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deltadawg
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DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:39 am

DL asks BBD for a CS500 version of the airliner seemingly in 2011 and now also according to the article. In reading the article it states that DL moved on their 739 order in part because BBD said no to a larger version of the CSeries back in 2011. However, with the recent re-visit with the CSeries, DL is asking once again about a CS500 version and it may be that BBD is looking more closely to the request this time.

In addition it seems BA has inquired as to the possibility of a CS500 according to the article. Also, the article talks about the miscalculation of BBD in not starting off with a CS500 size aircraft which is something most people now realize.

While we all know that BBD should have started with a CS500 size aircraft now it's very interesting to know that DL and BBD have already spoken about this and yet BBD has not made a definitive move on a CS500 between 2011 and now despite one of the largest airlines in the world's wishes for such an aircraft.

The link is below.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...dier-breakthrough/article29679594/
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panam330
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:31 pm

If (and that's a big if, IMO) the CS500 materializes, Boeing (and to a lesser extent, Airbus) will need to act FAST. I love the 737, but the time has come for a clean sheet design. The 321 is eating its lunch on the upper end, the lower end is all but dead save for some recent price-based orders, and the 737MAX is only going to take them so far.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:45 pm

The really easy thing for Boeing to do would be to just buy the Bombardier (or just the C-series and then they don't have the hassle of selling everything else off) for Peanuts which will cover them on the lower end and give Bombardier the capital to build the CS500 and then go and build MOM - and it won't have to reach so low in Capacity and can be optimized around larger capacities.
 
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redzeppelin
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:06 pm

Quoting morrisond (Reply 2):

That’s what I call the 7C7. But I have it filed under "B" for "believe it when I see it."
 
Andy33
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:16 pm

If BA did indeed ask Bombardier for a CS500 it must have been several years ago. Fleet policy for BA, and sister airlines Aer Lingus, Iberia, Iberia Express, Openskies, and Vueling is decided by parent IAG who place all orders for new aircraft, not the individual airlines. You'd think that any discussions with IAG would have been much more significant for Bombardier to leak to a friendly journalist, given the significantly larger number of short haul planes IAG has collectively compared to BA alone, and the chance of breaking Airbus's iron grip on the above-100-seat short haul fleet at all the IAG airlines.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:25 pm

Reply2
The really easy thing for Boeing to do would be to just buy the Bombardier (or just the C-series and then they don't have the hassle of selling everything else off) for Peanuts which will cover them on the lower end and give Bombardier the capital to build the CS500 and then go and build MOM - and it won't have to reach so low in Capacity and can be optimized around larger capacities.

Well quite expensive of course! We know they spoke to Airbus (shares) but they (for whatever reason) said no.So why not Boeing?It makes far more sense.
One can only assume Boeing are not interested either. Perhaps neither A or B see a big enough market in the sub 180 pax sector to make it worth while.But yes if they did buy it would certainly free Boeing to concentrate on the 200-250 segment for any new aircraft
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:29 pm

I find it difficult to believe that IAG would approach BBD. Would they just make inquiries to a new supplier like this?

We all know their dislike for being a launch customer.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:40 pm

Quoting morrisond (Reply 2):
The really easy thing for Boeing to do would be to just buy the Bombardier

they can't, nobody can, unless Bombardier/Beaudoin family is willing to sell, which is not the case.



[Edited 2016-04-22 06:41:31]
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:10 pm

British Airways is the only member of IAG with significant numbers of A319s, the CS500 would be a nice replacement for those, though an added fleet complication instead of adding more A320neos, and none of them are that old by BA standards either
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:49 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 8):
British Airways is the only member of IAG with significant numbers of A319s, the CS500 would be a nice replacement for those, though an added fleet complication instead of adding more A320neos, and none of them are that old by BA standards either

Surely it is the CS300 that is meant to replace A319s, and CS500s would replace A320s?
However, if I'm wrong about that:
IAG at the November 2015 Capital Markets Day stated that the BA A319 fleet would reduce from 44 to 28 by the end of 2020, and the A320 ceo/neo fleet would increase from 62 to 83, plus extra A321s. The planes to accomplish this have already been ordered. So they obviously believe they have too many A319s at BA, and need something bigger to replace at least a proportion of them. The 33 original BA 319s date to 1999-2001, the other 11 came with the purchase of BD and were new between 2003 and 2007.

Following internal transfers within IAG Vueling is the only other group airline with A319s, which it currently needs for flights to FLR, where runway length prevents anything bigger being used.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:16 pm

Quoting morrisond (Reply 2):
The really easy thing for Boeing to do would be to just buy the Bombardier (or just the C-series and then they don't have the hassle of selling everything else off) for Peanuts which will cover them on the lower end and give Bombardier the capital to build the CS500 and then go and build MOM - and it won't have to reach so low in Capacity and can be optimized around larger capacities.

I completely agree with you. If I was running Boeing I would have been on Bombardier's door step the moment I learned Airbus turned down a deal. Buying the C-series and the starting work on a clean sheet MOM for 180-250 seats would have put Boeing in a very competitive position without having to pay for the development costs of the C-series. They could have bought the program for a relative song.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:39 pm

Quoting panam330 (Reply 1):
I love the 737, but the time has come for a clean sheet design. The 321 is eating its lunch on the upper end, the lower end is all but dead save for some recent price-based orders, and the 737MAX is only going to take them so far.

   Nailed it! I'm a huge 737 fan too, but something must be done.

Unfortunately, I'm also a C-Series fan...I am conflicted!
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:08 pm

Quoting Yakflyer (Reply 10):
I completely agree with you. If I was running Boeing I would have been on Bombardier's door step the moment I learned Airbus turned down a deal. Buying the C-series and the starting work on a clean sheet MOM for 180-250 seats would have put Boeing in a very competitive position without having to pay for the development costs of the C-series. They could have bought the program for a relative song.


I'm worried the C-Series would end up as 797-100 and 797-300 and then suffer the same destiny as the 717-200. The C-Series has just about zero commonality with any Boeings, but it shares the flight deck philosophy with Airbus. They'd use what they could of the R&D invested in the C-Series to develop a future 737 replacement, and then scrap the C-Series to sell more 737-MAX in the meantime.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:30 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 12):
I'm worried the C-Series would end up as 797-100 and 797-300 and then suffer the same destiny as the 717-200.

I don't think the Gov of Canada and Quebec would let that happen again. There are to many aerospace jobs involved and they will not let Bombardier go the way De Havilland Canada. The government will remember what happened then and would probably put some serious restrictions on any sale.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:38 pm

Delta has asked Bombardier about this several years ago, But Bombardier was shooting for a segment that they thought they could do well with. All the other manufactures where going bigger.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-how-cseries-revived-a-six-year-courtship-w-424279/

Bombardier was asked about going to the CS500 at the Paris Air Show and they said that they will look at it.
The size difference between the CS100 and the CS300 is approx. 13'. I think they can go another 15' with no issues.
In addition, The Canadian Government can't offer money to help Bombardier without effecting trade agreements, but they can give money for research and development.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bombardier-canada-idUSKCN0XH2TB

So, if Bombardier can show that there will be a deal with Delta and that it hinges on CS500 as well, then the Government may offer grants for the research into the CS500.

I think they are far enough along in the CS100 and CS300 programs and there seems to be interest in the CS500.
Most of Bombardiers orders are for the larger CS300's and oil will not stay super low for ever.
 
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deltadawg
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 12):
I'm worried the C-Series would end up as 797-100 and 797-300 and then suffer the same destiny as the 717-200. The C-Series has just about zero commonality with any Boeings, but it shares the flight deck philosophy with Airbus. They'd use what they could of the R&D invested in the C-Series to develop a future 737 replacement, and then scrap the C-Series to sell more 737-MAX in the meantime.

Have to politely disagree with you on this one. The 717 was doomed from the get go as soon as B bought out MD. The 717 was based on an already 40 year old design and directly stole market share away from the 737's low end market. I think looking back many airlines would have liked to have had the 717 besides just FL but timing just proved to be inoppurtune for the 717.

Boeing bought out MD in part to reduce the field of competition and to ensure the 737's market share. The fact that they got the MD95 along with the buyout didn't hurt either. The potential for B to buy out BBD is a whole different ballgame. The CSeries represents a plug and play opportunity at a relatively low investment. It would ensure that Boeing can offer a clean sheet design for the low end market from 100-150 with an addition of a CS500 version but it also allows Boeing to concentrate on a homegrown clean sheet design MOM offering. It really would make sense for B to buy BBD out. Given the fact that BBD shares are still hovering at sub $2 levels it would seem to be a fairly cheap investment even if they payed three to four times current share price.

Essentially, a BBD buyout and subsequent addition of a CS500 version would mean a 100-150 passenger offering for the next 30-40 years NOW, not ten years from now once they start a NSA program. And the fact that Boeing could offer 5 abreast seating is a real plus too!
  
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:54 pm

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 14):
So, if Bombardier can show that there will be a deal with Delta and that it hinges on CS500 as well, then the Government may offer grants for the research into the CS500.

I think they are far enough along in the CS100 and CS300 programs and there seems to be interest in the CS500.
Most of Bombardiers orders are for the larger CS300's and oil will not stay super low for ever.

Here's my question. What's the long term plan for the CRJs? Sure seems slow on the front as well. If the C Series gets footing via Delta and a CS500 gets off the ground, would they clean sheet a new RJ series consisting of two planes to counteract the E2s? Could the C Series shrink to a CS75 and offer the cabin features of the bigger versions and performance gains?
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:59 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 9):
Following internal transfers within IAG Vueling is the only other group airline with A319s, which it currently needs for flights to FLR, where runway length prevents anything bigger being used.

Iberia is part of IAG and they have 16 A319s according to Airfleets.

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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:19 pm

The labor implications are largely ignored here. I think they're a huge factor.

The worlds largest plane maker can engineer and build a new narrow body if they choose to do so, but the industrial strategy and engine alliances matter. I'd suspect IAM751 would be displeased with the NSA becoming Canadian built and the ramifications on 787 and 777(X) production might be significant.

As enthusiasts we should be happy to be "sort of" close to having 3.2 (embraer) real competitors for narrow body aircraft now, not lamenting the age and slow replacement of one player. Boeing, GE, Pratt, and snecma will figure out a game plan.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:23 pm

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 17):
Iberia is part of IAG and they have 16 A319s according to Airfleets.

You're right, they do have A319s. Sources vary as to whether there are 15 or 16, but I was wrong either way.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:36 pm

Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 16):
Here's my question. What's the long term plan for the CRJs? Sure seems slow on the front as well. If the C Series gets footing via Delta and a CS500 gets off the ground, would they clean sheet a new RJ series consisting of two planes to counteract the E2s? Could the C Series shrink to a CS75 and offer the cabin features of the bigger versions and performance gains?

I think that ship has sailed. BBD allowed too much market share to be captured by EMB, to recapture them may be a challenge. They would have develop something revolutionary.


What it take for BBD from engineering perspective to make a CS500 seat up 150 in a two class config with a range in the 4000 nm neighborhood?
 
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deltadawg
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:28 pm

Quoting INFINITI329 (Reply 20):

Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 16):
Here's my question. What's the long term plan for the CRJs? Sure seems slow on the front as well. If the C Series gets footing via Delta and a CS500 gets off the ground, would they clean sheet a new RJ series consisting of two planes to counteract the E2s? Could the C Series shrink to a CS75 and offer the cabin features of the bigger versions and performance gains?

I think that ship has sailed. BBD allowed too much market share to be captured by EMB, to recapture them may be a challenge. They would have develop something revolutionary.

Very true. When the E-Jets came along it was basically the death warrant for the CRJ program. Now that Embraer is coming out with the E2's that dominance by Embraer will continue for another 15-20 years at least. Also, with the MRJ coming into the marketplace in the next few years the 75-110 passenger range will be wrapped up much like A & B have the 140-200 range today.

It's always easy to look back and be an armchair QB but had BBD staggered the CSeries along with a new revolutionary CRJ program they possibly could have double teamed airlines for all the low end range business but now they are struggling to keep afloat and trying to move the CSeries forward.



[quote=INFINITI329,reply=20]What it take for BBD from engineering perspective to make a CS500 seat up 150 in a two class config with a range in the 4000 nm neighborhood?

I am not an aerospace engineer but from other posts the wing itself is supposedly capable to handle a CS500 stretch and weight but not sure about the range portion of that. The other question in a stretch is P&W and the performance of a slightly larger engine? What kind of thrust would be needed, would it be able to do 3500nm to 4000nm? It seems that most N. American operators would want it capable of doing transcontinental as well as possibly West Coast to Hawaii too.

One would tend to believe that it would be at least 2-1/2 to 3 years after an announcement for a CS500 to EIS. I still think that once all certifications are done and both current models enter into service successfully a CS500 will be launched.

The other factor BBD has to consider is launching a CS500 would most certainly bring out the wrath of A & B and incur price wars for every order so they need to make sure that they have a definitive operating cost advantage in order to make a case for prices that would most likely be higher than A & B due to economies of scale.

The next couple of years should be very interesting. If BBD comes out with a CS500 I would think Boeing would almost be forced into either launching a NSA or buying BBD. Either way, Boeing is the one that will be most affected by a CS500!
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:55 pm

Quoting INFINITI329 (Reply 20):
I think that ship has sailed. BBD allowed too much market share to be captured by EMB, to recapture them may be a challenge. They would have develop something revolutionary.

Not to mention Mitsubishi entering the market soon with the MRJ.
The Dash-8, aka Q-series, isn't competing very well right now either, but at least it only has one major competitor to deal with.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:04 pm

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 22):

MRJ too small to be competing with CSeries.
 
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redzeppelin
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:08 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 23):
MRJ too small to be competing with CSeries.

Sorry for the confusion -- I was responding to comments about the future of the CRJ line:

Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 16):
Here's my question. What's the long term plan for the CRJs?
Quoting INFINITI329 (Reply 20):
I think that ship has sailed. BBD allowed too much market share to be captured by EMB, to recapture them may be a challenge. They would have develop something revolutionary.
 
mmahpeel
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:35 pm

This was 5 years ago.

Relevance?
 
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deltadawg
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:52 pm

Quoting mmahpeel (Reply 25):

This was 5 years ago.

Relevance?

Perhaps it would help to read the article. The first time they asked about a CS500 was five years ago and apparently they are asking again. Reading is a wonderful thing!
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:09 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 21):
The other question in a stretch is P&W and the performance of a slightly larger engine? What kind of thrust would be needed, would it be able to do 3500nm to 4000nm? It seems that most N. American operators would want it capable of doing transcontinental as well as possibly West Coast to Hawaii too.

Transcon is about 2,000nmi. 4,000 nmi is more transatlantic.
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:13 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 21):
The next couple of years should be very interesting.

I couldn't agree more. A market that two years ago looked like an uneventful competition between two derivatives now has a new entrant that could - if it is reliable and delivers upon promises - shake everything up.

Either way, the C-Series is an enthusiast's airplane in every way. Aggressive looking and photogenic from every angle, anchored in a clean sheet, high-risk but high-reward engine design, and an outsider that I just can't help but root for.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:40 am

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 21):

I am not an aerospace engineer but from other posts the wing itself is supposedly capable to handle a CS500 stretch and weight but not sure about the range portion of that. The other question in a stretch is P&W and the performance of a slightly larger engine? What kind of thrust would be needed, would it be able to do 3500nm to 4000nm? It seems that most N. American operators would want it capable of doing transcontinental as well as possibly West Coast to Hawaii too.

The C300 is currently within 5% of its designed weight which is quite an achievement. In Paris when the range bump was announced to 3300nm, the performance data assumed 225 lbs pax+baggage for the 3300nm range. Based on a standard 195 lbs weight calculation for operations, the range is already in the range of 3500nm.

The weight management has resulted in margins that BBC can play with. For example there was talk of standardizing on the CS300 winglets and maybe landing gear doors. Even in the static structural tests nothing broke.

All this points that the aero is perfectly primed for a stretch. I would say a CS500 is a question of when and not if.
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:06 am

Personally, I don't think the CS500 should match the A320 and 737 range. There doesn't need to be another single aisle 150 seater with transcon range. BBD should differentiate the CS500 by offering a plane that can fly short haul routes very efficiently. Give the CS300 a simple stretch to 150-160 seats, a slight thrust bump, and 1500nm-2000nm range, and this plane would be killer on short haul routes.

Such a plane would be a perfect MD80/90 replacement and could operate anywhere within the eastern 2/3 of the U.S., flights along the west coast, and between nearly any two points in eastern Europe.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:53 am

Quoting flyinggoat (Reply 30):
Such a plane would be a perfect MD80/90 replacement and could operate anywhere within the eastern 2/3 of the U.S., flights along the west coast, and between nearly any two points in eastern Europe.

Thing is, by the time any CS500s could be designed, built, certified, and flying, just how many MD80/90s will be left in the world to be replaced? There are hardly any outside the USA now, and AA's will be long gone before a CS500 flies. So that's pretty much Delta as a customer for an MD80/90 replacement, and it isn't a good idea from a business perspective to be tied that closely to a single customer.
They could be used almost anywhere the stage length suits their characteristics, but eastern europe is pretty much LCC territory these days, and Ryanair are going for MAX200s and Wizzair for high-density A321s. Its Western Europe, where something as relatively small as a CS500 might find a niche,though the lack of an A321/739 equivalent might just keep airlines with Airbus or Boeing for standardisation reasons.
 
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deltadawg
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:45 am

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 31):
Thing is, by the time any CS500s could be designed, built, certified, and flying, just how many MD80/90s will be left in the world to be replaced? There are hardly any outside the USA now, and AA's will be long gone before a CS500 flies. So that's pretty much Delta as a customer for an MD80/90 replacement, and it isn't a good idea from a business perspective to be tied that closely to a single customer.

That may be true but if the characteristics fit an airlines needs say in N. America or albeit the Middle East then the plane would do the job no matter where it is at. Just because MD-80/90's are not as abundant outside of N. America does not mean it cannot do the job for an airline.

A Middle Eastern airline could find some need for the CS500 as could a S.E. Asian say out of Bangladesh or Malaysia. Limiting the need to DL or AA is a bit narrow minded isn't it?
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:42 am

Quoting golfradio (Reply 29):

All this points that the aero is perfectly primed for a stretch. I would say a CS500 is a question of when and not if.

Its a huge if right now.

DL, BA and any other airline can ask for a C500 all they want, BBD just doesn't have the money for it. More importantly we are already seeing Boeing possibly answering to a C500 and we all know how well the BBD v Boeing battle has been going for BBD lately.


IMHO DL wouldn't even be talking to BBD if they 1) didn't like the GTF so much 2) didn't need a lot of planes fast. If they could want for MAXs and NEOs I believe they would. I personally don't see BBD offering a deal comparable to what Boeing just gave UA.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:49 am

If Boeing buys BBD, you can kiss the 737-7MAX goodbye, and even rumored 737-7.5MAX. I can see Boeing pushing 4000nmi on a CS500, lighter frame, more range, with the MAX8 and 9 on the upper end.
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:50 am

Well the Swiss CS100's seat 125 people in a two class configuration and the CS300 will seat 140 passengers, so I would assume the CS500's would seat 155 to 160.

If Delta buys these planes, by the time the get the last of there order the 717 will be due for replacement. The CS100 would be ideal for its replacement too. They could have the whole family.
 
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:53 am

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 35):

If Delta buys these planes, by the time the get the last of there order the 717 will be due for replacement. The CS100 would be ideal for its replacement too. They could have the whole family.

It is going to take 15 years for BBD to deliver 75 airplanes?
 
kaneporta1
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:44 am

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 35):
Well the Swiss CS100's seat 125 people in a two class configuration and the CS300 will seat 140 passengers, so I would assume the CS500's would seat 155 to 160.

Although Swiss will fly the CSeries in a 2-class configuration, the whole cabin is actually at 30" pitch. At 30" the CS300 will seat up to 150 people.

My personal opinion is that if a CS500 was ever made, it should be at least 180-185 seats at 30" pitch.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:16 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 34):

If Boeing buys BBD, you can kiss the 737-7MAX goodbye, and even rumored 737-7.5MAX.

I disagree, unless of course Boeing wants to make the line completely irrelevant in the marketplace. You have WN that will throw money at Boeing to make a 7.5MAX versus having to adopt a new airframe. That alone is worth plenty of orders. Does UA - who has just ordered 65 MORE 737's - want to introduce an all new airframe when they can get a 7.5MAX down the road that meets their needs? Etc.

If Boeing were to go to a MAX 8/MAX 200/MAX 9 lineup, I think that they would have the least compelling NB lineup possible, regardless of whether they also "own" the C Series line. I don't see it garnering them many additional sales - instead, they'd be swapping MAX 7's for CS300's or CS500's.

Ultimately, which is a better solution for most carriers:

A319neo/A320neo/A321neo

or

CS300/MAX 8/MAX 9

?

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:29 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 38):
disagree, unless of course Boeing wants to make the line completely irrelevant in the marketplace. You have WN that will throw money at Boeing to make a 7.5MAX versus having to adopt a new airframe. That alone is worth plenty of orders. Does UA - who has just ordered 65 MORE 737's - want to introduce an all new airframe when they can get a 7.5MAX down the road that meets their needs? Etc

WN has a staggering 30 MAX 7s on order. This airplane will cost just as much as a 738 to operate. IF WN orders any of these it will be hand full of airplanes for a few for routes deep in S. America from HOU that are outside the ranges of the 700,800, and MAX 8. WN will not go buck wild on this airplane
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:53 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 38):

If Boeing were to go to a MAX 8/MAX 200/MAX 9 lineup, I think that they would have the least compelling NB lineup possible, regardless of whether they also "own" the C Series line. I don't see it garnering them many additional sales - instead, they'd be swapping MAX 7's for CS300's or CS500's.

Boeing needs to fix the top end of the line up. Till they offer a true 3210NEO, 321NEOLR, 757-200, 757-300 they are going to keep getting their asses kicked.

At some point the airlines will need a 150-160 seater. The MAX8 is probably the best plane on the market, but not good enough to get airlines to have spilt fleets outside of the US3. The 320NEO is winning the battle right now even with the small order book just because of the 321NEO.

Quoting INFINITI329 (Reply 39):

WN has a staggering 30 MAX 7s on order. This airplane will cost just as much as a 738 to operate. IF WN orders any of these it will be hand full of airplanes for a few for routes deep in S. America from HOU that are outside the ranges of the 700,800, and MAX 8. WN will not go buck wild on this airplane

people keep saying this but WN has all of ~115 738s in the fleet and 600 or so 300/700s with many used frames still coming in.

I know everyone is feeling the -800 love at WN but maybe we should talk about this IF the 800 and/or MAX8 get to 50% of the size of of the 300/700 fleet. Right now WN isn't replacing 700s so its very logical that they don't have a ton of MAX 7 orders. Having said that I can promise Boeing and Southwest aren't keeping the -7 alive because of 30 airplanes. Its clear WN has promised more orders to the plane than what they have currently, but it'll probably be a few years down the road before they need them.

now a -7 with 150 seats for WN is very interesting, but still only talking about 7-8 more seats than the current -700.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:09 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 40):
Boeing needs to fix the top end of the line up. Till they offer a true 3210NEO, 321NEOLR, 757-200, 757-300 they are going to keep getting their asses kicked.

In other words, they're going to keep getting their asses kicked.  
Quoting INFINITI329 (Reply 39):
WN has a staggering 30 MAX 7s on order.

So?

Quoting INFINITI329 (Reply 39):
WN will not go buck wild on this airplane

I never said they would, but they are going to struggle to fill 738's in their network and also retain smaller markets.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
ytz
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:24 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 33):
BBD just doesn't have the money for it.

People who say this have no idea how politics works in Quebec.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 40):
At some point the airlines will need a 150-160 seater.

Very few airlines are so constrained that they exclusively need a plane in that size range and couldn't go larger or smaller. That's exactly why not just the 321NEO but the 739MAX sales are up to.

Quoting flyinggoat (Reply 30):
There doesn't need to be another single aisle 150 seater with transcon range.

If and it's a big if, BBD does the CS500, they won't do it without TCON range. American and European carriers seem to want that kind of range, if anything just for flexibility.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Transcon is about 2,000nmi. 4,000 nmi is more transatlantic.

Usually closer to 2800-3000nmi (at the usual full pax and baggage calculation) with reserves, lots of room for winds, and higher loads.....
 
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deltadawg
Topic Author
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:00 am

http://www.bidnessetc.com/67859-eyes...d-bombardier-delta-air-lines-deal/

Looks like an announcement could be this week! According to another post the CSeries is supposed to be in ATL this Thursday. May make sense with this article!?   
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5332
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:15 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 42):

Very few airlines are so constrained that they exclusively need a plane in that size range and couldn't go larger or smaller. That's exactly why not just the 321NEO but the 739MAX sales are up to.

Very few airlines are going to go with a ~130 seater and the next smallest plane being a ~180 seater.

321NEO and MAX9 (even 321CEO and -900ERs) are up more so because a lot of airlines need 757 replacement. Most of the worlds 320/738 fleet aren't ready for replacement yet.

Quoting ytz (Reply 42):

People who say this have no idea how politics works in Quebec.

Ah yes, pay for it with Taxes. Logical.  
 
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deltadawg
Topic Author
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:19 am

http://www.bidnessetc.com/67859-eyes...d-bombardier-delta-air-lines-deal/

An announcement of the CSeries/DL order could be just a couple of days away according to the article above.

Another post has a rumor that the CSeries is supposed to be in ATL on Thursday so coupled with the article above could be imminent and a the announcement could be made in ATL.
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
Amiga500
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RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:33 am

Leaving aside DL and the CS500 for a minute.


Why on earth have BBD not offered a business jet based on the CS100 fuselage using the tweaked CS300 undercarriage?

By my (rough) estimations and assuming a basic tank volume of 13.875 m3, if you assume about 55% of the cargo bay volume can be used for fuel (which would still leave around 8.5 m3 of cargo bay on 85% ACT volume efficiency); and an MTOW equalling the CS300, you could carry 15x passengers with 200kg of pax+baggage for around 6000 nm.

Or further than a Global 5000.


Not quite Global 7000 range - but then - if they'd built a (2nd) bigger wing that could go 7000 nm for the CSeries - it could have went straight onto a CS700 or CS900. That development money could have come straight from the Global7000/8000 [which would not have been required.]


Consider that with the CS300 as 2nd to launch debacle and you've got to wonder - just who was (and is) making the strategic decisions at BBD?
 
ytz
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Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:59 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 44):
Very few airlines are going to go with a ~130 seater and the next smallest plane being a ~180 seater.

You're seeing discretization in 50 seat increments right now at Delta. Why wouldn't that continue? Airplanes at 100, 150, ~200.

The 130 seat airplanes (7MAX and 319NEO) aren't selling well for a reason. It's only a small increase in operating costs, for a massive increase in revenue opportunity to upsize. The 738 size, however, is rather unoptimal since two class is at 160. Get 2-class under 150 and airlines will scoop them up.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 44):
321NEO and MAX9 (even 321CEO and -900ERs) are up more so because a lot of airlines need 757 replacement. Most of the worlds 320/738 fleet aren't ready for replacement yet.

Just look at Air Canada and their 737 Max order. Just under half of them are -9s. This is from operating a dozen 321s. Clearly airlines are upsizing and that's just one example. It's also why DL is rumoured to be splitting this replacement with CS300s and 321s. It's more efficient to do a split like that and get the airplanes you need for heavy loads and the smaller airplanes for frequency maintenance.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 44):
Ah yes, pay for it with Taxes. Logical.

Very logical. Quebec makes a ton of taxes from employees and all the supported companies and their employees. Do you think Washington State giving tax breaks to Boeing is illogical?
 
golfradio
Posts: 899
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:35 pm

RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:07 pm

I have a hunch that we will definitely see a CS500 soon. If not at Farnborough then at least this year.

An interesting nugget here

Saudi's Flynas rules out Bombardier from possible 100-jet order

Quoting FlyNAS chief executive Paul Byrne

Quote:
"We just didn't want to be the launch customer" for its C Series jet, he said without elaborating.

Now he can't obviously mean the CS100 or the CS300. So?   
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: DL Asks BBD For CS500 - Reportedly And So Does BA

Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:02 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 47):

You're seeing discretization in 50 seat increments right now at Delta.

You comparing a 50 seat RJ to a 160 seat 320/738 just shows you don't know what you are talking about.

Quoting ytz (Reply 47):

Just look at Air Canada and their 737 Max order. Just under half of them are -9s. This is from operating a dozen 321s. Clearly airlines are upsizing and that's just one example. It's also why DL is rumoured to be splitting this replacement with CS300s and 321s. It's more efficient to do a split like that and get the airplanes you need for heavy loads and the smaller airplanes for frequency maintenance.

Because DL has plenty of 160 seaters and lets just say is in the market for used ones.
as for AC, so they are building for some growth, but still planning on operating 160 seat MAX8s.

and simple fact, if what you are saying is true......380s would be hot cakes........

Quoting ytz (Reply 47):
Do you think Washington State giving tax breaks to Boeing is illogical?

I think you need to look up the differences between the tax breaks Boeing gets and the tax check BBD is getting.

and No, I would be as equally pissed about a Boeing bailout as I was about the banks and the US3 automakers. Just slapping another band aid on stupid management choices.

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