LAXtoATL
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:55 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:44 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 42):
Nope not how that works at all. In this case its a new airline.

As long as it's a wholly-owned subsidiary of VS, DL will still own 49% of it.
 
richardw
Posts: 3168
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:52 am

Quoting VS11 (Reply 46):
One basic challenge is that when everything is added, it is not that much cheaper than legacy carriers.

Yes, but if the product I can get by choice is better than a legacy carrier, with not much difference in total cost, I'll go for the no frills airline.
I'll pay extra for a better breakfast before arriving at LGW from the US, with great larger coffee, fresh orange juice and a toasted eggy ciabatta, better than the now standard small filter coffee, concentrated orange juice and sugar overload muffin.

I'll pay extra for a 2-X-2 cabin with an 18" or wider seat and 32.5" or longer pitch.

It'd not be difficult to offer better than a legacy carrier economy and collect significant extra revenues.
 
Beatyair
Posts: 856
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:09 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Bring back "little Red"? Maybe as a low cost airline might work for or some short runs. I don't think you have to use a Delta A330, there is enough used one being tossed into the market. KLM has some 200's that are retiring from there fleet.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12556
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:12 pm

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 8):
Still, the potential labor backlash alone is reason enough for me not to hold my breath.

That's not a problem start an Irish company and pop the planes on the Irish register, if it works for Norwegian it will work for anyone else.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6609
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:16 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 53):
That's not a problem start an Irish company and pop the planes on the Irish register, if it works for Norwegian it will work for anyone else.

That's not the issue. At the risk of repetition, Delta planes shall be flown by Delta pilots. Period. If VS wants to buy used widebodies (at market prices) from DL, fine. Let's see how DL pilots react to any significant block hours being taken away.
 
TW870
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:36 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 53):
That's not a problem start an Irish company and pop the planes on the Irish register, if it works for Norwegian it will work for anyone else.

It is legally possible, but the question is whether or not it is politically possible. Lorenzo threatened to do a similar thing in the 1980s with aircraft flagged in (if I recall correctly) the Bahamas to get around U.S. labor law in a similar way that cruise ship operators do. Between labor activists and regulators, you have big obstacles to doing so, and it has not happened to date. In an era when there is big backlash on both sides of the aisle (and both sides of the Atlantic) against corporate inversions and offshoring, Irish flagged A330s would fan those flames.
 
Sightseer
Posts: 982
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:57 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 53):
That's not a problem start an Irish company and pop the planes on the Irish register, if it works for Norwegian it will work for anyone else.

I was speaking more from a labor relations perspective than a legality perspective. Legally there don't (yet) appear to be any issues, but if this announcement is made I would be shocked if it didn't kick off a union drive among at least the flight attendants.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:09 pm

DL pilots will launch into the stratosphere. Those f/a's that are sitting on the fence will sign a card for union representation. VERY poor move if indeed it is true.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8348
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:25 pm

Quoting VS11 (Reply 43):
develop a transatlantic product for the masses, largely for the point-to-point travelers.

You are describing VS from Gatwick.

This is virgin lowering costs and service to ensure viability of leisure routes.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:32 pm

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 23):
Well, the flight attendants have no recourse in this matter. The only thing the FAs have is being had. The pilots have a contract, while the flight attendants are being smoke-screened with worthless Skybucks and endless weiner parties at IFS.

Cue the IAM Hymn Singing and DL trashing...right on time.

Quoting johnclipper (Reply 24):
What happened to NW FA's union after the merger. NW FAs were unionized, right?

The union was kicked to the curb...again.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6644
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:55 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 57):
DL pilots will launch into the stratosphere. Those f/a's that are sitting on the fence will sign a card for union representation. VERY poor move if indeed it is true.

Hey, I welcome it. They're finally starting to show their true colors.
Made from jets!
 
willd
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:38 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:02 pm

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 37):
Yes Virgin created a second AOC but it terms of the operation it's staffed by the normal crews on the same normal contracts as VS. They created VAIL (Virgin Atlantic International Limited) to step in incase VS ever go bankrupt as VS mortgaged some of it's valuable LHR slot's to get some cash in to bank. And it was a condition of finance agreement as a safety net incase anything ever happened to VS.

