Airbus Poised To Win Delta Deal For 30+ A321's

chiad · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:21 pm

Bloomberg reports
"Airbus Said Poised to Win Delta Deal for at Least 30 A321 Jets"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...lta-deal-for-at-least-30-a321-jets

So it seems that the Delta's planned narrowbody replacement with will go partially to Airbus.

deltal1011man · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:27 pm

Rumor mill says they might have V2500s on them not CFM56-5Bs also.

LSZH34 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:31 pm

Are we talking about NEO's or CEO's? Are these additional 30 aircraft to the 40 already ordered?

johns624 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:31 pm

I'm glad Airbus won it. I'd hate to have Boeing "win" an order for some 321's...

gilesdavies · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:33 pm

Marvellous news, the airline must be very happy with the recently received new A321's that have just joined the fleet, to place this top-up order!

I was secretly hoping they might be launch customer of the A321neo LR, but going by this article they seem to be the bog standard A321neo's.

They seem to really have taken a liking to Airbus in the last 18-24 months, before that only having the inherited NW Airbus fleet.

TheRedBaron · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:35 pm

I bet DL wants this A321 Fleet to compete with Jet Blue mint product and have some capacity growth, but lets wait for the announcement on the order ...

TRB

jfklganyc · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:38 pm

Gotta hand it to Airbus...this plane is on a roll!

deltal1011man · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:39 pm

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 2):

Are we talking about NEO's or CEO's? Are these additional 30 aircraft to the 40 already ordered?

CEOs

Quoting johns624 (Reply 3):

I'm glad Airbus won it. I'd hate to have Boeing "win" an order for some 321's...

Boeing just won a 20 frame order not that long ago for 739s.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 4):
Marvellous news, the airline must be very happy with the recently received new A321's that have just joined the fleet, to place this top-up order!

all one of them that isn't flying yet IIRC.

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 5):

huh? DL already has a fleet that competes with mint. 18 757s and they also use international 767s and even A330s.

DL isn't going to roll out DeltaOne on any more domestic routes than it seeing. (JFK-LAX/SFO and 1 or 2 JFK-SEA flights)
They said as much on the Q1 earnings call.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 4):

I was secretly hoping they might be launch customer of the A321neo LR, but going by this article they seem to be the bog standard A321neo's.

The article didn't say anything about NEOs

LAX772LR · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:40 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 1):
Rumor mill says they might have V2500s on them not CFM56-5Bs also.

Interesting. Don't think V2500s have the better longer-distance performance?

I wonder if this is possibly indicative of a dedicated transcon subfleet?

rta · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:44 pm

The A321 really seems like a great aircraft for Delta's network. I'm glad they're adding more.

deltal1011man · Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:44 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 8):

I wonder if this is possibly indicative of a dedicated transcon subfleet?

rumor mill also says they will aux tanks installed. (but like I said above, they will have the normal DL domestic product on them, not replacements for the 75S)

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 8):

Interesting. Don't think V2500s have the better longer-distance performance?

IIRC better fuel burn at cruise than the CFM56 but the CFM56 have lower maintenance costs and better fuel burn at take off. (again, IIRC)

flyabr · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:20 pm

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 2):
Are these additional 30 aircraft to the 40 already ordered?

DL currently has 45 A321s on order.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 1):
Rumor mill says they might have V2500s on them not CFM56-5Bs also.

That's interesting. Maybe the V2500 birds would be used on longer haul routes like DTW-PHX or say ATL-LAS?? Keep the CFM birds on shorter routes like MCO-ATL??

deltal1011man · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:22 pm

Quoting flyabr (Reply 11):

That's interesting. Maybe the V2500 birds would be used on longer haul routes like DTW-PHX or say ATL-LAS?? Keep the CFM birds on shorter routes like MCO-ATL??

Yeah. What i have heard is they will order these with V2500s and aux tanks so they can fly longer flights like the 739 and the 45 other will do shorter trunk flying, i.e. ATL-MCO/FLL/TPA/JAX etc.

MrHMSH · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:30 pm

Very interesting if true, and if the rumoured CSeries order comes about as well we have a very varied and flexible-looking DL fleet. The timing also interests me, have they already seen what the A321 does and decided to take more, or is that just coincidence and it's part of an overarching strategy?

UA444 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:43 pm

Great news. The 321 is a winner.

Okcflyer · Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:52 pm

I didn't think there were CEO slots open?

canyonblue17 · Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:08 pm

Is this another loss for Boeing because it did not develop a true 757 replacement?

9w748capt · Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:12 pm

Do they not teach the proper use of apostrophes anymore? Or should I say apostrophe's? Good Lord.

deltal1011man · Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:46 pm

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 16):

75 321 vs 120 739s

I wouldn't say Boeing is the loser here.

DL is going to buy from all 4 OEMs. Airbus will offer the best deal today, Boeing tomorrow, EMB the next and BBD the next.

Plus with almost 1000 mainline plus a big DCI fleet it is just simply impossible to buy from one OEM.

LAX772LR · Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:55 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 17):
Do they not teach the proper use of apostrophes anymore? Or should I say apostrophe's?

^THIS.
I guess they stopped in the '80s. Or should I say, 80's?

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 18):
I wouldn't say Boeing is the loser here.

For now....

RayChuang · Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:23 am

I wonder is this A321 order for one reason: replace the starting-to-age 757-200 fleet on longer routes on the DL system.

bucky707 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:11 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 20):
wonder is this A321 order for one reason: replace the starting-to-age 757-200 fleet on longer routes on the DL system.

The 757 fleet will be pretty stable for the next 5-10 years.

zeke · Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:21 am

Quoting bucky707 (Reply 21):
The 757 fleet will be pretty stable for the next 5-10 years.

They average age of the 757-200 fleet is 20 years, with some frames over 30 years old. I see any of the frames beyond 25 years could be replaced sooner rather than later, probably talking about 20-30 frames initially.

catiii · Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:35 am

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 4):
Marvellous news, the airline must be very happy with the recently received new A321's that have just joined the fleet, to place this top-up order!

You mean the one that they have that is still sitting at the hangar and hasn't flown a revenue flight yet? Thrilled I'm sure...

catiii · Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:39 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 20):

I wonder is this A321 order for one reason: replace the starting-to-age 757-200 fleet on longer routes on the DL system.

Different missions. The 321 is not a 757 replacement.

Quoting zeke (Reply 22):
They average age of the 757-200 fleet is 20 years, with some frames over 30 years old. I see any of the frames beyond 25 years could be replaced sooner rather than later, probably talking about 20-30 frames initially.

Have you met Delta? Age has never been an issue...

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 5):
I bet DL wants this A321 Fleet to compete with Jet Blue mint product and have some capacity growth, but lets wait for the announcement on the order ...

Doubtful, in as much as the Delta One product already competes with Mint.

mayor · Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:48 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 18):

Plus with almost 1000 mainline plus a big DCI fleet it is just simply impossible to buy from one OEM.

I'm showing my age, but I can remember when we had 173 a/c in the fleet and that included the Herky as well as the a/c we got with the NE merger.....

flyabr · Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:50 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 24):
Different missions. The 321 is not a 757 replacement.

DL's 752s still do a lot of missions like RSW-ATL. MSP-PHX. I'm sure the A321 is enough plane to cover some of those trips, while saving money.

zeke · Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:54 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 24):
Have you met Delta? Age has never been an issue...

Well they are looking at replacing their older MD-88s with CS300, and to phase out the 744 next year which contradicts that. If age was not an issue DL could have just purchased 30 second hand A321s from the market with lower CAPEX.

Motorhussy · Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:57 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 7):
Quoting johns624 (Reply 3):

I'm glad Airbus won it. I'd hate to have Boeing "win" an order for some 321's...

Boeing just won a 20 frame order not that long ago for 739s.

Umm, kinda missed the point, Boeing don't manufacture Airbuses.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 7):
The article didn't say anything about NEOs

Are there any A321ceo slots left available?

reltney · Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:12 am

Funny. The 321 needed major mods to come close to 757 performance. Why Boeing missed the opportunity to continue to rule this market is reason to fire those in charge.

Really sad.

BTW, I flown(as a pilot) both planes. No compariasons possible.

Nuff said and will not respond . Facts are facts. Flame away flamers....

MIflyer12 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:14 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 27):
Quoting catiii (Reply 24):
Have you met Delta? Age has never been an issue...

Well they are looking at replacing their older MD-88s with CS300, and to phase out the 744 next year which contradicts that. If age was not an issue DL could have just purchased 30 second hand A321s from the market with lower CAPEX.

It is a fact that DL has so many old aircraft that even a big order (far bigger than 30 A321s) wouldn't move the needle on average fleet age very much. Suppose they dumped 100 of the oldest MD-88s for 100 new xxx all delivered tomorrow. Compare average fleet age to avg fleet age for AA and UA: DL would still be oldest by several full years.

nikeherc · Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:18 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 17):
Do they not teach the proper use of apostrophes anymore? Or should I say apostrophe's? Good Lord.

The proper use for apostrophes is to indicate the possessive or a contraction. It is no to indicate plurals. i.e. John's baseball wasn't on the table. It dated from the 1960s. There were a number of 737s at the airport.

If you really want to fix a problem, go after there vs. their and your vs. you're.

dash400 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:20 am

I sure wish WE at United had the 321 - gosh, how I hate working on the 737s !!

MrHMSH · Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:26 am

Quoting reltney (Reply 29):
The 321 needed major mods to come close to 757 performance

The A321 won't ever touch a 757, but neither it nor the 739 need to to fly 90%+ of the 757's missions much cheaper. The simple fact is that of the 1050 757s built, only a few of those are used anywhere near their limit, and those will continue to fly. The A321 will do any mission below 6 hours easily, and the 739 will take its share of the flak. I know the 757 is sacred, but it's not godly. Unfortunately, bean counters rule the roost, not pilots. Sorry chief.

DocLightning · Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:31 am

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 4):

I was secretly hoping they might be launch customer of the A321neo LR, but going by this article they seem to be the bog standard A321neo's.

If they have A321 CEO, then getting NEOs is a minimal change. Most of the systems are the same; only the engines vary. So that opens the door to a future A321NEO/LR order if DL wants it.

Quoting reltney (Reply 29):
Funny. The 321 needed major mods to come close to 757 performance. Why Boeing missed the opportunity to continue to rule this market is reason to fire those in charge.

Because a re-winged 757 with 40,000 lb GTF engines would probably sport a range approaching 6,000 nmi.

Now, who the heck needs that kind of performance? Believe it or not, airlines don't want to fly a 752 from SFO to NRT. For flights that long, frequency becomes less important than efficiency.

coolian2 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:41 am

Quoting reltney (Reply 29):
Funny. The 321 needed major mods to come close to 757 performance. Why Boeing missed the opportunity to continue to rule this market is reason to fire those in charge.

Nobody was buying the 757.

Apart from additional fuel tank ability, much of what has changed in the A321 are simple weight savings and advances in engine technology. I won't include the sharklets as they apply to the entire Airbus narrowbody fleet.

What other major mods were there?

rj968 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:04 am

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 4):
They seem to really have taken a liking to Airbus in the last 18-24 months, before that only having the inherited NW Airbus fleet.

Delta had 30 Airbus A-310's 1991-95. 21 from Pan Am and 9 leased directly from AB.

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Photo © Brian Harrison

crownvic · Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:11 am

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 4):
Marvellous news, the airline must be very happy with the recently received new A321's that have just joined the fleet, to place this top-up order!

The a/c has not even entered service yet, so that is not a logical conclusion.

Quoting rta (Reply 9):
The A321 really seems like a great aircraft for Delta's network. I'm glad they're adding more.

Again, see above!

reltney · Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:15 am

Quoting rj968 (Reply 36):

Exactly! And did they get rid of them .... Yup!

LAX772LR · Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:21 am

Quoting reltney (Reply 29):
Funny. The 321 needed major mods to come close to 757 performance.

Not really. That, and 90%+ of the routes the 752 flies, an A321 from a decade ago could easily do.

Quoting reltney (Reply 29):
Why Boeing missed the opportunity to continue to rule this market is reason to fire those in charge.

.....and how many A321LR have been sold again?

You're acting as though Airbus is running away with some 1,000unit market, while forgetting that the 739ER captured quite a bit of former 752 capacity as well.

DocLightning · Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:23 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 35):

Nobody was buying the 757.

Apart from additional fuel tank ability, much of what has changed in the A321 are simple weight savings and advances in engine technology. I won't include the sharklets as they apply to the entire Airbus narrowbody fleet.

What other major mods were there?

Also, the A321LR has a payload-range curve that is very similar to the 752. The total maximum payload is marginally smaller but the range is 100nmi longer. The A321LR *is* the 752 replacement. A closer match does not exist.

Sorry 757NG fanboys, it's not happening.

Now, it is true that the A321 built today in 2016 is a far more capable aircraft than one built in 1998. That's because CFM and IAE have figured out how to make the engines more powerful. Airbus has figured out how to make the structure stronger without adding a bunch of weight. With all its models except the A340, Airbus has been quite adept at squeezing every last drop of performance out of the airframes they design over the production life of the aircraft. Consider that A330s now ply transpacific routes but the original A330 was designed for transatlantic service.

The A321LR will be able to carry almost the same payload a further distance than the 752 and it will do so on something like 25-30% less fuel per passenger because the fully-loaded aircraft is 50,000 lb lighter than the 752.

deltal1011man · Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:25 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 22):

the 757s that are staying don't need replacing. More importantly this order is a MD88 replacement. they are getting into the 30 year ball market thus being replaced.

20 years means nothing. if the 757 hasn't had its HMV5 it is staying.

Quoting mayor (Reply 25):

old man

*just kidding bud)

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):

Now, who the heck needs that kind of performance? Believe it or not, airlines don't want to fly a 752 from SFO to NRT. For flights that long, frequency becomes less important than efficiency.

DL and UA are both pushing Boeing for a 757 with GTFs.

DL isn't keeping almost 100 752s around because they like them, its simply because the 321 or 739 or 321NEO or 739MAX......just isn't a 757. DL is pushing for a real replacement not a 80% replacement.

Quoting rj968 (Reply 36):

Delta had 30 Airbus A-310's 1991-95. 21 from Pan Am and 9 leased directly from AB.

FWIW they sucked and DL replaced them pretty quick with 767s.

TheRedBaron · Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:33 am

Quoting reltney (Reply 29):
Nuff said and will not respond . Facts are facts. Flame away flamers....

Agree as much as Anet loves the 757, and countless threads about its early demise from production, none of th e current single aisle can touch it, the MEW is tons above the current offering by A and B.

Long live the 752..

TRB

deltal1011man · Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:36 am

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 42):

Agree as much as Anet loves the 757, and countless threads about its early demise from production, none of th e current single aisle can touch it, the MEW is tons above the current offering by A and B.

its "early" demise?

25-30 years is early?

uh no.

Francoflier · Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:38 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 23):
You mean the one that they have that is still sitting at the hangar and hasn't flown a revenue flight yet? Thrilled I'm sure...

They just look that pretty...

DocLightning · Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:38 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 41):

DL isn't keeping almost 100 752s around because they like them, its simply because the 321 or 739 or 321NEO or 739MAX......just isn't a 757. DL is pushing for a real replacement not a 80% replacement.

Then look again at the payload-range charts on the A321LR. It's a 97% replacement.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 41):

DL and UA are both pushing Boeing for a 757 with GTFs.

Source? And no, don't tell me to look it up. You made the claim.

migair54 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:55 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 45):
Source? And no, don't tell me to look it up. You made the claim.

even if true I see no chance for Boeing to have that plane flying in a timely manner, most of the B757 are planned or already replaced and most of the missions they have nowadays can be done with more economical planes like A321 or B739.

The A321 is an excellent plane and the development Airbus has done in the last years made it even better, I think I read here that many or SA)">DL A321 are for Florida routes so the range and high elevation performance is not that necessary.

I won't be surprise if in the future we see some A321LR in SA)">DL colours to operate some SA routes from ATL and even some trans Atlantic from NYC, it will be a very capable aircraft and economical, easy to introduce in SA)">DL fleet and with nice capacity, 192 pax in 3 class layout. It could be a great deal for SA)">DL.

How is the feed back of AA in the A321?? the cabin of the A321T looks great.

gatibosgru · Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:34 am

Quoting reltney (Reply 29):

No doubt about it, but to say the A321 can't do 90% of what the 757 currently does would be delusional.

The 757 will always be unique and in it's own league, I don't think anyone is trying to take that away from it by saying the A321 is a "replacement" in a lot of ways.

alfa164 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:47 am

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 31):
The proper use for apostrophes is to indicate the possessive or a contraction. It is no to indicate plurals. i.e. John's baseball wasn't on the table. It dated from the 1960s. There were a number of 737s at the airport.

Unfortunately, you are wrong. See Practical English Usage, 2nd Edition (Michael Swan, 1995, also 2005) says this:

"Apostrophes are used in the plurals of letters, and often of numbers and abbreviations.
He writes b's instead of d's.
It was in the early 1960's. (OR ... 1960s.)
I know two MP's personally. (OR ... MPs.)"

So... it may be optional, but apostrophes are used to make a series of letters and numbers clearer (i.e., 737s looks like a new model of the 737...)

zkojq · Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:47 am

48 posts into a thread about Delta buying even more Airbuses and no one has mentioned collusion or written a letter to their senator in complaint? What's happened to you a.net??

On a more serious note, thirty or so A321CEOs will be a great replacement for some 757s. I wonder how many more A32xCEOs Airbus have to sell to bridge the gap until the production lines can fully switch over to NEO production. John and Fabrice have done a great job so far.

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