BA
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Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:47 pm

Renderings have been released of the proposed 2-gate terminal at Paine Field.

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/201...55/1172/Terminal-drawings-unveiled

This will bring much needed relief to congested Sea-Tac.
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atypical
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:35 am

Quoting BA (Thread starter):
This will bring much needed relief to congested Sea-Tac.

Really? Two gates and zero announced airlines. I am not entirely sure two more gates at Sea-Tac itself would be much relief.
 
Sparrow787
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:40 am

You can expect Alaska to throw Horizon air in there and even see some juneau, LA or ANC mainline
 
BA
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:40 am

Quoting atypical (Reply 1):
Really? Two gates and zero announced airlines. I am not entirely sure two more gates at Sea-Tac itself would be much relief.

There isn't a need for more than two gates when it will be limited to a dozen flights per day.

The Snohomish County region is growing rapidly. They should easily find interest to fill up a dozen flights.

Quote:
Propeller has not disclosed which airlines or destinations it has in mind for the terminal.“There's interest from a number of carriers,” Smith said. “Clearly, we wouldn't build this unless we were comfortable that we had an airline.”
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
WaywardMemphian
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:47 am

I am sure Southwest is thrilled considering what they wanted to do at Boeing.

Allegiant anyone? It's the same outfit involved with Silver Comet Field near Atlanta that Delta is fighting tooth and nail.

Use the quiet C Series to fly the routes, that would be a hoot.

[Edited 2016-04-28 17:49:45]

[Edited 2016-04-28 18:09:53]
 
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atypical
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:42 am

Quoting BA (Reply 3):

There isn't a need for more than two gates when it will be limited to a dozen flights per day.

The Snohomish County region is growing rapidly. They should easily find interest to fill up a dozen flights.

This is a different subject that reliving Sea-Tac. One does not necessarily follow the other.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:59 am

Quoting Sparrow787 (Reply 2):
You can expect Alaska to throw Horizon air in there and even see some juneau, LA or ANC mainline

Horizon will almost certainly be at PAE, probably doing GEG/PDX-PAE. AS might do PAE-LAX/SFO/LAS but I can't see much else. Of course, they could always prove me wrong.  

Allegiant will almost certainly be in PAE as well.

I wouldn't mind seeing PAE-ORD/LAS/LAX on NK (just for fun) or PAE-DEN on F9.

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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:44 am

Quoting atypical (Reply 5):
This is a different subject that reliving Sea-Tac. One does not necessarily follow the other.

It'd help at least a little. They're in the same region. Some WN flights at PAE could make a dent in relieving SEA.

Couldn't an airline use Boeings delivery center as a terminal? It has 2 jetbridges and is a brand-new, existing building.
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LAX772LR
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:11 am

Quoting BA (Reply 3):
when it will be limited to a dozen flights per day

For how long? Is there an end to whatever agreement/legislation limits it to that?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
cha747
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:13 pm

Just curious (don't have an opinion either way) - would it make sense for UA, AA, or DL to have contract flights from PAE to Chicago area or North Charleston so its easier for vendors or lower level Boeing personnel to travel for work? Not to discount the growth in Snohomish County but with traffic I'm sure it's a pain (npi) to travel to SEA and then drive up to Snohomish county routinely.
You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
 
sw733
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:25 pm

Quoting cha747 (Reply 9):
would it make sense for UA, AA, or DL to have contract flights from PAE to Chicago area or North Charleston so its easier for vendors or lower level Boeing personnel to travel for work?

I guess it would depend on the numbers of people flying between Charleston and Seattle each way, each day. Even with Boeing and their suppliers, I have trouble believing those airlines could fill an A319/A320 or 737 each way, each day. But I could be wrong. And even if they could, it would likely be one flight a day, in which case unless your schedule lined up well, it may still be worth flying to SeaTac and driving up...the drive can be a pain, sure, but it can also be quite easy depending on when you do it.

Chicago doesn't have much Boeing presence aside from the HQ.

[Edited 2016-04-29 06:26:46]
 
HPRamper
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:22 pm

Quoting atypical (Reply 5):
This is a different subject that reliving Sea-Tac. One does not necessarily follow the other.
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 7):
It'd help at least a little. They're in the same region. Some WN flights at PAE could make a dent in relieving SEA.

