Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
william
Topic Author
Posts: 3420
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:49 pm

Crash was not mechanical, or weather caused.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flig...30/flydubai-pilots-crash-illusion/

We must remember as Avgeeks that these marvelous and technical flying machines are flown by humans just like you and me.
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

RE: Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:37 pm

This is pretty much what was stated early on by some of the experienced guys in the original threads. Light aircraft, high power situation, and the aircraft got away from the pilots. Very sad that another perfectly flyable aircraft was flown into the grown. Hopefully something can be learned from this. Gotta trust those instruments!!
 
Cassi
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:19 pm

RE: Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:41 pm

Quote from the article:

"the plane skirted the Caspian Sea and crossed over the Balkans"

The poor guys had extraordinary skills if they could cross over the Balkans at the Caspian Sea  
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:54 pm

The pilot flying was too tired to properly operate the aircraft. The article goes into such great detail about something they do not know occurred. The simple explanation is the pilot was overwhelmed by the situation because of fatigue and should not have been flying.
 
113312
Posts: 675
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:09 am

RE: Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:31 pm

While it's simple to come to a conclusion that the pilot was too tired, this is not a statement of fact only conjecture. If you have listened to the recording of ATC communications, you might not reach a finding that the pilots were not capable of flying the aircraft. Pilots fly fatigued all of the time and do not loose control of the aircraft. It would be better to wait until the final report is out to make such a statement.

That said, if you want to speculate, it would be better to consider how the aircraft could end up in such a nose low attitude as would be evident from the descent path to the crash site. Boeing aircraft from the B707 through B737 models have an elevator trim system with a lockout feature intended to prevent a runaway trim condition. To prevent this brake from engaging, the elevator must be kept in trim all of the time.

If the nose rises and the pilot pushes the control column against the pitch force without trimming, the brake willl engage preventing activation of the trim. The only way to retrim is to relax the elevator pressure. Conversely, if the nose is low, the pilot's tendency is to pull back on the column. If this is done, without trimming, the brake will engage preventing use of the trim.

As speed changes, either increasing or decreasing, elevator trim must be adjusted to remain in trim. If only the elevator column is pulled or pushed, the lockout brake will engage. So if the nose started out too high, the pilots might have trimmed the nose pitch down. If too much pitch down trim was applied and the nose attitude ended up too low, the pilot might have applied up elevator pressure on the column. With the aircraft descending rapidly, the only way to release the trim brake would be to push forward or relax the back pressure. Psychologically, this is difficult to do but necessary to regain control. Fatigue may have played a part but was unlikely the direct cause in this cycle of overcontrolling and loss of control
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9755
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:04 pm

Quoting 113312 (Reply 4):
Pilots fly fatigued all of the time and do not loose control of the aircraft.

And?

Sooner or later fatigue will cause an accident, which this crash most likely showed.

[Edited 2016-04-26 16:05:05]
 
smw757
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:42 pm

RE: Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:01 am

The latest update to the FlyDubai article on the Aviation Herald states that the nose trim was held for an extended period of time and set to 5 degrees nose down as the crew commenced their attempted go-around. From my very limited flying experience, this sounds as though the pilot flying inadvertently held onto the trim switch on the yoke as he attempted to climb out. User 113312's explanation would also make sense, as the aircraft would have to be trimmed nose-down temporarily due to the increased power combined with lift from the flaps still retracting from landing configuration, and would then have to be re-trimmed once the flaps retracted and ceased to produce the excess lift--this would not be possible if the brake kicked in and the pilots continued to pull on the yoke. Either way, until the final report is released, this remains pure speculation.

Below is a link to the article on AvHerald, which includes references to the investigating authorities' reports:
http://avherald.com/h?article=495997e2&opt=0
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:55 am

Quoting 113312 (Reply 4):
If you have listened to the recording of ATC communications, you might not reach a finding that the pilots were not capable of flying the aircraft.

Who thinks they can decide how fatigued someone is based on their voice over the radio?

Quoting 113312 (Reply 4):
Pilots fly fatigued all of the time and do not loose control of the aircraft.

And you one up yourself with the next sentence. This is ridiculous.
 
dash8
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:23 am

RE: Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:56 am

As I was in instructed during my training, it is critical (though not natural) to rely upon instruments as soon as airborne when night flying or in other conditions when the horizon cannot be seen. This is because of the misleading sensory information provided to your brain from your ears. An example of this is when accelerating when flying straight and level you would tend to believe you are in a climb, this is because the acceleration pushes the fluid in your ear to the back which would also occur if you tilted your head back or in a climb. Therefore the opposite can occur and you could think you were accelerating while straight and level when your not and actually the nose was in a very high attitude on the brink of stall. When I was also completing my "unusual attitude" flying at night I was made to close my eyes while the instructor put the aircraft through paces, some max rate turns to really play with my senses, then told me to open my eyes with the aircraft on the verge of a wing drop stall and determine and recover the aircraft from the information provided by the instruments.
 
packsonflight
Posts: 386
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:55 pm

RE: Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:04 am

During initial approach the crew told the approach controller that in case of go around they where going to climb to 8000 feet, the published go around procedure calls for early left turn and climb to 2000 which is pretty low and you have to be careful not to overshoot the altitude when doing go around from minima using TOGA power.

I believe they accidentally selected 2000 feet on the MCP panel which is the published go around altitude, but they already decided to climb to 8000 in case of go around, like they told the controller. By doing that they programmed the autopilot/flightdirector to level of at 2000 feet.

The approach was flown manually so I guess the go around was also, and they initiated the go around at 700 ( only 1300 feet below published go around altitude) selecting TOGA and full thrust (101% N1 is full thrust) planning on climbing to 8000 feet like they told the approach controller. Aircraft is light and with full power the initial climb could be around 5000 feet per minute, but when the aircraft approaches 2000 feet the flight director starts to command nose down and possibly auto throttle cuts the power ( depending of if it is armed or not) and that is when they start to trim nose down Classic altitude capture trap.
 
a321luke
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:36 am

RE: Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:26 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 5):
And?

Sooner or later fatigue will cause an accident, which this crash most likely showed.

I agree.

That reminds me of this:

http://www.jomc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Heinrichs-Triangle.jpg
Planes, Trains, and Cars... Heaven :)
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:45 pm

Quoting smw757 (Reply 6):
User 113312's explanation would also make sense

The part where he claimed you can tell fatigue from hearing their radio broadcast?
 
User avatar
atypical
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:28 am

RE: Latest Info FlyDubai Crash In Russia

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:51 am

I have know several experienced pilots who say that spacial disorientation is the single deadliest event that the average pilot will encounter. One said the effects can be worse than severe alcohol intoxication. He said alcohol will retard reaction but spacial disorientation can result in pilots flying the aircraft wrong even though they are aware of the disorientation and are attempting to overcome it. He said that a go around would be the absolute worst time for an episode. 1. Close proximity to the ground. 2. Increased cockpit workload. 3. Unusual event. His point was envelope to make an input mistake was very large and the proximity to the ground negates much of the chance to recover from a mistake. He thought some cases where it looked like the plane was flown into the ground were more from being hesitant on the controls rather than an incorrect input.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos