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ordell
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MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:19 pm

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201604270012.html

The manufacturer of the Mitsubishi Regional Jet (MRJ) faces a dilemma over how to send prototypes to the United States for planned test flights, thanks to Japan’s shaky diplomatic relations with Russia.

Japan's first domestically produced passenger jet needs to get to an airport near the northwestern U.S. city of Seattle, located 8,000 km from Aichi Prefecture as the crow flies, but the maximum flight range of its standard model is 2,100 kilometers.

The aircraft, designed for short-haul flights, will need to stop at several airports to refuel en route to the U.S. West Coast.

Mitsubishi Aircraft Corp. is now studying three possible routes for the plane. Politically, the trans-Pacific route, spanning more than 10,000 km, is the most viable option but it requires the maximum non-stop flight range of 4,000 km between Hawaii and the U.S. West Coast.

“The aircraft can technically achieve such a long-distance flight if we refurbish the fuel tank to accommodate more jet fuel, but we are still discussing if it is worth to do that just for one trip,” a Mitsubishi Aircraft official said.

Distance-wise, the northbound route, flying above the Kamchatka Peninsula, Bering Strait and Alaska and spanning just 8,000 km, makes the most sense.

But it is unclear whether Moscow would give permission for flights by a Japanese prototype aircraft over its territory. It also remains to be seen if the two countries could negotiate on accident response measures and other arrangements regarding the flights.
 
scutfarcus
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:36 pm

Don't small aircraft negotiate this kind of thing all the time? Or is there something particular about this being a test flight that annoys Russia?
 
nws2002
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:40 pm

Quoting scutfarcus (Reply 1):
Don't small aircraft negotiate this kind of thing all the time? Or is there something particular about this being a test flight that annoys Russia?

There's something specific about it being a test flight of a JAPANESE aircraft.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:59 pm

NKM-SHB-ADK-ANC-SEA

Easy peasy  
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
tortugamon
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:08 pm

Can someone remind me why they want to do the testing in the US? I certainly can see the airspace and facility limitations. Are they also using PNW-based flight testing personnel as well? Certainly guesses but haven't heard to true rationale.

tortugamon
 
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ordell
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:15 pm

Because they are getting help from Boeing with testing. Mitsubishi makes a lot of parts for Boeing, including the 787 wing, IIRC. For that reason, they have said they won't build bigger planes that would compete with Boeing. So the two companies are pretty tight. The testing will be done at Moses Lake. Four planes total have to be shipped there. Maybe they can put them on the backs of 747s, Space Shuttle-style.  
 
alasizon
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:18 pm

If they are determined to not spend any money and not to upset the political climate, they can go the long way NKM-CGO-KMG-CCU-BOM-DXB-AMM-NAP-SNN-KEF-UAK-YHZ-RFD-DEN-SEA which is "only" 25,000 km....
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tortugamon
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:23 pm

Quoting ordell (Reply 5):
Because they are getting help from Boeing with testing.

Figured they would lend a hand, thanks.

tortugamon
 
alasizon
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:25 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 3):
NKM-SHB-ADK-ANC-SEA

I went that route as well originally but if they are hard capped at 2100 km being the end all in terms of empty range, the SHB-ADK and ANC-SEA legs are a bit too long at 2,985 and 2,331 km respectively.
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ordell
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:56 pm

When Hawaiian bought the 717, they removed the seats in the cabin and put in extra fuel tanks, then shipped the seats separately and installed them in Hawaii. Why can't Mitsubishi do that?
 
alasizon
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:06 am

Quoting ordell (Reply 9):
When Hawaiian bought the 717, they removed the seats in the cabin and put in extra fuel tanks, then shipped the seats separately and installed them in Hawaii. Why can't Mitsubishi do that?

It sounds like they may not want to spend the money to retrofit the aircraft that way.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
chrisp390
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:33 am

Quoting ordell (Reply 9):

Yes, I have seen many turboprop aircraft remove the interior seats and install fuel drums inside to allow the aircraft to fly farther for these sort of things.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:06 am

Quoting alasizon (Reply 10):
Quoting ordell (Reply 9):
When Hawaiian bought the 717, they removed the seats in the cabin and put in extra fuel tanks, then shipped the seats separately and installed them in Hawaii. Why can't Mitsubishi do that?

