Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

PDX88 · Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Relatable to the current thread of a man removed from a Southwest flight for speaking Arabic, a Muslim woman traveling MDW-SEA was asked to deplane because she made the flight attendant uncomfortable.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...comfortable-with-the-a6986661.html

Quote:
Hakima Abdulle was told to disembark a Southwest Airlines plane at a Chicago airport after she asked the man next to her whether she could move to the aisle seat, and he had agreed. A flight attendant then approached Ms Abdulle and said they were not allowed to swap seats, despite the airline’s policy of unassigned seating.

A statement from Southwest Airlines read: "Information available, collected at the time of the event, indicates that our employees followed proper procedures in response to this customer's actions while onboard the aircraft. Out of respect for the customer's privacy, we will not share specifics about her conduct or travel experience.

Southwest is defending the FA instead of apologizing, gives hint there's more to the story than the news article lets on. Still terrible PR for this to happen twice in on day.

art · Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:54 pm

Quote:
A flight attendant then approached Ms Abdulle and said they were not allowed to swap seats, despite the airline’s policy of unassigned seating.

Ms Abdulle asked why she could not switch. The flight attendant did not adequately respond and asked her to get off the plane.

IMO quite ridiculous.

StrandedAtMKG · Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:54 pm

For WN to do this twice in one day at two different stations 2,000 miles apart and then fall back on PR about "procedures" both times, and for this to be at least the fourth recent incident like this at WN, definitely points to it being a WN problem, not a Muslim problem or societal problem.

Prinair · Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:55 pm

So far this indicates that Southwest does investigate any security concerns and will not hesitate to take any needed action to guarantee the security of their flights.

MD11Engineer · Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:16 pm

Quoting Prinair (Reply 4):
So far this indicates that Southwest does investigate any security concerns and will not hesitate to take any needed action to guarantee the security of their flights.

BS. They just pander to the whims of the paranoid idiots. Do you know Muslims personally Have you ever worked, lived, studied with Muslims or have any other contact? I guess not.

Jan

mjoelnir · Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:18 pm

Quoting Prinair (Reply 4):
So far this indicates that Southwest does investigate any security concerns and will not hesitate to take any needed action to guarantee the security of their flights.

So far this indicates that Southwest has racist staff and does nothing about it. Throwing persons, not being terrorists, or any danger at all, off airplanes, hardly enhances security. Crying wolf to often usually reduces security in the end.

Revelation · Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:26 pm

Quoting PDX88 (Thread starter):
Relatable to the current thread of a man removed from a Southwest flight for speaking Arabic, a Muslim woman traveling MDW-SEA was asked to deplane because she made the flight attendant uncomfortable.

... yet we have no information that says the reason the FA was uncomfortable because the woman was a Muslim ...

Report says:

Quote:

The Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) has called for an investigation of a possible “bias motive” as the woman was of Somali descent and was wearing a headscarf.

Emphasis on 'possible'...

art · Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:39 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 6):
Throwing persons, not being terrorists, or any danger at all, off airplanes, hardly enhances security. Crying wolf to often usually reduces security in the end.

I would say it undernines security. If you put a group under suspicion and react unreasonably against that group, you may push otherwise pacific members of that group into adopting violent opposition to your society.

scbriml · Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:46 pm

Quoting Prinair (Reply 4):
So far this indicates that Southwest does investigate any security concerns and will not hesitate to take any needed action to guarantee the security of their flights.

Yeah, right.

Prinair · Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:48 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):

Yes, I have. Most of them are wonderful people.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 6):

Investigating any security concern or removing someone from a flight does not make a company racist.

csavel · Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:43 pm

If it was the 'seat-switching' and not out and out bigotry then why was the man *who had agreed to switch seats* not hauled off the plane? I mean seriously , you can't switch a seat without another willing partner. Hmmm.

Acheron · Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:52 pm

Quoting Prinair (Reply 4):

So far this indicates that Southwest does investigate any security concerns and will not hesitate to take any needed action to guarantee the security of their flights.

More like they won't fail to cater to the paranoia and prejudice of their passengers.

NoTime · Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:36 am

Assuming this wasn't a brand new FA - how many muslim people do you think this FA has served in his/her career? And he/she JUST NOW decided to potentially ruin their career because of some newly found bigoted feelings?

Come on people. Seriously?

My money is on the fact that there is more to this story, and this passengers actions/behavior played a big factor.

sierrakilo44 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:42 am

Quoting NoTime (Reply 32):
how many muslim people do you think this FA has served in his/her career?

Probably none

Quoting NoTime (Reply 32):
because of some newly found bigoted feelings?

Hate to say it, but I'm looking in the direction of "you know who" and his toxic vitrolic remarks towards muslims that have gained so much prominence that any underlying fears some Americans may have felt towards muslims has morphed into open racism emboldened by the popularity of the aforementioned tool. I mean the guy has openly said that America should kill innocent muslim civilians if they believe they might be the family members of terrorists. When you devalue a human life to that point kicking a muslim woman off a plane is no big deal.

Quoting NoTime (Reply 32):
My money is on the fact that there is more to this story, and this passengers actions/behavior played a big factor.

Of course, she was dark skinned and was wearing a hijab, had to be up to no good..... /s

[Edited 2016-04-16 18:48:03]

blueflyer · Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:53 am

Quoting NoTime (Reply 32):
My money is on the fact that there is more to this story, and this passengers actions/behavior played a big factor.

As usual, there is likely more to the story, although I do think Southwest has a PR problem in that it appears to be kicking more Muslims off their flight for being Muslims than other airlines of late. It may be a coincidence, a reflection of company policy, or a sad commentary on Southwest's passengers.

777ER · Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:41 am

Please keep on topic and STOP the racist comments. This topic is worthy of being discussed but racist comments isn't.

Failure to follow the rules which everyone agreed to when signing up for A.net could result in your account being suspended.

Regards

777ER
Head Forum Moderator

alfa164 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:48 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 15):
I do think Southwest has a PR problem in that it appears to be kicking more Muslims off their flight for being Muslims than other airlines of late. It may be a coincidence, a reflection of company policy, or a sad commentary on Southwest's passengers.

To an outsider, Southwest seems to almost take pride in their prejudices; the truth is probably a little different. WN has always given their employees the right to make whatever decisions they think they need to make, with the tacit promise that the company will back them all the way. That worked well when Southwest was flying to 3 cities, with a close cadre of employees who knew and understood each other. Even now it may seem admirable at first glance, but it also invites situations like this.

Southwest Airlines was once the bastion of young, friendly, open-minded - or so it seemed - staffers. As it has grown, it appears that pool of like-minded recruits has dwindled. The policy that works when you have a cohesive, enthusiastic work corps is not necessarily a good thing when that group no longer dominates the company. Backing everyone - regardless of the circumstances - allows bigots, dogmatists, and malcontents to gain a sense of authority and control.

It might be time for "the little airline that could" to allow its policies to grow up, just like the airline has.

SCQ83 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:51 am

Southwest is headquartered in Dallas, TEXAS. I wonder if that has something to do with those "policies".

enzo011 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:14 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
... yet we have no information that says the reason the FA was uncomfortable because the woman was a Muslim ...

Report says:

Quote:

The Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) has called for an investigation of a possible “bias motive” as the woman was of Somali descent and was wearing a headscarf.

Emphasis on 'possible'...

I think it is admirable of CAIR to not jump on the islamaphobia angle. They are being polite to not call out the airline while they are investigating. This however does open up the questions that you raise seeing as they aren't making a big deal out of it now.

But as csavel points out in post 10,

Quoting csavel (Reply 10):
If it was the 'seat-switching' and not out and out bigotry then why was the man *who had agreed to switch seats* not hauled off the plane? I mean seriously , you can't switch a seat without another willing partner. Hmmm.

EA CO AS · Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:34 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 5):
this indicates that Southwest has racist staff and does nothing about it.

Right on time, the knee-jerk "The airline is always wrong!" comment before any further information has come out.

yoni · Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:44 am

What I am reading from this thread is abject. This has nothing to do with aviation. It should be deleted.

mjoelnir · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:06 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):
Right on time, the knee-jerk "The airline is always wrong!" comment before any further information has come ou

Ah is the the "Mr. the airline is always right" awake, will you now defend the right of an airline to throw of mid eastern looking or Islamic looking people of the airplane?

