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seahawk
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:36 pm

I think both cases can not be compared. In the first case another passenger set the ball in motion and to be honest nobody would or should ignore a passenger who tells you "I am fluent in Arabic and this guy was talking in Arabic on the phone and mentioned ISIS".

The second incident however seems to be started by the FA alone. The other passenger seems to have had no problems at all.
 
WPIAeroGuy
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:57 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 149):
Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 148):
Man, all of you judging an airline with thousands of employees based on the actions a few...you sound just like the people you're condemning. Do you not see the hypocrisy?

No, I think most are condemning the stone wall response by Southwest to both incidents.

And how do you know if that response is appropriate or not without knowing exactly what happened? My guess is that both situations are far more complex and nuanced that initially reported. This means that if WN tried to actually explain the situation, it would be taken out of context and sound bytes plastered everywhere. They figured it was probably better to avoid the discussion altogether than to release a detailed he-said, she-said report.

Quote:
Ms Abdulle asked why she could not switch. The flight attendant did not adequately respond and asked her to get off the plane. When police asked the flight attendant at the gate if there was any reason why Ms Abdulle had been taken off the plane, the flight attendant replied “No” and that she “not feel comfortable” with the passenger.

Notice how the only thing in actual quotes is the "No" and "not feel comfortable"? While it attempts to paint the picture that the woman was removed from the flight because she made the flight attendant uncomfortable, that's not what actually was said.

Heck, that paragraph doesn't even make sense as reported, because the FA gave "making her uncomfortable" as a reason. I think these conversations are not being portrayed as they actually happened, and the actual quotes would probably shed a lot more light into what happened.

Notice how WN's response, which is quoted, says:

"Information available, collected at the time of the event, indicates that our employees followed proper procedures in response to this customer's actions while onboard the aircraft. Out of respect for the customer's privacy, we will not share specifics about her conduct or travel experience. "

So in WN's eyes she did something that warranted the FA's response. Sounds like they don't want to be seen as attacking Ms Abdulle so they're instead choosing to not comment.
-WPIAeroGuy
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:09 pm

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 148):
the woman who reported him also spoke Arabic. Now I know everyone is assuming its a white woman who reported him

No, the WN employee was the one who spoke Arabic and not the woman.
{ Makhzoomi said an Arabic-speaking Southwest employee came and escorted him off the plane and asked him why he had been speaking Arabic.}
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:50 pm

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 151):
Notice how WN's response, which is quoted, says:

"Information available, collected at the time of the event, indicates that our employees followed proper procedures in response to this customer's actions while onboard the aircraft. Out of respect for the customer's privacy, we will not share specifics about her conduct or travel experience. "

So in WN's eyes she did something that warranted the FA's response. Sounds like they don't want to be seen as attacking Ms Abdulle so they're instead choosing to not comment.

Of course they say that, acknowledging fault could be bad in case of a lawsuit. WN is very simple protecting itself.
 
WPIAeroGuy
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:06 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 152):

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 148):
the woman who reported him also spoke Arabic. Now I know everyone is assuming its a white woman who reported him

No, the WN employee was the one who spoke Arabic and not the woman.

Two separate people. An Arabic-speaking (or at least knew a few words/phrases) passenger overheard the man, who was escorted off the plane to speak to an Arabic-speaking WN employee. Per the CNN article the woman thought she heard him say Martyr. Meaning it wasn't just that he was speaking Arabic in general, it was what specifically what he actually said.This was reported in the other thread, which appears to have been deleted. Now was it probably a misunderstanding, yes. But it sounds like it was at least based on what she thought was a legitimate concern.

In college the fire department showed up twice to our apartment building because the steam from the showers was setting off the particle detectors. The fire department knew this was the case, and we even let them know the next time it happened what the situation was. They said it didn't matter, they had to show up to an alarm, and they wouldn't disable or disarm that particular detector. Anyone that cooks poorly knows that smoke detectors go off primarily for innocuous reasons. However statistics don't allow to just shrug your shoulders and say "its probably nothing" simply because it usually is. In our case, the FD had a duty to respond to each one (with trucks and gear) because you never know if one could be real. I think this is the case of what happened here, at least to the guy. Someone made a comment to the FA, which could have appeared as a serious threat. It's not the FA's job to determine if someone is a threat, so she elevated it to law enforcement, so did their due diligence in determining he wasn't a threat. It's a sh*tty situation, but not something WN needs to be condemned for.
-WPIAeroGuy
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:13 pm

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 154):

The women heard him say INSHALLAH or God willing, of course Fox added ISIS, but at no time there is a mention that the woman spoke or understood Arabic.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
goacom
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:16 pm

While no one is claiming that all the staff of SW are racists, the fact that its management is closing ranks with its employees who committed these vile acts, only reinforces my sentiment that I will never fly this airline if I have other choices - regardless of price. Based on what I have seen on social media, I know that there are tens of thousands like me who have come to a similar conclusion. OTH, I'm sure there are whole bunch of "security minded" bigots who will specifically choose this airline just because of these actions. To each, his own!
 
BiggerJetsPlz
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:35 pm

I'd love to see an 'alternate universe' thread from back on a Sept 11 2001 where no attacks happened.

"United and AA remove group of Muslim men from multiple flights"

It would be amusing to see all of the replies about how racist and bigoted UA/AA employees are.
 
art
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:14 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 152):
{ Makhzoomi said an Arabic-speaking Southwest employee came and escorted him off the plane and asked him why he had been speaking Arabic.}

To ask someone why they were speaking their language is - to me - quite extraordinary. What else do you expect someone to talk?
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:16 pm

Quoting BiggerJetsPlz (Reply 157):

Trust me, all Muslims will be applauding this action, after all over a billion Muslim are still suffering from that criminal action.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:41 pm

Interesting read. From the article:

LA Times - How airlines decide when to kick a passenger off a plane


Although social media makes it seem as if passenger ejections happen all the time, Federal Aviation Administration data show that airlines reported unruly passengers on only 82 flights in 2015 out of about 9.6 million flights a year. That number peaked in 2004 at 310 reports.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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bgm
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:42 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 159):
Trust me, all Muslims will be applauding this action, after all over a billion Muslim are still suffering from that criminal action.

  

Unfortunately the US has a shameful history of persecuting those who are "different" (read: not white Christians). Look at what happened to the Japanese-Americans during WW2, Native Americans, African Americans, Chinese railroad workers, the list goes on...

Quoting BiggerJetsPlz (Reply 157):
I'd love to see an 'alternate universe' thread from back on a Sept 11 2001 where no attacks happened.

"United and AA remove group of Muslim men from multiple flights"

It would be amusing to see all of the replies about how racist and bigoted UA/AA employees are.

Right, so because of a handful of terrorists, you want to profile/remove/discriminate against 1 BILLION+ people of a certain faith?

By your logic:

- any white American male must be removed from the aircraft because they might have a gun.
- anyone with an Irish accent or speaking Gaelic must be removed because they might be associated with the IRA.
- Priests are not allowed to sit near children in case they abuse them.
- all Basque speakers (heck, just to be safe, include French and Spanish too), sorry, the exit's this way, off you go.

I sincerely hope that these people who've been kicked off the flight take Southwest to the cleaners. Money talks.



[Edited 2016-04-20 11:45:40]
Really? Four more years of this?
 
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bgm
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:43 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 160):
Interesting read. From the article:

LA Times - How airlines decide when to kick a passenger off a plane


Although social media makes it seem as if passenger ejections happen all the time, Federal Aviation Administration data show that airlines reported unruly passengers on only 82 flights in 2015 out of about 9.6 million flights a year. That number peaked in 2004 at 310 reports.

You're missing the point. It's not the *number* of people kicked off, it's the *reason* behind it.
Really? Four more years of this?
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:20 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 162):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 160):Interesting read. From the article:

LA Times - How airlines decide when to kick a passenger off a plane


Although social media makes it seem as if passenger ejections happen all the time, Federal Aviation Administration data show that airlines reported unruly passengers on only 82 flights in 2015 out of about 9.6 million flights a year. That number peaked in 2004 at 310 reports.
You're missing the point. It's not the *number* of people kicked off, it's the *reason* behind it.

Actually, you're missing the point; not all of those 82 reports of unruly passengers involved people of Muslim faith.

I'm unsure why you're so eager to find racism when it's clearly not a rampant issue when it comes to removal from an airliner.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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mariner
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:51 pm

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 148):
Also, and now this is a Fox News article so take it with a grain of salt, but they reported he mentioned ISIS in his conversation.

I don't think there's any argument about that - he did mention Islamic State in his phone to his uncle - he said he did. From the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/17/us...oved-southwest-airlines-plane.html

"......he called an uncle in Baghdad to tell him about an event he attended that included a speech by United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon.

He told his uncle about the chicken dinner they were served and the moment when he got to stand up and ask the secretary general a question about the Islamic State, he said.

But the conversation seemed troubling to a nearby passenger, who told the crew she overheard him making “potentially threatening comments,” the airline said in a statement."


So it becomes about context and what the complaint actually heard, or thought she did.

mariner
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DocLightning
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:23 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 164):

He told his uncle about the chicken dinner they were served and the moment when he got to stand up and ask the secretary general a question about the Islamic State, he said.

But the conversation seemed troubling to a nearby passenger, who told the crew she overheard him making “potentially threatening comments,” the airline said in a statement."

So when CNN talks about what IS is doing, should we be investigating them for terrorist threats?

No, simply mentioning a very real current event is not a terrorist threat. It's quite obvious that had he been white none of this would have happened.
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enzo011
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:59 pm

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 151):
Notice how the only thing in actual quotes is the "No" and "not feel comfortable"? While it attempts to paint the picture that the woman was removed from the flight because she made the flight attendant uncomfortable, that's not what actually was said.

Heck, that paragraph doesn't even make sense as reported, because the FA gave "making her uncomfortable" as a reason. I think these conversations are not being portrayed as they actually happened, and the actual quotes would probably shed a lot more light into what happened.

Notice how WN's response, which is quoted, says:

"Information available, collected at the time of the event, indicates that our employees followed proper procedures in response to this customer's actions while onboard the aircraft. Out of respect for the customer's privacy, we will not share specifics about her conduct or travel experience. "

So in WN's eyes she did something that warranted the FA's response. Sounds like they don't want to be seen as attacking Ms Abdulle so they're instead choosing to not comment.

Once again the question is why she was removed but the person that agreed to change seats wasn't? If she was uncomfortable with the passenger asking to change seats then you would expect the person who agreed to change to be removed as well as the action is what is causing the problem for the FA.
 
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bgm
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:00 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 163):
Actually, you're missing the point; not all of those 82 reports of unruly passengers involved people of Muslim faith.

You have no idea how many were of Muslim faith (or brown-skinned, which is what this really boils down to). But, for ANYONE to be removed because of their race, faith, or language spoken is discrimination. Even if it's just one, that's one too many. Clearer now?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 163):
I'm unsure why you're so eager to find racism when it's clearly not a rampant issue when it comes to removal from an airliner.

See above.
Really? Four more years of this?
 
NoTime
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:28 pm

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 166):
Once again the question is why she was removed but the person that agreed to change seats wasn't?

Could it be that the muslim woman argued with the FA, and the other person was willing to change back and comply with the FA's request?
 
WPIAeroGuy
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:39 pm

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 166):
Once again the question is why she was removed but the person that agreed to change seats wasn't? If she was uncomfortable with the passenger asking to change seats then you would expect the person who agreed to change to be removed as well as the action is what is causing the problem for the FA.

I agree. We dont know. Which is why I've simply been asking for more information. The whole story is bizarre, but instead of automatically assuming blantant racsim I think we should hear both sides of the story. I guess I'm the jerrk for not grabbing my pitchfork fast enough though.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 165):
So when CNN talks about what IS is doing, should we be investigating them for terrorist threats?

No, simply mentioning a very real current event is not a terrorist threat. It's quite obvious that had he been white none of this would have happened.

There are actually signs in airports that tell you not to joke to the TSA about certain topics. You bet your butt if you start making stupid comments you will attend very least get a stern talking to.

Now also realize that except for one other person, no one within earshot of tyhe man presumably spoke Arabic. They were relying on the eavesdropping of a single person, who may or may not be fluent, we don't know. Tell me, if you were an FA and a passenger said "This man is making threatening remarks" are you going to respond with "Well, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are peaceful, so just don't worry about it?" At the very least you'll find out what's going on. Now at this point I'm guessing this started to get heated, and the situation devolved from there. But we'll probably never know.
-WPIAeroGuy
 
coolian2
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:42 pm

Quoting NoTime (Reply 168):
Could it be that the muslim woman argued with the FA, and the other person was willing to change back and comply with the FA's request?

Ah excellent, an eyewitness.

Why did the FA have an issue with them switching seats in the first place? It's still NOT ASSIGNED SEATING.
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ElPistolero
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:53 pm

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 169):


I agree. We dont know. Which is why I've simply been asking for more information. The whole story is bizarre, but instead of automatically assuming blantant racsim I think we should hear both sides of the story. I guess I'm the jerrk for not grabbing my pitchfork fast enough though.


I think we're all waiting for WN to explain this incident. The fact that they haven't, and the fact that this lady hasn't been charged with anything suggests that they don't want to share that explanation.

The longer they leave this unaddressed, the more questions it raises about whether their actions were justified.
 
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mariner
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:54 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 165):
So when CNN talks about what IS is doing, should we be investigating them for terrorist threats?

It's all beyond me, mate, I'm just the messenger. I live in a country that has a remarkably harmonious relationship with its Muslim community.

Quoting NoTime (Reply 168):
Could it be that the muslim woman argued with the FA, and the other person was willing to change back and comply with the FA's request?

I imagine she offered an explanation as to why she wanted to move - she didn't want to sit in the middle seat between two men - but if the f/a was adamant that she couldn't switch seats, at what point does an explanation become an argument?

mariner
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Cerecl
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:03 am

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 169):
ell me, if you were an FA and a passenger said "This man is making threatening remarks" are you going to respond with "Well, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are peaceful, so just don't worry about it?" At the very least you'll find out what's going on.

The problem with this scenario is the person who makes the accusation automatically gets more of a say in this "I said you heard" situation. The accused has no way of defending himself/herself without being deplaned therefore is almost at the mercy of the accuser who may be an Arabic linguist but far more likely is racist or harbours irrational fear. Surely the accuser should also be removed from the plane so that law-enforcement agents have a chance to hear both sides of the story? The accused without the accuser being present can simply say "I didn't say that they misheard" and unless he/she has a clearly suspicious history I can't imagine there is much police could do but letting him/her go.

One of my friends who is Palestinian (who does not keep a long beard and dresses modernly) once was in a flight in Australia during which he noted a old lady sitting nearby kept looking at him and another Indian passenger. Sure enough she spoke to the flight attendant and before long my friend and the other unfortunate passenger found themselves being accompanied off the airplane. Surely there is a way of preventing this kind of blatant racial profiling so that bigots and racists do not get rewarded? You can be sure that old lady will feel encouraged to try to kick off anyone that doesn't have the same skin colour as her that she happens not to like next time she flies.


[Edited 2016-04-20 17:07:24]
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art
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:40 am

The agreed facts are these, are they not:

1 Passengers are entitled to sit where they will according to a company rule

2 Two passengers agreed where they would both sit

3 A company employee unilaterally ignored the company rule

4 A customer was refused carriage after the customer queried the company employee ignoring the company rule

It would be interesting to see what defence the airline would offer in a court of law if accused of wrongly denying carriage to the customer concerned.
 
NoTime
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:43 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 170):
Ah excellent, an eyewitness.

Alright, chief - maybe you need to take a step back from this one for a while. Why in the world would you say "an eyewitness" when my post was obviously posed as a question... as in a possibility? Surely your determination to prove your own opinion incontrovertible doesn't somehow ruin your reading comprehension?

The whole point of that post is to show that we don't know what happened. I don't know. The people defending the FA don't know, and the people wailing and gnashing their teeth about some perceived bigotry certainly don't know.

Quote:
Why did the FA have an issue with them switching seats in the first place? It's still NOT ASSIGNED SEATING.


I'm sure I don't have to actually keep repeating this, but "nobody knows." That's the whole point. People have built up this entire imaginary situation and outcome based on a single account of what happened.

The bottom line is that if this muslim woman was the victim of some form of bigotry, her lawyer and CAIR's lawyers will make sure she is justly compensated for her trouble. Does that make it ok? Of course not. But until we have some more facts or a court ruling, everything in this thread is nothing more than speculation of people trying to prove they are right.

Relax, and don't become so invested in the situation that you start deliberately misreading the intentions of other people on this forum.
 
coolian2
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:52 am

Quoting NoTime (Reply 175):
Relax, and don't become so invested in the situation that you start deliberately misreading the intentions of other people on this forum.

I've posted on this subject once?

Twice if we include the thread about the other WN deboarding where I made an obscure language joke that two people got.
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art
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:11 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 176):
I've posted on this subject once?

Twice if we include the thread about the other WN deboarding where I made an obscure language joke that two people got.

Make that 3.  
 
coolian2
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:31 am

Quoting art (Reply 177):
Make that 3.  

Hush lol.

Oops that's four now. I must be hysterical over this.
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EA CO AS
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:37 am

Quoting bgm (Reply 167):
for ANYONE to be removed because of their race, faith, or language spoken is discrimination

I agree. I'm just not convinced that's occurring here.

Quoting bgm (Reply 167):
Even if it's just one, that's one too many.

While I agree that one is too many, it doesn't warrant the hand-wringing, "OHMYGAWDTHESEAIRLINESAREALLRACISTS!" reactions from the group here.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
WPIAeroGuy
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:02 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 179):

Quoting bgm (Reply 167):
for ANYONE to be removed because of their race, faith, or language spoken is discrimination

I agree. I'm just not convinced that's occurring here.

Quoting bgm (Reply 167):
Even if it's just one, that's one too many.

While I agree that one is too many, it doesn't warrant the hand-wringing, "OHMYGAWDTHESEAIRLINESAREALLRACISTS!" reactions from the group here.

  
-WPIAeroGuy
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1757
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:07 am

Quoting art (Reply 174):
The agreed facts are these, are they not:

1 Passengers are entitled to sit where they will according to a company rule

2 Two passengers agreed where they would both sit

3 A company employee unilaterally ignored the company rule

4 A customer was refused carriage after the customer queried the company employee ignoring the company rule

It would be interesting to see what defence the airline would offer in a court of law if accused of wrongly denying carriage to the customer concerned.

#1 is a fact. #2 is an inference. #3 is your opinion (i doubt you know what the employee did or what the company rule is). #4 is one side of the story.

Facts in your head doesn't make them true or correct.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
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enzo011
Posts: 1903
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RE: Muslim Woman Removed From WN Flight At MDW

Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:51 am

Quoting NoTime (Reply 168):
Could it be that the muslim woman argued with the FA, and the other person was willing to change back and comply with the FA's request?

Could be, you would think the reporting would then state that an argument ensued with the FA when they spoke to the police though. Again this is an assumption of the person writing the story being fair though. It may be that they have an agenda as well, but then you would have to have 2 people that may not know each other conspiring against WN to embarrass the FA and company. Or, it just could be a simple case of discrimination against woman because she is a Muslim. I do hope we get all the details about what happened here.

Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 169):
I agree. We dont know. Which is why I've simply been asking for more information. The whole story is bizarre, but instead of automatically assuming blantant racsim I think we should hear both sides of the story. I guess I'm the jerrk for not grabbing my pitchfork fast enough though.

I don't know if grabbing a pitchfork is the way to go, yet the recent history of the US and Islam has not been great though. For myself in that instance the rush not to condemn the FA and WN, if true and the actual defense on their part seems a little bizarre. If this was someone who were black/Jewish and the quotes were, "they made me uncomfortable", I would feel the same way. Its not looking great for the FA or WN.

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos