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b727fan
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Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:54 am

Charter + Cargo, Feasible?

Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:04 am

Hi Folks,

Sorry if this topic has been discussed before, but I was wondering given the A380 capacity as well as the 747's successful Cargo-Liner history, how feasible would it be to have a 747-8 with all passenger upper deck and cargo haul below? Or even having the same logic applied to the A380.
I know there are 747 Combi variations, but this way more room is dedicated to the cargo. Imagine an airline that is both a charter or LCC and lifts lots of cargo from one city to another. I could imagine such an airline can actually be profitable say flying from major EU cities to places in NAM, ME and FE.

I thought of this concept for 2 reasons! One selfishly not accepting the fact the 747 may be phased out and Two, I read that A380 productions may also slow down and to my recollection, there are no #80s purely utilized as cargo planes.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and comments.
-b727fan
 
L.1011
Posts: 2172
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:46 am

RE: Charter + Cargo, Feasible?

Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:11 pm

To my knowledge (please correct me if I'm wrong) 747Fs do not typically carry cargo on the upper deck as it is. I've heard it described as a small galley for the use of the crew as well as a few old-style recliner first class seats for deadheading airline employees and the like. Though 747Fs only have the short upper deck, one presumes that an airline could fill that space with a dozen or two seats at the normal passenger aircraft density and sell them if it wanted to, but I don't believe anybody has ever done so.
 
LJ
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Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Charter + Cargo, Feasible?

Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:41 pm

Quoting L.1011 (Reply 1):
Though 747Fs only have the short upper deck, one presumes that an airline could fill that space with a dozen or two seats at the normal passenger aircraft density and sell them if it wanted to, but I don't believe anybody has ever done so.

Martinair sold these seats to the Dutch royal family once. If my memory is correct it was on a state visit to Japan where the (at the time) queen traveled a Martinair freighter to Hong Kong to take the government aircraft for the short hop to Japan. Otherwise it's used by people who have to accompany the cargo (e.g. when horses are transported). Otehrwise it wouldn't make sense. Cargo flights have a relatively flexible departure time and usually waits until the cargo is loaded on board. Not something which you can sell to a normal passenger. Moreover, cargo flights do't dock at the terminal.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Charter + Cargo, Feasible?

Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:58 pm

The 777 is basically this.
 
COSPN
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Charter + Cargo, Feasible?

Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:16 pm

Short answer is no .. Most cargo airlines. Don't. Have flight attendants so that would. Mean 14 or less pax not worth the trouble .. And cargo airlines usually carry dangerous goods not allowed on passenger aircraft ...
 
32andBelow
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: Charter + Cargo, Feasible?

Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:37 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 4):
Short answer is no .. Most cargo airlines. Don't. Have flight attendants so that would. Mean 14 or less pax not worth the trouble .. And cargo airlines usually carry dangerous goods not allowed on passenger aircraft ...

It's 19 pax, but it is not hard to get FAs or you could probably have some owned by another company. FedEx ran the quick change planes and had flight attendants.
 
dcajet
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

RE: Charter + Cargo, Feasible?

Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:55 pm

The concept would never meet with the approval of industry and safety regulators nor does it make economic sense for cargo airlines for the simple reason that cargo airliners carry goods not deemed safe for carriage on a passenger flight.

The above reason is why we don't see any more "Combi" versions of airliners. It is my understanding that following the 1987 SAA 747 200 Combi accident over the Indian Ocean the idea of mixing restricted cargo and passengrs on a same plane was revisited and it became the nail in the coffin for the Combi concept.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5246
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: Charter + Cargo, Feasible?

Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:09 pm

Quoting dcajet (Reply 6):
The above reason is why we don't see any more "Combi" versions of airliners. It is my understanding that following the 1987 SAA 747 200 Combi accident over the Indian Ocean the idea of mixing restricted cargo and passengrs on a same plane was revisited and it became the nail in the coffin for the Combi concept.

The problem is that you can no longer have a moveable bulkhead. Without the ability to adjust cargo or pax capacity the combi doesn't work as well. Tons of cargo including hazmat travels below deck on passenger flights every day, right now, in the sky.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4852
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

RE: Charter + Cargo, Feasible?

Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:24 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 7):
Tons of cargo including hazmat travels below deck on passenger flights every day, right now, in the sky.

Of course, but as I understand it, cargo airliners carry goods not deemed safe for transportation on passenger flights. In fact, we have seen two accidents in the recent past (UPS in Dubai and Asiana Cargo over the Yellow Sea) where both planes were lost probably due to issues with the cargo affecting both the frame airworthiness and or crews' abilities to operate them. Such a situatiion on a passenger flight is highly unlikely (Valujet 1996 over the Everglades).

Question - the movable bulkhead restriction - was it due to safety requirements, I presume?
Keep calm and wash your hands.

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