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eielef
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Japanese Claim On KE007 - Soviet Accident?

Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:02 am

A not so recent article, from RT.com in the Spanish version, https://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/195138-japon-desclasificar-mentira-eeuu-derribo-avion-urss
Claims that Japan unclassified information about the downing of KE007, a flight between Anchorage and Seoul (ANC-GMP) in 1983.
With this information, it has been the Soviet shooting of this B747, was a mistake, as it was confused with an American Spy plane B707. But American inteligence told Japan to keep the mouth closed, and not tell that it was a mistake, just call it an attack on civilian people.

Any serious thoughts about this?
 
PlaneAdmirer
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Re: Japanese Claim On KE007 - Soviet Accident?

Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:21 pm

 
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KrustyTheKlown
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Re: Japanese Claim On KE007 - Soviet Accident?

Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:54 am

RT is a propaganda arm of the Kremlin, and the timing of that article surely was meant to distract the leftist Latin American public of the MH17 investigation. So not serious thoughts about it at all.

But let's play: all that said article says does is use weasel words to imply that both KAL007 and an American RC-135 (based on the B707) were carrying out spy missions. If any of those things were true the soviets could have surely produced some evidence during the UN security council meeting on the matter, but the truth is that they only used their veto power to block any resolution regarding KAL007.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Japanese Claim On KE007 - Soviet Accident?

Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:18 am

Of course it was a mistake/accident, Russians aren't monsters. At the end of the day, it was just the same Swiss cheese model that as always factors in with aviation accidents:

    KAL 007 was off course, and not expected by the Soviets.

    An RC-135 was snooping about close to (and possibly even inside) Soviet airspace.

    707/RC-135s and 747s look very similar when viewed from below and behind, especially at night.

    This was in the USSR in the 1980s. Did the Soviet pilot/ground controllers in Kamchatka even know what a Korean Airlines plane looked like, or what a 747 was? It's not like they could just look it up on wikipedia or a.net like we do today.

    A rigid command structure prevented proper communication and decision making from the Soviet side.

    The Su-15 was loaded with the wrong ammunition for it's guns, so the warning shots weren't spotted.

    Finally, there was a suspicion in the USSR that the US/west/enemy was disguising it's spy planes as civilian airliners, and got them lost on purpose over Soviet territory. I am basing this on that fact that a number of Danish fighter pilots have told me how Soviet airliners very often "got lost" when passing over Denmark, straying very conveniently over military installations. One of my contacts flew his Draken right up below the concealed camera hatch, just as they opened it in flight. If the Soviets did it, then they would naturally expect the other side to do it as well.

While the Soviet PVO was ultimately to blame for the shootdown, the entire incident could have been prevented on several different stages prior to and during the flight. The Soviets admitted the shootdown, and sacked the general who was in charge.

:)
 
WIederling
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Re: Japanese Claim On KE007 - Soviet Accident?

Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:38 pm

VSMUT wrote:
[list]KAL 007 was off course, and not expected by the Soviets.

An RC-135 was snooping about close to (and possibly even inside) Soviet airspace.

707/RC-135s and 747s look very similar when viewed from below and behind, especially at night.


Seems to be not out of the question that KAL 007 straying off course was part of the snooping activity.
South Korea was a very strongly US aligned military Dictatorship at the time.

The Soviets shooting down KAL 007 in response was the perfect culmination of continuous provocations
from the US and their allies in the region.
Leveraged in the "Free Press" to no end and without delay.

Interesting thing is that MH17 had the same fast press followup building on an instantaneous blaim
of the Russians from the US administration.

The is not the expectable reaction to an unplanned mishap. That usually builds slowly.
But here we see a full blown campaign minutes after the crash.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Japanese Claim On KE007 - Soviet Accident?

Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:06 pm

WIederling wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
[list]KAL 007 was off course, and not expected by the Soviets.

An RC-135 was snooping about close to (and possibly even inside) Soviet airspace.

707/RC-135s and 747s look very similar when viewed from below and behind, especially at night.


Seems to be not out of the question that KAL 007 straying off course was part of the snooping activity.
South Korea was a very strongly US aligned military Dictatorship at the time.

The Soviets shooting down KAL 007 in response was the perfect culmination of continuous provocations
from the US and their allies in the region.
Leveraged in the "Free Press" to no end and without delay.

Interesting thing is that MH17 had the same fast press followup building on an instantaneous blaim
of the Russians from the US administration.

The is not the expectable reaction to an unplanned mishap. That usually builds slowly.
But here we see a full blown campaign minutes after the crash.


Tinfoil, meet hat.

If MH17 wasn't shot down by a Russian-backed rebel unit, then all Russia has to do to clear her name is provide evidence. I consider Russians to be sharp people, and as such, they will have surveillance over much of Ukraine, a country they are basically at war with and its right next to them. So why not just give the evidence and be done with it?

Of course you don't really need to answer. It was shot down by a BUK launcher from Eastern Ukraine, the likelihood being that it was the rebels.

KE007 strayed off course, but it wasn't on a spying mission. Claiming it did is whataboutery of the highest order.
 
WIederling
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Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Japanese Claim On KE007 - Soviet Accident?

Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:21 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
then all Russia has to do to clear her name is provide evidence.



You do not have to prove your innocence. ( As it stands we do have moved onwards from
the dark ages, though some seem to be rather adamant in returning there. "witches burning so brightly .,
and we tell you who the witch is!."
)

The accuser has to prove his allegation.
The primary accuser in that context here, the US, was never able or willing to provide that.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Japanese Claim On KE007 - Soviet Accident?

Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:31 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Of course it was a mistake/accident, Russians aren't monsters.


KAL902.

Osipovich per his own admission knew it was a passenger 747.

VSMUT wrote:
This was in the USSR in the 1980s. Did the Soviet pilot/ground controllers in Kamchatka even know what a Korean Airlines plane looked like, or what a 747 was?


You are not being serious, are you?

VSMUT wrote:
If the Soviets did it, then they would naturally expect the other side to do it as well.


Naturally? Just because the Russians have been painting their military aircraft in Aeroflot livery does not mean everyone else stoops down to their level.

eielef wrote:
Any serious thoughts about this?


Serious thoughts about RT? LOL.
 
WIederling
Posts: 10041
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Japanese Claim On KE007 - Soviet Accident?

Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:41 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Serious thoughts about RT? LOL.


RT is just processing information available elsewhere. They don't invent the stuff.

Think about why certain interesting and factual information bits are never taken up
in the "Free press". Me semeth a lot of people are lead by a nose ring and like it.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
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Re: Japanese Claim On KE007 - Soviet Accident?

Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:57 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Of course it was a mistake/accident, Russians aren't monsters.


KAL902.


A non-responsive 707 cruising about deep within Soviet territory (and close to the Soviet submarine bases), and from the Soviet point of view, flees towards a NATO country after having been intercepted. Yet again, the same factors come into play. And yet again, it is the command structure/culture (and lack of communication) that is ultimately to blame. The pilots were (as with KAL007) ordered to shoot down the airliner by people who didn't have the complete and correct picture.

IMHO, the worst thing about this incident was the appalling airmanship of KAL902s crew. They were obviously completely lost, and could have been much further from Norway or Finland. The risk of running out of fuel while attempting to make it to a western country was very real.


L410Turbolet wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
This was in the USSR in the 1980s. Did the Soviet pilot/ground controllers in Kamchatka even know what a Korean Airlines plane looked like, or what a 747 was?


You are not being serious, are you?


What's so hard to understand? Kamchatka was one of the most secretive places in the USSR, designated as a military zone. Even Soviet civilians couldn't enter until 1989. I find it highly unlikely that the Soviet military would employ pilots and controllers with anything more than basic knowledge about civilian aircraft of the west. That just wasn't part of the job-description for anyone working there.

BTW, Osipovich also said that he initially thought it was a Soviet transport aircraft, not a 747 ;) Says quite a lot about how much those people actually knew about western aircraft, if they didn't even know what aircraft their own country was and was not manufacturing.

L410Turbolet wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
If the Soviets did it, then they would naturally expect the other side to do it as well.


Naturally? Just because the Russians have been painting their military aircraft in Aeroflot livery does not mean everyone else stoops down to their level.


"A thief believe every man steals". Yes, I do indeed mean naturally. It was hardly any secret that the US was using converted airliners to snoop around with (Lockheed Electra/P-3 Orion and 707/RC-135s). And those particular spy-planes were the only western aircraft to ever come anywhere close to Kamchatka. The military leadership was paranoid, seeing potential spies, defectors and enemies of the state everywhere. Why wouldn't the paranoia be valid for aviation too?

Try looking at things from the other sides perspective too. Even though they made a number of bad decisions, assumptions and mistakes, they had their own reasons behind what they did. And murdering 269 innocent civilians just for the shits and giggles certainly wasn't one of them ;)

:)

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