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lesfalls
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:58 pm

Norwegian and Ryanair have reached a deal on feeding their long-haul flights onto FR's Short-Haul flights. Both companies are already working on aligning their booking systems. Your thoughts on this?

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...to-norwegian-carrier-34642763.html

Hopefully this works out! In the article it also says that they will be feeding with FR in Belfast and Dublin. Does this mean that DY will possibly start transatlantic flights to DUB and Belfast?
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euroflyer
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:16 pm

That's a great news indeed, nevertheless I don't know how this partnership will last since it's clear that FR would like to launch its own transat airline. But maybe, that will be done through DY who knows.

The article is not very clear about Belfast and Dublin and whether DY routes are planned FROM there.
One thing is clear though, FR will feed DY on LGW, that's a great step forward but it's a pity that DY didn't chose STN instead. The FR feed would have been much bigger
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TWA772LR
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:21 pm

So does this mean Beauvais and Hahn will eventually get TATL service or is it only cities with concurrent DY and FR service?
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SCQ83
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:24 pm

That would be great for new long haul flights out of MAD, BCN, FCO and MXP since Norwegian has expressed interest to fly long-haul from those 4 cities.
 
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euroflyer
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:33 pm

For now they're just in talk regarding LGW.
From what I understand, FR will adjust its inbound and outbound flights (or perhaps increase capacity) to and from LGW in order to meet the DY TATL flight(s).

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 2):
So does this mean Beauvais and Hahn will eventually get TATL service

I don't understand why those airport would be concerned, there is no plan for DY to settle and they are not connected to LGW...
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LTenEleven
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:56 pm

Apparently FR flights from BFS, DUB and a few other places will be feeding DY's long-haul network from LGW.
 
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:40 pm

How will DY short haul be affected?.
 
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:17 pm

Quoting euroflyer (Reply 4):
From what I understand, FR will adjust its inbound and outbound flights (or perhaps increase capacity) to and from LGW in order to meet the DY TATL flight(s).

Increasing capacity could be a problem for Ryanair, since they can't upgauge to a larger plane - they are using 738s already and they don't have anything bigger. LGW is slot controlled and slots are getting hard to come by for much of the day so extra flights may nor be possible either.
 
Mortyman
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:01 pm

I thought it was just talk about interlining ?
 
BobbyPSP
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:50 pm

Lots of IT needed I.e all the various charges FR has.

What a nightmare to check in say in NY and get to an FR flight without all the right "extras" paid for.
 
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JetBuddy
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:30 pm

This is interesting. Now, if they could get a similar agreement with JetBlue on the other side of the pond..
 
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lesfalls
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:21 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 10):

Kjos stared a couple of times already that they weren't thinking about it. It would be great if they did though.
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lesfalls
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:26 am

They also seem to want to offer connections from DY's base at CPH amazingly!

http://ch-aviation.com/portal/news/4...r-deal-over-gatwick-feeder-flights

[Edited 2016-04-20 17:26:54]
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MaverickM11
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:30 am

Quoting lesfalls (Thread starter):
Norwegian and Ryanair have reached a deal on feeding their long-haul flights onto FR's Short-Haul flights. Both companies are already working on aligning their booking systems. Your thoughts on this?

It's not going to make much of a difference. Norwegian longhaul is running LF in the 90s, and the complexity and incremental value of interline connections is just not going to be worth it.

Quoting BobbyPSP (Reply 9):
Lots of IT needed I.e all the various charges FR has.

What a nightmare to check in say in NY and get to an FR flight without all the right "extras" paid for.

  
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lesfalls
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:45 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):

Why do it then? DY could just work without FR and continue on the path it is instead.
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lightsaber
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:53 am

Quoting euroflyer (Reply 1):
I don't know how this partnership will last since it's clear that FR would like to launch its own transat airline. But maybe, that will be done through DY who knows.

Find the tolerance of passengers? I think FR will go into business for themselves if this works out well.

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 7):
LGW is slot controlled and slots are getting hard to come by for much of the day so extra flights may nor be possible eith

London is giving the future opportunities of the A321LR and possible -8ER to rivals hubbing elsewhere. It has become a Monte python skit...

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MaverickM11
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Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:09 am

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 14):
Why do it then? DY could just work without FR and continue on the path it is instead.

No idea. I suspect Norwegian longhaul is bleeding profusely and they'll try anything.
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euroflyer
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:59 am

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 14):
Why do it then? DY could just work without FR and continue on the path it is instead.

Maybe they could yes, but the joint with FR could really help them in getting into the new markets they're targetting outside Scandinavia since they're not that well known from general population.
So, IMO the global strategy is good but unfortunately the operational roll-out is not convincing (I'm still talking only about extra-Scandinavian ops)
LGW is not enough served by FR to comfortably feed DY
It could work for BCN future base though. And regarding ORY future base, it's simply not served by FR (will they joint with U2 for ORY... ? That would be fun to see)
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:07 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
Quoting lesfalls (Reply 14):
Why do it then? DY could just work without FR and continue on the path it is instead.

No idea. I suspect Norwegian longhaul is bleeding profusely and they'll try anything.

Do you have any facts or other indications of this?
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:20 am

Quoting lesfalls (Thread starter):
In the article it also says that they will be feeding with FR in Belfast and Dublin.

In FR's network DUB is a beast, however BFS only has flights to LGW and will add some sun destinations later this year (the usual AGP/ALC/TFS/...)

Are TATL flights from DUB/BFS an option with DY's B738's?
 
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:22 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
It's not going to make much of a difference. Norwegian longhaul is running LF in the 90s, and the complexity and incremental value of interline connections is just not going to be worth it.

on current routes, at current prices. But if Ryanair can provide extra feed, this means more demand. They can then raise prices and increase yield, or launch new routes that previously wouldn't have been viable.
 
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:42 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 8):
I thought it was just talk about interlining ?

Well, it seems it will be a little bit more than that. I don't know if they consider any codesharing though... It's sure that FR will be looking to advertise massively about how their pax can now go to US with a single reservation on Ryanair's website.
On the paper this joint is supposed to be a win-win, but it's clear that FR will be the greatest winner on the deal

[Edited 2016-04-21 01:44:36]
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LTenEleven
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:56 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
No idea. I suspect Norwegian longhaul is bleeding profusely and they'll try anything.

Perhaps not bleeding profusely, but certainly underperforming compared to competitors:
http://media.norwegian.com/uk/#/pres...actor-in-the-first-quarter-1379242

What Norwegian reports as an "underlying improvement" is pre-tax result of -992 MNOK, compared to -777 MNOK the same quarter previous year. Currency effects and losses from fuel hedging accounts for 528 MNOK.
 
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:59 am

Quoting euroflyer (Reply 1):
I don't know how this partnership will last since it's clear that FR would like to launch its own transat airline.

It's not "clear" at all. MoL has repeated hinted that FR would launch a transatlantic airline "when the bottom falls out of the aircraft pricing market" and when he can get 20-30 bargain aircraft. More recently the board of FR refuted statements by MoL.
These statements by MoL were clickbait for the media, and they worked marvelously.
 
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:01 am

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 14):
Why do it then? DY could just work without FR and continue on the path it is instead.

Not really, especially at airports where DY has limited potential to get more slots. On top of this, there are most likely airports that will probably see B738 TATL services and not be a DY hub where FR can assist with passengers. But I recall reading that FR has load factors in the 90's which will in itself limit how many passengers they can feed into DY.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
Find the tolerance of passengers? I think FR will go into business for themselves if this works out well.

I agree. Use DY to cover the costs of software integration, watch how it evolves and then start limited TATL with their B737MAX aircraft while awaiting for deliveries of wide body aircraft. Select US secondary cities to initially launch their TATL services.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
No idea. I suspect Norwegian long haul is bleeding profusely and they'll try anything.

I doubt they are bleeding, I'd say they are more likely trying to cast their net as wide as they possibly can to have more (higher yielding) passengers than what they currently have with their existing short haul network. I expect its financially challenging to launch and grow bases all over Europe where they plan to operate TATL services and this agreement will suit them in the short term.
 
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:15 am

Quoting BobbyPSP (Reply 9):
Lots of IT needed I.e all the various charges FR has.

What a nightmare to check in say in NY and get to an FR flight without all the right "extras" paid for.

I suspect as with most airlines that interline, there'll be some kind of ticketing integration/aligned T&Cs.

Ryanair don't charge for half as many 'extras' as people think. No more than the US legacies do anyway, checked bag and seat selection is about it. You even have to pay for those things with Norwegian if you want them...

Quoting euroflyer (Reply 17):
LGW is not enough served by FR to comfortably feed DY

But if you look at the initial target market, the feed is from BFS & DUB, there isn't a massive amount of transatlantic competition in Ireland, so this could be a well filled void. Those two routes alone have several frequencies a day, I think DUB-LGW is something like 7 or 8. It's completely doable. Mainland Europe is much less a big deal for this particular venture.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:27 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 18):
Do you have any facts or other indications of this?

They're under-performing their LCC competition, and it's not the shorthaul that's dragging them down. SK is outperforming Norwegian for crying out loud.

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 20):
on current routes, at current prices. But if Ryanair can provide extra feed, this means more demand. They can then raise prices and increase yield, or launch new routes that previously wouldn't have been viable.

Extra feed? They're already running at 90+% full on average.There's no space to put the connecting traffic, and raising the price will make most of it evaporate.

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 22):
Perhaps not bleeding profusely, but certainly underperforming compared to competitors:

...and what's the one difference from its competitors?

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 22):
What Norwegian reports as an "underlying improvement" is pre-tax result of -992 MNOK, compared to -777 MNOK the same quarter previous year. Currency effects and losses from fuel hedging accounts for 528 MNOK.

Wait a second...they had a -18% operating margin in 2016 Q1?  eyepopping  That can't be correct, can it?

[Edited 2016-04-21 03:40:08]
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bobdino
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:54 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
Find the tolerance of passengers? I think FR will go into business for themselves if this works out well.

They've talked a number of times about it:

Ryanair Looks At Trans-Atlantic Operations (by LAXintl Jun 19 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
London is giving the future opportunities of the A321LR and possible -8ER to rivals hubbing elsewhere. It has become a Monte python skit...

DUB, I suspect, especially since IAG now own EI.
 
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:16 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 26):
Quoting Navigator (Reply 18):
Do you have any facts or other indications of this?

They're under-performing their LCC competition, and it's not the shorthaul that's dragging them down. SK is outperforming Norwegian for crying out loud.

I would like some facts to back this up. Do you have any recent financial facts? Loadfactors? Anything? It would be nice to see on what facts you base your assumption. It would be interesting to see how the operation is performin on a regular basis now that they are out of their initial longhaul hurdles. Do you have anything to base your statemt on?
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:46 pm

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 25):
But if you look at the initial target market, the feed is from BFS & DUB, there isn't a massive amount of transatlantic competition in Ireland, so this could be a well filled void. Those two routes alone have several frequencies a day, I think DUB-LGW is something like 7 or 8. It's completely doable. Mainland Europe is much less a big deal for this particular venture.

Yes, I have to partially agree with you on that. Also for the LGW base, you can add SNN and ORK.
If DY just want to use LGW FR feed to get its foot in UK-Ireland market it's fine. But that's also mean that FR or DY will have to adjust their timetables in order to make as much flights as possible connect with each other.

For example, the DY flight LGW-JFK is leaving at 17:10 (which is IMO too early)
This ETD is currently in line with only 57% of the daily flights coming from DUB
It's in line with 50% of the daily flights coming from BFS
It's 0% with SNN, and 100% with ORK
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Faro
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:19 pm

I imagine DY offers reclining seats...can/how will this jive with FR's static offer? How will pax receive such a heterogenous product? Will FR be forced to allocate a proportion of reclining seats on interlining frames?


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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:36 pm

Quoting Faro (Reply 30):
I imagine DY offers reclining seats...can/how will this jive with FR's static offer? How will pax receive such a heterogenous product? Will FR be forced to allocate a proportion of reclining seats on interlining frames?

No one is forced to do anything, and this reclining seats comment is preposterous.
Even when flying with legacy Airlines you could be subject to this differences between your domestic and international leg.
I'm sure plenty of people take short haul to connect to a major hub and join their long haul, most of the time you'll not find reclining seats on the short-haul aircraft, independently of the airline.
I myself regularly use TLS-CDG with U2 or AF and then take CDG-BKK with TG in business class. I will not sue U2 or AF for not providing me a full flat business seat on their A320 !
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RJNUT
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:36 pm

Quoting Faro (Reply 30):
I imagine DY offers reclining seats...can/how will this jive with FR's static offer? How will pax receive such a heterogenous product? Will FR be forced to allocate a proportion of reclining seats on interlining frames?

I doubt it would be a codeshare arrangement where product synchronicities are expected, but rather standard interline whereby each carrier is clearly stated in the itinerary and thereby the expectant service
 
32andBelow
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:49 pm

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 32):

I doubt it would be a codeshare arrangement where product synchronicities are expected, but rather standard interline whereby each carrier is clearly stated in the itinerary and thereby the expectant service

Why horizon seats don't recline and they do on Alaska. This is like the weirdest comment.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:29 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 28):
I would like some facts to back this up. Do you have any recent financial facts?

Look at their quarterly report. Norwegian had a -18% op margin in Q1, this year and last year, while fuel is way down YOY. I don't think anyone else comes even close.
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:32 pm

It would appear that Easyjet (Gatwick) have missed out here, unless they have other plans.
 
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:52 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 33):
Why horizon seats don't recline and they do on Alaska. This is like the weirdest comment.

my comment is much broader than just the issue of seat recline, . On interline connections you accept or deal with each carriers offerings, not expecting seamless service as one tends to do on codeshare services(mistakenly so, I might add)
 
SCQ83
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:13 pm

I don't understand this focus on LGW. London is a large market where everything works.

DY will have it harder when starting flights from the likes of BCN. If they start unserved markets (BCN-BOS is a top one; but maybe MAD-MCO, etc.), those markets are maybe unserved for a reason... they are relatively thin. Having connectivity with Ryanair can help fill those planes and eventually make some routes viable, and more passengers for FR. It looks like a win-win situation for everybody.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:42 pm

Quoting parapente (Reply 35):

The probably weren't succuesful with EZY because they don't have such a large network in scandinavia as FR does (they plan to do connections with FR at CPH after they do LGW).
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kdhurst380
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Quoting parapente (Reply 35):

It would appear that Easyjet (Gatwick) have missed out here, unless they have other plans.

I think easyJet have bigger fish to fry. They've got their market share at Gatwick and it shows no signs of letting up, especially with a 7 year formal agreement with Gatwick to grow and develop.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 37):

I don't understand this focus on LGW. London is a large market where everything works.

DY's long haul network out of LGW is big and keeps getting bigger, that is why. Norwegian are cracking a market that nobody else has done with any sniff of success so far. It's very well documented that Ryanair have been watching them very closely, and now they've gone in for the kill, there is money to be made and Ryanair want a slice of that. It also makes very good use of the Irish routes that FR have at LGW, especially the new BFS-LGW route picked up from slots IAG/Aer Lingus had to give up. It's one way of making sure you have bums on seats...
 
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eurowings
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:14 am

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 38):
The probably weren't succuesful with EZY because they don't have such a large network in scandinavia as FR does (they plan to do connections with FR at CPH after they do LGW).

EZY is also a competitor to DY short-haul out of LGW to many destinations, places where DY would ideally get feed from their own services.

Feeding passengers from Belfast? FR seems to moving into BE's territory in their almost total absence from LGW.  box 

[Edited 2016-04-21 17:20:32]
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:21 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
Quoting Navigator (Reply 28):
I would like some facts to back this up. Do you have any recent financial facts?

Look at their quarterly report. Norwegian had a -18% op margin in Q1, this year and last year, while fuel is way down YOY. I don't think anyone else comes even close.

Yes but now we are talking about your statement about their longhaul performance. You say they are so much worse in that respect than SAS. It would be nice to see a breakout in the figures to backup what you say. And again the figures are only interesteing if you break out the startup hurdles with the Dreamliner.

What Im saying is that it would be nice to see how Norwegian longhaul is perforning right now. especially since you are saying that its all crap...

And you should also take into account that Q1 is seasonally the worst quarter. Do you have any analysis?

[Edited 2016-04-22 00:22:19]
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euroflyer
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:49 am

Quoting eurowings (Reply 40):
EZY is also a competitor to DY short-haul out of LGW to many destinations, places where DY would ideally get feed from their own services.

This a very relevant comment.
We should not forget the massive in-house feed that DY can get from its own network out and from LGW (+/- 27 sched. and +/- 10 seas.).

But again, the ETD of their TATL flights are not ideal for that
LAX 14:10
BOS 16:50
JFK 17:10

[Edited 2016-04-22 00:52:58]
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MaverickM11
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RE: Norwegian And Ryanair Agree To Feed Each Others Flights

Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:13 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 41):
And you should also take into account that Q1 is seasonally the worst quarter. Do you have any analysis?

-18% margin, this year and last year. What else is there to say? Find one carrier that comes remotely close to that number. I can't remember the last time I saw a number that negative. SK for NOV15-JAN16 was -2%.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 41):
Yes but now we are talking about your statement about their longhaul performance. You say they are so much worse in that respect than SAS

No I said SK is outperforming the combined Norwegian group. Really anyone is outperforming Norwegian, particularly EU LCCs. No one is going to publicly break out the performance by flight, but Norwegian is the only LCC with a longhaul operation and it's 20pts+ of operating margin worse than FR.
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos