today two BA 777's operated some flights to France, i know BA have done this before to help with the additional passengers who's flight a cancelled.
my question is where from Gatwick flight schedule do they find the 5-6 hours slack for these widebodys to operate a euro flight?
say 5-6 hours slack including turn around time
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- skipness1E
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RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
Aircraft often day/nightstop at LGW for planned maintenance which it's possible to defer. There's often a BA B772 or a VS B744 parked up on the 150s or 170s most days.
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
What surprised me more was that it was two different aircraft
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- Bongodog1964
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RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting Gazdon121 (Thread starter): my question is where from Gatwick flight schedule do they find the 5-6 hours slack for these widebodys to operate a euro flight? |
One appears to have been the LHR spare, the other was probably a result of the LGW 777 fleet doing quite number of routes that aren't operated every day. I recall a while ago that there were some days when LGW required 2 less aircraft than other days.
There is unlikely to be 5 or 6 hours slack in a planes usual schedule as most of the routes have flight times of around 9 hours, the result being a departure from LGW at around 11am, and arrival back at around 7am the next morning.
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
I think BA should operate 777's more often on peak time / busy Euro flights.
Why can't they plan ahead to put spare 777's and 744's on routes when F1 weekends occur for example ?
And we have the Euros coming up in France this summer and demand will be high around England & Wales match days.
Why can't they plan ahead to put spare 777's and 744's on routes when F1 weekends occur for example ?
And we have the Euros coming up in France this summer and demand will be high around England & Wales match days.
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting TC957 (Reply 4): I think BA should operate 777's more often on peak time / busy Euro flights. Why can't they plan ahead to put spare 777's and 744's on routes when F1 weekends occur for example ? And we have the Euros coming up in France this summer and demand will be high around England & Wales match days. |
And why is that? It's not like BA is carrying all attendees for a given event, so there's don't have to use a 777/744. I'm sure they know what the loads are and plan accordingly. Much better to send a full 321 than a 75% full 777/744.
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- Bongodog1964
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RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting TC957 (Reply 4): I think BA should operate 777's more often on peak time / busy Euro flights. Why can't they plan ahead to put spare 777's and 744's on routes when F1 weekends occur for example ? And we have the Euros coming up in France this summer and demand will be high around England & Wales match days. |
It costs far more to fly these birds than the usual A320 series.
Higher structural weight = higher fuel burn + higher landing fees
They have CW, WTP & WT compared to the A320 CE and ET which results in a vastly reduced seat density. These 772's seat 275, the LGW A320's seat 168.
Higher relative purchase cost.
Higher crewing cost
To put it bluntly on bare economics it would have been better for BA to just leave these passengers behind, they are only carrying them to keep them loyal and flying BA.
BA would rather not sell the seats in the 1st place than plan to operate long haul planes on short haul routes.
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
Well, airlines in the Far East seems to do just great scheduling their wide-bodies on short high-demand runs in between their long-haul flights.
Yes, and that customer loyalty should be important. How many won't be able to fly BA to this summer's F1, Euros and wherever else, then go on FR or EZY and say, you know what, this isn't so bad I won't bother with BA in future.
Plus the extra CW capacity will do well with the corporate incentive market to high-profile sporting events.
| Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 6): |
Yes, and that customer loyalty should be important. How many won't be able to fly BA to this summer's F1, Euros and wherever else, then go on FR or EZY and say, you know what, this isn't so bad I won't bother with BA in future.
Plus the extra CW capacity will do well with the corporate incentive market to high-profile sporting events.
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 3): |
Where I got the 5-6 hours from is boarding that flight to france , the flight over 2 hours including taxi and waiting to depart then turn around (which is a 777) fly back and then turnaround and load the long haul products on
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting TC957 (Reply 7): Well, airlines in the Far East seems to do just great scheduling their wide-bodies on short high-demand runs in between their long-haul flights. |
In Europe and the US frequency matters more than capacity. Running 3-4 777s per day between London and Paris is not economical to the airline and beneficial to the passengers.
| Quoting TC957 (Reply 7): Yes, and that customer loyalty should be important. How many won't be able to fly BA to this summer's F1, Euros and wherever else, then go on FR or EZY and say, you know what, this isn't so bad I won't bother with BA in future. Plus the extra CW capacity will do well with the corporate incentive market to high-profile sporting events. |
Whoever's loyal will get a BA ticket. Anyone else is welcome to fly Ryanair/EasyJet as they're likely flying whatever's cheapest anyway.
You also really don't need CW for a flight under 3 hours.
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- Bongodog1964
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RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting TC957 (Reply 7): Well, airlines in the Far East seems to do just great scheduling their wide-bodies on short high-demand runs in between their long-haul flights. |
They must have very inefficient use of their widebodies to be able to do this. Most European airlines wouldn't have the slack to fit in an additional short haul round trip.
| Quoting TC957 (Reply 7): Yes, and that customer loyalty should be important. How many won't be able to fly BA to this summer's F1, Euros and wherever else, then go on FR or EZY and say, you know what, this isn't so bad I won't bother with BA in future. The day when European airlines flew every route their customers could possibly desire are long gone. The customers upped sticks and went with FR and U2 when it suited them. Thats the reason BA withdrew from the regions, it just didn't pay, nor does having spare capacity to put on large numbers of extra seats for a short term event. FR and U2 will play it just the same, I recall Michael O Leary saying that he didn''t care how his former passengers were going to get to their villas when he axed flights. Plus the extra CW capacity will do well with the corporate incentive market to high-profile sporting events. |
who wants to fly CW on a 2 hour flight ?
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting TC957 (Reply 7): es, and that customer loyalty should be important. How many won't be able to fly BA to this summer's F1, Euros and wherever else, then go on FR or EZY and say, you know what, this isn't so bad I won't bother with BA in future. Plus the extra CW capacity will do well with the corporate incentive market to high-profile sporting events. |
| Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 9): Whoever's loyal will get a BA ticket. Anyone else is welcome to fly Ryanair/EasyJet as they're likely flying whatever's cheapest anyway. |
I don't think anyone will struggle to get to France. From London/SE England to many places in France, there's the option to take the Eurostar train too. No BA widebody can match the capacity offered by their trains seating 750-900 passengers! They've also recently introduced direct services from London to Lyon and Marseilles, among other places.
You can even drive or hire a coach (bus) for large groups, not unrealistic at all.
"Freddie Laker may be at peace with his Maker, but he is persona non grata with IATA."- HRH Duke of Edinburgh
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 9): Running 3-4 777s per day between London and Paris is not economical to the airline and beneficial to the passengers. |
I'm not talking about running 3-4 777 LHR - CDG every day.
I'm suggesting BA should do well to match capacity to peak demand when events and forward booking patterns clearly demonstrate a need for use of larger aircraft.
Seat inventory control could mean cheap fare booking classes could be blocked out meaning high yield on such flights to offset the increased costs.
An example - I just checked BA to NCE over the F1 Monaco weekend and it's £900 Friday out Monday back. Yet to JFK there are £743 return flights same dates.
I'm sure BA will do better that weekend running a 777 on a couple of their flights those days full to NCE than half-empty to JFK.
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 6): They have CW, WTP & WT compared to the A320 CE and ET which results in a vastly reduced seat density. These 772's seat 275, the LGW A320's seat 168. |
As a comparison, NH's domestic 772's seat 405, with just 21 business class seats in a 2-3-2 layout.
http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/japan/e/loc...inflight/seatmap/detail.html?c=772
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting TC957 (Reply 12): I'm not talking about running 3-4 777 LHR - CDG every day. I'm suggesting BA should do well to match capacity to peak demand when events and forward booking patterns clearly demonstrate a need for use of larger aircraft. Seat inventory control could mean cheap fare booking classes could be blocked out meaning high yield on such flights to offset the increased costs. An example - I just checked BA to NCE over the F1 Monaco weekend and it's £900 Friday out Monday back. Yet to JFK there are £743 return flights same dates. I'm sure BA will do better that weekend running a 777 on a couple of their flights those days full to NCE than half-empty to JFK. |
Did you look at J fares for the Monaco weekend? I get £400-500 round trip in Y to NCE 27-30 May. JFK on the same day is £900. Plus, I'm sure JFK has a lot of cargo. I don't think JFK flights are running half full - it is summer season after all and, if they were, there wouldn't be so many per day.
I'm not really sure what the argument that you're trying to make is. Whoever wants to go places at peak time won't need BA to operate wide bodies, there's plenty of choice and that's fine. Between numerous airlines, trains and cars, I think we're doing ok.
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting Gazdon121 (Reply 2): What surprised me more was that it was two different aircraft |
Just for clarification one operated out of LHR (to MRS) and the other out of LGW (to NCE).
| Quoting TC957 (Reply 12): I'm sure BA will do better that weekend running a 777 on a couple of their flights those days full to NCE than half-empty to JFK. |
The two substitutes detailed above are on the longest LON-France routes. With the cost of operating a low-density 772 fitted with lie-flat seats on very short-haul flights it is not surprising that BA chose the longest of these very short-haul routes to use their spare 772 capacity on thus minimising their financial loss. As for 'half-empty' note that the load factor on BA's JFK flights in the March to September 2014 period have been reported by the US authorities as being 82.9 per cent with an average passenger load per flight of 232.
| Quoting TC957 (Reply 12): I'm sure BA will do better that weekend running a 777 on a couple of their flights those days full to NCE than half-empty to JFK. |
At the prices quoted for their LHR-NCE rotations on the F1 weekend I would describe operating a limited capacity aircraft (that enables these prices to be charged) to be a very solid financial success. Using a larger (772) aircraft would dilute the revenue per seat and, with the additional costs of operating a premium-rich, long-haul aircraft , increase the costs per seat.
A great idea if an airline has a 772 configured with very high density, non-premium seating. But that is not part of the BA business model. Their highest density 772s have 283 seats. Those that recently operated to France have 275. NH operates 405 seat 772s. BA's 380s have 469 seats or just 16 per cent more than NH's short-haul 772s And BA's 'Super Hi J' configured 744s seat up to 275 passengers or two-thirds of the number in an NH short-haul 772.
It might be suggested that the small fleet of LGW based 283 seat 772s serving the Caribbean and Florida markets could be used. But these aircraft are still fitted with 64 (heavy) premium class seats (40 x J, 24 x W). They are also consistently the most heavily utilised aircraft that BA operates. So they are unlikely to be taken off their (profitable) trans-Atlantic routes to operate (likely unprofitable) flights to France,
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting VV701 (Reply 15): At the prices quoted for their LHR-NCE rotations on the F1 weekend I would describe operating a limited capacity aircraft (that enables these prices to be charged) to be a very solid financial success. Using a larger (772) aircraft would dilute the revenue per seat and, with the additional costs of operating a premium-rich, long-haul aircraft , increase the costs per seat. |
The point I'm trying to make is that events like F1 attract high-spending clientele and extra traffic associated with the running of the event. Of course I know BA aren't in the pile them high sell them cheap market.
Clever use of yield management in not offering cheap fares, like they do on Caribbean routes over Christmas, means people pay what BA demand.
I'm sure there will be loads of biz-jets heading to NCE out of LTN & FAB that weekend with the kind of clientele BA could take with a premium product.
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- BestWestern
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RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting TC957 (Reply 16): The point I'm trying to make is that events like F1 attract high-spending clientele and extra traffic associated with the running of the event. Of course I know BA aren't in the pile them high sell them cheap market. |
And the widebodies return empty to London as the demand is one way during events.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17): the demand is one way during events. Fair point of course. |
RE: Two BA 777's Operate Shorthaul Flight
| Quoting TC957 (Reply 7): Yes, and that customer loyalty should be important. How many won't be able to fly BA to this summer's F1, Euros and wherever else, then go on FR or EZY and say, you know what, this isn't so bad I won't bother with BA in future. Plus the extra CW capacity will do well with the corporate incentive market to high-profile sporting events. |
And back in the real world, it's summer time. Everything is operating to a tight schedule and capacity is at a premium. BA just don't have the flexibility in its fleet to be randomly scheduling "spare" aircraft to irregular random events. They work to a 7 day schedule where every scheduled flight is precisely rostered to make the maximum use of its assets both aircraft and crew. Any given day an employee can check the Operational Dashboard available to them and see how many spare aircraft from each fleet is available and most of the time the figure is in the red with few if any aircraft available.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
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