While there would be some local stimulation north of Seattle, I personally think the majority of the benefit will be as a reliever for SEA. Even with all regional aircraft you're still looking at between 800 and 1000 seats per day, in each direction and while that's a drop in the bucket compared to SEA it's also a lot bigger than zero. I continue to feel that the vast majority of people flying from PAE would be traveling from SEA otherwise so the benefit is direct and obvious, and if mainline ends up at PAE also then that's that many more butts in the seats.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 6):
Horizon will almost certainly be at PAE, probably doing GEG/PDX-PAE. AS might do PAE-LAX/SFO/LAS but I can't see much else. Of course, they could always prove me wrong.

Allegiant will almost certainly be in PAE as well.

I wouldn't mind seeing PAE-ORD/LAS/LAX on NK (just for fun) or PAE-DEN on F9.

NK is getting established at SEA now and I'm not so sure they would up and move, especially since lately they have been seeking out the fortress hubs to make their niche. Old Spirit I think absolutely would have gone for PAE. I also do not believe WN will bother with PAE although they will probably give some lip service. In my opinion PAE will be a QX/Allegiant/F9 airport, with FedEx also starting flight ops before too long. QX I foresee being heavily short range, with 3x GEG, 3x PDX, 1x YVR frequency on Q400 and 1x each E-175 to LAX and SFO. Two flights on F9 and one on Allegiant daily. FedEx I foresee 2x 757 daily with possibly a 767 in the mornings instead.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 10):
I guess it would depend on the numbers of people flying between Charleston and Seattle each way, each day. Even with Boeing and their suppliers, I have trouble believing those airlines could fill an A319/A320 or 737 each way, each day.

AS pulls off nonstop SEA-CHS although I have not seen any numbers regarding loads or profitability. I highly doubt there is room for any more capacity on that route which is thin as it is. What you suggest would basically be an employee flight subsidized by Boeing and the airlines and with the way they are cutting headcount and costs these days, I just don't see it happening.

Sound Transit light rail is apparently fairly definite for Paine Field and with a terminal being built the political pressure will be even higher. Unfortunately the timeline is 2041 at the earliest.
 
FATFlyer
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:19 pm

A different media report includes this quote

Quote:
Smith says Paine Field has plenty of interest from commercial carriers—but he wouldn’t say which ones.

"Unfortunately I am not at liberty to discuss, that’s the airline’s prerogative,” Smith explained. He did say, though, that the planes would be mostly 737s, the dozen or so daily flights likely regional and a benefit to the community.

http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/cont...-unveiled-at-paine-field/247989916

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 6):

Allegiant will almost certainly be in PAE as well.

It probably depends on the cost to operate there.

On the other hand, former Allegiant COO Steve Harfst is now President at Propellor Airports (developer of this terminal at PAE). His post-departure relationship with Allegiant's senior management might also be a factor.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:37 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 10):
I guess it would depend on the numbers of people flying between Charleston and Seattle each way, each day. Even with Boeing and their suppliers, I have trouble believing those airlines could fill an A319/A320 or 737 each way, each day. But I could be wrong. And even if they could, it would likely be one flight a day, in which case unless your schedule lined up well, it may still be worth flying to SeaTac and driving up...the drive can be a pain, sure, but it can also be quite easy depending on when you do it.

I have a friend with Boeing who travels regularly to CHS, and he neither lives nor works in Snohomish County. A CHS flight for him would make zero sense from PAE. I'm guessing that it'd be more likely to see continued minimal SEA-CHS nonstops at this stage since they will likely be filling the planes with mostly non-Boeing folks traveling to, or connecting over SEA.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
NK is getting established at SEA now and I'm not so sure they would up and move, especially since lately they have been seeking out the fortress hubs to make their niche. Old Spirit I think absolutely would have gone for PAE.

I agree. However, their new CEO has experience as well as cautious optimism about adding secondary markets from what I can tell.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
QX I foresee being heavily short range, with 3x GEG, 3x PDX, 1x YVR frequency on Q400 and 1x each E-175 to LAX and SFO. Two flights on F9 and one on Allegiant daily. FedEx I foresee 2x 757 daily with possibly a 767 in the mornings instead.

Sounds about right to me.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
Unfortunately the timeline is 2041 at the earliest.

Ridiculous, but with Sound Transit's record to date (double the time, double the money, still short of the initial stations/miles plan), I'm not surprised.

-Dave
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Prost
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:08 pm

I wonder if AA to PHX and LAX, UA to SFO and DL to SLC & LAX on E75 would pencil out.
 
jbrusnak
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:32 pm

Not only are the destinations a factor, frequency is as well. I was very excited when LAX was going to get service from BLI, but then it turned out to be scheduled mostly around leisure travel.

Only offering two flights a day on two days a week doesn't help business travel very much. I am not going to stay until Sunday to fly back to Paine.

I think to get true reliever airport status in my mind it is when routine fliers start to use the alternate.
 
b6sea
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:54 pm

If I had to guess, I would say this is going to be largely leisure-oriented. It seems like maybe those QX flights to PDX and GEG could also happen, AS/QX are going to show up no matter what, I think, just to protect their home market just like they said they would at BFI. Maybe LAS or HNL fights from AS too. They could do something similar to what they've done at BLI.

Although Snohomish County is growing, I don't think we'll see all that much demand here, the population is largely residential folks commuting to Seattle or the Eastside or, obviously Boeing. Everett isn't a major business center like Seattle or Bellevue or even Tacoma, so it just seems a little unlikely that a ton of business traffic would materialize here, although no doubt there will be some. I can say that from the Eastside of King County, getting to SeaTac is probably easier than getting to PAE most days or essentially equally difficult.

I'll be very interested to see who shows up to PAE.

PS - I think locals will fight tooth and nail to ensure that the number of flights are limited, but I could be wrong.

[Edited 2016-04-29 13:55:41]
 
a380787
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:57 pm

For starters, it's further from both downtown Seattle and Bellevue areas, and MUCH further for Tacoma, so there's really limited advantage of such a service.
 
HPRamper
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:28 pm

Quoting b6sea (Reply 16):
I'll be very interested to see who shows up to PAE.
Quoting a380787 (Reply 17):
or starters, it's further from both downtown Seattle and Bellevue areas, and MUCH further for Tacoma, so there's really limited advantage of such a service.

PAE will be better for arguably anything north of Lake Union and on the Eastside, north of Bellevue to include Redmond and Bothell. This is a very densely populated area and while most of it is simply residential bedroom communities, Redmond and Kirkland have plenty of money floating around.

I also think BLI will suffer further than it already is if PAE opens in a noticeable way. PAE will pull traffic from the Skagit county area which at the moment is more convenient to BLI than SEA.
 
b6sea
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:43 pm

I don't know, I'm sure the folks developing this terminal would love to say Kirkland and Redmond and Sammamish are all easier to get to from PAE. Having lived in East Redmond and also in Kirkland, I think getting to Everett is far more difficult than SeaTac. Not that either are easy at rush hour, but getting anywhere near Everett has always been a royal pain and I'm sure it's worse now. I really don't think it will be all that compelling compared to the choice and variety you have from SeaTac.

I'm not saying PAE is doomed, but I am saying that having spent a lot of time in traffic going southbound and northbound from the Eastside, that going anywhere near Everett is not a very compelling proposal.

PS - completely agree about pulling Skagit County (and also Whidbey Island) folks from BLI and likely even attracting some traffic from Kitsap/Olympic peninsulas via the Edmonds-Kingston ferry.

I think BLI attracts a lot of traffic from the Vancouver area though, so I'm not sure they should be too worried.

[Edited 2016-04-29 16:47:34]
 
HPRamper
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:50 pm

Quoting b6sea (Reply 19):
I don't know, I'm sure the folks developing this terminal would love to say Kirkland and Redmond and Sammamish are all easier to get to from PAE. Having lived in East Redmond and also in Kirkland, I think getting to Everett is far more difficult than SeaTac. Not that either are easy at rush hour, but getting anywhere near Everett has always been a royal pain and I'm sure it's worse now. I really don't think it will be all that compelling compared to the choice and variety you have from SeaTac.

You certainly have a legitimate viewpoint having lived on the Eastside.

How about this question which I'm looking for a valid answer to..
Assuming a flight to, say, GEG which would be about the same flight length from either, and assume equal price. From what point going north from Bellevue would the drive be shorter to PAE than to SEA? Are we talking about Kingsgate? It seems outlandish to think it would be as far north as Bothell/Woodinville.
 
b6sea
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:58 pm

In my experience that Kingsgate mess is bad news, yes, but also where 405 meets I-5 at Alderwood that backs up pretty considerably too.

Going south on 405, the downtown Bellevue backup to Factoria and then the Renton S-Curves/Kennydale Hill traffic is slow but still moves. I'm always surprised even now that I'll be sitting in that traffic starting near 520 and then ending in Renton and the clock will say it's only been 45 minutes. And if it's really bad, 90 across to I-5 South isn't terrible either.

That's just my experience though. I'm sure some days one way is better than another etc but I would say it's at least an hour/hour and a half from Kirkland/Redmond to either SEA or PAE in normal rush hour traffic. Folks in Bothell and Woodinville probably have an easier time gettig up to PAE than folks in Redmond/Kirkland. You wouldn't think it would be that different, but it can be.

PS - I'm just averaging various daily/weekly commutes I've had through various routes. I obviously have horror stories about every single one where it was significantly worse or, sometimes, better *gasp* than normal.

[Edited 2016-04-29 17:07:09]

PPS - about that GEG flight, I still wonder if it wouldn't be more appealing to have the variety of times at SeaTac over one or two flights at Paine. I mean, QX runs GEG and PDX as shuttles from SeaTac unless I'm mistaken, so if you miss one flight you can hop on the next one or an earlier one if you're early, with only one or two flights at PAE, missing a flight because of traffic in Everett seems like a big risk.


[Edited 2016-04-29 17:18:11]
 
HPRamper
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:22 am

Quoting b6sea (Reply 21):

It's definitely sad that traffic can be so bad that missing flights is a reasonable expectation, but I know you're correct. Yet light rail which would be fantastic to bypass the traffic won't be built to PAE until the 2040s sometime and there is no link planned up the I-405 corridor.

It boggles the mind that Portland was able to build a network of light rail that can take someone anywhere in the entire metro whereas Seattle can barely manage a single spine route that takes seven years to extend by a couple of miles.
 
b6sea
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:32 am

Yeah, I'm hoping Sound Transit will be able to speed up ST3 and roll out the light rail routes more quickly. I mean, 25 years isn't THAT long, I suppose, but I could see more public support for a bolder plan than the one being rolled out this year. I have my issues with Sound Transit, but with the Capitol Hill and UW (my alma mater) stations being opened early and under budget, I'm really optimistic about being able to get more routes on line more quickly (assuming there's funding and a public demand for that to happen).

And, with Eastside and Northgate lines already under construction, that makes SeaTac even easier to get to from North Seattle and Bellevue/Redmond.
 
dc10lover
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:53 am

You never know. Paine Field to Sea - Tac can be another San Jose International to San Francisco International or Santa Ana / John Wayne International to Los Angeles International. See what i mean? (A close secondary airport)

i would go ahead and build it. But i think only 2 gates will not be enough. I see AS / QX & DL using the airport.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:27 am

Quoting b6sea (Reply 23):
I mean, 25 years isn't THAT long

This system started development in 1996. We're looking at close to half a century to get to what you're referencing - to me, that sounds a bit ridiculous - and I'm a train lover. lol My daughter was born in October, 1995. She might have GRAND KIDS by the time the system is built out.

-Dave
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MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
b6sea
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:39 am

True, but the system approved in 1996 did not include the construction of a line to PAE... Saying it took 50 years to build the line to Everett is like saying it took 56 years to build the new 520 bridge because the first one was built in 1963... That's just not how that works, each part of the system has to be planned, funded and approved piece by piece. I don't love it either, I just think that logic is seriously flawed when you look at what was being approved with each Sound Transit vote that has taken place.

PS - but yeah, I also agree that it should have been done quicker.

[Edited 2016-04-29 19:40:46]
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Airline Service To Paine Field Could Start In 2017

Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:44 am

Quoting b6sea (Reply 26):
Saying it took 50 years to build the line to Everett is like saying it took 56 years to build the new 520 bridge because the first one was built in 1963

I understand. However, for all intents and purposes it's the same thing. They already planned on these lines long before the 1996 vote - they're almost a given - but they are taking it in stages because it is so expensive - and obviously it's been double what they expected and taken twice as long as what they expected. In my opinion, nobody in 1996 really believed it'd be in the 2040's before the full system was in place. That's not blaming anyone - it's just how it has gone.

Obviously, having a core system with stations at both SEA and PAE will be a great asset.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.

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