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bgm
Posts: 2535
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:07 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 149):
If the US airline industry has thought any lesson, it's ' don't be like us '. Whilst they are raking in profits at this period in time, history tells us it's been riding a roller coaster on a mainly downward pattern almost since its inception, surviving only on the back of favourable but highly unjust legislation, sweet-deal bankruptcy laws, and mergers any anti-competition authority worth it's salt, would have put a stop to.

The latest round of mergers have only steepened the slope to lowest common denominator when it comes to customer experience, but has not been accompanied by more competition or lower prices. Quite the opposite, actually. Couple that with oil prices at a virtual bargain, it's a small wonder they're raking in the dough. But present them with one or two major obstacles, and it's off to Ch. 11 court within a half dozen of the hellish quarterlies they live by.

I'm not particularly fond of the labour practices enjoyed by DY but, on the other hand, we are talking about labour in an international market and, with all respect to cabin attendants, jobs in the back of the bus are not contingent upon a multi-year education. Similarities with the shipping industry? I dare say yes.

All that is, however, besides the point. The point being, that NAI fulfils the requirement to gain authorisation to operate between the EU and US. There are no if's or but's about it within the framework agreed by the US and EU.

In any democracy there should of course be ample opportunity to raise concerns over issues such as this, and I dare say we have certainly heard a lot of robust opinions being offered. One might, however, question a political system which allows a 40-day process to turn into a 2-year ordeal, and perhaps even start wondering how democracy turned to plutocracy. It certainly hasn't been pretty to watch. No, let me correct that: It's been an awful disgrace. Let us be clear of one thing: US airlines have outsourced far, far more jobs to '3rd world' countries than ANY airline operating into it's home country. But turn the page on them, and they collectively run off crying to mommy US political system. With some margin of success, even. It's pathetic!

Excellent post.    I couldn't have put it better myself.
 
Mortyman
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:48 am

Clear talk from the juridical branch of DOT here:

"First, DOT's statute unambiguously establishes that no public interest analysis is necessary or even appropriate in reviewing the permit application here."

"Second, nothing in plain language or negotiating history of the US-EU Agreement states - or even implies - that Article 17 bis trumps the other provisions in the Agreement. Indeed, both the plain language and the negotiating history of Article 17 bis establish that its provisions are not mandatory."


You can read more here:

https://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2013-0204-0223
 
Natflyer
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:10 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 134):
1 - Ireland is ranked higher than the US in aviation oversight. 2 - Ireland and Norway are signatories to EU US openskies3 Norwegian Airlines Ireland is a bonafide airline under oversight of the IRISH CAA. It's ownership is fully within the scope of the Open Skies agreement. 4 - NAI is hiring staff legally 5- all staff are under the oversight of a worldclass CAA with extensive oversight of managing multi country operations. Why should NAI be denied a licence?

Right. When I flew EI- registered aircraft in the 1990's for an Irish AOC operator, that fleet was in the poorest technical condition of any fleet I have ever worked on.
And the Irish CAA was never seen.
 
BestWestern
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:08 am

Quoting Natflyer (Reply 153):
Right

Yes right.

Quoting Natflyer (Reply 152):
When I flew EI- registered aircraft in the 1990's for an Irish AOC operator, that fleet was in the poorest technical condition of any fleet I have ever worked on

A 25 year old anicdote from a cargo operator isn't worth.....

Quoting Natflyer (Reply 152):
sh**

In the past you have complained about FR oversight too.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Mortyman
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:25 pm

Quoting Natflyer (Reply 152):
Is Mortyman the official Norwegian voice to anet?

No, ... Are you disappointed ?
 
bgm
Posts: 2535
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:33 pm

Quoting Natflyer (Reply 153):
Right. When I flew EI- registered aircraft in the 1990's for an Irish AOC operator, that fleet was in the poorest technical condition of any fleet I have ever worked on.
And the Irish CAA was never seen.

Yet your beloved FAA has no problem with Irish registered planes flying in the US.

Sour grapes, anyone?
 
VFRonTop
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:02 pm

RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:54 pm

Quoting Natflyer (Reply 152):
Ireland is the labour sh**house of Europe. And I have worked for a s****y Irish company. They will do all they can to rip off the employee.