Absolutely nothing is different at all in relation to VS and VAIL flights operating from LGW. The VAIL AOC is used on BGI/UVF/ANU/TAB/GND flights operated by the two A333's at LGW. The only difference with VAIL flights is it is 'operated by Virgin Atlantic International Airways' and that's as far as it goes.

VS...... *COULD* in theory use the VAIL OAC to start up a low cost subsidiary... they could move over the leisure routes they fly out of LGW/MAN and seasonally from BFS/GLA over to this new subsidiary also, but it's all hypothetical.

Couldn't have put it better myself. A lovely summary in laymans terms of security and the rather complicated finance transaction VS did last year.
 
LAXtoATL
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:55 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:08 pm

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 60):

They're finally starting to show their true colors.

What are those true colors??? Trying to maintain a viable business so that employees have a job to come to everyday?
A business has to respond to competition. As long as no employee is let go as a result, I have a hard time understanding why labor would want to intentionally prevent their company from putting the most competitive offering in the marketplace as possible.
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 6685
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:17 pm

Quoting smokeybandit (Reply 25):
So what do you call a low-cost Virgin?

A depreciated Virgin?   
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12837
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:42 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 62):
I have a hard time understanding why labor would want to intentionally prevent their company from putting the most competitive offering in the marketplace as possible.

Probably because you seem to be automatically conflating "cheapest to the company" to "most competitive" -- when from labor's perspective, that might not be the case. And understandably so.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:31 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 62):

What are those true colors??? Trying to maintain a viable business so that employees have a job to come to everyday?
A business has to respond to competition. As long as no employee is let go as a result, I have a hard time understanding why labor would want to intentionally prevent their company from putting the most competitive offering in the marketplace as possible.

You are an American and you are advocating outsourcing jobs to foreign nations? Those are jobs that should go to Americans. US metal, US jobs.

[Edited 2016-04-26 14:32:55]
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5333
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:03 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 50):

It doesn't matter. Its still a new airline. It still requires a new agreement which won't happen as long as DALPA/DL are in section 6. The MEC already knows they will all be recalled seconds after a LOA is signed that gives away more international flying.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 59):

Who said anything about the IAM?

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 62):

so you toss the junior people under the bus as well the in industry? All the could be new hires right under the bus?

So which is it for you? high timer or management?

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 64):

exactly. Funny thing about it is, I bet if it was LAXtoATL getting outsourced a different tune would be flowing.
 
LAXtoATL
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:55 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:59 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 65):
You are an American and you are advocating outsourcing jobs to foreign nations? Those are jobs that should go to Americans. US metal, US jobs.

No. I'm advocating a stronger American company can better preserve existing jobs versus a weaker company possibly having to downsize.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 66):
It doesn't matter. Its still a new airline. It still requires a new agreement which won't happen as long as DALPA/DL are in section 6. The MEC already knows they will all be recalled seconds after a LOA is signed that gives away more international flying.

I'm not discussing JV operations. Delta already owns 49% of VS (the entity). If VS creates a wholly-owned subsidiary airline (which DALPA has no say in), Delta still owns a reps 49% that airline as part of its equity stake in VS.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 66):
so you toss the junior people under the bus as well the in industry? All the could be new hires right under the bus?

Junior people? No. Just the opposite.
Possible new hires? Sure.
I rather protect existing jobs versus risking those jobs in a downsize situation. The ability to respond to competitive forces allows the company to remain strong and retain its existing workforce.

Aviation is not a US industry, it is a global industry. The likes of EK, QR, TK, Norwegian etc. are going to disappear they will continue to grow and multiple. And they economic advantages that US carries must compete with in the marketplace.
Note that all three US carriers are cutting intl capacity this year while these carriers are growing significantly. You can ignore it if you want, but I believe that is the best way to watch American jobs disappear.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5333
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:21 pm

FWIW, DALPA has addressed this issue. It was a miscommunication as expected.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 67):

I'm not discussing JV operations. Delta already owns 49% of VS (the entity). If VS creates a wholly-owned subsidiary airline (which DALPA has no say in), Delta still owns a reps 49% that airline as part of its equity stake in VS.

okay cool. That doesn't really mean anything to anyone though.

DL wouldn't help start an airline not to have a JV with it in this case.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 67):

Junior people? No. Just the opposite.

I'd love to hear how its just the opposite. Keeping people at a lower QOL while management makes billions off of lower labor doesn't sound like you are really protecting anyone.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 67):
Possible new hires? Sure.

which means tossing junior people under the bus. If you have no new hirers then you keep junior people junior for longer(50x in the world without pension thus senior people stay much longer).

Do you understand airlines most use seniority so by causing stagnation you are in fact tossing junior people under the bus?

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 67):

I rather protect existing jobs versus risking those jobs in a downsize situation. The ability to respond to competitive forces allows the company to remain strong and retain its existing workforce.

so you want to see everyone stagnate and the junior people stay on lower aircraft, lower paying lines, worse trips, worse jobs and lower paying jobs. oh and on top of it, in this case, we are talking about dumping higher paying lines and aircraft on top of it.

how are you not tossing junior people under the bus again?

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 67):

Aviation is not a US industry, it is a global industry. The likes of EK, QR, TK, Norwegian etc. are going to disappear they will continue to grow and multiple. And they economic advantages that US carries must compete with in the marketplace.

and if this how the industry really worked you might be right. US airlines have a little bit of a history of outsourcing just to do it. I know of times where they have outsourced at a higher cost but had "other reasons".

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 67):

Note that all three US carriers are cutting intl capacity this year while these carriers are growing significantly. You can ignore it if you want, but I believe that is the best way to watch American jobs disappear.

at some point it becomes stupid to "save jobs" if those people have to live on food stamps to work those jobs.

even more so when we are talking about companies reporting 20%+ margins. Lets talk about outsourcing if the industry (not just DL) gets it act together and still can't handle down turns.
 
VS11
Posts: 1519
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:43 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 47):

Please pay attention, I said DU, not DY.

I did see that but thought it was a typo. Are you referring to Hemus Air or another airline? I was talking about DY - Norwegian.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 65):
You are an American and you are advocating outsourcing jobs to foreign nations? Those are jobs that should go to Americans. US metal, US jobs.

This actually is not about an American company. DL at most will provide some of its A330s to either VS or a new company if they decide to go that way. This is not about outsourcing American jobs - this is about stopping DY from growing too much at LGW. DL is not really interested in LGW even though it would likely be affected if DY becomes too popular. In the end of the day, it is about British carriers protecting their turf. American carriers abandoned LGW on their own so making a huge fuss about this potential project seems out of place.
 
User avatar
delta747tlv
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:12 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:13 am

Delta issued an internal statement that this is false, nothing to see here, move along.
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:26 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 42):
Yeah it is sad. Those ass hole employees....trying to not be homeless and all. Who do they think they are? They should live under a bridge or get paid minimum wage
as long as you get your coke and get there safely and on time. Monkeys could do airline employees jobs.

Exaggerate much? Those employees accepted $1.5 Billion in profit sharing last year and some of the highest paid in the industry with most pilots making over $100,000. Suggested that if DL launches a new entity based at LGW that somehow the 80,000 employees will be forced down to minimum wage and will have to live under a bridge is silly.

If DL employees want to tie corporate's hands with launching new entities and making new joint ventures then maybe they shouldn't accept that $1.5 Billion in profit sharing that those decisions help generate.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 44):
His first concern is shareholders. That should tell you everything.
I don't really fancy my safety being compromised or my crew being on foodstamps just so some rich Wall Street tool can be a little bit richer.

This is talking about another JV not DL crews in domiciled in the US. Even suggesting food stamps is as silly as above. And those shareholders...are you and me. DL is widely held in index funds across the globe. If you invest in the stock market at all you could very well have exposure regardless of who you work for.

I like free enterprise. I do not favor an employment system that is similar to France. I don't think employees should be able to hold a company hostage until they get their own palms greased. Spare me the 'I need to feed my family line' - Incomes are solid at DL by any standard.

I wish this situation was a hell of a lot less hostile and that goes for both sides. If corporate didn't use Chap 11 to wipe out previous agreements with employees then I think this would be less hostile. Instead we have the Legacy carriers that we deserve instead of what could have been. Sad.

tortugamon
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12837
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:52 am

Quoting VS11 (Reply 69):
I did see that but thought it was a typo. Are you referring to Hemus Air or another airline? I was talking about DY - Norwegian.

I know who you are talking about, but the inverse doesn't seem to be the case:
Norwegian Air Shuttle (DY), Norwegian Long Haul (DU), and Norwegian Air International (D8) are all distinct operations within the Norwegian Air group.
Hemus Air hasn't used the "DU" code in over half a decade.

[Edited 2016-04-26 19:21:16]
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5333
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:00 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 71):

Exaggerate much?

nope. Maybe you need to look into the last ~20-25 years for airline employees and see just how far they have fallen.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 71):
Those employees accepted $1.5 Billion in profit sharing last year and some of the highest paid in the industry with most pilots making over $100,000.

wait just one second. Tell the real story.
How did profitshare come about at DL?

I'll give you a hint, it has something to do with the pension/bankruptcy word.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 71):
Suggested that if DL launches a new entity based at LGW that somehow the 80,000 employees will be forced down to minimum wage and will have to live under a bridge is silly.

it is death by 1000 cuts.

look at how well majors treat contract employees. Be it in the RJ industry or vendors. You don't think with unlimited outsourcing they wouldn't do the same for mainline? Do you really think any management at any company gives out of the goodness of their hearts? True free markets don't work. Just look at all the safety protections the US has compared to places like the UAE, most of those came because of unions like ALPA.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 71):

If DL employees want to tie corporate's hands with launching new entities and making new joint ventures then maybe they shouldn't accept that $1.5 Billion in profit sharing that those decisions help generate.

And maybe the US airlines in general should restore all the cuts airline employees have taken over the last 25 years....plus inflation and cost of living. I bet you won't find anyone who wouldn't make that trade.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 71):

I like free enterprise. I do not favor an employment system that is similar to France. I don't think employees should be able to hold a company hostage until they get their own palms greased. Spare me the 'I need to feed my family line' - Incomes are solid at DL by any standard.

Just looking at the pay rate of a job is a really stupid way to live life.
It is equally important to look at things like seniority, aircraft type, being about to fly a line or being on reserve etc. etc. Quality of life is more than pay. As a part of that, another JV with any airline without protections can completely kill QOL. This is one of the biggest grippes I have heard from the pilots. They have lost a lot of wide body jobs to outsourcing via JVs. You can just look at DL's Euro network 5 years ago and see all the flying that has been lost.

I have never heard a pilot say they want to handy cap the company. Most DL employees are also DL owners (DL has given out stock bounces a few times.) Plus profit-sharing a huge way to beef up the 401K. Its all about being fair and smart.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 71):

I wish this situation was a hell of a lot less hostile and that goes for both sides. If corporate didn't use Chap 11 to wipe out previous agreements with employees then I think this would be less hostile. Instead we have the Legacy carriers that we deserve instead of what could have been. Sad.

You clearly like the chap 11 process. Stop jumping sides. Either you don't like contracts and protections or you do.

and FWIW DL has the best relations with its employees by far. The pilots have yet to be hostile over a JV.

Having said that, it would be amazingly stupid to agree to ANY LOA when a union is in section 6. It completely gives up any leverage you have. That is for the company and the union.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3638
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:20 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 68):
FWIW, DALPA has addressed this issue. It was a miscommunication as expected.
Quoting Delta747TLV (Reply 70):
Delta issued an internal statement that this is false, nothing to see here, move along.

Hardly. Ed didn't even completely deny it. Sounded like a company caught with its paints down and trying to cover up.
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:01 pm

Quoting Delta747TLV (Reply 70):

Delta issued an internal statement that this is false, nothing to see here, move along.

I'm guessing that most of you have missed this post AND the statement made by DL, either on purpose or by accident  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:34 pm

Quoting Delta747TLV (Reply 70):

Delta issued an internal statement that this is false, nothing to see here, move along.

Did most of you miss this post OR did you miss THIS, which was in the link to the original article:


“Reports of Virgin Atlantic plans for a low-cost offshoot are purely speculative," the airline confirmed in response to the article. "Our focus remains on ensuring we have the right aircraft flying to the destinations our customers most want to travel to,” a Virgin Atlantic spokeswoman added.

While Virgin Atlantic seemingly suggests this project may remain a consideration, Delta has denied any plans to develop any new Transatlantic venture. "Following Chairman Malone’s conversations with incoming CEO Ed Bastian, assurances were given that there are categorically no plans to execute any transfer of Delta assets to any low-cost carrier operation," it said in a statement.

According to Delta management: “Delta has no plans to start a low-cost Transatlantic operation. Delta remains competitive on the Transatlantic and in so doing continually evaluates the markets it serves. Delta operates non-stop service to London Heathrow and Manchester from the United States and will start non-stop service to Edinburgh in May 2016.”


Sounds to me like the speculation was born and died, all within the first post.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 60):

Hey, I welcome it. They're finally starting to show their true colors.

I can imagine that you're SO disappointed, now.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6644
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:45 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 75):
Quoting Delta747TLV (Reply 70):

Delta issued an internal statement that this is false, nothing to see here, move along.

I'm guessing that most of you have missed this post AND the statement made by DL, either on purpose or by accident  

No, we all saw it, but most if not all just don't believe the denial. If this had been a small, less-detailed piece with a nameless source, it would certainly be ignored by most. But the fact that it included a name, and an innocuous name at that, Nat Peiper, definitely raises the skeptical level. Mr Peiper is not exactly a household or a public name, and really, only Delta employees would know his name. The fact that the article says that it's Virgin who will run this "airline" and Delta is the one commenting on it speaks volumes. It basically says that Delta is behind it and is getting Virgin to do the dirty deed.
Made from jets!
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5333
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:05 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 74):

how would you know what Ed had to say about it if you don't work for DL?

hmmmmmmmm
 
cokepopper
Posts: 507
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 9:44 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:14 pm

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 77):

According to some on your side of the family, the sky has been falling since you
Have been acquired. I'm sure you are quite disappointed that this story is bogus.

I wouldn't be surprised if the origins of this story somehow came from the IAM to try
And stir things up to get their failed attempt some life.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5333
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:25 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 76):

I can imagine that you're SO disappointed, now.
Quoting cokepopper (Reply 79):

What is it with you guys?

Damn, not everyone has to think working at a company is great. Jet is allowed an opinion just like you are. You don't or you do like unions, as long as you have facts to back it up then everyone needs to play nicely. The worst thing some of the south side people do is try to ram how f'in great the company is. Some people don't view it that way, let them have their opinion.

and both of you might want to look at Anderson's history at NW with the FAs. Him and Steeland both tried some bad stuff that will obviously make any exNW FA a bit skeptical of not having any protection from management.


More importantly can we stop with the south vs north thing? Hate to break it to you but a large part of south FAs have noted for unions too. Just like a large amount of north FAs have voted against a union.

Alright, getting off my soap box now.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3638
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:37 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 76):
Sounds to me like the speculation was born and died, all within the first post.

They said there were no plans to de-hub MEM or CVG, too...

They haven't denied the existence of the article, so we can assume the article is not a fabrication. They didn't say he simply misspoke and meant something else. It's pretty clear that something got out in the media that should not have. Otherwise you don't need immediate clarifications.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 78):
how would you know what Ed had to say about it if you don't work for DL?

You don't need to be a privileged person to read the quotes when they're posted on public websites.
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:43 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 73):
nope. Maybe you need to look into the last ~20-25 years for airline employees and see just how far they have fallen.

Are you suggesting there are fewer US employees of airlines now than there was 25 years ago?

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 73):
look at how well majors treat contract employees. Be it in the RJ industry or vendors. You don't think with unlimited outsourcing they wouldn't do the same for mainline?

I am not suggesting unlimited outsourcing is ok. I am suggesting that employees shouldn't be able to prevent a company from launching a new JV overseas.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 73):
Just looking at the pay rate of a job is a really stupid way to live life.
It is equally important to look at things like seniority, aircraft type, being about to fly a line or being on reserve etc. etc

Well the pay seems damn good. Good pay helps with quality of life. If employees were able to move around more freely without worrying about seniority rules then I am sure some airlines that have the best quality of life can attract better talent more easily.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 73):
This is one of the biggest grippes I have heard from the pilots. They have lost a lot of wide body jobs to outsourcing via JVs. You can just look at DL's Euro network 5 years ago and see all the flying that has been lost.

But why are they losing those routes? Does it have to do with European pilots willing to work for less and the flying public has accepted these foreign airline as being similar or higher quality? Its not surprising that the legacies like these metal neutral JVs when they know if they operate the flight with their staff they won't make as much. The higher pay and the profit sharing isn't without consequences.

I personally really like what DL is doing lately. I will fly them across the pond over almost anyone else right now.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 73):
You clearly like the chap 11 process. Stop jumping sides. Either you don't like contracts and protections or you do.

Or maybe this issue is more complex and isn't so black and white. I think chapter 11 is generally a benefit to taxpayers because it sets the rules for dealing with creditors in times of hardship but I think airlines have abused this benefit with AA being the latest/greatest example of this abuse. And much of that abuse has hurt taxpayers but certainly airline employees who have had to take on pay cuts and boatloads of pension/benefit cuts.

But I also think there is a reason airlines like VX, B6, WN, NK, DY, AS can grow as quickly as they are now is partially because the legacy model of seniority and restrictions and mainline vs regional and staff who aren't empowered because its just about the years they have put in instead of how good they are at their job; and all of these antiquated rules are hurting the legacies from competing with these other airlines.

It just makes me think about Eddie Rickenbacker.

DL is making me believe that legacies can compete. I hope the employees remain the reason why that's possible not prevent it from being so.

tortugamon
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:21 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 81):
They haven't denied the existence of the article, so we can assume the article is not a fabrication. They didn't say he simply misspoke and meant something else. It's pretty clear that something got out in the media that should not have. Otherwise you don't need immediate clarifications.

What was said in the internal memo was that the news story was ERRONEUS. Of course, you don't have access to that, so not being familiar with it is understandable.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 80):
What is it with you guys?

What is it with YOU? We have just as much right to criticize someone as you seem to like to do.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5333
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:39 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 82):

Are you suggesting there are fewer US employees of airlines now than there was 25 years ago?

well lets compare pre-9/11 to mergers for the big three
AA is down about 60,000 employees when compared to AA/HP/US at that time(~00-02). That is the size of pre-merger AA.
UA is down about 51,000 employees when compared to UA/CO at that time(~00-02). ~10K LARGER than pre-merger UA
DL is down about 46,000 employees when compared to DL/NW at that time(~00-02). That is about the same size as pre-merger DL
So you tell me. Do you think employment is down a little bit? Sure those jobs are there but most of them have been sent off to vendors making 7-10 bucks an hour.

Think of it this way, AA could completely go out of business and it still will be about 50K employees short of the losses after 9/11.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 82):

I am not suggesting unlimited outsourcing is ok. I am suggesting that employees shouldn't be able to prevent a company from launching a new JV overseas.

Oh so you are suggesting that what management says is the right amount of outsourcing is okay.

Life hint, thats unlimited.
More importantly, DALPA can't stop DL from creating a JV, but DL does have to come to an agreement with its pilots on how much flying is allowed to shift from DL to that JV.
This prevents DL from starting a JV then sending all of its flying to the JV carrier.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 82):

Well the pay seems damn good. Good pay helps with quality of life.

Well tell me something,
Do the pay help with working in NYC giving most of that money to taxes never seeing your family and always flying crap domestic trips on the 717? You only get to work till your 65 so you better be saving that money vs sending it to your family for food because you don't have a pension anymore. Oh insurance just went up again too.

I personally think you don't have the smallest idea what you are talking about. You look at the small percent of airline employees who have been around forever but don't look at people on the bottom of the list working every holiday on midnights etc. etc.

This industry has some of the highest rates of divorce and health issues in the world but yeah....pays pretty good. Who needs a family or good health.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 82):
If employees were able to move around more freely without worrying about seniority rules then I am sure some airlines that have the best quality of life can attract better talent more easily.

Ah the old base it on merit system. You should google why airline labor doesn't do things that way.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 82):
The higher pay and the profit sharing isn't without consequences.

And again, take the profit-sharing and give back all the take aways plus COL/inflation. Not a single legacy employee is stupid enough to tell you they will keep it the way it is.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 82):
oes it have to do with European pilots willing to work for less and the flying public has accepted these foreign airline as being similar or higher quality?

It gets the liability away from the airline. Why operate as a real airline when you can operate as a virtual airline and make the same revenue? that means more profits.

but you don't like outsourcing but you do but you don't.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 82):

Or maybe this issue is more complex and isn't so black and white.

no its pretty simple really.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 82):
I think chapter 11 is generally a benefit to taxpayers because it sets the rules for dealing with creditors in times of hardship but I think airlines have abused this benefit with AA being the latest/greatest example of this abuse. And much of that abuse has hurt taxpayers but certainly airline employees who have had to take on pay cuts and boatloads of pension/benefit cuts.

But an airline should be able to create a JV and send all of its flying off to the other airline?

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 82):

But I also think there is a reason airlines like VX, B6, WN, NK, DY, AS can grow as quickly as they are now is partially because the legacy model of seniority and restrictions and mainline vs regional and staff who aren't empowered because its just about the years they have put in instead of how good they are at their job; and all of these antiquated rules are hurting the legacies from competing with these other airlines.

So you really don't know what you are talking about.

All the US airlines us seniority. Oh and WN has the, BY FAR, most restrictive scope in the industry. They can't even start a codeshare without SWAPA signing off on it. Much less ever think about flying a single plane at a RJ operator.

You are clearly flying by the seat of your pants going off what you think not what is.
 
adtall
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:53 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:52 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 83):

The DLNet article said erroneous according to you. Not directed at you specifically, but more generally my thoughts are OK, so which part? All of it? If that they'd use the word false more than likely. So which parts from the original report aren't erroneous? The separate certificate? Separate employee contracts? The spokesman denied any DL planes would be used, so that might be it, but the DL has no plans (currently) to start such an operation? That can change tomorrow, and it's not denying the idea of such an operation. No one has taken back Pieper's quote either to my knowledge, and having the guy who would likely be the guy planning such a thing give that quote is not too reassuring. It's not nearly as cut and dried of a denial as you're portraying it to be. Never thought I'd be agreeing with MSPNWA on something, but here it is.
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:22 am

Quoting adtall (Reply 85):
The DLNet article said erroneous according to you.

Are you calling me a liar? I have access to the Deltanet article.....do YOU?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
adtall
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:53 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:28 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 86):

No, I am not calling you a liar, just limiting myself to what is known here about the DLNet article, which I have read. Just properly sourcing  .
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:37 pm

Quoting adtall (Reply 87):

Quoting mayor (Reply 86):

No, I am not calling you a liar, just limiting myself to what is known here about the DLNet article, which I have read. Just properly sourcing  .

But without access to Deltanet, which you admit you don't have, you don't get the article from DL that says the media story is erroneous. BTW, the article linked by the OP, in the last half, as much as says the article is erroneous. Now, either Nat Pieper is getting called on the carpet today or someone is misconstruing what he has said or someone is just making it up.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
adtall
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:53 am

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:23 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 88):

I have read the DLNet article. On DLNet. And again, erroneous does not mean false, it means something is incorrect, but not the whole, otherwise they would have said false. They did not issue a flat out denial in the OP's story or publically (or privately to my knowledge) since then, only of very specific parts of the story. Also, it's tough to misconstrue a series of on the record quotes like that, barring either a malicious journalist or making the whole quote up.
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: Virgin Plans Low-Cost Long Haul With Delta A330

Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:33 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 74):
Hardly. Ed didn't even completely deny it. Sounded like a company caught with its paints down and trying to cover up.


Apparently the author of the article is unable to decide which way the article should swing........in the first part, it almost states that it's a done deal........in the last part, it's full of denials.

"“Reports of Virgin Atlantic plans for a low-cost offshoot are purely speculative," the airline confirmed in response to the article. "Our focus remains on ensuring we have the right aircraft flying to the destinations our customers most want to travel to,” a Virgin Atlantic spokeswoman added.

While Virgin Atlantic seemingly suggests this project may remain a consideration, Delta has denied any plans to develop any new Transatlantic venture. "Following Chairman Malone’s conversations with incoming CEO Ed Bastian, assurances were given that there are categorically no plans to execute any transfer of Delta assets to any low-cost carrier operation," it said in a statement.

According to Delta management: “Delta has no plans to start a low-cost Transatlantic operation. Delta remains competitive on the Transatlantic and in so doing continually evaluates the markets it serves. Delta operates non-stop service to London Heathrow and Manchester from the United States and will start non-stop service to Edinburgh in May 2016.”

Quoting adtall (Reply 89):

Quoting mayor (Reply 88):

I have read the DLNet article. On DLNet. And again, erroneous does not mean false, it means something is incorrect, but not the whole, otherwise they would have said false. They did not issue a flat out denial in the OP's story or publically (or privately to my knowledge) since then, only of very specific parts of the story. Also, it's tough to misconstrue a series of on the record quotes like that, barring either a malicious journalist or making the whole quote up.

Please read above ^^^^^
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos