audian
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Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:16 pm

I have been noticing that EK operates relatively older(6-8 years old A6-EC# series) 773 ER aircraft on its US and South American Routes. I wonder why they would not send their new 773 on its Ultra Long Haul routes? All the brand new 77Ws are serving the European (majority) and Asian routes.
Is there a strategic operational reason behind this?

[Edited 2016-04-18 08:21:06]
 
Prost
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:21 pm

Wow, 6-8 year old aircraft are old now? Emirates is a business first and foremost, and they use their assets throughout their route system. Keeping 'new' aircraft to certain routes would not be an efficient use of their assets.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:33 pm

Maybe something to do with cycle rates???

Isn't a cycle rate deemed as as 1 sector (a take off and landing), regardless of the length of flight?

So in theory one of the newer aircraft operating to Europe could do three of four cycles of say 4-5 hour flights per sector, in the time it takes an aircraft operating from Dubai to America on a round trip doing two cycles.

Therefore if the older ones have higher cycle rates and as a way to extend the life of these (elderly  Wink) aircraft, they place these on the routes where they are going to incur the least cycles?

Just a pure guess and don't flame me if I am wrong!

Anyway, the Emirates 777's have never really seen any new product offered over the years on the newer birds, so it's not really like you are missing anything flying the older ones. Maybe a slight older IFE, but the ICE system EK offers is pretty good across the board.

[Edited 2016-04-18 08:57:39]
 
audian
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:52 pm

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 2):

That's my first guess too.

I agree that the product is pretty uniform across their fleet. One thing I experienced on my recent flight is the Touch screen monitors being very sluggish and insensitive on the A6-EC# aircraft.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:57 pm

The only ones they can use have to have the crew rest areas, and many of their 77W fleet don't. I can only assume all the newer planes don't have that necessary feature.
 
dubaiamman243
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:04 pm

As I have been told by one of the members here on a.net, (A6-EC?) are equipped with extra tanks so EK can operate those longer missions.

from my flights tracking experience, I found that the new jets serve the short to medium haul flights. My recent flight from AMM was onboard A6-EPE, one of the latest deliveries to EK.
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
TC957
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:18 pm

Most of the A6-ECx series 77W's, and a few EGx, are high gross weight, something like 351.5t MTOW.
 
audian
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:03 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 6):

You may be correct. I saw some EG#s as well on these routes.
 
bohica
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:17 pm

Quoting audian (Thread starter):
relatively older(6-8 years old

I don't know EK's maintenance schedule but many airplanes 6-8 years old are fresh out of their first major overhaul. That means your "older" 77W is just as good as a brand new one, complete with refurbishments and upgrades.
 
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qf789
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:18 pm

Quoting audian (Thread starter):
I have been noticing that EK operates relatively older(6-8 years old A6-EC# series) 773 ER aircraft on its US and South American Routes. I wonder why they would not send their new 773 on its Ultra Long Haul routes? All the brand new 77Ws are serving the European (majority) and Asian routes.

EK has 2 different configurations for 3 class 77W's, 8F42J304Y and 8F42J310Y. EK uses the 8F42J304Y on the long haul flights to the US, South America & also to Australia (ADL). The regos for these aircraft include A6-EBQ to A6-ECZ plus A6-EGA,B,C,E,F,H & I. The rest of the fleet (A6-EBA-EBP, A6-EGD,G, J-Z, plus all EN and EP series) are either in the 8F42J310Y seating or in 2 class seating
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ZKCIF
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:44 pm

In short, Emirates send their oldest planes where I'm flying. I've been on 8 planes of EK, and their age average at the time of my flights was about 13 years. Fly with me, and you'll get A6-ERM, A6-EAH, A6-EBF, A6-EMP, A6-EKQ and the like...  
It's not that I mind...
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:58 pm

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 5):
As I have been told by one of the members here on a.net, (A6-EC?) are equipped with extra tanks so EK can operate those longer missions.

Strange idea. The 773ER has no aux tank option. That is found only on the 772LR.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
dubaiamman243
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:37 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 11):

Here is qantas744er reply to me in old thread:

"EK's 77L's were delivered with 1 AUX tank and the required plumbing. All AUX tanks were removed within a few months as they are not needed. Not even for the new EK448/449 DXB-AKL-DXB.

The vast majority of EK's -300ERs are 340,000kgs MTOW aircraft. All routes over 12hours block time require a crew rest, and thus -300ER's operating on these routes are fitted with the optional aft overhead crew rest. Te first 5 were 349,000kgs MTOW aircraft. The subsequent 31 were purchased with the highest MTOW available 351,543kgs to operate SFO/LAX/GRU."
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:45 pm

Quoting audian (Thread starter):
Is there a strategic operational reason behind this?
Quoting chrisnh (Reply 4):
The only ones they can use have to have the crew rest areas, and many of their 77W fleet don't

Thanks to dubaiamman243 's reply 12 for the explanation of what is going on.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:38 pm

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 12):
The vast majority of EK's -300ERs are 340,000kgs MTOW aircraft. All routes over 12hours block time require a crew rest, and thus -300ER's operating on these routes are fitted with the optional aft overhead crew rest. Te first 5 were 349,000kgs MTOW aircraft. The subsequent 31 were purchased with the highest MTOW available 351,543kgs to operate SFO/LAX/GRU."

While increasing the MTOW will allow more fuel to be carried for a fixed payload, the additional fuel goes into the standard wing (main) and center section tanks. No extra fuel volume is provided.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:26 am

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 12):
"EK's 77L's were delivered with 1 AUX tank and the required plumbing. All AUX tanks were removed within a few months as they are not needed. Not even for the new EK448/449 DXB-AKL-DXB.

The vast majority of EK's -300ERs are 340,000kgs MTOW aircraft. All routes over 12hours block time require a crew rest, and thus -300ER's operating on these routes are fitted with the optional aft overhead crew rest. Te first 5 were 349,000kgs MTOW aircraft. The subsequent 31 were purchased with the highest MTOW available 351,543kgs to operate SFO/LAX/GRU."

As mentioned, the above was my reply in a previous thread.

Some additional info. for those interested:

EK internally designates 35 of its 120+ B777-300ER's as B777-300ER/ULR.

The internal ULR designation referring to the fact that they have a higher MTOW, slightly reduced Y seat count and are fitted with the aft upper crew rest area (above the rear Y cabin). The crew rest being required on all flights with block times over 12 hours, thus excluding all other -300ER's in the fleet from operating those flights.

Here is the breakdown:

-EBQ/R/U/W/Y: 349,266kgs MTOW.

-ECA/C/D/E/F/G/H/I/J/K/L/M/N/O/P/Q/R/S/T/U/V/W/X and -EGA/B/C/E/F/H/I: 351,543kgs MTOW (highes offered by boeing).

The "ULR" aircraft are all configured 8F/42J/304Y. These 35 aircraft are also scheduled on various non-"ULR" routes, operating shorter flights between their long hauls, and are frequently used as last minute subs. Something that which causes virtually no issues as they only lack 6Y seats versus a non-ULR 3-class -300ER.

All other EK B777-300ER are 340,194kgs MTOW, and are configured either 8F/42J/310Y or 42J/385Y.



As you can see -EGI delivered in 2011 was the last "ULR" so far. I suspect there will be no more, as at 35 the fleet has plenty of slack under the current route structure, and with the -9X being on its way....



The 10 strong -200LR fleet is also fitted with the upper crew rest and thus can be interchanged as a sub. or downgauge on any of the routes where a "ULR" is required. These aircraft have a 343,369kgs MTOW and are extremely capable, so much that EK didnt even see the need to purchase the highest MTOW available 347,451kgs.

The MTOW can be increased at any time if EK ever sees fit, by sending Mr. Boeing a nice fat $$$ check ,for each aircraft. (decreases are also possible) as was done later in the life of the -200ER fleet when they were relegated to 3-5hour sectors.

Note: the -200LRF fleet was purchased and operates with the full 347,451kgs MTOW.

[Edited 2016-04-18 19:29:35]

[Edited 2016-04-18 19:31:35]
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rbavfan
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:48 am

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 5):
As I have been told by one of the members here on a.net, (A6-EC?) are equipped with extra tanks so EK can operate those longer missions.

The 777-300ER does not have provisions for the cargo hold fuel tanks, Only the 777-200LR does. The reason for some 300ER for the long routes is the crew rest areas. They are not in most as they weigh quite a lot, adding to fuel burn.
 
Lentini2001
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:35 am

Quoting qf789 (Reply 9):
EK has 2 different configurations for 3 class 77W's, 8F42J304Y and 8F42J310Y. EK uses the 8F42J304Y on the long haul flights to the US, South America & also to Australia (ADL). The regos for these aircraft include A6-EBQ to A6-ECZ

Sorry to be a pedant but ECZ is 2 class!!
 
audian
Topic Author
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:39 pm

Quoting qantas744er (Reply 15):

Very Informative.

  
 
Beatyair
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RE: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:57 pm

EK has a young fleet. The plane is getting up there after 20 years of service, also depending how good tech ops is.
Older plane or newer plane it has a job to do and if it can't do it, off to the bone yard, and a replacement is bought.
 
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LamboAston
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Re: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:12 pm

EK's 77Ls are in need of an overhaul, and are very tight for EK448/9. My tray table was broken and all 3 ife screens in our row were playing up. Just as well EK448/9 is going A380.
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sierra3tango
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Re: Why EK Operates Older Aircraft On Long Haul Routes

Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:47 pm

Recall reading here on Anet a few years ago Sir TC stated that the A380s were very good as, the range (or lets say MPG) didn't deteriorate so much as 'other planes' as they got older. So in general broad brush terms they used the newer A380s on the ULH as they were more efficient.
Assume this to be the case with the 77Ws as well - is it?

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