- US employers are not required to give any notice of termination, or any severance pay.
- US employers are not required to provide any paid time off.
- No paid sick days,
- No paid vacation time
- No paid maternity leave
- No paid federal holidays
- Only 21 of 50 US states require any meal or rest break time for adult employees (including both paid and unpaid breaks)
- Huge sections of the US jobs market are not entitled to any overtime wage regardless of how many hours they work
- Small business in the US are allowed to discriminate against employees on the basis of race, sex, national origin, pregnancy, et cetera.

 
 
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atypical
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:08 pm

Quoting VFRonTop (Reply 157):
Small business in the US are allowed to discriminate against employees on the basis of race, sex, national origin, pregnancy, et cetera.

That is certainly untrue.
 
VFRonTop
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:02 pm

RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:15 pm

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 67):
Fair: an airline not circumventing its own country's labor laws and regulations to utilize cheap labor and weaker work rules to achieve an advantage they would otherwise not have by following their own rules and regulations.

The flag of convenience model is not a good thing to support. Unless you like seeing US jobs disappear by the thousands. Norwegian already operates Ito the US. There is a reason they want to do this and are pushing for i

Unfortunately the "flag of convenience" argument doesn't fly (pun intended)

When it comes to aviation (and also goods, employment and travel) Europe (the EEA European Economic Area) is seen as a single market, so your 'country' argument just doesn't apply.

Instead you should compare to the different EU 'states' in the EEA to the different US states in the USA. Now your argument starts to look very similar to the situation where US companies can choose to incorporate and operate in different states to benefit from differences in legal requirements and tax obligations.
 
VFRonTop
Posts: 353
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:24 pm

Quoting atypical (Reply 158):
That is certainly untrue

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964

Title VII only applies to employers who employ 15 or more employees for 20 or more weeks in the current or preceding calendar year (42 U.S.C. § 2000e(b)).

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/titlevii.cfm
Follow the link
Under "DEFINITIONS"
Paragraph b - "Employer"

[Edited 2016-04-22 07:40:03]
 
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atypical
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:54 pm

Quoting VFRonTop (Reply 160):
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964

Your are making fallacious presumptions. First and foremost, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is not APPLIED law. It is a directive. For it to be legally binding it must be included in the US Code. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 in itself legally does not apply people or businesses, the only thing it directly applies to is the US Code. Second, laws are limiting unless specifically stated otherwise. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 does not allow for discrimination. Unless you can find the provision that states discrimination is permissible. To say Civil Rights Act of 1964 allows for discrimination is like a teenager saying his parents allowed him to get drunk because the only thing they said to him before he left is, "don't be out too late." Third, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is one of many laws pertaining to discrimination. Pointing to one says nothing about the aggregate whole. As long as you deal with Acts of Congress and ignore the US Code you will miss the mark.
 
bjorn14
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:01 pm

An E190 was delivered to a southern EU country airline but they first went to Ireland where they paid 25% less in taxes by entering the EU through DUB. I wish people would stop bashing DY/DU. If you need to direct your anger turn it towards Ireland as they have created this situation. DY is just taking of advantage of it.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
smokeybandit
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:37 pm

Quoting VFRonTop (Reply 157):

- US employers are not required to give any notice of termination, or any severance pay.
- US employers are not required to provide any paid time off.
- No paid sick days,
- No paid vacation time
- No paid maternity leave
- No paid federal holidays
- Only 21 of 50 US states require any meal or rest break time for adult employees (including both paid and unpaid breaks)
- Huge sections of the US jobs market are not entitled to any overtime wage regardless of how many hours they work
- Small business in the US are allowed to discriminate against employees on the basis of race, sex, national origin, pregnancy, et cetera.

Unless you're in a union, of course.
 
BestWestern
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:46 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 161):
If you need to direct your anger turn it towards Ireland as they have created this situation. DY is just taking of advantage of it.

Or Norway for over taxing and regulating business.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
tortugamon
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:35 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 10):
Americans (conservatives) love preaching free market economics but only as long as they are the dominant side. If it's a foreign company looking to do business in America they suddenly turn protectionist.

Did you miss the part where the US gov't approved the permit? Doesn't really fit with your thesis here.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 46):
Oh please, grow up will you ? There is no proof that US pilots are any better than pilots from other nations.

How many hours did Andreas Lubitz have? Was he alone in the cockpit? Two things that wouldn't have happened in the US.

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 51):
I'm appalled at the protectionist tendencies shown by most US posters here.

Appalled, really? Through the first 50 posts where you said this I saw people talking about safety and working wages. I saw people concerned about their jobs and I saw a ton of posters, including many Americans welcoming this approval. Myself included. Suggesting that people shouldn't wish things that effect their livlihood is silly and misguided.

You talk about posters here like they represent the US. They don't. They are a very biased group. And if you look at the one element that does reflect American values on protectionism can we look at the fact that the permit was approved despite the airlines and many politicians objections? How protectionist is that? Respected your views in the Iran thread a short while ago but your assumption of American values just by reading 50 posts in a thread is off the mark.

Quoting bgm (Reply 61):
So the US is all for capitalism as long as they are the sole beneficiaries. If someone else benefits, then good old protectionism kicks in.  

Um, the permit was approved. You may have missed that. The US has lost countless jobs overseas as a result of free trade. Certainly the US has gained more than its lost but there has been no larger friend to free trade then the US. Get your facts straight.

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 71):
If we do believe in free markets and free trade, then American jobs should be no more desirable or worthy than Norwegian jobs, Irish jobs, or Thai jobs for that matter.

Um what? That is not the goal of free trade. If we didn't all benefit from it, then it wouldn't work.

tortugamon
 
Mortyman
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:40 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 164):
Did you miss the part where the US gov't approved the permit? Doesn't really fit with your thesis here.

After over 2 years of waiting, yes and where the US government, DOT and US airlines clearly has tried everything they possibly could to stall the prosess. Normally such a prosess takes a couple of months.
 
usflyguy
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:21 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 165):
After over 2 years of waiting, yes and where the US government, DOT and US airlines clearly has tried everything they possibly could to stall the prosess. Normally such a prosess takes a couple of months.

I find it highly comical that someone from Norway is perfectly fine with a company bearing their identity ditching them for a different country to give the shaft to the economy where you live. Basically a big ol' FU to Norway.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
Mortyman
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:38 am

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 166):
I find it highly comical that someone from Norway is perfectly fine with a company bearing their identity ditching them for a different country to give the shaft to the economy where you live. Basically a big ol' FU to Norway.

As far as I know, the number of Norwegians working for the company has not changed and Norwegian is still hiring Norwegian personell for it's domestic and European routes.
 
BestWestern
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:47 am

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 166):
it highly comical that someone from Norway is perfectly fine with a company bearing their identity ditching them for a different country to give the shaft to the economy where you live. Basically a big ol' FU to Norway.

Remind me where American Airlines outsourced MX to? Call centre? Lounge management? IT?

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 164):
How many hours did Andreas Lubitz have? Was he alone in the cockpit? Two things that wouldn't have happened in the US.

Surely you can do better that that. I could reply mentioning Colgan, but I won't be that juvenile and trolling.

You do accept the fact that Irleand has a higher ICAO oversight score than the US?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
VFRonTop
Posts: 353
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:49 am

Quoting atypical (Reply 160):
Your are making fallacious presumptions. First and foremost, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is not APPLIED law. It is a directive. For it to be legally binding it must be included in the US Code.

Except is is codified under 42 U.S.C. § 2000e(b)). U.S.C = United States Code

Quoting atypical (Reply 160):
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 does not allow for discrimination. Unless you can find the provision that states discrimination is permissible.

A federal codified law with a clear exception for small businesses, Any lawyer and judge would agree it clearly doesn't apply to small businesses

Quoting atypical (Reply 160):
Third, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is one of many laws pertaining to discrimination

True, but the following federal codes don't apply to small business either:
- Age Discrimination in Employment Act 29 U.S.C. 621-634
- Rehabilitation Act 42 U.S.C. §701
- Americans With Disabilities Act 42 U.S.C. 12101-12213
- Immigration Reform and Control Act 8 U.S.C. 621-634

All of the above is off topic. My point is really directed at

Quoting VFRonTop (Reply 156):
Natflyer (Reply 152):

Labour laws in the US verses Ireland / EU is not your trump card. Move on
 
by738
Posts: 3127
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:07 am

http://m.atwonline.com/data-financia...dens-losses-1q-expansion-continues
Does anyone else have any concerns about Norwegian?
I do wonder if they will be about in the exact same format in next 5 years or so.
They just give me a boom and bust Air Europe type feel.
 
VFRonTop
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:02 pm

RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:10 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 161):
If you need to direct your anger turn it towards Ireland as they have created this situation. DY is just taking of advantage of it.

Ireland and Norway are free to set their own tax and contract laws as long as they align to common European standards. If you feel Ireland's approach is more desirable I'd recommend you petition the Norwegian government to become more competitive. 'unwilling to compete' is not the same as uncompetitive. Norway was chosen its high cost approach to labour supported by taxes and large sovereign/oil wealth. Ireland has taken a different approach more suitable to its economy and size

This, by the way, is no different to the US practice of businesses incorporating in:
Delaware for business friendly laws, regulations and statutes
Nevada for no state taxes
Alaska for no sales taxes
etc...
 
B777LRF
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:43 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 163):
Did you miss the part where the US gov't approved the permit? Doesn't really fit with your thesis here.

Perhaps, but nobody missed the part where a 40-day process turned into a 2-year ordeal. It most certainly fit the thesis!

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 164):
How many hours did Andreas Lubitz have? Was he alone in the cockpit? Two things that wouldn't have happened in the US.

Your argument is ludicrous, but let me see if I can top that: How many times have AA pilots been unable to stop a perfectly serviceable aircraft from overshooting a long-enough runway?

See, individual performances means sod all. What matters are standards and quality. Most, if not all, European majors happily place a 250-hour FNG in the right-hand seat of an A320/737 with no prior jet experience. In the US, you need to have served your dues flying students, dropped meat bombs, hauled freight in the dead of night, then poled a regional rocket bouncing between sh1tty little backwaters, before you can even hope of joining a major. And yet, in the grander scheme of things, there are no discernable differences in incident and accident statistics.
Signature. You just read one.
 
Mortyman
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:01 am

Quoting by738 (Reply 170):
http://m.atwonline.com/data-financia...dens-losses-1q-expansion-continues
Does anyone else have any concerns about Norwegian?
I do wonder if they will be about in the exact same format in next 5 years or so.
They just give me a boom and bust Air Europe type feel.

No


Norwegian is continuing it's massive expansions and expansions cost money. However with time it will generate more money.
 
BestWestern
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:28 am

Quoting by738 (Reply 170):
They just give me a boom and bust Air Europe type feel.

The viability of lower cost point to point long haul is still in question, and whilst I still question their scattered long haul approach of multiple origins to multiple destinations, they have a strong enough hub in Oslo to fill with transit pax. Shannon, Madrid, etc is much riskier except for low frequency routes. Very little European long haul scheduled flights work year round without transit pax - BA' beach fleet and AF' COI fleet are exceptions. Even VS's long haul Heathrow network wasn't viable.

That is not to say however that their Irish rights application wasn't correct. Law and viability are two different things.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Mir
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:42 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 151):
Indeed, both the plain language and the negotiating history of Article 17 bis establish that its provisions are not mandatory."

Declaring that "shall" means "you don't have to" is certainly a peculiar interpretation. I would expect to see "should" instead were that the case.

Quoting VFRonTop (Reply 158):
When it comes to aviation (and also goods, employment and travel) Europe (the EEA European Economic Area) is seen as a single market, so your 'country' argument just doesn't apply.

Instead you should compare to the different EU 'states' in the EEA to the different US states in the USA. Now your argument starts to look very similar to the situation where US companies can choose to incorporate and operate in different states to benefit from differences in legal requirements and tax obligations.

This is a bogus argument, because the US aviation sector has one regulatory structure whereas the EU aviation sector has many different regulatory structures. A US airline would get no benefit in terms of ability to outsource by relocating to a different state because the laws that govern this are federal. Norwegian wants it both ways: they want the EU to be treated as one market when it's convenient for them, and as very different markets when it's convenient for them. Pick one.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
jcwr56
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:38 pm

How many have read the actual order? DOT has done their due diligence. Yet...just yet they leave the door open.

One thing that sticks out, especially if you've read other orders is that they're specifically quoting this twice...

4. The Department’s action with respect to this foreign air carrier permit should, unless
disapproved by the President of the United States under §41307 of Title 49 of the U.S. Code,
become effective on the 61st day after its submission for §41307 review, or upon the date of
receipt of advice from the President or his designee under Executive Order 12597 and
implementing regulations that he or she does not intend to disapprove this portion of the
Department’s decision under that section, whichever occurs earlier.

4. In the event no objections are filed, all further procedural steps shall be deemed waived, and
the Department will enter an order which will (subject to Presidential review under §41307 of
Title 49 of the U.S. Code) make final our tentative findings and conclusions set forth in this
order;

While the DOT issues its' finding and says yes from the legal standpoint, there is the political nature given how this is being perceived by both sides.

One wonders, will we see a Presidential disapproval. As we know, Politics and election years make strange bed fellows.
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 389
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:03 pm

So to sum up this thread:

Everything that the EU or an individual EU country does is wrong and against the spirit of competition (not actually against any laws of course) but every similar thing done by the US (also not against any law) is perfectly acceptable.

Have I missed anything?
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
321neo
Posts: 590
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:08 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 176):
One wonders, will we see a Presidential disapproval.
Barack Obama gives backing to Cork-US flights

"[...]the issue of the proposed transatlantic service was raised in talks between Mr Obama and Taoiseach Enda Kenny during the annual St Patrick’s Day meeting in Washington, DC.

Mr Obama said there was no political impediment to the move."

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ing-to-cork-us-flights-387647.html
 
BestWestern
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:50 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 177):
Everything that the EU or an individual EU country does is wrong and against the spirit of competition (not actually against any laws of course) but every similar thing done by the US (also not against any law) is perfectly acceptable.

Wrong... and dangerous....
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
321neo
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:32 pm

Cork transatlantic flights may start 6 months early

Low-fares aviation giant Norwegian hopes to launch the first transatlantic flights from Cork Airport in August — six months earlier than expected.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...y-start-6-months-early-395374.html

 
Mortyman
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:32 pm

Quoting 321neo (Reply 180):
Cork transatlantic flights may start 6 months early

Low-fares aviation giant Norwegian hopes to launch the first transatlantic flights from Cork Airport in August — six months earlier than expected.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland....html

I thoguht Norwegian were to use the 737 Max for this ? they are not receaving their first 737 Max before 2017 ...
 
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lesfalls
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:35 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 181):

They will use the Max for the ORK-JFK flights next year but for the ORK-BOS service they will use a B737-800 wich will supposedly be flown BCN-ORK-BOS-ORK-BCN.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
aaexecplat
Posts: 511
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:52 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 168):
Remind me where American Airlines outsourced MX to? Call centre? Lounge management? IT?

Bingo. But it is worse than that. Several government agencies contract with foreign technology firms when they could contract with US firms instead. I am about to hire one of those foreign companies to facilitate the transactions between our business and the regulating body we report to.

Lower costs are only good when the US or its interests can gain maximum advantage from them. If it's another country, then it is (insert insult against other nations here).
 
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adamh8297
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:26 pm

Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
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LAXintl
Topic Author
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:42 pm

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 184):
House of Representatives getting involved

I would not worry.

Back in 2014, the House passed an actual bill, but Senate did not take up matter.

And obviously assuming both houses pass a similar bill, it would also require Obama to sign such action as well.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:31 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 185):
I would not worry.

And if Norwegian intends to keep their word, then neither should they.

Representatives Peter DeFazio and Rick Larsen, both Democrats, and Republicans Frank LoBiondo and Lynn Westmoreland, confirmed last night that they have introduced a bipartisan bill that would prevent the US Department of Transportation (DoT) from permitting a foreign air carrier to operate between European countries and the US unless the carrier complies with basic, fair US or EU labour standards.

