migair54
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LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:16 am

Lufthansa group is closing First class reservation in many of the Munich routes, i am not sure if they are going to replace the seats with more Business class, I guess where the 8 first class seats are now they can easily fit 12 or even more business class.

3 class A333 is showing for next year with 42-28-185, that configuration does not exist in LH planes, so I guess some reconfiguring will happen.
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Lufthansa/information.php


Following routes sees First Class reservation being closed, with certain exceptions, including those operated by A340-600:
eff 21SEP16 Munich – Delhi Selected dates between 21SEP16 and 20OCT16 is still available to book in First Class
eff 01DEC16 Munich – Charlotte
eff 01DEC16 Munich – Montreal
eff 01DEC16 Munich – Mumbai
eff 01DEC16 Munich – Tehran Imam Khomeini
eff 03JAN17 Munich – Boston
eff 03JAN17 Munich – Chicago O’Hare First Class reservation closed until 31MAR17 inclusive
eff 02FEB17 Munich – New York JFK First Class reservation closed until 31MAR17 inclusive
eff 02FEB17 Munich – Washington Dulles
eff 04FEB17 Munich – Miami First Class reservation closed on Day 36

For flights on/after 26MAR17, following routes displaying 3-class A330-300 (C42E28M185) instead of 4-class (F8C42E21M145):
Munich – Charlotte
Munich – Delhi
Munich – Denver
Munich – Miami
Munich – Montreal
Munich – Mumbai
Munich – Riyadh
Munich – Tehran Imam Khomeini
Munich – Toronto
Munich – Vancouver
Munich – Washington Dulles
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:45 am

LH pulled First Class from all 747-4 I seem to recall now only on the 747-8.
Such a shame as it really a very good product.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
rutankrd
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:05 am

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 1):

LH pulled First Class from all 747-4 I seem to recall now only on the 747-8.
Such a shame as it really a very good product

If it's not selling at typically x8 to x10 times the flexible economy fare its a very expensive waste of real estate.

BTW the 388 also has first !
 
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SQ22
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:13 am

Quoting anetter goldorak from the other thread (being deleted)

Quoting migair54 (Thread starter):
Lufthansa group is closing First class reservation in many of the Munich routes, i am not sure if they are going to replace the seats with more Business class, I guess where the 8 first class seats are now they can easily fit 12 or even more business class.

They will rather install more Y !
 
SCQ83
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:26 am

I find surprising First being removed from MIA or RUH. I would have expected those destinations to generate First Class leisure demand. Others like CLT or YUL I am more surprised they could support First.

But I am sure Lufthansa knows much better their numbers.
 
migair54
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:37 am

Actually it seems like they are going to install one more row of Premium Economy, 7 seats, and 5 rows of economy, 40 seats.

So basically they will move rows of business forward and in that space arrange they will add this 6 rows. 8 seats of First replace by 47 in economy and economy plus.

Reading between lines, First is not selling good anymore, maybe because the improvement of Business, Economy premium is doing good because they adding 7 seats, but not that good to add even more and economy is always in demand.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 2):
BTW the 388 also has first !

And I think it will stay for a while more, the A388 B748 fly the best performing, or the most high yielding routes in the network, they have many seats in First and Business.

I think LH is just following what it looks like a global tendency, the improvement of Business class seats and cabins make the First class less attractive, except for the ones that really one to have the best of the best.
 
hkcanadaexpat
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:37 am

Isn't this also related to the first deliveries of A359 starting in December which will be void of first class?
There should be 2 delivered pre year end and another 8 by mid-2018, all going to Munich.
A
 
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seahawk
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:46 am

Quite logical. Business traffic is no longer booked in first class in most larger cooperations. First class leisure traffic is moving to the private jets.
 
migair54
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:27 am

One thing that LH has in their favour is the dual hub operation, if you want to book first class you can still do via FRA instead of MUC so if the pax is in transit to another destination it's still ok, I am not sure if any of this destination is only served from MUC but I think most of them are from both big hubs.
So basically they can re route the flow of pax and somehow keep the pax flying LH if they want First.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 7):
Quite logical. Business traffic is no longer booked in first class in most larger cooperations. First class leisure traffic is moving to the private jets.

Not that much. Long haul private jets are very expensive, much more than a ticket in First class, specially if only 1 or 2 pax are travelling.
 
jfk777
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:20 pm

The difference between the F & J is obviously getting blurred even more, Lufthansa will probably just have 8 First Class seats on their A380 and 748 planes. The 777-9 will probably have First also. On routes flying the smaller A330-300 & A340's First Class is just no needed any more. If LH didn't have the 748 First would just be on their A380's.
 
vv701
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:51 pm

I guess that the LH F Class situation mirrors that of BA.

At the IAG Market's Day Meeting last November BA revealed that the yield per square meter from their F Class cabins was lower than that from all their other long-haul including their Y Class cabins.

So what did BA say they were doing about this?

Their 787-8s have no F Class cabin. Their 787-9s have only an eight seat F cabin. All their other four-class configured long-haul aircraft all have between twelve and seventeen F Class seats.

They announced a plan to convert four-class BA 772s to three classes. Currently they operate three 772s with seventeen. F Class seats. Eighteen 772s are configured with fourteen and a further nine with twelve F Class seats. (These are in addition to those BA 772s already in a three-class configuration.)
 
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seahawk
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:07 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 8):
Not that much. Long haul private jets are very expensive, much more than a ticket in First class, specially if only 1 or 2 pax are travelling.

That is the point. Those still willing to pay for or entitled to a first class ticket do not care about the extra money for the private jet, those who have to look at the ticket price are usually booked in business today. One must not forget that neither MUC nor FRA are really VIP heavy. Much of it was business driven and the big German co-operations are now more likely to put their managers in business class or private jet (when time is essential) and the normal staff in economy or premium economy. MUC is driven a lot by the demand of BMW, Audi and other firms from the South of the country and those have all taken a look at the travel expenses in the last years.

It is also no surprise if you look at the planed seating for the A350s.
 
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vhtje
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:45 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 10):
At the IAG Market's Day Meeting last November BA revealed that the yield per square meter from their F Class cabins was lower than that from all their other long-haul including their Y Class cabins.

I would easily believe that. Does anyone actually pay for F? I mean, how many passengers in F actually paid a regular F fare to get there? I am a heavy user of BA across the Atlantic and happily pay for J, but the extra jump to F is not worth it, in my view.

Do not get me wrong, F is absolutely amazing, but then so is the extra £1500 in my pocket. Thus far, all my flown F flights have been either an OpUp, a full reward ticket or a reward upgrade. I'm fairly certain from speaking to fellow travellers in the lounge that I am not alone in thinking this way.

The only time I might be tempted to actually pay for F is when it is on sale. One often sees F seats on long hauls for only a couple of hundred pounds more than J fare - and sometimes cheaper.

Still, I would be sad if F does prove to be uneconomical and the likes of BA and LH do, ultimately and many years hence, remove from their respective fleets. Let us hope it never happens.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
migair54
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:46 pm

The problem I see with BA and first is different, I think BA has way too big First class cabins, and I think in the future all the new planes will have 8 or less first, because London is a much bigger market for First than MUC or FRA for example, so at least that few seats can be sold.

Quoting vhtje (Reply 12):
I would easily believe that. Does anyone actually pay for F? I mean, how many passengers in F actually paid a regular F fare to get there? I am a heavy user of BA across the Atlantic and happily pay for J, but the extra jump to F is not worth it, in my view.

Some people pay for it, but many more redeem miles or get upgrades due to overbooking.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:55 pm

MIA was long LH's best F class destination in North America; perhaps it still is if they are flying F there 5 days a week during the season when JFK does not get it at all!

Did I miss something or is EWR keeping F?
 
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mercure1
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:58 pm

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 6):

Isn't this also related to the first deliveries of A359 starting in December which will be void of first class?
There should be 2 delivered pre year end and another 8 by mid-2018, all going to Munich.

  

As A350 grows in MUC and replaces other aircraft, quite obviously F class offer will be removed from many routes.
mercure f-wtcc
 
OSL777FLYER
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:46 pm

I think this is an indication of things to come. UA has announced before that they will be cutting F-class on their services.

The reasons are that apart from the extremely wealthy ( who will charter their own aircraft instead), not a whole lot of people fly in First class on "revenue" flights anymore. It is mostly upgrades with miles etc. Corporations are no longer willing to pay for first class travel ( Apart from perhaps their CEO's ) anymore. The cost difference is simply too large.

In addition, business class cabins, on a lot of carriers, have become better and better over the years. Some are definitely comparable now to what first class was perhaps a few years ago.

I would not be surprised if the seats became fewer and fewer and would in the end disappear altogether, at least for the European carriers.

The ME3 are another story though..........
 
MAH4546
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:55 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 14):

MIA was long LH's best F class destination in North America; perhaps it still is if they are flying F there 5 days a week during the season when JFK does not get it at all!

Did I miss some

This is only MUC flying. No changes to the F capacity in JFK/MIA-FRA, which is where most of the demand is in the first place for that service.
a.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: LH Removing First In Many MUC Flights

Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:58 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 7):
Quite logical. Business traffic is no longer booked in first class in most larger cooperations. First class leisure traffic is moving to the private jets.

   Which is also why airlines are having to offer a more discounted business class, but ideally lie flat. So it is a race to maximize the revenue for the minimal costs.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 8):
Not that much. Long haul private jets are very expensive, much more than a ticket in First class, specially if only 1 or 2 pax are travelling.

Long haul private jets allow business to continue due to the privacy. The reality is that business class (if lie flat) is 'good enough' and those not willing to pay for a private jet (e.g., fractional share) will find business class good enough.

The reality is those looking and affording 'the best' will go on the private jet. Those looking for comfort but 'at the right price' will go business class. Companies will generally put the CEO and certain executives on the business jet.

Quoting OSL777FLYER (Reply 16):
In addition, business class cabins, on a lot of carriers, have become better and better over the years. Some are definitely comparable now to what first class was perhaps a few years ago.

  

Only carriers who fly between high premium markets long haul will thrive with first. So I expect to see the 1st class offering continue in London, Frankfurt, Dubai, Sydney, Hong Kong, Beijing, Singapore, and Shanghi. So the airlines that hub at these premium destinations will offer connecting 1st class seats. For most markets, it will be the business jet.

For example, about 2/3rds of the flights of individuals I know who used to fly first, about half have down graded to business class but about half fly a business jet. The exceptions from LAX tend to be flights to the cities I listed above.

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