Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
blacksoviet
Topic Author
Posts: 1640
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:01 pm

Should Boeing have preserved the 757 production line for future use? Did this cause them to lose tons of money to Airbus and the A321/A332?
 
Max752
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:56 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:06 pm

Yes.

757MAX would be much appreciated.

-Thanks
Super 80, pff, more like Stupid 80 | TravelUpdate.com & TheCollegePoints.com |
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2937
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:06 pm

IMHO it was a mistake to royally screw up the development of the 787, stealing resources from the company that could have developed a clean sheet Y3 and/or Y1 that could have included a 757 replacement.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 23726
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:28 pm

Nope.

The tooling would only be the tip of the iceberg in terms of restarting 757 production.

You'd have to get GE/Pratt/RR to come up with a modern engine otherwise LEAP/GTF will kick its butt.

And you'd have to get all the supply chain ramped up again otherwise those tools don't have anything going into them.

And you'd have to find customers that are willing to pay for the capabilities it would provide beyond the A320/737 families because it simply is not as efficient as A320/737 for the missions they can do.

And build all new factories since the ones that built the 757 in Renton are all gone or re-purposed now.

Bottom line is that the line's been gone for over a decade now, and for good reason. The a/c was overbuilt for the mission and needed a unique engine thrust rating, and no one was ordering them any more. The factories are either now shopping malls or 737 final assembly lines, and both of those things brought Boeing more cash than making more 757s would.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
blacksoviet
Topic Author
Posts: 1640
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:35 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):

why was the 757 overbuilt?
I've heard the same thing said about the 727. Now both the 757 and 727 have been replaced by the 737.
 
User avatar
hilram
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:12 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:37 pm

John Leahy was recently heard taunting Boeing about this, he said they should "just restart 757 production and hang new engines on it, at least they would have something to compete in the segment". Amazingly, I agree.
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | CRJ9 | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:38 pm

Quoting blacksoviet (Thread starter):
Should Boeing have preserved the 757 production line for future use?

No.

They should have got one of those mind wiper things from Men In Black to stop a.netters from constantly trying to revive a development dead end!!

The 757 was a product of its time. That time has passed and it is fundamentallly ill-suited as the basis for attaching modern technology.
 
User avatar
lapper
Posts: 1562
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 6:42 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:43 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):

OP was asking about whether it was a mistake to preserve the production line, not to restart it from scratch.
 
reltney
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:52 pm

The stock off the factory floor 757" was leaps and bounds better than the 737 and 320 series. The manufactures had to MAX/NEO with super winglets and a bit of wiffle dust just to come close to 757 performance . Imagine if Boeing just tweaked the plane with a more modern engine and perhaps a newer wing. Untouchable.....

As a pilot, I have flown both and there is nothing better than the 757 . Transcontinental 757 can cross both ways with full pax fuel cargo. The 321 we would be seat restricted westbound almost all the time and cargo suffered. 320 was better but of course smaller.

Boeing really missed this nitch market.

Bringing the plane back would be expensive since the line was moved then shut down , however it would be cheaper than a whole new design.

Flame away flamers

Cheers
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19582
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:53 pm

The 757 needs too much redone to be competitive with the A321NEO. The wing sub-systems should be completely redone so why not build a CFRP wing with folding wingtips.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
The tooling would only be the tip of the iceberg in terms of restarting 757 production.

You'd have to get GE/Pratt/RR to come up with a modern engine otherwise LEAP/GTF will kick its butt.

Exactly. Not only that, but a 757 requires a significant redesign to cut the maintenance burden.

Tools are cheap. In particular as storing them for a decade costs almost as much as new tools. Since Boeing doesn't make aircraft the same way, I would guess 40%+ of the tools need to be replaced anyway.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):

And you'd have to get all the supply chain ramped up again otherwise those tools don't have anything going into them.

Too be competitive, so much of the 757 would be re-engineered that it would be better to start from scratch.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
anfromme
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:58 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:54 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
Bottom line is that the line's been gone for over a decade now, and for good reason.

Pretty concise summary, this sentence and your post in general.

Quoting Lapper (Reply 7):
OP was asking about whether it was a mistake to preserve the production line, not to restart it from scratch.

You're missing a "not", I believe.
Anyway, that's what Revelation is responding to.
It was not a mistake to destroy the tooling/dismantle the FAL.
The 757 wasn't selling any more, hadn't been selling for a while, and the real estate was needed for other things that gnerated more money for Boeing.
"Simply" mothballing a production line indefinitely isn't an easy and/or cheap exercise.
42
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 23726
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:07 pm

Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 4):
I've heard the same thing said about the 727.

I'd say the 727 was just outdated rather than overbuilt. A320 and 737-8 fill its role quite well. Nothing quite fills the 757 role, but the market has largely adjusted to that.

Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 4):
why was the 757 overbuilt?

It needs to be built strong enough to do its most demanding mission. That means a lot of weight to carry a lot more fuel than most missions need, and a lot stronger landing gear, and perhaps more thrust and/or high lift devices to meet short field requirements, etc.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 10):
"Simply" mothballing a production line indefinitely isn't an easy and/or cheap exercise.

... and there's a lot more involved in getting a competitive product than "un-mothballing" a mothballed production line. As LS points out it's not competitive in terms of maintenance scheme or production scheme. It's more than 10 years out of date in terms of its engine technology. All the suppliers that used to build the parts that fed into the FAL are now doing other things with their factories and employees. Customers have already ordered most of its replacements. There's next to no room in the market for a 757 replacement, especially considering that the A320 family still has some growth left in it.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:07 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 10):
Pretty concise summary, this sentence and your post in general.

Still a shame though. It's a wonderful airplane and I'm forever thankful I got to fly it (as a pilot) in her twilight years. I'll never forget one of my first flights on it. Coming out of Florida there were tons of "build ups"". In an RJ we would be deviating around them but in the 57 we just climbed over them all. It was awesome. We got cleared into the high 20s and were climbing at 4,000 fpm + no problem. She's more slippery than greased cat sh*t on arrival though.

Give me a 757 with a new wing, avionics, a little more legroom upfront, and engine and I will die a happy man.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 23726
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:12 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 12):
Give me a 757 with a new wing, avionics, a little more legroom upfront, and engine and I will die a happy man.

We can all dream, and that's a nice dream to have.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ckfred
Posts: 5182
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:26 pm

I talked about this with a friend of mine who is a 738 captain and flew 757/767 for 15 years in both seats. The problem of the 757 was, to a certain extent was that Boeing introduced the 737-900, and Airbus introduced the A321.

The 737-900 was cheaper than the 757, and it can do probably 75% of what the 757 does. The issues are cargo payload and the ability to operated out of high-altitude airports, such as the western ski resorts in the U.S.

For an airline that was flying the A319 and A320, the A321 made sense from a fleet commonality standpoint, even though A321 had its issues, such as weight restrictions on westbound trans-con flights.

Would airlines like to buy 757s today? Of course, because no other narrowbody has the ability to fly from the Northeast, or even the Midwest, to western Europe.

But, when interest in the 757 waned, Boeing didn't have much of a choice. A company can hold onto its tooling, but you have suppliers, especially the engine manufacturers. P&W and RR weren't about to look into improving their engine offerings in anticipation that 10 years down the road, the market for the 757 would revive.
 
User avatar
Adipasquale
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:39 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:29 pm

No, Boeing should not have kept the tooling.

The 757 has gained something of a mythical status on a.net, but keep in mind Boeing closed the line because nobody was ordering the plane. As others have touched on, to be competitive with new technology, the 757 would have had to be completely redesigned. Furthermore, probably 97% of the routes 757s fly, A321s and 739ERs can fly as well, and there will be plenty of 757s to fly those few routes that 321s and 739s can't until something new (hello 321NeoLR!) can. The exact reason people love the 757 (it has more power, etc) is the reason the 321 and 739 are more economical. As much as I (and the rest of a.net) love the 757, all good things must come to an end at some point.
DH8A DH8B CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 E45 E70 E75 E90 D93 M88 318 319 320 321 333 343 712 732 733 734 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77L 77W
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9302
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:34 pm

Quoting blacksoviet (Thread starter):
Should Boeing have preserved the 757 production line for future use? Did this cause them to lose tons of money to Airbus and the A321/A332?

Nope.

One of the best decisions Boeing made in the 2000s.

In the 25 years the 757 was available for offer, Boeing sold a little over 1,000 units. In the roughly 10 years since Boeing stopped accepting 757 orders, they've sold 8,000 737 models! The opportunity cost of diverting resources away from the 737 and towards the 757 would have been a disastrous business decision.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3893
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:38 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
Bottom line is that the line's been gone for over a decade now, and for good reason. The a/c was overbuilt for the mission and needed a unique engine thrust rating, and no one was ordering them any more. The factories are either now shopping malls or 737 final assembly lines, and both of those things brought Boeing more cash than making more 757s would.

I think this sums it up quite nicely. So the answer to the question in the opening post would for me also be "No".

As fine the B757 was, it's days of sales successes are over since over 10 years. New airplanes have come along from Boeing and Airbus and the airlines are doing a great job with them. And look at the sales successes of the A32X-neo and the B737-MAX. To me that says it all.
 
aviatorcraig
Posts: 562
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:14 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:43 pm

Quoting reltney (Reply 8):
The stock off the factory floor 757" was leaps and bounds better than the 737 and 320 series. The manufactures had to MAX/NEO with super winglets and a bit of wiffle dust just to come close to 757 performance . Imagine if Boeing just tweaked the plane with a more modern engine and perhaps a newer wing. Untouchable.....

"Leaps and bounds better" for who? - for pilots? Sure, but pilots don't buy aircraft for airlines - beancounters do, and the beancounters decided there were more profitable ways of investing their beans.

Without wanting to turn this into the usual A.net A vs B crap ad nauseum, it is very interesting to read a twenty-three year old article from Flight International's (now Flight Global) archive. It is an appraisal of the A321 published on the week it first flew in March 1993:

http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1993/1993%20-%200502.pdf
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1993/1993%20-%200503.pdf
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1993/1993%20-%200504.pdf
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1993/1993%20-%200505.pdf
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1993/1993%20-%200506.pdf
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1993/1993%20-%200507.pdf

Two key points are:

* The A321 (in it's 1993 iteration) could cover 98.6% of current (again 1993) Boeing 757 scheduled operations.

* The A321 was 10,000kgs, thats approaching 20 percent, lighter than the 757

Since then the A321 has been developed to become more capable and we have seen the introduction of the 737-900 which can also fly old style 757 missions way more efficiently. The 757 is still king at longer thin routes like TATL to secondary airports but that is just not enough of a market to support a whole aircraft type production.

I love the over-powered over engineered stick insect that is the Boeing 757 as much as the next guy, but it's day has passed, except for a few missions in the extremities of its performance envelope that it is still the best at.
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
ec99
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:18 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:57 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 6):
No.

They should have got one of those mind wiper things from Men In Black to stop a.netters from constantly trying to revive a development dead end!!

           

I think Amiga500 and I usually have different views on Boeing products but this is spot on. It is amazing how many threads there have been on the 757. I love flying it, it is great plane with amazing capabilities.

But airlines don't go for great planes with amazing capabilities, they go for CASM, RASM etc... If they cared about performance and amazing planes we would still see Concordes flying and 747s and A380s flying off the assembly line.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2597
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:04 pm

I think the answer is no. The 757 stopped being ordered for a reason. It has a niche role that it fills well, but a niche role won't make production viable. On anything below 6-7 hours the A321neo and MAX9 are far, far better than the 757 and I think they'd be better than a 757MAX.

Quoting reltney (Reply 8):
The manufactures had to MAX/NEO with super winglets and a bit of wiffle dust just to come close to 757 performance

They however had to do nothing to equal the efficiency on routes where they could compete.

Quoting reltney (Reply 8):
Imagine if Boeing just tweaked the plane with a more modern engine and perhaps a newer wing. Untouchable.....

Untouchable performance, but extremely touchable economics, and I think we know what sells to airlines. And since the A321neoLR can do almost anything the 757 can but cheaper.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:51 pm

Quoting Lapper (Reply 7):
OP was asking about whether it was a mistake to preserve the production line, not to restart it from scratch.

This subject comes up very regularly and the answer is always the same. Boeing stopped producing the 757 over ten years ago because no-one would buy any of them. Why would think they should preserve a production line for a product that was no longer selling?

I don't like it any more than anyone else. I'm a huge 757 fan, just like l'm a big 707 and L-1011 fan, not to mention a lot of train locomotives that are simply past their time.

While this topic is asked over and over and over an A.net, amazingly we no longer have our weekly thread about when DL is going to buy AS.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3544
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:02 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
In the 25 years the 757 was available for offer, Boeing sold a little over 1,000 units. In the roughly 10 years since Boeing stopped accepting 757 orders, they've sold 8,000 737 models! The opportunity cost of diverting resources away from the 737 and towards the 757 would have been a disastrous business decision.

Therein though, that may be an excessively broad swath of 737s to allude to a business case against the 757.

Obviously no one can say for certain which of any of the ordered 737s during the time period following the last 757 order in November of 2003 would or would not have otherwise been a 757 order...But assuming a hypothetical that only the largest offered 737s during that time period may have been 757s instead, here's how the numbers would appear:

737-900: 5 orders
737-900ER: 499 orders
737 MAX 9: 418 orders

Total: 922 orders

Using these numbers, the hypothetical comparison would become: In the 25 years the 757 was available for offer, Boeing sold 1,049 units (~42 per year). In the 13 years since Boeing stopped accepting 757 orders, they've sold 922 of the largest 737 models available at the time (~71 per year).

The additional ~30 largest 737 frames ordered per year following the last 757 order is certainly not insignificant, but would a next-generation 757 have not done any better? Considering that before the last 757 order, there were only 52 737-900s ordered in 6 years (~8.6 orders per year)...and during that same time period, 165 757s were ordered (~27 per year). Only after the last 757 order did the take rate for the largest 737 start to improve significantly, and yet the stimulus to make even that happen was an -ER program to help make it more like the 757.

But it's all just academic now.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
TurnaroudUK
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 7:11 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:44 pm

A 757-300 with new engines and wings with the range 500 km + of the 757-200 and the ability for the aircraft to be containerised and you're onto a winner.
 
SXDFC
Posts: 2025
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:59 pm

Why does this question continuously get asked all the time? Is there not ENOUGH threads on the subject at hand? The 757 tooling has gone to airplane heaven, it WONT be coming back.. Boeing isn't sorry, and eventually the A321NEO(LR) and what ever new name a.net gives the 737 replacement this week will replace it.

As much as this site wants to rehash the subject, none of us have enough clout nor cash to convince Boeing to do otherwise..
 
rta
Posts: 1414
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:01 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:59 pm

The tooling is just one piece to the puzzle, so that's hardly the sole mistake. They've done a great job with the 737 with the numbers they've sold. But the mistake was riding the 737 wave for too long, IMO, as now we're seeing the limitations of the 737s with no clear path forward.

Of course, they were spending most of their time on the 787 production, which they really made a mess of. Perhaps if that went better, we'd be closer to a 757-esque replacement.
 
Beatyair
Posts: 856
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:09 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:00 pm

No

Boeing did a good thing replacing the 767 with the 787. But the rest of the fleet is the same old thing with new engines.
They should stop work on the 777X and come up the a new design for the 737/757. One new design that starts at the 160 to 240 passage range. Basically from the 738 to the 788. Let the smaller manufactures fill the 80 - 150 passenger segment. The 737 worked well for a few carriers, but the 738 to the 321 has been the big sellers.
 
DDR
Posts: 1721
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:07 pm

I lost count many years ago on the number of 757s that I've flown. Flew them in Y and F. Great plane from a passenger perspective (if the airline didn't cram too many seats in the thing). Loved boarding through the L2 door. Now, having said that... a company can't keep producing a product that no one is buying. In the end, Boeing simply had no customers for the 757.

In my opinion, the 737-900 will never be able to completely replace everything the 757 could do, but I believe the A321 will in a short time be the perfect replacement aircraft.

The A321 has so much potential I honestly believe it may end up being one of the best sellers of all time.

Just my opinion, and feel free to flame away, but I think the 737-900 was an act of desperation by Boeing. And personally, I think it's just an ugly airplane. ( I know, bean counters don't care about looks). Oh, I'm still recovering from surgery so flame lightly
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12961
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:26 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 22):
The additional ~30 largest 737 frames ordered per year following the last 757 order is certainly not insignificant, but would a next-generation 757 have not done any better?

Would it have done similarly ? The 739 and 739ER would have still sold, for all those mission where nothing more was needed capacity wise. The 757 or 757NG would still have only had a niche of the market.

Also I'm not sure why it is often overlooked in these threads that the 757 was mainly bought by US airlines. In a way it wasn't a global product. 737s and A320s sell by the thousands all over the world.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 23726
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:29 pm

Quoting TurnaroudUK (Reply 23):
A 757-300 with new engines and wings with the range 500 km + of the 757-200 and the ability for the aircraft to be containerised and you're onto a winner.

New engines = $$$$
New wings = $$$$
Containers = ????

Winner, nope. Way too much of the market has gone to the A321 and 739 to justify the spend. Way too easy for Airbus to improve the A321 enough to undermine your proposed a/c.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9302
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:37 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 22):
Therein though, that may be an excessively broad swath of 737s to allude to a business case against the 757.

Obviously no one can say for certain which of any of the ordered 737s during the time period following the last 757 order in November of 2003 would or would not have otherwise been a 757 order...But assuming a hypothetical that only the largest offered 737s during that time period may have been 757s instead, here's how the numbers would appear:

737-900: 5 orders
737-900ER: 499 orders
737 MAX 9: 418 orders

Total: 922 orders

Using these numbers, the hypothetical comparison would become: In the 25 years the 757 was available for offer, Boeing sold 1,049 units (~42 per year). In the 13 years since Boeing stopped accepting 757 orders, they've sold 922 of the largest 737 models available at the time (~71 per year).

The additional ~30 largest 737 frames ordered per year following the last 757 order is certainly not insignificant, but would a next-generation 757 have not done any better? Considering that before the last 757 order, there were only 52 737-900s ordered in 6 years (~8.6 orders per year)...and during that same time period, 165 757s were ordered (~27 per year). Only after the last 757 order did the take rate for the largest 737 start to improve significantly, and yet the stimulus to make even that happen was an -ER program to help make it more like the 757.

But it's all just academic now.

That's a faulty argument.

The question is not which 737 sales could have been 757 sales. The question is which 737 sales could Boeing not make if they had a 757 production line taking up space in Renton. Boeing could not produce 42 737s per month if the 757 line was still open.

And the 737-900ER isn't more like the 757. The 737-900ER is more like the 737-800. The market wants the 737-800. Half of the 8,000 orders that Boeing has booked on the 737 line since the 757 was discontinued are for the -800 model alone.

You don't let your dogs (757-200) get in the way of your stars (737-800).
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 23726
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:50 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 28):
Also I'm not sure why it is often overlooked in these threads that the 757 was mainly bought by US airlines.

Mainly, but BA was a launch customer, owned up to 54 of them and operated them for 27 years.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4066/5131285980_dc2642a798_b.jpg

If A32x hadn't slipped in via an acquisition, who knows...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
awthompson
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:41 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 6):

Quoting blacksoviet (Thread starter):
Should Boeing have preserved the 757 production line for future use?

No.

They should have got one of those mind wiper things from Men In Black to stop a.netters from constantly trying to revive a development dead end!!

The 757 was a product of its time. That time has passed and it is fundamentallly ill-suited as the basis for attaching modern technology.

This is simply not true in my opinion, it may have seemed like a good idea at the time to end production and destroy all tooling, but now I believe this was not a good decision for Boeing.
The 747 is a much older design and yet has been the basis for much modernization.
 
UA444
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:43 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
s. In the roughly 10 years since Boeing stopped accepting 757 orders, they've sold 8,000 737 models! The opportunity cost of diverting resources away from the 737 and towards the 757 would have been a disastrous business decision.

Boeing hasn't sold 8000 737s since the 757 was discontinued.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:44 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
Quoting Lapper (Reply 7):
OP was asking about whether it was a mistake to preserve the production line, not to restart it from scratch.

This subject comes up very regularly and the answer is always the same.

Yes, these 757 threads are very repetitive. Would save a lot of typing and reading if posters would search for some of the many previous threads (probably in the dozens). Can almost guarantee that everything has been said before.
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2727
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:22 am

Its simply cheaper to "757" the 737NEO with new wingbox, wings, and landing gear to go with the new engines than it would be to "757NEO" the 757, which would require investment in the whole frame in addition to the new wings, engines, and landing gear. Thats if the 757 tooling was in perfect shape in a warehouse.
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3276
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:26 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 34):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
Quoting Lapper (Reply 7):
OP was asking about whether it was a mistake to preserve the production line, not to restart it from scratch.

This subject comes up very regularly and the answer is always the same.

Yes, these 757 threads are very repetitive. Would save a lot of typing and reading if posters would search for some of the many previous threads (probably in the dozens). Can almost guarantee that everything has been said before.

I bet there is echo in A net, since these 757 revival threads pop up every month or so... One of my favorite Aircraft, but sadly there were no customers and even today there would be no customers since the 739 and A321 can do 95% of th emissions for a lot le$$.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
phlwok
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 11:41 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:54 am

Most of the posts in this thread indicate a lack of basic business decision making knowledge. There's no doubt that the 757 was a great plane, and even though it sold hardly at all prior to the end of its production, some investment probably could have been made to improve it some. However, that is not the only analysis needed. Other considerations include:

- The opportunity cost of investing in the 757 platform versus using the resources elsewhere (737, 787, etc) or simply not spending the money at all
- The cost of floor space for manufacturing, maintenance of the supply chain, employees, etc., when you have other programs that perhaps could be ramped up with better sales potential that could use those resources instead
- The long term upgradeabilty of the platform (e.g., if you put a few billion into it now, do you have to do so again in a few years to keep up or ahead of the competition, or discontinue it soon anyway)
- The ability and willingness of your partners and suppliers to support it and upgrades (would engine manufacturers sign up for a "757 NEO" if it already had lots of competition, including from existing Boeing products?)

And so on. The 757 is a 35+ year old design. A great one, but one that wasn't selling, was outdated at the time they ended production, and was not fuel efficient just as we headed into higher oil prices (yes, winglet mods helped, but not enough). Boeing did the analysis and decided that the better way to spend resources at the time was on newer and some bigger 737s, the 787, etc. I think it was the right decision looking at 737 sales. Not every decision in hindsight was likely correct - the 748 for instance isn't looking too good, but I don't disagree with this one.
 
Wingtips56
Posts: 1256
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:26 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:16 am

Anybody else tired of this subject? The horse is dead; stop beating it.

While I love the 757 too, I'm not in a position to buy hundreds of them to justify building more. Nobody else is either. Orders dried up. The line shut down. It's over. Yes, the 757 is a niche player now, but more because airlines that have them have spent time trying to figure out what to do with them, when there are more efficient/cost-efficient alternatives. Even airlines that still fly them have retired numbers of them, while other airlines have retired them completely.

If the Airbus A330 did not benefit from the common design of the A300 and A340, would we be moaning about losing the tooling for those two, which nobody is ordering either?

What Boeing doesn't need is another distraction in bringing out the new generation that should have been already in production. Yes, the 737 soldiers on, because it was a good design to start with, and has shown it can be tweaked and prodded into new variants to react to a need on shorter notice than a new design, and that is almost a trap that Boeing has been stuck in. Had it not been for the Airbus Neos, Boeing could have been moving on, rather than going back to the 737 for another tweak. That said, I think they've done remarkably well with the 737.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

Home airport : CEC
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1868
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:16 am

It was a huge mistake to destroy the tooling. Otherwise we would be spared this topic continually being recreated.
 
Max Q
Posts: 8175
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:28 am

Biggest mistake Boeing's ever made and they're paying the price now with the dilemma of how to fight the A321N



Shutting down the 757 line because of a temporary slump was very shortsighted, if they'd kept it ticking over sales would have picked back up, especially with the proposed, revamped version and it would still be in production today saving Boeing billions in development costs for a new version to compete with AB.


They may have saved a bit back then but its going to cost them dearly now.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9302
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:53 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 33):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
s. In the roughly 10 years since Boeing stopped accepting 757 orders, they've sold 8,000 737 models! The opportunity cost of diverting resources away from the 737 and towards the 757 would have been a disastrous business decision.

Boeing hasn't sold 8000 737s since the 757 was discontinued.

Okay, in a literal sense, you don't achieve "sale" until delivery under Generally Accepted Accounting Practices (GAAP).

Boeing has booked orders for 8,000 units of the 737 family since October 2003. That is, unless I've completely forgotten how to properly run a Boeing orders report, but I don't think that is the case.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Oshkosh1
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:48 am

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:51 am

IF Boeing thought they could make a dime...they'd build it again. Pretty simple. Has little to do with flying, everything to do with economics. Wasn't a mistake at the time and hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.

I'm with others who are baffled with the A.Net infatuation with the '57. I've flown them several times. Nothing particularly special, unique one way or the other.
C-150/2, 172, 177, 182, 209, Beech King Air, Convair 580, Twin Otter, RJ, CRJ, ERJ B717,27,37,47,57,67,77. DC8,9,10. MD8
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13148
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:03 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 6):
They should have got one of those mind wiper things from Men In Black to stop a.netters from constantly trying to revive a development dead end!!

^THIS!



Quoting Max Q (Reply 40):
Shutting down the 757 line because of a temporary slump was very shortsighted

From January 2002-2004, the aircraft sold a grand total of 7 (seven!) units.... and you call that a "temporary slump?"

I'm surprised that the shareholders didn't flay the executives alive, for allowing it to even get *that* far.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13148
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:06 am

Quoting Oshkosh1 (Reply 42):
I'm with others who are baffled with the A.Net infatuation with the '57

It's something of an oddball:
its birth as a medium-haul people-mover, combined with its maturation as a transatlantic-capable longhauler, makes it sort of an evolutionary missing-link between narrowbodies (which it is) and widebodies (which it can operate like).
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
135mech
Posts: 411
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:56 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:07 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 6):

Quoting blacksoviet (Thread starter):
Should Boeing have preserved the 757 production line for future use?

No.

They should have got one of those mind wiper things from Men In Black to stop a.netters from constantly trying to revive a development dead end!!

HAHAHA!!! That's hilarious! While the 757 is an amazing aircraft, there was a reason it was no longer produced! AND...this would be the 757th thread on this subject.  Big grin

135Mech

[Edited 2016-04-28 22:18:26]
135Mech
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:20 am

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 24):
The 757 tooling has gone to airplane heaven, it WONT be coming back..

Tell that to Steven King.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
User avatar
CARST
Posts: 1556
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:00 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:59 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 39):
It was a huge mistake to destroy the tooling. Otherwise we would be spared this topic continually being recreated.

Yeah, right, because the people on a.net have so much knowledge about the airline business and Boeing internal information. Noone here knows how the last talks with airlines went, when Boeing decided to ditch the 757.


Wait for the MOM plane, which will be a 757/767 mix and be able to transport containerised cargo. It won't cut into 737 or 787 sales that much, but fill in a new role like the 757/767 did in the 80s.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9291
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:30 am

Quoting reltney (Reply 8):
As a pilot, I have flown both and there is nothing better than the 757 . Transcontinental 757 can cross both ways with full pax fuel cargo. The 321 we would be seat restricted westbound almost all the time and cargo suffered. 320 was better but of course smaller.

You obviously never had to foot the fuel bill.
( the 757 is capable but not efficient.)

Now NEOing a plane that already has the range/payload you target results in an "overranged airframe that is too heavy".
( reason why initially underranged frames like the A321 or A330 sell/sold quite well with substantial range extensions over time )

Current 757 use is an expensive stopgap use enabled by existing well used frames already paid for long ago.
( and fits in with the "preferably no investments" of the US marketplace.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: A Mistake For Boeing To Destroy The 757 Tooling?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:41 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 48):
( and fits in with the "preferably no investments" of the US marketplace.)

Boy, you almost made it through a whole post - then thud. Oh well, there's always tomorrow.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos