N415XJ
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Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:06 pm

I know that, until recently, Americans were very opposed to foreign-made cars. My father recalls many times when he had people curse at him or throw things for driving a Volvo as recently as the late 80s. Did this xenophobia/protectionism extend to aircraft in the 1960s when United started using Caravelles? I think I recall reading that Eastern faced some deal of criticism when they first bought the A300 (I could be wrong though).
 
mmo
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:34 pm

Quoting N415XJ (Thread starter):
Did this xenophobia/protectionism extend to aircraft in the 1960s when United started using Caravelles?

There was very little criticism at all when the order was placed. Mohawk, later to become part of Allegheny, ordered BAC-111s and there was very little uproar. Both aircraft were short range aircraft and to be honest, there was nothing the US had to offer, at the time, which would been a similar product.
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ArmitageShanks
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:16 pm

Here's a phone call JFK made complaining about PanAm going with the Concorde instead of supporting the American made version.

http://youtu.be/EuaZ0SkVf-Q
 
UA444
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:26 pm

Public knowledge in terms of aircraft isn't really that common. It would be especially harder to keep track of this during that period for the average joe with no internet, social media.

Government officials might have poo poo'd, but they're ultimately powerless.
 
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seat55a
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:49 pm

AA also had BAC 1-11s. And Mohawk had FH-227s which while US built were foreign designed, Fokker F-27s.

I suspect that the cool factor of jets or even turboprops would have far outweighed the country of origin in the public mind. You can see that in the publicity from the time. I personally thought that foreign origin increased the cool factor, but I was just a kid.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:33 pm

Not to mention Trans-Canada Air Lines and Capital Airlines changed the landscape of customer expectations when they introduced turbine powered aircraft to North America in 1955 ... with a foreign aircraft. I recall reading about the "Viscount Effect" TCA had when competing with AA to NYC. Market share tripled with the introduction of the Viscount.

5 years later, I can't imagine it would be much different with the introduction of the Caravelle. Jets were exotic and mysterious. I am old enough to remember when it was a huge marketing advantage to have "Jet" beside a flight you are trying to sell!

The first time I ever noticed any aversion to a "foreign" aircraft was the introduction, then success of the A300, by some unknown aircraft manufacturer named Airbus. I even remember the editorial in Aviation Week about the dangers of a 360,000 lbs aircraft being powered by only two engines ... (gasp). That is ... until Boeing announced the B767.
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citationjet
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:57 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 3):
Public knowledge in terms of aircraft isn't really that common. It would be especially harder to keep track of this during that period for the average joe with no internet, social media.

I agree. Most people today when flying on an RJ don't know if it was made in Canada or Brazil.
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deltal1011man
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:16 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 3):

even today most people don't have a clue.

the 747 is well known. Every one knows it.
Other than that it is very hit or miss with the average Joe.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:40 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 7):
even today most people don't have a clue.
the 747 is well known. Every one knows it.
Other than that it is very hit or miss with the average Joe.

That's quite true. Very recently, a friend of the family swore she had just ridden on a WN 787.

Yes, really.
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CARST
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:13 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 7):

the 747 is well known. Every one knows it.

You must be joking... go to a high-school of your choice and ask a girl of your choice...
 
apfpilot
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:20 pm

Quoting citationjet (Reply 6):
I agree. Most people today when flying on an RJ don't know if it was made in Canada or Brazil.

I have a few quirks I always do when I'm flying in back and one of them includes locating the assembly statement on the safety card.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:54 am

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 8):
Quoting CARST (Reply 9):

I asked a girl I worked with to tell me what a plane was out on the ramp.

She yells out AK47.

It was a 757...
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aviatorcraig
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:04 pm

Isn't it strange that people are so concerned with where their plane was made.

Whether the manufacturer is headquartered in Chicago, Montreal, São Paulo or Toulouse makes no difference, the plane is full of parts and equipment from somewhere else - civil aviation is truly a global industry.
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Viscount724
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:39 am

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 12):
Isn't it strange that people are so concerned with where their plane was made.

Whether the manufacturer is headquartered in Chicago, Montreal, São Paulo or Toulouse makes no difference, the plane is full of parts and equipment from somewhere else - civil aviation is truly a global industry.

Same as the car industry. How many people are aware or care that their car bearing a US brand name may have been built in Canada or Mexico, or one with a Japanese or Korean brand may have been built in the US (or Canada or Mexico)? And I doubt many European customers for BMW or Mercedes SUVs are aware there's a good chance they were built in the US.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:11 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 9):

You must be joking... go to a high-school of your choice and ask a girl of your choice...

Your kidding right?

No question the 747 is the most well known airplane. Yeah a 16 year old man not know what it is but I bet the parents do.........
 
atct
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:43 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 14):
Your kidding right?

You're*

I would wager 90% of the public could not pick out a 747 from an A380 or A340 in a lineup.
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WesternDC6B
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:32 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
And I doubt many European customers for BMW or Mercedes SUVs are aware there's a good chance they were built in the US.

At an automotive-centered website I read, one sees a lot of complaints about VWs built in Mexico over issues like ignition coil burnouts and other design flaws. You can stand on your head pointing out that both the design and manufacture of the offending part is German, but the complainants will have none of that. It's Mexico's fault. I guess this is because a Mexican bolted that part into the car, not a German.

So, yes, there ARE people who are particular about such things, some, as cited in my example, to an unreasonable degree.
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Jetlagged
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:30 pm

Quoting N415XJ (Thread starter):
I know that, until recently, Americans were very opposed to foreign-made cars. My father recalls many times when he had people curse at him or throw things for driving a Volvo as recently as the late 80s. Did this xenophobia/protectionism extend to aircraft in the 1960s when United started using Caravelles? I think I recall reading that Eastern faced some deal of criticism when they first bought the A300 (I could be wrong though).

In the case of the Caravelle there was no competition, it was the first short haul twin jet. So how could there be an outcry against it? Also back then having jets in the fleet was more important than having US made aircraft. Once the DC-9 came on the scene there might well have resistance to a US airline ordering a European competitor. BOAC got similar reactions when they ordered 707s.

The A300 was a direct competitor to the DC-10 and L-1011 and so Eastern may well have been criticised for ordering it.
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diverted
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:55 pm

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 12):
Isn't it strange that people are so concerned with where their plane was made.

Whether the manufacturer is headquartered in Chicago, Montreal, São Paulo or Toulouse makes no difference, the plane is full of parts and equipment from somewhere else - civil aviation is truly a global industry.

Exactly. If it's been through the certification process, it makes no difference to me.

Why would the location of manufacture matter anyways? I'd expects a TLS built 320 to be the same as an XFW or TSN, and I could care less where it was built.

I'd also imagine DL's 2 Chinese MD-90s are the same as their American ones, aside from the "country of manufacture" on the safety cards.
 
coolian2
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:10 am

Quoting diverted (Reply 18):
Why would the location of manufacture matter anyways? I'd expects a TLS built 320 to be the same as an XFW or TSN, and I could care less where it was built.

I just don't want one made on a Friday afternoon!
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atct
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:35 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 19):
I just don't want one made on a Friday afternoon!

Everyday is friday, or monday, or saturday to someone in the aviation industry. We don't have weekends like the rest of the world.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:48 pm

Quoting WesternDC6B (Reply 16):

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
And I doubt many European customers for BMW or Mercedes SUVs are aware there's a good chance they were built in the US.

At an automotive-centered website I read, one sees a lot of complaints about VWs built in Mexico over issues like ignition coil burnouts and other design flaws. You can stand on your head pointing out that both the design and manufacture of the offending part is German, but the complainants will have none of that. It's Mexico's fault. I guess this is because a Mexican bolted that part into the car, not a German.

So, yes, there ARE people who are particular about such things, some, as cited in my example, to an unreasonable degree.

There are indeed such people. And these are the people who frequent automotive-websites, just like 99.99% of people do not.

Same as a.nut.
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coolian2
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:25 am

Quoting atct (Reply 20):
Everyday is friday, or monday, or saturday to someone in the aviation industry. We don't have weekends like the rest of the world.

Settle.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
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Viscount724
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:09 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 17):
In the case of the Caravelle there was no competition, it was the first short haul twin jet. So how could there be an outcry against it? Also back then having jets in the fleet was more important than having US made aircraft. Once the DC-9 came on the scene there might well have resistance to a US airline ordering a European competitor.

UA seemed to almost promote the fact that the Caravelle was foreign. A 1961 UA ad for the Caravelle mentions the "powerful Rolls-Royce engines". And they were all named for French cities and the name appeared on the aircraft in French (e.g. Ville de Toulouse, Ville de Paris etc.) That was quite exotic for a U.S. carrier whose only international route then was the 127 mile, 30 minute sector SEA-YVR. Although, if memory correct, UA was then the largest airline in the "free world" (meaning "except Aeroflot") in passenger traffic.

UA's 20 Caravelles, their delivery and retirement dates, and names:

N1001U 05/61 02/71 VILLE DE TOULOUSE
N1002U 06/61 05/70 VILLE DE CAHORS
N1003U 07/61 11/71 VILLE DE MARSEILLE
N1004U 07/61 12/71 VILLE DE PARIS
N1005U 08/61 01/72 VILLE DE GRENOBLE
N1006U 08/61 02/72 VILLE DE SAINTES
N1007U 08/61 05/70 VILLE DE COUTANCES
N1008U 09/61 03/72 VILLE DE ROCHEFORT
N1009U 10/61 03/72 VILLE DE ROUEN
N1010U 10/61 01/72 VILLE DE STRASBOURG
N1011U 10/61 10/71 VILLE DE DIJON
N1012U 11/61 03/71 VILLE DE LILLE
N1013U 11/61 01/72 VILLE DE ARLES
N1014U 11/61 12/71 VILLE DE NICE
N1015U 12/61 12/70 VILLE DE SAINT-NAZAIRE
N1016U 12/61 01/72 VILLE DE NANTES
N1017U 12/61 12/70 VILLE DE CANNES
N1018U 01/62 01/72 VILLE DE BORDEAUX
N1019U 01/62 03/72 VILLE DE LYON
N1020U 02/62 03/72 VILLE DE CALAIS
 
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hispanola
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:13 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 3):
Public knowledge in terms of aircraft isn't really that common.
Quoting citationjet (Reply 6):
Most people today when flying on an RJ don't know if it was made in Canada or Brazil.

Absolutely, and it isn't just in USA. I recently flew with a friend on an YW CRJX and she was shocked when I told her that it was built by a Canadian company. When we landed in MAD, she pointed to an IB A320 and asked "what about that one?" When I tried to explain to her how Airbus works, she said that she felt scandalised that IB didn't operate anything 100% Spanish. She then asked if IB was even from Spain....

People don't know much about airplanes. Perhaps it's because most people don't fly often, or perhaps it's because they think it's a complicated topic. The former is more likely, however. Like someone else said earlier about Mexican VWs, people know more about cars because most of us get in one daily/weekly. If they only knew airplanes as well as cars there may be more controversy over country of origin.

[Edited 2016-04-14 00:14:38]
✈️
 
rugger
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:35 am

The only complaint I ever heard of with the Caravelle when UA operated it was the noise it made over the suburbs adjacent to ORD. Those were very loud when they went overhead at low altitude.

I think more airlines would have ordered the BAC 111, but the U.S. Government in all of it's protectionism decided not to back any loans the airlines would need to purchase the jet. Without U.S. government backing on the aircraft loans very few wanted to stick their necks out that far.
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:02 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 19):
I just don't want one made on a Friday afternoon!
Quoting atct (Reply 20):
Everyday is friday, or monday, or saturday to someone in the aviation industry. We don't have weekends like the rest of the world.

I dont know......my company took delivery of an A332 in 2000......it had a lower reliability than the rest of the fleet,even as the newest airframe. We were all convinced it had final assembly during the Monday-Wednesday after France won the World Cup (that's soccer for you Yank's) 16 years later.......its still the least liked of the fleet for MX and crew.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:09 pm

Quoting N415XJ (Thread starter):
My father recalls many times when he had people curse at him or throw things for driving a Volvo as recently as the late 80s.

That's funny.

I had a Volvo 164 from 1971 to 1973 and my office-mate had a Sunbeam.
Back in State College, Pennsylvania, we had auto dealers for both.

But both cars eventually turned in garage queens.

Btw, in the early 70s, I flew many times on Piedmont Airlines' Japanese YS-11 turboprops.
So . . . why would UA be singled out for buying the Caravelle?

[Edited 2016-04-14 08:14:11]
 
masseybrown
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:01 pm

The only criticism of the Caravelles I can remember was that they were all first-class seating; and, for the same price, it was very much inferior in dimensions and comfort to the first-class seating in the DC-8's and 720's.
 
flflyer
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:57 pm

I flew the Caravelle as a teen many times out of CLE to ATL, JAX and EWR. Cool aircraft with the first class seating and impressive take off vs a prop.
 
kaitak
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:34 pm

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 17):
In the case of the Caravelle there was no competition, it was the first short haul twin jet. So how could there be an outcry against it?

That was my thinking; the Caravelle was the first short haul jet, a good 3-4 years ahead of the 727, so there was nothing American they could have chosen.

Quoting masseybrown (Reply 28):
The only criticism of the Caravelles I can remember was that they were all first-class seating; and, for the same price, it was very much inferior in dimensions and comfort to the first-class seating in the DC-8's and 720's.

I think they also experimented with "men only" flights at one stage in the early1960s; can you imagine that today!?

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 26):
I dont know......my company took delivery of an A332 in 2000......it had a lower reliability than the rest of the fleet,even as the newest airframe. We were all convinced it had final assembly during the Monday-Wednesday after France won the World Cup (that's soccer for you Yank's) 16 years later.......its still the least liked of the fleet for MX and crew.

'EWR?
 
peanuts
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:45 pm

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 2):
Here's a phone call JFK made complaining about PanAm going with the Concorde instead of supporting the American made version.

Who is he speaking to? That person seems so low energy and just not really with it. He functions more as a soundboard for JFK to yell at.
 
superjeff
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:20 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 30):
the

The Chicago Executive (New York to Chicago) and the New York Executive (Chicago to New York operated at the dinner time and were marketed as Businessman flights - even serving cigars after dinner. Women weren't welcome back in the day  .
 
Viscount724
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:45 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 30):
I think they also experimented with "men only" flights at one stage in the early1960s; can you imagine that today!?

It wasn't an experiment. UA operated those "Men Only Executive Flights" between New York and Chicago for over 15 years. Started around 1954 using DC-6B. In a 1959 timetable it was DC-7 and then back to DC-6B in 1961. While operated with propeller types it was LGA-MDW. Switched to EWR-ORD when the Caravelle was introduced on those flights around 1962. I don't believe UA used the Caravelle at LGA.

The schedule never changed for the entire 15 or more years those flights operated. Left at 5 PM in both directions, daily except Saturday. There was a surcharge over the standard first class fare. In 1954 the surcharge was $3 (equivalent to $26 today) on the fare of $45 (equivalent to $398 today). By 1959 the surcharge was still $3 and the fare had increased to $48.

The EWR-ORD Caravelle service remained until those flights ended around 1970 or thereabouts. It was still operating in 1969. I can't find any timetables from the next couple of years so not certain when it ended. It probably ended about the time the Caravelles were retired, which was also about the time a "men only" service would have started to become politically-incorrect.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:18 am

Quoting hispanola (Reply 24):
People don't know much about airplanes. Perhaps it's because most people don't fly often, or perhaps it's because they think it's a complicated topic. The former is more likely, however. Like someone else said earlier about Mexican VWs, people know more about cars because most of us get in one daily/weekly. If they only knew airplanes as well as cars there may be more controversy over country of origin.

I'm not so sure. Many people drive everyday and can't describe anything under the hood, don't know if they have a spare tire and where it is, let alone how to use it, etc.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
SFOThinker
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:12 pm

I remember United advertising it as the "captivating Caravelle." With the names given to them (thanks, Viscount 724!), they were clearly marketing them as French.
 
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:46 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 9):
You must be joking... go to a high-school of your choice and ask a girl of your choice...

You actually believe the denizens of a.net actually TALK TO A GIRL??      
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
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atypical
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:17 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
The EWR-ORD Caravelle service remained until those flights ended around 1970 or thereabouts. It was still operating in 1969. I can't find any timetables from the next couple of years so not certain when it ended. It probably ended about the time the Caravelles were retired, which was also about the time a "men only" service would have started to become politically-incorrect.

SBN had Caravelle service and I think it was as a stop between Chicago and NY.
 
WIederling
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:11 am

Quoting WesternDC6B (Reply 16):
You can stand on your head pointing out that both the design and manufacture of the offending part is German, but the complainants will have none of that. It's Mexico's fault.

Rubbish.

You order a part conforming to specs in humongous numbers and put it in the production line bins.
It need not be designed in Germany or manufactured in Germany.
You'll find ignition coils from different manufacturers in the same vehicle made in different month or made just days apart.
Murphy is an optimist
 
UA735WL
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:08 am

[quote=WIederling,reply=38]


Just an anecdote:


The flight school I currently attend recently received a new batch of C172s, assembled from parts manufactured in Mexico by an arm of Cessna located there. For whatever reason, these airplanes all turned out to be lemons, for lack of a better term- many problems related to magnetos and electrical faults surfaced more or less immediately, as well as a somewhat alarming tendency to (over time) develop running cracks that span the entire underside section of wing directly overlying the top of the flaps.

Management decided that this was due to shoddy Mexican manufacturing practices, and initially demanded that Cessna replace the airplanes with US- manufactured examples. However, when the Cessna company reps arrived to inspect the damages, they concluded that the shoddy airplanes had actually been the result of an unfortunate disconnect between the factory in Mexico and the engineers in Kansas- specifications with respect to the type and grade of metals to be used for these particular airplanes had apparently been miscommunicated, with the end result being a defective product.

The airframes in question are now being overhauled one by one in the same factory in Mexico that initially produced them, under corrected specifications. The ones that have been returned have performed extremely satisfactorily. But one can see that sometimes foreign manufactured components can possess flaws that domestically produced parts would not- but not necessarily because their country of manufacturing has "shoddy workmanship"...there are other factors to take into account as well.



Cheers,


Jonas
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" -Tex Johnston
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:49 am

Quoting Rugger (Reply 25):
I think more airlines would have ordered the BAC 111, but the U.S. Government in all of it's protectionism decided not to back any loans the airlines would need to purchase the jet. Without U.S. government backing on the aircraft loans very few wanted to stick their necks out that far.

Right. Bonanza actually ordered the 111 but a failure to approve the loan resulted in an order for the DC9. Imagine, an Air West 111!

I am curious if any other US carriers came close to a 111 order at the time.
 
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atypical
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:47 am

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 40):
Right. Bonanza actually ordered the 111 but a failure to approve the loan resulted in an order for the DC9. Imagine, an Air West 111!

I am curious if any other US carriers came close to a 111 order at the time.

Was the US government backing the loans on the DC-9 then?
 
skymiler
Posts: 326
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:40 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 18):
I'd also imagine DL's 2 Chinese MD-90s are the same as their American ones, aside from the "country of manufacture" on the safety cards.

I have flown on both of them (and have a snap of the safety card, which I have used to freak out some friends, just for fun). No discernible difference -- even the cockpit crews rarely notice that they are on 1 of the 2 oddballs ..
I love to fly, and it shows!
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3133
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:06 pm

Quoting N415XJ (Thread starter):
My father recalls many times when he had people curse at him or throw things for driving a Volvo as recently as the late 80s

I doubt that happened. Like the myth of American Vietnam vets receiving abuse. People have to make up stories for their persecution complexes. The only cars I can see making people visibly upset back then would be Japanese or Russian by people angry about the world war or the cold war.
 
GDB
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:36 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 32):
The Chicago Executive (New York to Chicago) and the New York Executive (Chicago to New York operated at the dinner time and were marketed as Businessman flights - even serving cigars after dinner. Women weren't welcome back in the day

Sounds like something out of Mad Men !

To the subject, the Caravelle was a pioneer as a short haul jet, remember it dates back to the 1950's, RR Avon engines and if the nose looks similar to that of a DH Comet, there's a good reason for that.
For quite a few years there was no real match, the next being the BAC 1-11.

Capitol Airlines not only ordered another pioneering airliner, in the shape of the Viscount, it also ordered 14 DH Comet 4's, however the sale fell through due to difficulties at Capitol.

I don't when it was dropped but my understanding was that in this period there was an effective 35% import tax on foreign airliners, when however the domestic industry had no real competition as was the case in the early years of the Viscount and Caravelle and for a time, the BAC 1-11 too, if it was still in place for some or all of these it did not work in it's nakedly protectionist mission.

Within that angry call from JFK was perhaps the seeds of the US SST's problems, that PA (and soon a whole bunch of other US carriers), took out options on Concorde, it was a political decision to not only kickstart a US SST but that it was not enough for it to be bigger but also not a mere Mach 2 but Mach 3!
This was reduced to Mach 2.7 but still meant an airframe largely of titanium, an exotic and difficult material to work with back then, plus awarding the eventual contract to Boeing's initial, hugely complex, impractical swing wing 2707.

There was a postscript to this story, not long after Congress ended funding the now redesigned tailed delta 2707 in 1971, President Nixon met his French counterpart in the Azores.
Dicky came by AF1 a 707, his opposite number in a prototype Concorde.
Nixon, who had wanted to keep the 2707 going, was not amused and felt slighted.
He felt it a symbol of a US not 'staying on top', he had been (responding in part to polls) the POTUS who has slashed NASA but he made sure that their next project, then far from certain, would get his full support. The Space Transportation System, better known as the Shuttle.
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:39 pm

Quoting atypical (Reply 41):
Was the US government backing the loans on the DC-9 then?

IIRC, it was the Ex Im bank, so yes, I believe there was a government connection.
 
Viscount724
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Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:43 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 44):

Capitol Airlines not only ordered another pioneering airliner, in the shape of the Viscount, it also ordered 14 DH Comet 4's, however the sale fell through due to difficulties at Capitol.

Capital, not Capitol. Two different U.S. airlines. Capitol was mainly charter although they did have a few scheduled routes in their latter years.


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longhauler
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RE: Was UA Criticized For Their Caravelles?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:59 pm

Quoting atypical (Reply 41):
Was the US government backing the loans on the DC-9 then?

No. But they did say that if Bonanza bought the BAC 111, they would end the subsidies under which they were flying.

Mohawk lost a lot of their subsidies when they bought the BAC 111, but they stated that the competitive edge of the jet more than made up for it.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!

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