flywrite
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Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:05 pm

Virgin Atlantic is considering setting up an offshoot at London Gatwick that will operate low-cost flights on long-haul routes to compete with the likes of WestJet and Norwegian.

It has suggested that it could use Delta Airbus A330s for the operation.

Full story here: http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/254338/virgin-atlantic-considers-new-low-cost-gatwick-offshoot/
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:39 pm

Quoting flywrite (Thread starter):
It has suggested that it could use Delta Airbus A330s for the operation.

And DL's labor is just going to sit there and take that? What's in it for them?

I get that they mostly aren't unionized... though I can't think of something that'd give them more incentive to become so, than stunts like this.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:43 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):
I get that they mostly aren't unionized... though I can't think of something that'd give them more incentive to become so, than stunts like this.

DL's pilots are unionized. They have been upset at the company in the past because DL was below required minimums in flying in the AF/KL JV (don't know if that issue has been fully resolved yet or not).

I'm sure they would just be elated if DL transferred some of their planes to another low cost airline.
 
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gatibosgru
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:45 pm

Wonder if we'll see any US players on this LC/LH market.
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f4f3a
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:50 pm

What is low cost long haul? I mean vs operation at lgw is pretty low cost already. Planes are high
Density for leisure ops. Is this a case for just a Change in route . Introduce new transatlantic from lgw to match
Norwegian schedule . They could use744 to dump capacity on competing routes.
Perhaps an interline with u2 as both will be in the north terminal from next Jan
 
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Polot
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:57 pm

Quoting f4f3a (Reply 4):
What is low cost long haul? I mean vs operation at lgw is pretty low cost already. Planes are high
Density for leisure ops.

Lower costs by paying employees less than at VS/DL. Think Iberia Express and Iberia.
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:58 pm

I didn't realize that DL would have A333 spares to farm out to Virgin? They have 25 A339s on order and still some 242T A333s being delivered. I guess i find this odd...   
 
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tlecam
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:05 pm

I wasn't sure they'd have any available either. I wonder if they'd take the new ones and give Virgin the older planes? Or give Virgin the new planes?

I wonder what's in this for Delta? Will Virgin move flights from LHR to LGW to open up slots for DL at LHR?
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:06 pm

Quoting flywrite (Thread starter):
It has suggested that it could use Delta Airbus A330s for the operation.

I wasn't going to give any credence to this idea, but the fact that the quote came directly from a DL trans-Atlantic VP is remarkable. Still, the potential labor backlash alone is reason enough for me not to hold my breath.
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:09 pm

Didn't this come up already and it was dismissed as a miss-interpretation?
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:17 pm

Quoting f4f3a (Reply 4):
What is low cost long haul? 
Quoting polot (Reply 5):
Lower costs by paying employees less than at VS/DL.

This is kind of funny.... or sad, depending on how you see it... Whenever there is a new thread about a new LCC we first have to clarify "is it a real new LCC?" or is it just a "lower-cost-by-paying-employees-less-than-at-the-mainline-thing?"
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:28 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):
Quoting flywrite (Thread starter): It has suggested that it could use Delta Airbus A330s for the operation.
And DL's labor is just going to sit there and take that? What's in it for them?

Who's to say it wouldn't be a Song-esque operation which had no effects on employee pay rates? I'm just not reading anything apocalyptic into this, particularly if it helps the JV defend against Norwegian at least not based on this tenuous information.
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:53 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 11):
Who's to say it wouldn't be a Song-esque operation which had no effects on employee pay rates?

Which would be fine, from a labor perspective, if it's using wet-leased DL crews.

But the article doesn't say anything alike that-- or what benefit DL labor would receive in any of this at all, in the face of the seemingly-obvious downside to them. Hence the question.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:56 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):

And DL's labor is just going to sit there and take that? What's in it for them?

DL isn't this stupid. No way.

The pilots are already a hornets nest but right now they are all inside. I can't imagine management walking over to the nest with a baseball bat and hitting it. Even if they do, DALPA isn't going to agree to any more JVs till they get a contract worked out.

Quoting polot (Reply 2):

DL's pilots are unionized. They have been upset at the company in the past because DL was below required minimums in flying in the AF/KL JV (don't know if that issue has been fully resolved yet or not).

The issue was somewhat handled.

Its a rolling measurement so DL/AF/KL/AZ capacity is looked at over a year or two years. The last (and now flying the line) MEC at DALPA screwed the pilots by taking a 30M payment. They did so to rush out the failed TA that included changes to scope that would change the measurements from EASKs to block hours which would put DL in compliance over night. IIRC they are about 5% below the minimums right now.

Also I believe not only did they change to block hours but also gave the company back 2%.

Pretty easy to see why the MEC was mostly replaced.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 11):

Who's to say it wouldn't be a Song-esque operation which had no effects on employee pay rates? I'm just not reading anything apocalyptic into this, particularly if it helps the JV defend against Norwegian at least not based on this tenuous information.

"Any new company would retain the Virgin brand but be run at a lower cost as a different corporate entity with different employee contracts. It could operate with a small fleet of twin-engined widebody equipment transferred across from Delta’s mainline fleet to help lower its operating costs if the go-ahead is given."

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 9):
Didn't this come up already and it was dismissed as a miss-interpretation?

I believe it was. My understanding is it wouldn't be a reduction in shells for DL, they don't have the capacity to give right now, it would be DL either financing the aircraft or DL ordering more 242T planes and sending over some of the 238T Pratt powered planes.

my guess is this doesn't happen. DALPA isn't going to agree to it without equal growth, which the company won't do. On top of that they don't have a contract and the new MEC at DALPA isn't dumb enough to sign an LOA over the issue.
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:04 pm

Quoting f4f3a (Reply 4):
What is low cost long haul?

The problem with the term LCC or "low cost" is that with time the meaning has been twisted. Every single company would be nuts not to have the lower possible cost for any given goods or services as it allows to achieve a lower selling price (attracting more business) or increase your margin (rising your profits).
But any new airline start up would market itself as LowCost as a marketing tool. Because LoCo is "cool" for the consumer. The masses don't realise that the ticket reflects "the price" and not "the cost".

One could go on with several more questions... From Gatwick to where? The US? Caribean? RoW? Where are those slots coming from? Gatwick runway is pretty tight right now.

Quoting f4f3a (Reply 4):
Perhaps an interline with u2 as both will be in the north terminal from next Jan

Well, both participate in the Gatwick connects scheme even when U2 don't offer assistance for connections even between two U2 flights.
I know it is not the same, but at least it is something.

Quoting flywrite (Thread starter):
to compete with the likes of WestJet

One thing I wonder is where would Westjet operate from Jan 17. Easyjet is expected to consolidate operations at North and Virgin should also move North to release lounge capacity. Virgin timetable would not increase pressure on check-in, security and departures at peak times. Those changes and reallocations were planned before WestJet announced LGW service so I wonder why westjet is operating from North and if this will be their permanent home.

Maybe West jet could also comply with these.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):
Quoting flywrite (Thread starter):
It has suggested that it could use Delta Airbus A330s for the operation.

And DL's labor is just going to sit there and take that? What's in it for them?

Well, any airline is able to sell, lease (dry or wet-lease) capacity or even the whole frame to other airlines. As long as those DL workers still have work load assinged, they should be fine. But of course there could always be trouble.
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:08 pm

Quoting Aisak (Reply 14):

Well, any airline is able to sell, lease (dry or wet-lease) capacity or even the whole frame to other airlines. As long as those DL workers still have work load assinged, they should be fine. But of course there could always be trouble.

Yes and no.

Yes DL can buy airplanes for other airlines.
No DL can not just start a JV with that other airline.
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:21 pm

The transatlantic market is likely going to be a bloodbath within a few years.
They're just planning ahead.
This plan is as much DL's as it is VS's
 
by738
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:29 pm

Some of that action would be perfect for GLA too...
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 15):
No DL can not just start a JV with that other airline.

This joint venture / partial ownership already exists. As it would be VS doing the branding & Ops it would seem no negotiation required.

But we have been here before. Virgin Sun, Virgin Holidays, Virgin Atlantic Little Red. Perhaps they should concentrate a bit more on their bread and butter and stop trying to create spin-offs that seem to have all been an abject failure to date.

I also don't get this whole 'low cost' TATL proposition. Marketing spin aside, you can already hop over the pond for c. $700 which for a 7-hour flight in a 'full service' Y cabin is fairly healthy and comparable per hour with the budget airlines both sides of the pond.

Where are they going to save enough money and squeeze more pax in? No complimentary F&B or IFE, ok but these are not big costs anyway so the odd $ here or there is not going to make much difference.

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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:32 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 17):
Some of that action would be perfect for GLA too...

Not likely. This is with a mind to protecting market share at LGW, going up against Norwegian primarily.
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:34 pm

Wait.... Who's to say that DL wouldn't be doing the flying?
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:46 pm

Quoting Damian (Reply 19):
This is with a mind to protecting market share at LGW, going up against Norwegian primarily.

It would also strike the 1st blow in stopping Norwegian setting up long haul plans in the regions. Throwing some random plans:


Aircraft 1: 3 weekly BHX-MCO, 3 weekly GLA-MCO and weekly BHX-LAS
Aircraft 2: 2 weeky EDI-BOS, 2 weekly BHX-BOS, 2 weekly BHX-LAX, weekly BFS-BOS

And no, I've got no valid basis for those routes apart from they are the type of routes I could see Norwegian doing with BHX being very much underserved transatlantically.
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:46 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 13):
my guess is this doesn't happen. DALPA isn't going to agree to it without equal growth

  


Quoting Aisak (Reply 14):
As long as those DL workers still have work load assinged, they should be fine.

   It does *not* work like that...


Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 18):
This joint venture / partial ownership already exists. As it would be VS doing the branding & Ops it would seem no negotiation required.

This is not congruent to anything we've thus far seen in one of their J/Vs: DL assets operated in the branding of a foreign carrier. Almost no chance for it to be treated as just another aspect of a J/V, without further negotiation/agreement with labor.


Quoting B757capt (Reply 20):
Who's to say that DL wouldn't be doing the flying?

No one yet. But what's noticeable is the absence of that very such statement-- which one would think should be at the forefront of any public release like this, as it could unnecessarily stir up labor.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:05 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 13):
DL isn't this stupid. No way.

The pilots are already a hornets nest but right now they are all inside. I can't imagine management walking over to the nest with a baseball bat and hitting it. Even if they do, DALPA isn't going to agree to any more JVs till they get a contract worked out.

Well, the flight attendants have no recourse in this matter. The only thing the FAs have is being had. The pilots have a contract, while the flight attendants are being smoke-screened with worthless Skybucks and endless weiner parties at IFS.
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johnclipper
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:19 pm

What happened to NW FA's union after the merger. NW FAs were unionized, right?
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:36 pm

So what do you call a low-cost Virgin?

Gotta be a punchline there somewhere.
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:46 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 16):
This plan is as much DL's as it is VS's

Agreed. And DOT's approval of DY's operating certificate is no coincidence either I bet.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 15):
No DL can not just start a JV with that other airline.

How sad is it that role employees can stop a company from expanding its business.

tortugamon
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:47 pm

Call me stupid, but Im really struggling to understand this...

Virgin created a new company last year to operate flights from LGW to the Caribbean, with a seperate AOC and to have lower staffing costs, and now struggling to see how this is different or what is actually the difference.

Are these going to be additional flights to what is already operated by Virgin from LGW or just existing routes falling under this LCC brand. Does this mean we will have three Virgin Atlantic companies - the main airline, the Caribbean LGW operating and now a separate LCC brand?!

If this is going to be a true LCC long haul operation, I wonder if they could look at 9 abreast on the A330 like Air Transat and what Monarch use to fly? Maybe it could be called Virgin Atlantic Lite!

If this is going to be additional flights from what is already flown and are using Delta metal, that means they will need more slots and that could be difficult to come by at LGW.

[Edited 2016-04-25 14:51:34]
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:55 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):
How sad is it that role employees can stop a company from expanding its business.

Not very sad at all, for anyone who's been on the receiving end of being replaced by lower cost alternatives of equal (or even lesser) skill.

Not that I care. But I can empathize.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:07 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 28):
Not very sad at all, for anyone who's been on the receiving end of being replaced by lower cost alternatives of equal (or even lesser) skill.

And should employees be able to hold their company's hostage and prevent them from making positive decisions for their shareholders because of this fear?

If they are truly more skillful and presumably the flying public values that skill then they should be able to be paid appropriately without fear and without this corporate hostage taking.

tortugamon
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:19 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 29):
If they are truly more skillful and presumably the flying public values that skill then they should be able to be paid appropriately without fear and without this corporate hostage taking.

The flying public DOESN'T value that skill. The thing is, they'll never notice a difference until something goes wrong. That being said, I do think there needs to be less of an adversarial relationship between airlines and their labor groups in this day and age, the constant conflict is absurd.
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:22 pm

How would Virgin operate a LCC with a premium product like DLs?

Quoting smokeybandit (Reply 25):
So what do you call a low-cost Virgin?

Gotta be a punchline there somewhere.

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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:49 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 18):
But we have been here before. Virgin Sun, Virgin Holidays, Virgin Atlantic Little Red. Perhaps they should concentrate a bit more on their bread and butter and stop trying to create spin-offs that seem to have all been an abject failure to date.

Virgin Atlantic 789's at LHR, Virgin *insert new branding here* A330's at LGW/MAN/GLA? Aren't some of the A330's already operated by a separate company? It's good that DL are getting to grips with VS, as deep as SRB's pockets may be, those losses were not sustainable.
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:52 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 22):

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 13):
my guess is this doesn't happen. DALPA isn't going to agree to it without equal growth

  

Indeed. The only exception would be if DL just builds these Virgin LCC trips into existing DL pilot lines. In other words, the JFK 330 base would have some trips that did something like JFK-LGW-MCO-LGW-JFK. The same pilot could pick up a 3-day BCN the next week on a plane painted in DL colors. The paint on the plane would ultimately not matter as long as the block hours stay on the DL APLA contract. But I agree 100% there there will be absolutely 0 discussion of transferring any A330s anywhere outside DL pilot's own work group - especially in this political context.

But even this is totally far fetched due to DL being short widebodies to begin with. I would be years before they would have the frames to fill in for Virgin at LGW.
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:53 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 31):
Every religious girl I went to high school with.

They'll need a color scheme. How about plaid?
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:07 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 30):
The flying public DOESN'T value that skill. The thing is, they'll never notice a difference until something goes wrong.

I think the flying public does value that skill in the same way in which airlines are punished by the flying public after an accident and skillful pilots are the best thing an airline can have to prevent those accidents. There certainly is a value there. I don't see pilots as a commodity nor do I think DL thinks that way.

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 30):
That being said, I do think there needs to be less of an adversarial relationship between airlines and their labor groups in this day and age, the constant conflict is absurd.

Fully agree there.

tortugamon
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:20 pm

So what's the point of this when DL knows that the pilots won't agree to it? There has to be an underlying motive, and if it's a negotiation tactic, I don't see how it's a good one.
 
AAMDanny
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:30 pm

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 27):

Call me stupid, but Im really struggling to understand this...

Virgin created a new company last year to operate flights from LGW to the Caribbean, with a seperate AOC and to have lower staffing costs, and now struggling to see how this is different or what is actually the difference.

Yes Virgin created a second AOC but it terms of the operation it's staffed by the normal crews on the same normal contracts as VS. They created VAIL (Virgin Atlantic International Limited) to step in incase VS ever go bankrupt as VS mortgaged some of it's valuable LHR slot's to get some cash in to bank. And it was a condition of finance agreement as a safety net incase anything ever happened to VS.

Absolutely nothing is different at all in relation to VS and VAIL flights operating from LGW. The VAIL AOC is used on BGI/UVF/ANU/TAB/GND flights operated by the two A333's at LGW. The only difference with VAIL flights is it is 'operated by Virgin Atlantic International Airways' and that's as far as it goes.

VS...... *COULD* in theory use the VAIL OAC to start up a low cost subsidiary... they could move over the leisure routes they fly out of LGW/MAN and seasonally from BFS/GLA over to this new subsidiary also, but it's all hypothetical.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:32 pm

Quoting johnclipper (Reply 24):
What happened to NW FA's union after the merger. NW FAs were unionized, right?

The contract that NWA FA's had in place blocked the outsourcing plan they had in place prior to the merger.

As far as post merger goes, this is different and the argument between PMNW or PMDL is irrelevant. This affects everyone. To US flight crews, theres no acceptable level of farming out flying (nevermind to an alliance), but a partner shell company that your company owns, and uses the very equipment you and your peers were flying on. Maybe the DLFA's will be fine with it since they probably thought that Song racket was such a success. But it won't sit well with the pro-union crowd, and it shouldn't.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 36):
So what's the point of this when DL knows that the pilots won't agree to it? There has to be an underlying motive, and if it's a negotiation tactic, I don't see how it's a good one.

it could very well be just something to get the pilots to negotiating table. Something to get them to agree to less reward provisions they adamantly oppose(i.e. lower profit sharing and more operation friendly schedule "enhancements". I don't have any inside information, but it certainly sounds like the pilots are not going to let the company have such givebacks while they're announcing billions upon billions in profits, and then telling them, we want to drop your profit sharing by 50% in favor of a 25% pay raise. They're not as dumb and easily fooled as some of the non-contract rubes they work alongside with.

[Edited 2016-04-25 16:38:12]
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gilesdavies
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:54 pm

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 37):
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 27):

Call me stupid, but Im really struggling to understand this...

Virgin created a new company last year to operate flights from LGW to the Caribbean, with a seperate AOC and to have lower staffing costs, and now struggling to see how this is different or what is actually the difference.

Yes Virgin created a second AOC but it terms of the operation it's staffed by the normal crews on the same normal contracts as VS. They created VAIL (Virgin Atlantic International Limited) to step in incase VS ever go bankrupt as VS mortgaged some of it's valuable LHR slot's to get some cash in to bank. And it was a condition of finance agreement as a safety net incase anything ever happened to VS.

Absolutely nothing is different at all in relation to VS and VAIL flights operating from LGW. The VAIL AOC is used on BGI/UVF/ANU/TAB/GND flights operated by the two A333's at LGW. The only difference with VAIL flights is it is 'operated by Virgin Atlantic International Airways' and that's as far as it goes.

VS...... *COULD* in theory use the VAIL OAC to start up a low cost subsidiary... they could move over the leisure routes they fly out of LGW/MAN and seasonally from BFS/GLA over to this new subsidiary also, but it's all hypothetical.


Thank you for explaining that. Much appreciated.
 
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:22 am

Quoting johnclipper (Reply 24):
What happened to NW FA's union after the merger. NW FAs were unionized, right?

It went away when they lost a vote to continue union representation of the craft, as mandated under the Railway Labor Act. The pilots continued union representation. All other (major?) work groups that had elections favored no representation.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:21 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 29):
And should employees be able to hold their company's hostage and prevent them from making positive decisions for their shareholders because of this fear?

In some circumstances, I'd say yes, they should.


Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 36):
So what's the point of this when DL knows that the pilots won't agree to it? There has to be an underlying motive, and if it's a negotiation tactic, I don't see how it's a good one.

Agreed 100%
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:32 am

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 18):

This joint venture / partial ownership already exists. As it would be VS doing the branding & Ops it would seem no negotiation required.

Nope not how that works at all. In this case its a new airline.

Quoting B757capt (Reply 20):

Wait.... Who's to say that DL wouldn't be doing the flying?

everything that has ever happened in this industry from the day it started?

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 23):

Tell us how you really feel jet.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):

How sad is it that role employees can stop a company from expanding its business.

Yeah it is sad. Those ass hole employees....trying to not be homeless and all. Who do they think they are? They should live under a bridge or get paid minimum wage

as long as you get your coke and get there safely and on time. Monkeys could do airline employees jobs.




 
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 29):

And should employees be able to hold their company's hostage and prevent them from making positive decisions for their shareholders because of this fear?

You clearly don't understand the term negations

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 29):

If they are truly more skillful and presumably the flying public values that skill then they should be able to be paid appropriately without fear and without this corporate hostage taking.


You also clearly don't work in this industry at least on the line. Maybe an office.

Or you just live in a world of rainbows unicorns and money trees.
 
VS11
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:19 am

This will be a EU-based company so I don't expect DL staff to be involved in operating the flights. Maybe register in Ireland and have staffing like DY. From the VP statements it looks like they are considering some ideas as a response to DY but he is ruling out a sub-brand - a diluted VS product. But the thinking is clear - develop a transatlantic product for the masses, largely for the point-to-point travelers.

I am starting to feel worried about DY. They are going to be facing a massive response from the established carriers, which have a cost advantage now due to lower oil and older but substantially paid-off planes. But I do admit it is getting pretty exciting.  
 
coolian2
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:38 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 42):
Maybe an office.

His first concern is shareholders. That should tell you everything.

I don't really fancy my safety being compromised or my crew being on foodstamps just so some rich Wall Street tool can be a little bit richer.
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LAX772LR
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:42 am

Quoting VS11 (Reply 43):
I am starting to feel worried about DY. They are going to be facing a massive response from the established carriers,

Well, there's that.... but there's also the fact that the longterm outcome/viability of DU's model is still yet to be seen.

IINM, it's never even experienced a significant market downturn yet. Or an oil spike.
Heck, I wonder if it would've even survived the 787 grounding, back in the day.

That's not to say it couldn't, but DU's model is still relatively new and arguably untested.

DY is likely here to stay-- but DU, who can say?
I may thrive, or it may eventually fall apart regardless as to what the global carriers do.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
VS11
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:26 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 45):
there's also the fact that the longterm outcome/viability of DU's model is still yet to be seen

They have a serious operation in Europe, very similar to Ryanair. The TATL flights are only a portion of their business. Even if that flops, there is no reason to expect the intra-European flights will be a flop too.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 45):
DU's model is still relatively new and arguably untested.

If you are referring to the TATL flights, it is not that new. The past 10-15 years have seen much less competition on TATL routes than in previous decades. In fact, speaking of LGW there were People's Express, Braniff, Laker Airways and probably others that used to have LCC type of service, mostly on B747s. Virgin Atlantic itself started in the same fashion, flying from LGW to EWR, also on B747. One could argue that these days TATL competition is long overdue.

You are correct though that the ULCC model has not been tested in long-haul - the bare bone fare with charges for everything. One basic challenge is that when everything is added, it is not that much cheaper than legacy carriers. And many people are locked in frequent flyer programs which makes a difference, at least to me, as you rake in thousands of miles on a single TATL trip.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:36 am

Quoting VS11 (Reply 46):
They have a serious operation in Europe, very similar to Ryanair. The TATL flights are only a portion of their business.

Please pay attention, I said DU, not DY.


Quoting VS11 (Reply 46):
If you are referring to the TATL flights, it is not that new. The past 10-15 years have seen much less competition on TATL routes than in previous decades. In fact, speaking of LGW there were People's Express, Braniff, Laker Airways and probably others that used to have LCC type of service, mostly on B747s. Virgin Atlantic itself started in the same fashion, flying from LGW to EWR, also on B747. One could argue that these days TATL competition is long overdu

I wouldn't call DU's model similar to the likes of PeoplExpress et al, and the market between then and now is vastly different (regulation, competition, etc).
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
f4f3a
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:23 am

Quoting ' so what do you call a low cost virgin?'

An easy virgin
 
Armodeen
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RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:30 am

Quoting TedToToe (Reply 32):

Spot on I would say. This summer there will be a pair of A333s operatic from MAN alongside the regular pair of B744s, if they continue the extra summer seasonal flying as well as the new routes, the number of A333s at MAN rises to three. It wouldn't surprise me to see more and more A330s divested to the regions as the 789s continue to arrive to fill the LHR routes.

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