gay. If you're hostile to women's or ethnic/religious minorities' rights, it's much easier to ensure that the group never appears in your inner circle and you can keep ignoring their problems.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:09 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 95):
Just for the record I'm in favor of female FA's objecting to going to SA/Iran at least as much as gays.
And I'm dubious about the specific motivation behind objecting to Iran but not, e.g., Saudi Arabia (don't know if that's the case).

Taking it to the extreme (or not), you could be a religious, Christian caucasian captain with five kids and wife from North Carolina happy about the new anti-gay regulations in NC as those protect "family values". A perfect role model for the likes of Ms. Palin. However if that captain travels with his Bible to read at night, while entering Saudi Arabia, "by the book" he could be prosecuted because of religious proselytism (which it is obviously forbidden in a place like Saudi).

(I must admit in a way that would be interesting).
 
tortugamon
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:12 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 52):
Being Jewish is different, one can tell just by looking at your last name. Apart from maybe one country (S Arabia) I can see no other place where being Jewish would be a problem - except if maybe wearing religious garments. FYI Iran has a very big Jewish community so being Jewish (and obviously Jewish) in Iran would be no issue

Do we need to rehash what happens to Jews, Christians and Baha'i in Iran....please tell me you don't think they are able to exercise their faith freely in Iran.

Quoting bourbon (Reply 86):
The flight attendants are afraid for their safety, for their life and well being correct?

On that note, if I were an Air France pilot or flight attendant I should be able to refuse a flight to Port Hartcourt, Abujja, or Lagos since I am a white Christian. As we all know Boko Haram doesn't really like Christian ideologies.

And rightfully you should if those fears are realistic. And when Boko Haram and their policies take over the cities mentioned, their airports, and the overall Gov't of Nigeria where those people can be imprisoned by a sovereign nation based on those principles I bet the airline won't chose to fly there but certainly FAs will protest.

Quoting bourbon (Reply 86):
I know plenty of gay men and women that if you had just met them one would have no idea what their sexual preference was until they told you.

I am not sure why I need to care about that. My whole point is that if that person feels reasonably uncomfortable and accommodations can be made rather reasonably; accommdations should be made. These aren't surgeons and rocket scientists. Swap in another FA and lets everyone just calm down.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 94):
While I agree that Saudi or Iran have abhorrent legislations, I think you are seeing the whole thing from a very Western perspective.

Absolutely, heaven forbid we use another metric for determining appropriate standards for Air France Flight Attendants and what rights they are used to at home to determine what rights they should be expecting while executing their jobs abroad. A western perspective makes sense.

tortugamon
 
alyusuph
Posts: 168
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:45 am

Quoting alyusuph (Reply 87):
If you applied for a job as a FA, remain an FA, and not a Gay Rights Activist, unless that is also on your Job description, then go ahead and turn into one. Also, do not poke on the sovereignty of other nations, what is logical and a right to you may not be in other societies. Respect for diversity can not be a one way affair, it has to be respect and humility by both parties.

It is obvious an FA travelling to any other country in the world will be better off not to engage in matters which question the sovereignty of any nation. The best for them is to focus on their job and if they find any human rights related issues then they should document, report, collaborate, and leave those matters to be dealt with the relevant professionals and authorities.
I am not an Airbus or Boeing fan, just an aircraft fan
 
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seahawk
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RE: Air France Gay FAs Not Willing To Fly To Iran?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:02 am

How do you know if a person is gay?

If it would be about being based there, I would agree on it being a problem, but one or two nights in a hotel. There are plenty of countries were you should be able to control yourself for a few days when working in a job that requires travel.

You do not take your porn collection to Saudi Arabia, you do not take your "Wurst" to the US and you should not go out seeking sexual adventures in many countries.

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