skipness1E
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RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:17 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 48):
Never knew AF took so few 744s. Only 12 PAX and two F.

They had 16 passenger B744s of which two came from UTA, one more was ntu and went to RAM as CN-RGA.
They took six new and one second hand B744Fs, so 23 in all.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:23 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 48):
Never knew AF took so few 744s. Only 12 PAX and two F.

Deliveries started in 1991, they got a couple through the UTA merger. You have to remember that the '90s were not an easy time for AF, lots of red ink. They cut some routes and also started to receive A340s, sort off filling the gap between the 747s and the A300-200/310s & B767s.
 
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atypical
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RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:37 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 42):
While Safran (nee Snecma) had a big chunk of the CF6 program (10-20%) and half of CFM, they have very little of GEnx, just 3 % through Techspace Aero unlike the 23% of the GE90 and 11% of the GE9X. So there's little to be gained for any French entity buying anything with a GEnx engine.

CFM has been updating LEAP. What is CFM sales in compared to commercial sales for the parent companies (% and model ranges) to the parent manufacturing for commercial engines (GEnx etc) and how do the keep one from cannibalizing the other? Engine development is already costly and running two (I assume) separate, and potentially competing, cores.

The other question, if anyone knows, is certain industries had developed from a product (brand driven) to a commodity (like wheat and corn) as they mature. Disk hard drives being an example of an industry where the manufactures see the market is much more like agriculture than fashion. Has the gas turbine moved toward a commodity like market or is still a very specific product that wins market?
 
goldorak
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RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:25 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 45):
This last B77W has a "42J" configuration, so it has the NEV4 seats in J.

ThanK you FlySSC.
Do you have any explanation for this non-sense ? How can an airline retrofit its fleet to install new (great) J seats and still take delivery of brand new planes with the old J seat, a completely outdated product ???
 
fa4af
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RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:51 am

Hello everyone

Quoting goldorak (Reply 53):

the explanations they give us internally are:
-the planes were ordered from Boeing before the Cirrus seats were chosen, and Boeing insists on delivering the planes the exact way they were designed intially. My guess is changes are always possible but AF wants to avoid penalties for "last minute changes"...
-Zodiac itself being the manufacturer for the Cirrus seats is super delayed with close to 5000 seats on its delivery log..and it is proving unable to face demand. Waiting for the seats could have led to long delays in aircraft deliveries.
-AF needs the planes now, for its routes where it faces less competition or at least where AF/KL has ways to lift the pressure such as HAV, PUJ, GIG, BKK, SGN and so on...
-the rest of the cabins are fitted with the latest products in W and Y
-the IFE is the latest version of Panasonic
So all in all, these latest aircraft are far from a "completely outdated product", but I agree that changes (for the better) never quite seem to come fast enough.
 
goldorak
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RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:01 pm

Quoting fa4af (Reply 54):
the explanations they give us internally are:
-the planes were ordered from Boeing before the Cirrus seats were chosen, and Boeing insists on delivering the planes the exact way they were designed intially. My guess is changes are always possible but AF wants to avoid penalties for "last minute changes"...
-Zodiac itself being the manufacturer for the Cirrus seats is super delayed with close to 5000 seats on its delivery log..and it is proving unable to face demand. Waiting for the seats could have led to long delays in aircraft deliveries.
-AF needs the planes now, for its routes where it faces less competition or at least where AF/KL has ways to lift the pressure such as HAV, PUJ, GIG, BKK, SGN and so on...
-the rest of the cabins are fitted with the latest products in W and Y
-the IFE is the latest version of Panasonic
So all in all, these latest aircraft are far from a "completely outdated product", but I agree that changes (for the better) never quite seem to come fast enough.

Thank you very much for your explanations fa4af. So it means that those new planes will be retrofitted with the BEST J seat in a couple of months ? My remarks about the outdated product was for the J cabin only, because yes, the NEV4 seat is a completely outdated product now. And as you said, this process is wayyyy too slow at AF (it already took forever from Espace 127 to the NEV1-2 seats. I know that AF has some financial constraints, but the BEST J seat is one of the Beaton the market and so it is a powerful weapon against the competition. And so AF must accelerate its deployment.
One question : are the NEV4 seats installed in those new planes brand new or does AF re-use some "old" NEV4 seats removed from the retrofitted planes ?
 
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Aesma
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RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:08 pm

Quoting atypical (Reply 52):
The other question, if anyone knows, is certain industries had developed from a product (brand driven) to a commodity (like wheat and corn) as they mature. Disk hard drives being an example of an industry where the manufactures see the market is much more like agriculture than fashion. Has the gas turbine moved toward a commodity like market or is still a very specific product that wins market?

There are too few engine models, to few total sales, and for a too high price, to be anything like a commodity.

If it hasn't happened to car engines, it's certainly nowhere close to happen to airplane engines.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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atypical
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RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:25 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 56):
There are too few engine models, to few total sales, and for a too high price, to be anything like a commodity.

If it hasn't happened to car engines, it's certainly nowhere close to happen to airplane engines.

I am not sure if the is one engine manufacturer that isn't also an automobile manufacturer, hence why I used hard drives. Worldwide there are only 3 makers of hard drives, but none makes a computer.

Nothing will ever be a perfect parellel, so your answer may be the be there is.
 
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Aesma
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RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:19 am

I have spent much more money buying hard drives than buying cars, have been hurt by floods in Thailand, so I know what you mean.

There is another argument against the idea, it's maintenance. A hard drive or other commodity has zero maintenance, on the other hand an aircraft engine has huge maintenance requirements. You have to consider those when buying. Or leasing, another trend with engines.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
doulasc
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RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:55 am

Is the 777 going out of production
 
zoulastar
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:48 pm

RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:25 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 41):
Just to make sure : what do you mean ? Old J ?

New W, new Y, but NEV5 seats in J.

B77W having the new J seats are B77W with F service as well.

Val
 
zoulastar
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:48 pm

RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:31 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 55):
One question : are the NEV4 seats installed in those new planes brand new or does AF re-use some "old" NEV4 seats removed from the retrofitted planes ?

New seats. That's the least we can do...  
Those 42J B77W are not supposed to be retrofitted with new J anytime soon. Next step is the A330.
 
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atypical
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RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:58 am

Quoting zoulastar (Reply 61):
Is the 777 going out of production

No. I also questioned the title of this post. It is true however this is the last of the AF 777s until they order more, if they ever do. AF has ordered only 18 A350s so there is no strong sense AF is committed to it over the 777X. Most major airlines will probably end up with a mix of the two.
 
goldorak
Posts: 1452
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:38 am

Quoting zoulastar (Reply 60):
New W, new Y, but NEV5 seats in J.

I think you meant NEV4  
Quoting zoulastar (Reply 61):
New seats. That's the least we can do...  

OK fair. But so we were told in post #54 that AF decided to stick to the old seat in the new planes to not change the already given orders to Boeing to avoid to pay penalties. But now we learn that AF is spending money to buy new NEV4 seats, and no plan to retrofit those birds ??
I continue to say that it doesn't make any sense. I understand AF needed those new planes now, and that Zodiac is late in their deliveries, but in that case, it could have make more sense to keep the 744 one more year and adjust the delivery of the new 777 to the BEST J seats delivery by Zodiac.
Outside the small "COI config" sub fleet , keeping the NEV4 seat in a large part of the 777 fleet is a big big mistake from AF. The BEST J seat is great and when you now fly in a NEV4 seat, you feel like you're back 10-15 years ago. You need a consistency across your product. Customers understand that it takes time to retrofit a whole large fleet like the AF one, but customers do not understand that only something around 50% of the fleet will get the new J seat. You choose an airline for the schedule and the quality of the product. If it like a Russian roulette to know what kind of product we'll have, some customers will not take the risk and will choose an airline offering a consistent product.
Sorry for AF employees here because It is absolutely not my intention to be "rude" with them (and I appreciate a lot the information they are giving), and I enjoy a lot flying AF, but I think they are making a very big mistake here.
 
TYCOON
Posts: 476
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RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:51 am

I may be wrong, but my understanding was the 777s with the Best J seats were dedicated to certain specific routes, reducing the "Russian roulette" to just a handful of services.
I think the same issue may still exist at KL or at IB... Old business class seats still exist on a number of their intercontinental widebodies...
I have been fortunate enough to have flown half a dozen times on the Best J seats with AF over the past year... and in my view it is the best transatlantic business class out there... bar none, and I have flown most of the European and US airlines' international business classes.
 
zoulastar
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:48 pm

RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:36 pm

Quoting goldorak (Reply 63):
OK fair. But so we were told in post #54 that AF decided to stick to the old seat in the new planes to not change the already given orders to Boeing to avoid to pay penalties. But now we learn that AF is spending money to buy new NEV4 seats, and no plan to retrofit those birds ??

Don't worry, no money is spent.  
Quoting goldorak (Reply 63):
I continue to say that it doesn't make any sense. I understand AF needed those new planes now, and that Zodiac is late in their deliveries, but in that case, it could have make more sense to keep the 744 one more year and adjust the delivery of the new 777 to the BEST J seats delivery by Zodiac.
Outside the small "COI config" sub fleet , keeping the NEV4 seat in a large part of the 777 fleet is a big big mistake from AF. The BEST J seat is great and when you now fly in a NEV4 seat, you feel like you're back 10-15 years ago. You need a consistency across your product. Customers understand that it takes time to retrofit a whole large fleet like the AF one, but customers do not understand that only something around 50% of the fleet will get the new J seat. You choose an airline for the schedule and the quality of the product. If it like a Russian roulette to know what kind of product we'll have, some customers will not take the risk and will choose an airline offering a consistent product.
Sorry for AF employees here because It is absolutely not my intention to be "rude" with them (and I appreciate a lot the information they are giving), and I enjoy a lot flying AF, but I think they are making a very big mistake here.

Fair point. I perfectly understand your point of view.
AF now has 43 B77W. 18 are equipped with the new J seats (42% of the fleet). AF had to make a financial choice. At that time, it was just too expensive to retrofit the entire fleet, so a choice was made to have a fleet dedicated to some routes needing first the new J seats. just like TYCOON said it.
But believe me, AF'd have its pockets full of money, we wouldn't have this conversation...  
 
goldorak
Posts: 1452
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: AF Gets Its 70th And Last B777

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:05 pm

Quoting zoulastar (Reply 65):
Fair point. I perfectly understand your point of view.
AF now has 43 B77W. 18 are equipped with the new J seats (42% of the fleet). AF had to make a financial choice. At that time, it was just too expensive to retrofit the entire fleet, so a choice was made to have a fleet dedicated to some routes needing first the new J seats. just like TYCOON said it.
But believe me, AF'd have its pockets full of money, we wouldn't have this conversation...  

Thank you Zoulastar  
Money or no money, I appreciate our conversation  

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