Norwegian already said they would do this. However, the DOT approval does not make it legally binding on them. If the report is accurate, then all the law would do is obligate Norwegian to do what they said they would. It does not prohibit them from using the Irish certificate, only from doing so for the purpose of outsourcing its labor outside either the US or EU. The other advantages it could get by considering itself Irish would remain, which is fair - as much as one may not like the practice of flagging for convenience within the EU, that's something that the EU has to resolve on its own if it wants to.

If Norwegian has a problem with it, that leads to questions about whether they really intended to keep their word with regard to how they would employ their crews.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Maverick623
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:30 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 186):

Representatives Peter DeFazio and Rick Larsen, both Democrats, and Republicans Frank LoBiondo and Lynn Westmoreland, confirmed last night that they have introduced a bipartisan bill that would prevent the US Department of Transportation (DoT) from permitting a foreign air carrier to operate between European countries and the US unless the carrier complies with basic, fair US or EU labour standards.

Would that not violate treaties already in place?

As far as US labor standards... there are none. Sure, we have a minimum wage laws that don't actually provide for a living wage, overtime laws that don't apply to most "management" employees or "contractors" (an often abused loophole), and unpaid family medical leave that doesn't apply to 90% of businesses.

No sick time, no vacation, no maternity/paternity leave, no requirement on hours worked, nothing. OSHA is a joke, worker's comp is nonexistent.

Sounds like they would still meet US standards, anyways.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Mir
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:24 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 187):
Would that not violate treaties already in place?

What treaties? It certainly wouldn't violate the EU-US agreement.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 187):
As far as US labor standards... there are none. Sure, we have a minimum wage laws that don't actually provide for a living wage, overtime laws that don't apply to most "management" employees or "contractors" (an often abused loophole), and unpaid family medical leave that doesn't apply to 90% of businesses.

No sick time, no vacation, no maternity/paternity leave, no requirement on hours worked, nothing. OSHA is a joke, worker's comp is nonexistent.

All those things have their problems, but are still more effective than you give them credit for. But the main point is that we have control over them. If there's a problem affecting the workers of this country, we have the power to fix that problem and institute new standards through the government (we might not actually do it, but the power is there). The EU has the ability to do so for its workers as well. However, if labor is outsourced to a third country merely for accounting purposes (as opposed to the labor actually taking place in that country), then both the EU and the US lose the ability to correct deficiencies with regard to people working in their respective jurisdictions. That's a problem, and it shouldn't be allowed to happen.

As long as the employees are employed in the jurisdictions in which they work (either or US or one of the EU countries), then Norwegian can call itself Irish if it wants to for tax purposes or better leasing rates or whatever and there's no issue. They say that's what they'll do, but history is littered with companies who said they'll do one thing and then do something completely different. There should be a legal obligation for them to do so. If they're really serious about keeping their word, they've got nothing to worry about.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
mjoelnir
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:38 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 188):
All those things have their problems, but are still more effective than you give them credit for. But the main point is that we have control over them. If there's a problem affecting the workers of this country, we have the power to fix that problem and institute new standards through the government (we might not actually do it, but the power is there). The EU has the ability to do so for its workers as well. However, if labor is outsourced to a third country merely for accounting purposes (as opposed to the labor actually taking place in that country), then both the EU and the US lose the ability to correct deficiencies with regard to people working in their respective jurisdictions. That's a problem, and it shouldn't be allowed to happen.

As long as the employees are employed in the jurisdictions in which they work (either or US or one of the EU countries), then Norwegian can call itself Irish if it wants to for tax purposes or better leasing rates or whatever and there's no issue. They say that's what they'll do, but history is littered with companies who said they'll do one thing and then do something completely different. There should be a legal obligation for them to do so. If they're really serious about keeping their word, they've got nothing to worry about.

So you are stating that the US3 are all in breach, as they are outsourcing work to third countries?
 
Mir
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:12 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 189):
So you are stating that the US3 are all in breach, as they are outsourcing work to third countries?

Simple test: is the employee employed where the work is being done?

In the case of outsourced maintenance, yes: a Chinese company gets a contract to do maintenance, and the mechanics are employed in China to do the work in China. Same thing in the case of a call center outsourced to India: the employees are physically in India and are employed under Indian jurisdiction. We might wish that the work were not outsourced, but from a legal standpoint there's nothing wrong there.

In the case of what Norwegian could do, no: the crews fly routes between the EU and the US, but are employed under the laws of a third country. This enables Norwegian to escape having to comply with the labor standards that apply to its competitors in the US-EU market, and neither the US nor EU can do anything about it because they don't have jurisdiction in the third country. That enables social dumping, and the EU-US agreement is not to be used for that purpose.

The simple solution is to employ the crews in a country that is party to the EU-US agreement. Because those countries have, through various other treaties and agreements, made themselves into a single labor market, that country doesn't have to be Ireland or Norway - it could be Portugal or Poland or wherever Norwegian thinks it could get cheap labor. It could also be the US. Either way, there would still be EU (or US) oversight and a process that could be used to address issues should they arise.

NAI's existence in and of itself is not problematic - there are many ways that NAI could operate that would not violate the EU-US agreement. The problem is that they are not limited to those ways, and there is no clear corrective mechanism to be taken if they decide to operate in ways that do violate the agreement. That sets a very bad precedent that could be used by Norwegian or by another airline down the road.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
StuckInCA
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:29 am

As I've said in similar threads, welcome to the real world. Most industries have to compete against all comers no matter where they are - even if they are government subsidized.

It is what it is. Either the rules change for everyone or the airline industry must adapt.
 
bgm
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:34 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 190):
Simple test: is the employee employed where the work is being done?

Semantics. The result is the same. Cheaper labor utilizing foreign workers.

I would be very curious to see the details of these non-EU contracts, and what benefits are provided, if any. Given that the US has horrible labor laws, are these contracts any better than for example, an FA working at a US regional?
 
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atypical
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:09 am

Quoting VFRonTop (Reply 169):
True, but the following federal codes don't apply to small business either:
- Age Discrimination in Employment Act 29 U.S.C. 621-634
- Rehabilitation Act 42 U.S.C. §701
- Americans With Disabilities Act 42 U.S.C. 12101-12213
- Immigration Reform and Control Act 8 U.S.C. 621-634

You are misrepresenting the law. For example, ADA standards must be met for all new retail construction no matter how large or small the business.

You are also ignoring state and local laws. These are no less than important federal laws.

Your characterizations are untrue. You have refused to truthfully state the laws in this country now on a second occasion. You are demonstrably mistating the ADA as the example proves. You certainly are not attempting to be an honest broker and that precludes further discussion.
 
Mortyman
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RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:25 am

Long-distance routes between London and the US is manned by Britons and Americans on British and American terms
 
mjoelnir
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Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:08 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 190):
In the case of outsourced maintenance, yes: a Chinese company gets a contract to do maintenance, and the mechanics are employed in China to do the work in China. Same thing in the case of a call center outsourced to India: the employees are physically in India and are employed under Indian jurisdiction. We might wish that the work were not outsourced, but from a legal standpoint there's nothing wrong there.

You are just into semantics. If you look at Norwegian the work, hypothetical, would be done on the flight from Europe to the USA not on American soil.

Here on A.net the only bother seems to be what happens to crew. Every body else at an airline does not matter. To outsource the work of a call center or maintenance facility is not a tiny bit morally superior to outsourcing the work of a pilot.

Hypocrisy at its best.
 
Mir
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: DOT (Finally) Approves Norwegian Operating Permits

Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:56 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 194):
Long-distance routes between London and the US is manned by Britons and Americans on British and American terms


And if it continues to be that way then there's no problem. So you should have no reason to oppose the law.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 195):
Here on A.net the only bother seems to be what happens to crew. Every body else at an airline does not matter. To outsource the work of a call center or maintenance facility is not a tiny bit morally superior to outsourcing the work of a pilot.

Hypocrisy at its best.

I do care about those things. I said so in my post. But legally there is little that can be done. But rest assured that if a company did try to open up a maintenance facility in the EU but claim that it's actually a Liberian company so that its employees who very definitely do their work in the EU should fall under Liberian labor standards rather than EU labor standards so that they can offer a cheaper product, I would be of the opinion that that's very much illegal. Of course that sort of thing doesn't happen, because a lot of other people see it as illegal too. But somehow, curiously, it's not the same when it comes to crew.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day

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