It sounds like they may not want to spend the money to retrofit the aircraft that way.

Sometimes a firm needs to spend money to make money. If Mitsubishi Aircraft is really dawdling over a little problem like this, the Board needs to step in to give the firm new finance management and new program management.
 
dc10lover
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:07 am

As everyone knows the testing will be done in Moses Lake, Washington / Grant County Airport with their 13,503 foot runway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_County_International_Airport
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
aviatorcraig
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:08 am

Quoting ordell (Reply 9):
When Hawaiian bought the 717, they removed the seats in the cabin and put in extra fuel tanks, then shipped the seats separately and installed them in Hawaii. Why can't Mitsubishi do that?

The cabin is probably full of test equipment.
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:16 am

Quoting ordell (Reply 5):
So the two companies are pretty tight.

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they partner up in more ways than they have been so far. Maybe Boeing will launch the B737 replacement and MOM simultaneously and rely heavily on Mitsubishi on the smaller plane.
Only the paranoid survive
 
threeifbyair
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:22 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 3):
NKM-SHB-ADK-ANC-SEA
Quoting alasizon (Reply 8):
I went that route as well originally but if they are hard capped at 2100 km being the end all in terms of empty range, the SHB-ADK and ANC-SEA legs are a bit too long at 2,985 and 2,331 km respectively.

What about Shemya / SYA? It is 2374km from SHB, above the 2100km range but potentially doable. For the right price I think the USAF could supply some fuel.

Then just stop in KTN on the way down from ANC.

NKM-SHB-SYA-ADK-ANC-KTN-SEA/BFI/PAE/MWH
 
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ordell
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:38 am

I'm still wondering what's the beef between Russia and Japan. China and Japan, yeah they haven't gotten along for 1000 years, literally. But what's up with Russia?
 
dc10lover
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:44 am

Testing delays arrival of Mitsubishi Regional Jet in Moses Lake

Posted: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 2:22 pm

"Port of Moses Lake officials announced the estimated timetable, for when the jets will arrive at the Grant County International Airport, was pushed back from next spring to next fall".

http://www.ifiberone.com/news/testin...c-ae7a-11e5-a61b-1f505bb5955f.html
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
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ordell
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:52 am

BTW the second plane is set to begin testing. This has a red livery instead of black/red/yellow.



Mitsubishi Aircraft says the second prototype for its MRJ regional jet programme is undergoing engine tests, as it readies for its first flight.

In a newsletter, the Japanese manufacturer says FTA-2 will move forward with taxi tests in May, followed by flight tests.

This follows the completion of the first phase of flight tests for the FTA-1. On 13 April, FTA-1 started recieving “planned modifications” that will be completed in mid-May. It will also be fitted with instruments necessary for upcoming tests.

Mitsubishi says it has been conducting flight tests on FTA-1 on consecutive days since mid-March, whenever weather conditions permit. These tests include flying with only one engine, mid-air shut down and restart of engine and auxiliary power systems, as well as a functional check on the emergency power generation system.
 
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:09 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 15):
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they partner up in more ways than they have been so far. Maybe Boeing will launch the B737 replacement and MOM simultaneously and rely heavily on Mitsubishi on the smaller plane.

Yeah nothing is more important than getting FAA approval. It is crazy that they don't want to spend "some" money to get the MRJ to USA for such testing lor....
 
golfradio
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:19 am

Quoting ordell (Thread starter):
but the maximum flight range of its standard model is 2,100 kilometers.

I hope they did not over state the range like their car division did with the fuel mileage. The pilots wouldn't want to end up in the drink   
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LandSweetLand
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:09 am

Can't they just put them on a boat?
 
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:35 am

Quoting LandSweetLand (Reply 22):
Can't they just put them on a boat?

It is almost summertime and it is an airplane. Best to fly.

You can put an aircraft on top. There is a bit of salt water exposure though. The car carriers are too small.

The easiest way is to hop up to Siberia, but more than one stop is required. One Idea would be:
ngo-vvo-pkc-dyr-anc-ypr-sea

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=ngo-vvo-pkc-dyr-anc-ypr-sea&MS=wls&MR=540&MX=720x360&PM=*


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ordell
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:46 am

lightsabre, did you read the article? Japan and Russia have bad relations for some reason and it's believed Russia will not give fly-over clearance.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:54 am

Quoting ordell (Reply 24):
lightsabre, did you read the article? Japan and Russia have bad relations for some reason and it's believed Russia will not give fly-over clearance.

Yes, I read the article. I realize for silly reasons the Russians might not allow it. But it is still the better solution.

The other option is to hop over to Europe (so many options, I won't propose one route) and then fly over the Atlantic:
dub-rkv-sfj-yqx


These old fueds get silly.

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ekkaihla
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:43 am

Quoting ordell (Reply 24):
apan and Russia have bad relations for some reason

Bad relations is probably a slightly too strong way to put it, but the reason is most likely the dispute over the four southernmost Kuril Islands, which has been going on ever since the Soviet Union took them over in the end of WW2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril_Islands_dispute
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32andBelow
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:29 am

Shemya would be a no go. ADK is possible but super remote. CDB would be the best fuel stop in the area if you could make it.

[Edited 2016-04-27 22:30:17]
 
CRJ900
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:12 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
The other option is to hop over to Europe (so many options, I won't propose one route) and then fly over the Atlantic:
dub-rkv-sfj-yqx

Much better option, I would say. They get to log plenty of cycles and show off the plane at numerous airports.
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:06 am

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 12):
If Mitsubishi Aircraft is really dawdling over a little problem like this, the Board needs to step in to give the firm new finance management and new program management.

  

It's often said that Japanese business culture sometimes takes the path of illogical actions, for the purpose of "saving face" when confronted with a perceived slight. I wonder if that (vis-a-vis Russia) has anything to do with their refusal to do what seems to be the obvious solution.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:27 am

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=NGO-CTS-ADK-ANC-MWH&MS=wls&MR=540&MX=720x360&PM=*

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?DU=mi&MS=wls&P=NGO-CTS-ADK-ANC-MWH


Why would they need Russia at all for this route?
 
AA94
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:40 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 30):

The MRJ's max range is 2100km, and both the CTS-ADK and ANC-MWH legs of that path are well over.
 
jamesontheroad
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:43 am

Why not go the long way round, and turn it into a publicity tour via S-E Asia, India, the Gulf, Europe and Iceland?

Simples 
 
Gemuser
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:50 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 30):
Why would they need Russia at all for this route?

Your own map tells you. See those islands just NE of CTS? They are Russian! I would expect a detour to advoid Russia would make the sector beyond the max range.

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TheSonntag
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:50 am

I know Hawaii-LAX is too Long, but could the plane actually make it to Hawaii via MDW?
 
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:05 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 15):
Maybe Boeing will launch the B737 replacement and MOM simultaneously and rely heavily on Mitsubishi on the smaller plane.

Boeing to provide MRJ support for customers? That could certainly be an interesting partnership and enable MRJ to sell more, especially to Boeing airlines

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 34):
I know Hawaii-LAX is too Long, but could the plane actually make it to Hawaii via MDW?

Via Midway Chicago?
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:32 am

Quoting golfradio (Reply 21):
I hope they did not over state the range like their car division did with the fuel mileage. The pilots wouldn't want to end up in the drink

Haha, nice one.


Excuse my ignorance but what kind of authorization or certification does a prototype need to have to overfly other countries ?
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TheSonntag
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:05 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 35):

Oops, I meant Midway Island.
 
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:52 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 37):
Oops, I meant Midway Island.

How do you wanna fly to MDY ? From NGO it's 4300km
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Gemuser
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:27 am

Quoting euroflyer (Reply 36):
Excuse my ignorance but what kind of authorization or certification does a prototype need to have to overfly other countries ?

A one off authorization giving permission for one or more flights for specific purposes. The route in reply 30 would require authorization from Japan [of course], Russia, USA & Canada. Each country can impose whatever conditions they deem appropriate.

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SonomaFlyer
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:12 pm

They could island hop on a southern route which would take them through MNL, GUM and through Micronesia on to HNL then to SFO which at 2,084nm would be a real stretch but the tailwinds would help.

In the end, something will be worked out with Russia and they'll do the great circle route hopping through the Aleutians, ANC and down the west coast.
 
Vctony
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:23 pm

Aren't there several MRJ orders by US Carriers (Trans States and Skywest). Would there be a problem in delivering them? Or do current US / Russian agreements allow these delivery flights to fly over Russia? The US and Russia aren't anywhere close to best of friends right now either.
 
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:43 pm



The southern route up to Hilo is doable...

NGO (34°51'30"N 136°48'19"E) OKA (26°11'45"N 127°38'45"E) 225° (SW) 1301 km
OKA (26°11'45"N 127°38'45"E) SPN (15°07'13"N 145°43'48"E) 120° (SE) 2244 km
SPN (15°07'13"N 145°43'48"E) KWA (08°43'12"N 167°43'54"E) 104° (E) 2497 km
KWA (08°43'12"N 167°43'54"E) AWK (19°16'57"N 166°38'12"E) 354° (N) 1175 km
AWK (19°16'57"N 166°38'12"E) MDY (28°12'05"N 177°22'53"W) 56° (NE) 1903 km
MDY (28°12'05"N 177°22'53"W) HNL (21°19'04"N 157°55'13"W) 107° (E) 2108 km
HNL (21°19'04"N 157°55'13"W) ITO (19°43'13"N 155°02'54"W) 120° (SE) 348 km
ITO (19°43'13"N 155°02'54"W) SFO (37°37'08"N 122°22'31"W) 51° (NE) 3730 km

But not ITO-SFO... and there's no way around that without extra tanks... That pretty much means the southern route is out of the question.

Unless Japan can make nice with Russia enough to route via the Siberia/Alaska routing I think that MRJ is going to be flying a long way round route.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:00 pm

The extra tanks worked for the 717, there is even a pic on A.net. Maybe this works here, too (or is this a bad idea for a prototype?).
 
32andBelow
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:16 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 43):

The extra tanks worked for the 717, there is even a pic on A.net. Maybe this works here, too (or is this a bad idea for a prototype?).

Thats how they get single engine pistons out there!
 
flightless
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:31 pm

How about this for a dumb idea...
Boeing could buy the prototype, stick a stars-and-stripes decal & reg on it, fly it over to Seattle, and sell it back. Or even keep ownership until testing was over and the plane is delivered back to Nagoya.
 
Trucker
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:05 pm

If this plane has a 2100km range in still air and with 90 passengers could it fly 2400km east bound and empty? If so you could fly the 2nd leg KUH-ATU which is right at 2400km. The rest of the trip would be all short hops. ATU only has a 6000 ft runway but this is an RJ so that ought to be enough.

[Edited 2016-04-28 13:13:02]
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:33 pm

Why dont they just stuff two extra fuel bladders into the cargo hold and be done with the dramanity?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:59 am

It really seems like Mitsubishi is in denial. This shouldn't be that hard.

Quoting ordell (Reply 17):
I'm still wondering what's the beef between Russia and Japan.

World War 1, the Japanese soundly embarrassed the Russian Navy and changed the war due the sudden imbalance of naval power.

World war 2 the two fought a nasty border skirmish that included chemical warfare, biological warfare, a cat fight over Korea paused by the nuclear bombs per some analysts, and Russia seizing Japanese territory at the end with long running diplomatic spats since then.

Quoting Vctony (Reply 41):
The US and Russia aren't anywhere close to best of friends right now either.

If Russia denies access to US flagged aircraft, we're back to the cold war and Russia likes the ATC fees.

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yeelep
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RE: MRJ's Latest Problem: Getting The MRJ To The US

Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:02 am

Am I missing something with all the Boeing is providing or assisting in the testing comments. I thought AeroTEC was the Seattle based company providing those services.

http://www.aerotec.com/index.php?section=about_aerotec

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos