BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

readytotaxi · Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:27 pm

I have read that BA are planning to reduce Club availability to Florida and the Carib out of GatPort Airwick.
On the 3 class 777's they plan to remove the current second demi cabin,rows 10-11,16 seats, and replace with WT+
24 seats, keeping the current 24 for a total of 48.
The average fare LGW-MCO in Club is a ball parking £2500 multiply 16 generates £40,000 round trip.
The average fare in WT+ is £1275 multiply 24 generates only £30,600
Why reduce your possible earnings by almost £10,000?
It's quite possible I have misunderstood the refit plan.

LJ · Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:32 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
The average fare LGW-MCO in Club is a ball parking £2500 multiply 16 generates £40,000 round trip.
The average fare in WT+ is £1275 multiply 24 generates only £30,600
Why reduce your possible earnings by almost £10,000?

You assume that BA sells all the Club seats. However, if they don't then selling WT+ seats may generate more than the revenue from Club. Given this news I would guess that loadfactors on these leisure routes aren't that high.

migair54 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:35 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
Why reduce your possible earnings by almost £10,000?

most probably is because the average load in business is too low and most of the times that seats go empty, and they have more demand for WT+, airlines carefully monitor all of that. Same they have no First, lack of demand.
Maybe being some of that routes basically tourist oriented they are not filling the front cabin.

rutankrd · Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:46 pm

Probably need to consider the avios awards and redemptions associated with the raw figure to come close to the yield potential.

Reduced awards from the combination of available club seats, equally reduced redemption values as fewer Club seats will be redeemable for earned avios points !

The other end World Tourist upgrades add value .

Finally lower risks of the need to upgrade when loads are high in the back of the bus.

Its simply classically reducing the value of awards "bribes" earned

Bongodog1964 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:51 pm

In my experience the cw seats aren't going empty. They are however a few years back my wife was offered an upgrade from wtp+ to cw at MCO check in for 250gbp. On that basis it appears they try and sell the upgrades, if they can't sell them they give them away in order to clear seats in wt as they are consistently overselling that cabin.

On that basis the cabin mods give an extra 8 seats with a resultant extra income of 10k

APYu · Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:50 pm

The average J fare to Orlando is not £2.5k. As most are holiday makers, many are sold at the leisure fares of around £1600.

TC957 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:00 pm

Quoting APYu (Reply 5):
The average J fare to Orlando is not £2.5k. As most are holiday makers, many are sold at the leisure fares of around £1600.

The fare in Club is currently £2275 plus taxes return, agent's consol and IT fare will shave a bit off that but not to the level you're saying.

vv701 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:07 pm

Does anyone know if the plan to reconfigure the cabins of LGW based 772s is limited to the five frames, G-VIIO, 'IP, 'IR, 'IT and 'IU? These 772s are currently configured foe 283 passengers (J40 / W24 / Y219). They operate the majority of flights to the Caribbean and to MCO and TPA. However they are only half of BA's LGW based 772s.

The other five BA 772s operating from LGW are in two sub-fleets. Three frames, currently G-VIIV, 'VW and 'VY, are configured for 226 passengers (F14 / J48 / W40 / Y124). I believe they are dedicated to operating the rotations between LGW and BDA, BGI and UVF.

The second sub-fleet of two 772s, currently G-YMMS and 'MR are configured for 275 passengers (J48 / W24 / Y203). These aircraft also have an overhead crew rest area. They are dedicated to operating to the Indian Ocean, serving MLE and MRS. They could also be reconfigured with a smaller J Class cabin.

'IU was reconfigured to a total of 283 passenger seats as recently as February last year increasing that sub-fleet to five aircraft.

I would think BA would likely continue to serve both BDA and BGI with aircraft configured with a high number of premium seats. After all BGI was a Winter Timetable Concorde destination served from LHR.

If BA only reconfigure the Caribbean and Florida Fleet and possibly the sub-fleet flying to the Indian Ocean to a higher density I think a sixth frame will be added to the Caribbean and Florida sub-fleet to operate the UVF flight (which has an add-on to GND or POS depending on the day of the week).

readytotaxi · Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:25 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
Does anyone know if the plan to reconfigure the cabins of LGW based 772s is limited to the five frames, G-VIIO, 'IP, 'IR, 'IT and 'IU?

I seem to recall it was just these 5 mentioned in the business plan.

richardw · Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:41 pm

Which aicrcraft will operate to CPT, LIM and JFK?

Are leisure travellers on east-west routes also more likely to book WT+ going west and Club going east?

[Edited 2016-04-17 11:07:43]

readytotaxi · Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:10 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 9):
Which aicrcraft will operate to CPT, LIM and JFK?

None of these route are currently operated out of LGW.

richardw · Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:20 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 10):

Yes, am aware of "not currently operated"

TedToToe · Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:25 pm

Presumably, CPT and LIM will require the crew rest, so another G-YMMx to transfer from LHR?

rutankrd · Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:36 pm

JFK - Has no First available so is a 77E GE engine frame service (BTW this may be a JFK slot sitter - They have one slot down north of the river after returning it to AA)

CPT - Will be a crew rest 77E RR either G-YMMR or S

LIM - No first available either

GSTBA · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:42 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
Does anyone know if the plan to reconfigure the cabins of LGW based 772s is limited to the five frames, G-VIIO, 'IP, 'IR, 'IT and 'IU? These 772s are currently configured foe 283 passengers (J40 / W24 / Y219). They operate the majority of flights to the Caribbean and to MCO and TPA. However they are only half of BA's LGW based 772s.

The other five BA 772s operating from LGW are in two sub-fleets. Three frames, currently G-VIIV, 'VW and 'VY, are configured for 226 passengers (F14 / J48 / W40 / Y124). I believe they are dedicated to operating the rotations between LGW and BDA, BGI and UVF.

The second sub-fleet of two 772s, currently G-YMMS and 'MR are configured for 275 passengers (J48 / W24 / Y203). These aircraft also have an overhead crew rest area. They are dedicated to operating to the Indian Ocean, serving MLE and MRS. They could also be reconfigured with a smaller J Class cabin.

'IU was reconfigured to a total of 283 passenger seats as recently as February last year increasing that sub-fleet to five aircraft.

The following details regarding the 777 reconfiguration program can be found on page 86 of IAG's 2015 Capital Markets Day Presentation

http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=240949&p=irol-presentations

Gatwick B777-200s to be reconfigured with 10% more seats (smaller Club cabin) better suited for leisure markets. The aircraft that will be reconfigured are G-VIIO, P, R, T & U. As previously mentioned the reconfigured aircraft will have 10% more seats compared to the current 283 (40J/24W/219Y). I have heard that the new cabin will be configured with 310 seats (24J/40W/246Y)

Heathrow B777-200ERs to be converted from 4-class (12F/48J/32W/127Y) to 3-class with 25% more seats. The aircraft are the 9 RR powered aircraft G-YMMG, H, I, J, K, L, N, O and P. BA will use the 787-9's to replace these aircraft on the few long range routes were a first market exists

It is unclear if these aircraft will be configured (48J/24W/203Y) the same as the current G-YMMx registered 3 class aircraft. Or if the aircraft will get a different configuration possibly 32J/40W/203Y

According to the presentation by doing this BA will be driving higher revenue per aircraft by re-configuring cabins to serve markets which have lower premium demand

[Edited 2016-04-17 16:12:49]

LAX772LR · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:57 pm

So what then will the J count actually be, if this takes place?

GSTBA · Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:06 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 15):
So what then will the J count actually be, if this takes place?

G-VIIO, P, R, T & U - Will go from 40J to 24J

G-YMMG to P - Will have there cabins reconfigured from the current 12F/48J/32W/127Y layout to 48J/24W/203Y

cedarjet · Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:07 pm

BA ain't getting close to £2.5k for MCO in J, that may be a published fare and someone might pay it some of the time but the usual mix is a bunch of £1.5k revenue fares, some oneworld reward tickets, a few who have paid $500 to upgrade at check in, the captain's wife, and a few gold and silver Exec Club cardholders from WT+ which was oversold. Another words, trash yields. Makes sense to refit the plane with more Y seats which do sell.

DolphinAir747 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:24 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
After all BGI was a Winter Timetable Concorde destination served from LHR.

Why does BGI have such high yields/so much premium traffic? It seems to be a pattern with B6's J service there, and AC sending the 77L there before.

Viscount724 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:05 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 18):
Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
After all BGI was a Winter Timetable Concorde destination served from LHR.

Why does BGI have such high yields/so much premium traffic? It seems to be a pattern with B6's J service there, and AC sending the 77L there before.

BGI is an expensive, upscale leisure destination with many wealthy visitors who can easily afford premium class fares.

LAX772LR · Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:35 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 18):
Why does BGI have such high yields/so much premium traffic?

Ya gotta realize, much of the eastern Caribbean caters to a very different crowd than the "bucket&spade" or "sand&sandals" types who frequent the mass-market western islands.

The kind of folks who can and will spend 5 to 6 figures on a vacation, and think nothing of it.

Heck, BA seasonally flew scheduled Concorde service to BGI, typically with 20seats blocked; and yet it STILL brought in the revenue that they wanted, as that flight returned year after year, all the way until the aircraft was retired.

That should tell you the kind of yields that the eastern islands can pull.

DolphinAir747 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:40 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 20):
Ya gotta realize, much of the eastern Caribbean caters to a very different crowd than the "bucket&spade" or "sand&sandals" types who frequent the mass-market western islands.

That's interesting- curious how that came about!

AAMDanny · Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:08 am

A large portion of the J seats at the front end on BA at LGW are full of Staff on J-Standby tickets. I'm sure they have done the maths and realised they would sell more full revenue seats in Y/W. To be totally honest I'm surprised they have not opted for a 10 abreast Y product from LGW.

Bongodog1964 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:29 am

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 22):
To be totally honest I'm surprised they have not opted for a 10 abreast Y product from LGW.

BA have "been there, seen it done it got the tee shirt" on that score. Three of these birds were delivered new to LGW with 10 abreast in Y, that plus the fact they were operated for BA by Flying Colours, resulted in deep customer dissatisfaction, a refit to 9 abreast and crewing by BA staff.

migair54 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:31 am

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 22):
To be totally honest I'm surprised they have not opted for a 10 abreast Y product from LGW.

I am also surprise, specially when they decide 3-3-3 on B787, but I think maybe the cost of doing it it's what keep them still on 9 config. Maybe they could add Tanzania back from LGW, lot of tourist and some good premium pax also.

What are all the routes we are talking about apart from MCO??

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 14):
Heathrow B777-200ERs to be converted from 4-class (12F/48J/32W/127Y) to 3-class with 25% more seats. The aircraft are the 9 RR powered aircraft G-YMMG, H, I, J, K, L, N, O and P. BA will use the 787-9's to replace these aircraft on the few long range routes were a first market exists

Makes sense to start replacing the old B772ER with new generation B789, much better economics and better product, I don't know when but maybe BA should have introduce a new Business class seats and configuration with the B787. When was the current seats introduce?? with that 2-4-2 in the B777.

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 14):
According to the presentation by doing this BA will be driving higher revenue per aircraft by re-configuring cabins to serve markets which have lower premium demand

They must have done a very deep study and decide, as stated before, some seats even in full are from miles upgrades, staff... so that in non revenue for that seat and you can increase the number of economy and make even better profit.

steve6666 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:27 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 24):
I don't know when but maybe BA should have introduce a new Business class seats and configuration with the B787. When was the current seats introduce?? with that 2-4-2 in the B777.

Well the 2-4-2 layout in J has been going since the 2000 Club World flat bed; what's currently in the 777 fleet is the 2006 evolution of that seat. I seem to recall something on here saying the A350s will have a new J class seat, but the leaked design drawings seemed to imply something of similar density to the current layout was the intention then. I agree with you, BA's seat lags behind the competition, but they still manage to sell them. The 2015 Capital Markets presentation said to "watch this space" for details of the A350 seating config, so I guess the message is see what is in the 2016 CM presentation.

skipness1E · Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:47 am

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
The average fare LGW-MCO in Club is a ball parking £2500 multiply 16 generates £40,000 round trip.

Depends how much of the passengers are redeeming Avios. Gatwick is redemption heavy so they're cutting back reward availability to expand paid for in other classes.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 20):
The kind of folks who can and will spend 5 to 6 figures on a vacation, and think nothing of it.

That's not what happens here though, which is why they're restricing the capacity.

vv701 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:32 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 23):
Three of these birds were delivered new to LGW with 10 abreast in Y, that plus the fact they were operated for BA by Flying Colours, resulted in deep customer dissatisfaction, a refit to 9 abreast and crewing by BA staff.

These three aircraft were delivered configured for 383 passengers (J28 / Y355). The first trans-Atlantic flight by any 777 with 10 abreast Y seats was operated by BA's G-VIIO (LGW-TPA, BA4517) on 1 February 1999.

Unpopularity resulted in this and the then two other high-density 772s being quickly reconfigured. Total seating was reduced in mid 2000 to 334 (J42 / Y292) with a 3-3-3 configured Y cabin.

Before the start of Summer Season 2005 these three aircraft were again reconfigured. A W Class cabin featured in the revised 280 seat configuration (J40 / W24 / M219).

Quoting migair54 (Reply 24):
maybe BA should have introduce a new Business class seats and configuration with the B787. When was the current seats introduce??

The second generation BA lie-flat J Class seat was launched on 8 May 2008.

readytotaxi · Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:43 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 24):
What are all the routes we are talking about apart from MCO??

There is Kingston,Bridgetown,Antigua,St. Lucia,Port of Spain, Tampa and Bermuda.

jumpjets · Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:26 pm

Whenever the question of LGW longhaul routes crops up I always wonder why BDA is at LGW and not LHR as whilst I am sure there is plenty of tourist trade to BDA it is a more premium route with all the financial institutions on the island - which is reflected in it being a 4 class 777 service.

I have always supposed that it must be mostly O&D traffic to BDA and the lack of connections is not such an issue.

DolphinAir747 · Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:30 pm

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 29):
Whenever the question of LGW longhaul routes crops up I always wonder why BDA is at LGW and not LHR as whilst I am sure there is plenty of tourist trade to BDA it is a more premium route with all the financial institutions on the island - which is reflected in it being a 4 class 777 service.

I have always supposed that it must be mostly O&D traffic to BDA and the lack of connections is not such an issue.

I think since BA has a monopoly on most of these routes they can get away with using a less convenient airport.

vv701 · Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:40 pm

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 29):
I have always supposed that it must be mostly O&D traffic to BDA and the lack of connections is not such an issue.

I think you have solved your own query here. While it is undoubtedly true that LGW is more of a holiday airport than is LHR it is misleading to think of it as solely a holiday airport just as it is wrong to think of LHR as solely a business airport and hub.

As I have mentioned before BGI was served by Concorde up until its last days. To mark this G-BOAE is today parked undercover at BGI under the banner 'The Barbados Concorde Experience'.

So what makes the likes of BDA and BGI different to long-haul destinations served by BA from LHR? As you surmise they are strictly British O&D destinations. So with several of the provincial UK airports served from LHR also served from LGW and some European airports like AMS, BCN, FCO and GVA also connected by BA to both there are some opportunities for transfer traffic. But there can be little doubt that neither BDA or BGI are significant destinations for those starting their journey in Continental Europe.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 30):
I think since BA has a monopoly on most of these routes they can get away with using a less convenient airport.

No. VS operates to many destinations in the Caribbean and Florida also served by BA. If we take the example of BGI, VS029 is an A 330 flight operating LGW-BGI. If BA are looking for a monopoly they should operate some of their Carribean and Florida flights like BGI 40 miles up the road to LHR.

APYu · Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:23 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 6):

Sale just finished, its on sale most of the year - last few have been around the £1699 mark

BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

RE: BA LGW Reduced Club Cabin On Leisure 777's

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