EA CO AS · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:25 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 25):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):Right on time, the knee-jerk "The airline is always wrong!" comment before any further information has come ou
Ah is the the "Mr. the airline is always right" awake, will you now defend the right of an airline to throw of mid eastern looking or Islamic looking people of the airplane?

All I'm defending is the right to not jump to conclusions before we have all the information.

mjoelnir · Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:19 am

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...s-muslim-middle-eastern-passengers

how many examples are needed to show a trend.

tommy1808 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:24 am

Quoting NoTime (Reply 13):
Come on people. Seriously?

Virgin Mar..... Kim Davis was married how many times before she decided that marriage is holy and risked her career over it?

Quoting Prinair (Reply 3):
So far this indicates that Southwest does investigate any security concerns and will not hesitate to take any needed action to guarantee the security of their flights.

In that case it should be very easily to proof statistically that not ethnic or religious group gets removed from flights more often then others. So, yesterday we had two Muslims removed from flights, please provide news coverage of white, christian males being moved from flights.

best regards
Thomas

pvjin · Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:30 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 25):
So, yesterday we had two Muslims removed from flights, please provide news coverage of white, christian males being moved from flights.

News flash: If a white Christian male gets removed from a flight, or even shot unarmed by an US policeman, it doesn't get to the mainstream news because nobody really cares. Only events that one can link racism into are interesting enough for the media as they tend to attract the attention of internet's large social justice warrior crowd.

The fact these people were Muslim doesn't mean there couldn't have been a valid reason to remove them from the flights, or should Muslims enjoy some special privilege over others?

TheFlyingDisk · Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:40 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 26):
The fact these people were Muslim doesn't mean there couldn't have been a valid reason to remove them from the flights, or should Muslims enjoy some special privilege over others?

Most of the times, there was no valid reason for the removal of those people. Is talking/texting in Arabic a valid reason for removal?

outbackair · Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:47 am

One would hope that Southwest and other airlines would look at bringing in better training to avoid fear of people based on language or appearance. Does anyone know of any proactive programs in airlines?

It seems though that we do not see such incidents in countries like Canada, Australia and in Europe? Are cabin/flight crew given more leeway because of US laws, or is it training. It seems it's not just a problem for Southwest as we've seen similar situations a number of times in the news recently on a variety of airlines in USA.

TheFlyingDisk · Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:56 am

Quoting outbackair (Reply 28):
It seems though that we do not see such incidents in countries like Canada, Australia and in Europe?

Actually, scratch Europe.

Iraqi scientist kicked off EasyJet flight because passengers thought he was an Islamic extremist

mjoelnir · Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:58 am

Quoting outbackair (Reply 28):
It seems though that we do not see such incidents in countries like Canada, Australia and in Europe? Are cabin/flight crew given more leeway because of US laws, or is it training. It seems it's not just a problem for Southwest as we've seen similar situations a number of times in the news recently on a variety of airlines in USA.

This is happening at least in Europe too. In Europe this happens distributed between countries, news not always in English and not centralized. The USA is big, so I do not really expect it happening there more often in relation to the amount of flights.

SOBHI51 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:01 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 26):
The fact these people were Muslim doesn't mean there couldn't have been a valid reason to remove them from the flights, or should Muslims enjoy some special privilege over others?

Beside speaking Arabic in one case and wearing a scarf in the other can you advise us with your usual unbiased wisdom what other reason for such actions?

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 12):
When police asked the flight attendant at the gate if there was any reason why Ms Abdulle had been taken off the plane, the flight attendant replied “No” and that she “not feel comfortable” with the passenger.

Even the F/A didn't have a good reason.

Remember both passengers went through security already, but if now an F/A has more power to take passengers of a flight just because they look Arab/ Muslims, let's close TSA and save a lot of money.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 26):
or should Muslims enjoy some special privilege over others

No, Muslims want nothing more than being treated like any other passenger, shocking request i know.

[Edited 2016-04-17 03:03:22]

outbackair · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:09 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 29):
Actually, scratch Europe.

Iraqi scientist kicked off EasyJet flight because passengers thought he was an Islamic extremist

Good to see that EasyJet apologised though, and refunded him in full. - '‘We acknowledge that we did not do enough to assist Mr Dewachi and have been in touch with him since to apologise for his experience, reimburse him and have resolved all outstanding issues.’

More airlines (Southwest?) need to do this.

pvjin · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:10 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 31):
Beside speaking Arabic in one case and wearing a scarf in the other can you advise us with your usual unbiased wisdom what other reason for such actions?

My point was that maybe there was some other and actually valid reason, such as bad and insulting / vioent behaviour, than actually just someone speaking Arabic or wearing a scarf. The standards of western journalism are extremely low, thus stories like these should be taken with a grain of salt.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 31):
No, Muslims want nothing more than being treated like any other passenger, shocking request i know.

And in vast majority of cases they definitely are. Of course there's some amount of prejudice, but is that a surprise in a world where ISIS and other radical Islamic organizations keep terrorizing ordinary civilians?

scbriml · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:19 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
My point was that maybe there was some other and actually valid reason, such as bad and insulting / vioent behaviour, than actually just someone speaking Arabic or wearing a scarf.

Not according to the FA that had her thrown off the flight.

mariner · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:20 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
My point was that maybe there was some other and actually valid reason, such as bad and insulting / vioent behaviour, than actually just someone speaking Arabic or wearing a scarf. The standards of western journalism are extremely low, thus stories like these should be taken with a grain of salt.

In this particular case, no.

I guess you didn't read the article, or you missed the part where police asked the f/a if there was any reason the woman should be taken off the flight, and the f/a said "no."

The fa/s then said she "didn't feel comfortable" wth the woman not he flight.

"When police asked the flight attendant at the gate if there was any reason why Ms Abdulle had been taken off the plane, the flight attendant replied “No” and that she “not feel comfortable” with the passenger."

That's all it takes, apparently.

mariner

atcsundevil · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:20 am

Quoting outbackair (Reply 28):
Are cabin/flight crew given more leeway because of US laws, or is it training.

I think it stems from general paranoia. To a degree, a fear has been instilled in many Americans over the past 15 years. I would like to think that the majority of Americans can recognize the difference and realize that all but an infinitesimally small number of Muslims are radicalized, but fear and/or basic ignorance plays a role for some. In situations where denied boardings occur involving a minority of any kind, the decisions by the crew to remove them often seem like they are not always based on the actions of the individual in question, but more so based on the desire to quell any fears or anxious feelings among other passengers (simply an anecdotal observation on my part). Sometimes the reactions of passengers around the "offending party" make comments leading to a verbal or physical confrontation. Without getting political, I think some people recently have been emboldened by the remarks of political figures, which could escalate tensions or increase these types of disruptions. I think these reactions are misguided and unfortunate, but I've never been cabin crew and maybe don't understand the dynamics at play. However, I don't think it's down to any singular carrier as suggested by some -- I think this is an unfortunate side-effect of our recent past, and one that most of us wished was not reality. As an American, I would like to see disruptions such as these end unless there is true and just cause for concern over a passenger's motivations; unfortunately, people will be people, and whether it's a reflection on American society or on world events, I think most rational people would like for these situations to end since most rational people do not desire to live in fear of those around them.

ltbewr · Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:40 am

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 36):
I think it stems from general paranoia.

Part of this is from too many people with prejudicial and ignorant views of Islam, wanting to be a 'hero' to prevent a possible terror act, compounded by the terror events in Brussels, Paris, the mid-air bombing of an airplane in Egypt as well as the serious problems with Islamic world migrants into Europe with some violent acts getting media attention here. Flight staff may also hold such views and believe that it is easier to remove the person who is or seen or their name as of the Islamic faith rather than confront paranoid accusing passengers and escalate the situation.

nitepilot79 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:55 pm

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 36):

Even April Fools' Day jokes about an An-225 being bought by DL get flamed

.

EDIT: Pardon me. The only An-225 duck

.

[Edited 2016-04-17 06:08:34]

reltney · Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:09 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 16):

You job is tough no doubt.

I did not read any racist comments so far. Perhaps this will help everyone know the definition of racist. Most people confuse racist with bigot .

Noun/ adjective. A person who believes a particular race is superior to another.

Good luck..

seahawk · Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:20 pm

Better save than sorry.

sldispatcher · Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:28 pm

You know, the article and the original poster put the fuel to the flame.

I have been on a flight where a passenger was removed (had to return to gate). The passenger became unruly. People around and flight attendants were visually concerned.

I bet that happens numerous times a day. More than we know. The only reason we know about this is because someone decided to fan the racist flames by associating this passenger being removed to her religious status by using "muslim" as a descriptor and then not saying a single thing as to why that descriptor was necessary.

To accuse WN of being racist, when I bet at least hundreds or more other people who just happened to be muslim, flew on WN that same day without incident.

Find me the WN policy that points out a specific plan of discrimination or move along. My goodness, we have airlines that ban entire religions and nary a peep. We need to find our big boy/big girl pants and put them on.

lightsaber · Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:21 pm

I wonder how much of this is the culturally closer talking distance. I'm serious. I've had to ask Muslim coworkers to take a step back as talking really close to an American is a challenge. Even a threat (it is a step to a physical altercation). There is no unprograming someone from taking it that way (I've tried to not take it as a challenge, but as it is programed in at childhood...).

Quoting Prinair (Reply 9):
Investigating any security concern or removing someone from a flight does not make a company racist.

Exactly. I'm siding with WN until I know more. Perhaps these were two inherently confrontational people. I've met both types of Muslims.

Quoting NoTime (Reply 13):
My money is on the fact that there is more to this story, and this passengers actions/behavior played a big factor.

Agreed. We're hearing one side.

Lightsaber

bgm · Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:21 pm

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 41):
My goodness, we have airlines that ban entire religions and nary a peep.

And which airlines would these be?

fallap · Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:23 pm

Cases like these make me regret not studying law at the university.

copter808 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:33 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 31):
No, Muslims want nothing more than being treated like any other passenger, shocking request i know.

And they SHOULD be treated the same as anyone else.

Quoting mariner (Reply 35):
In this particular case, no.

I guess you didn't read the article, or you missed the part where police asked the f/a if there was any reason the woman should be taken off the flight, and the f/a said "no."

The fa/s then said she "didn't feel comfortable" wth the woman not he flight.

"When police asked the flight attendant at the gate if there was any reason why Ms Abdulle had been taken off the plane, the flight attendant replied “No” and that she “not feel comfortable” with the passenger."

That's all it takes, apparently.

I'll bet the police officers rolled their eyes at that comment, but it's not their call whether or not the passenger stays. Bet it was talked about at the next roll call--and not in a good light!

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 36):
I think some people recently have been emboldened by the remarks of political figures, which could escalate tensions or increase these types of disruptions.

And that "political figure" should be smart enough to think about what he says.

longhauler · Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:46 pm

In my opinion, if American carriers want to pretend that they are "World Class", they better start realizing that the world exists outside of the United States.

[Edited 2016-04-17 16:09:53 by 777ER]

PDX88 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:03 pm

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 41):
original poster put the fuel to the flame.

Sounds like you're not so much upset with the situation as you are that this is about Southwest. You don't need to get defensive against me just because this happened on your favorite airline. I still said in my original post there's always 2 sides to the story, what the media posts and what really happened. These removal of passenger incidents are never as innocent as the passenger and media lets on.

Classa64 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:10 pm

Would the Captain have had the ultimate authority to say she can stay? This whole situation is nuts.

blueflyer · Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:21 pm

Quoting Classa64 (Reply 50):
Would the Captain have had the ultimate authority to say she can stay? This whole situation is nuts.

The captain can't force the crew to stay on the aircraft. If a crew member really wants someone off, the captain is not likely to object, because the crew member might walk off instead and the flight is cancelled or delayed for insufficient crew.

denverdanny · Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:56 pm

Don't know the whole story. Perhaps the customer had asked some questions or done other things at some point that made the attendant more conscious of the customer's behavior. She may have not given an adequate response to a question, such as why she moved.

I think we should continue to ask people to be vigilant. I think after years of a relaxed attitude that led to some disasters, it's good to see more vigilance. However, I think there are those times when you can't let paranoia get into your head. There's a balance to be found.

Anyway, it's always a good idea to just talk to someone before any kind of serious action. There shouldn't be a disconnect between a customer's action and an escalation resulting in removal. There should be an understanding established, and then a warning of some sort, if not a couple for those who are more lenient, before a final action.

[Edited 2016-04-17 10:14:08]

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