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cx828
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HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:30 pm

Airport Authority Welcomes Government’s Approval for the Draft Outline
Zoning Plan and Reclamation Related to Three-runway System

http://www.hongkongairport.com/eng/media/press-releases/pr_1212.html
 
a380787
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:34 pm

Have they solved the take-off airspace issue where 3rd runway intersects with traffic out of MFM ?
 
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sassiciai
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:46 pm

OK, I note this and congratulate HK on being able to move quickly - it certainly puts London to shame

But I have been through HKG several times in the last year, and I already see major reclamation works underway, and always assumed it was for the 3rd runway. I see near the freight area construction of a new elevated road, but that doesnt explain the reclamation that you can see to your right as you approach HKG from Hong Kong

Appreciate if someone could enlighten us as to what all the currently on-going works are for
 
cx828
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:48 pm

That is a bridge the connect Hong Kong, Macau and mainland china three way together.
 
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moo
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:50 pm

And that, Mr Cameron and Mr Corbyn, is how you make decisions about runways.
 
a380787
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:56 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 2):
OK, I note this and congratulate HK on being able to move quickly - it certainly puts London to shame
Quoting moo (Reply 4):
And that, Mr Cameron and Mr Corbyn, is how you make decisions about runways.

UK is a lot closer to a true democracy while HKG now is essentially whatever the pro-beijing party wants, since a simple majority rules and no effective countermeasures like filibuster. For all practical purposes, the 3rd runway decision was done by "royal decree".

Another difference is that HKG is just landfilling out to the ocean, which is a lot easier than dealing with NIMBYs and existing neighborhoods around LHR. Noise impact from the 3rd runway is also minimal at best.
 
cx828
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:05 pm

In fact,, some citizens in HK files the judicial review to try to stop the third runway project for harming the dolphins and saying that the cost and benefits was not justified economically.
It cost almost 20 billions US dollars for the whole project.

[Edited 2016-04-29 09:10:27]
 
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zeke
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:35 pm

Quoting cx828 (Reply 6):
It cost almost 20 billions US dollars for the whole project.

The airport brings in over 10 billion to the HKG economy every year. Time to start working on the 4th runway.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
cx828
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:05 pm

AA say that they try to start operate one hour earlier as it is approaching 68 an hour.
 
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jsnww81
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:40 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 2):
OK, I note this and congratulate HK on being able to move quickly - it certainly puts London to shame

By Chinese standards, the third HKG runway has been a long process. If this were an airport inside China proper, it'd be open by now.  

Pretty remarkable how air service in the Pearl River region has grown in the last decade... HKG building a third runway, CAN opened a third and is building a massive second terminal, SZX is now one of China's busiest airports, and even little Zhuhai (which was lampooned as a white elephant when it was built) is growing. MFM is growing too, but I'm not aware of any plans to expand it - its layout doesn't really make expansion easy.
 
pasu129
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:55 pm

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 9):
Pretty remarkable how air service in the Pearl River region has grown in the last decade... HKG building a third runway, CAN opened a third and is building a massive second terminal, SZX is now one of China's busiest airports, and even little Zhuhai (which was lampooned as a white elephant when it was built) is growing. MFM is growing too, but I'm not aware of any plans to expand it - its layout doesn't really make expansion easy.

And that is the exact reason why it was such a debate on air-space usage within the delta area.

Nevertheless, 3rd runway is much needed for HKG to continue to grow as "Asia's World City". I vividly remember when, then new from Kai Tak, HKIA was in R&D it had gotten so much push-back from all parties and even dubbed "The Rose Garden Project", but no one now can deny that HKIA is one of the most efficient and a world-class airport, proud jewel of Hong Kong.

I can only hope that 3rd runway and all the landside facilities will match, if not enhance, the existing facilities.
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sassiciai
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:57 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
Another difference is that HKG is just landfilling out to the ocean, which is a lot easier than dealing with NIMBYs and existing neighborhoods around LHR. Noise impact from the 3rd runway is also minimal at best.

Boris Island airport, anyone? The only NIMBYs there are fish and seagulls!
 
a380787
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:02 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 11):
Boris Island airport, anyone? The only NIMBYs there are fish and seagulls!

And how does that solve LHR #3 exactly ?
 
ZBA2CGX
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:08 pm

 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:58 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 7):
The airport brings in over 10 billion to the HKG economy every year. Time to start working on the 4th runway.

That's not an argument. At least not in the UK...

Quoting ZBA2CGX (Reply 13):
with some more details

Thank you. Very interesting reading.

I can also recommend the youtube video: https://youtu.be/KW-lSo7iyx0

I do have some questions and observations though:

First, I love the project style: step 1, make land, step 2, build a runway on it, step 3, build the airport facilities.

Second, they have a good arrangement on how the building works won't affect current operations, by moving traffic to the new runway while the centre runway is being modified. But I didn't quite understand what the plan was for the centre runway and taxiways. I thought the idea was that you don't have to cross it to get to Terminal 2 from the new runway. But doesn't that involve a long taxi to the end of the centre runway to get around it?

Finally, will connecting be possible without having to go to Terminal 2?
 
kaitak
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:22 am

Looks very impressive and congrats to HK Airport.

I see that the current 07L/25R will be closed and reconstructed, so I take it that for some time 07R/25L will operate as the main runway for the current airport complex (unless they plan sending aircraft all the way over to the new runway, which will be quite some distance from the existing complex).

Is it also planned that 07R/25L will be closed and rebuilt at some stage.
 
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sassiciai
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:59 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 12):

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 11):
Boris Island airport, anyone? The only NIMBYs there are fish and seagulls!

And how does that solve LHR #3 exactly ?

I was actually responding to this:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
Another difference is that HKG is just landfilling out to the ocean, which is a lot easier than dealing with NIMBYs and existing neighborhoods around LHR. Noise impact from the 3rd runway is also minimal at best.

Of course it does not help LHR 3, but Boris Island is in concept exactly what has been done so successfully to create the current HKG, and adding a third runway requires more landfill with no NIMBYs!
 
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scbriml
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:59 am

Congratulations to HKG.

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 11):
Boris Island airport, anyone?

Boris Island will not happen. Ever. Nobody wants it.

After the EU referendum, Boris will be as relevant as last Friday's fish supper left-overs in the bin awaiting collection.
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G-CIVP
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:55 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 17):
After the EU referendum, Boris will be as relevant as last Friday's fish supper left-overs in the bin awaiting collection.

We don't know what is going to happen...

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 2):
OK, I note this and congratulate HK on being able to move quickly - it certainly puts London to shame
Quoting moo (Reply 4):
And that, Mr Cameron and Mr Corbyn, is how you make decisions about runways.

Well it is not an easy decision as one thing we are short on in the South East is space!
 
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Francoflier
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:58 am

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
And that, Mr Cameron and Mr Corbyn, is how you make decisions about runways.

Careful what you wish for.

HK might still be somewhat structurally different from China and it might have a modern and fair legal system, it is far from being an open and free democracy. The government is elected by a small group of people the nomination thereof is quite murky business to say the least. Long story short, HK's governing body is elected by and works mainly for those who control most of the businesses and the pro-Beijing figures...

This means that while decisions might be taken quickly by Western democracy standard, it doesn't mean that these decisions will have been made while carefully considering the impact on all strata of the population.

The third runway might be a bad example as it is sorely needed in HK, but the other ongoing major infrastructure projects are proving to be costing the HK taxpayers a lot more than they thought they were supposed to pay, and their ultimate benefits are being questioned.

In any case, the cases of HKG vs. LHR are so radically different in context that they are not even worth comparing.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 15):
I see that the current 07L/25R will be closed and reconstructed,
Quoting kaitak (Reply 15):
Is it also planned that 07R/25L will be closed and rebuilt at some stage.

Yes, and this goes to show that HKG will not have the effective benefit of three runways until much after the project completion date, which itself is still at least 10 years away...

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 9):
MFM is growing too, but I'm not aware of any plans to expand it - its layout doesn't really make expansion easy.

MFM's strategic importance as an airport is likely to remain relatively low, especially when compared to its neighbors.
It is not a very busy airport, and the gambling tourism slump in Macau isn't helping.
With the opening of the HK-Macau-Zuhai bridge, MFM will be 20 minutes away from HKG by ground transportation, and not too much farther from SZX. Zuhai airport, which has room for expansion, is also quite close.
I don't see the need for expanding it. Some even question its usefulness altogether.

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 2):
but that doesnt explain the reclamation that you can see to your right as you approach HKG from Hong Kong

This is an artificial island built as part of the larger HK-Macau-Zuhai link. It will host a massive immigration terminal to process road traffic between the cities. The underwater tunnels connecting Shenzhen through HK's west territories will also make landfall there. My understanding is that it will also house a variety of airport and aviation related buildings as well as a parking lot and a shopping mall or two for good measure...

Quoting a380787 (Reply 1):
Have they solved the take-off airspace issue where 3rd runway intersects with traffic out of MFM ?

The major issue will be dealing with the Chinese airspace just north of HK's own airspace. Arrival corridors to runways 07 and 25 are quite restricted by it. Especially 07 as they are squeezed between the airport, MFM and the impenetrable Guangzhou airspace. I imagine that creative use of tight RNP RNAV procedures will be the key here, unless they finally manage to create the long awaited 'Pearl Delta River' merged ATC agency...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
peterinlisbon
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:04 pm

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 9):
By Chinese standards, the third HKG runway has been a long process. If this were an airport inside China proper, it'd be open by now.

In China they opened the world's largest shopping centre and it lays empty, like a ghost town in a zombie movie. I've seen many places like this. There are many newly built ghost towns in China. There is so much construction on a huge scale, regardless of demand. Perhaps HK is lucky that things take a bit longer there.
 
Carfield
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:29 pm

I am firmly opposed to HKG's third runway in Hong Kong simply because there is no confirmed agreement regarding the use of air space around HKG. If you look at the map, HKG, MFM, Zuhai, and Shenzhen all share overlapping airspace. There are all these murky information from the government, regarding the other three airports agree to HKG's expanded use of airspace. I don't even think there is anything more than a verbal agreement. Given the political situation in the PRC, I will even hesitate if there are concrete agreements being signed now. There will be at least one or two major power change within the next two decades, so all these agreements even if in written form might not mean much.

If this third runway ends up being restricted to just landing or takeoff, as some of the studies suggest, it is simply unjustified for tax payers to cough up all this money. No country using a democratic system will approve such a project because that runway may end up only adding 50% of its planned capacity, or in worst case scenario, it just sits there collecting dust.

All these economic figures are not trustworthy and given the current political atmosphere, what role will Hong Kong play in the future? Hong Kong will return to China in 2047, and what does that return even mean? Will the PRC choose to keep Hong Kong as its major gateways to the world? Or will they focus on Shanghai and Beijing? Guangzhou New Baiyun airport is a big airport, and will the PRC choose to use that airport as its gateway? Hong Kong is currently a Special Administrative Region, which means PRC citizens cannot just come to HK with no special permit. For Mainland Chinese, going to HK is an international flight, and requires similar clearance. Because of that requirement, it makes Hong Kong a perfect hub for PRC travelers now, especially those living in the South. What will happen if that changes? CX and KA hub will no longer make sense, and how will capacity change?

With all these clouds above HKG, what does this third runway project mean? Will it be a waste of money?

I don't think HKG is a fair comparison to the current situation at LHR, despite HK was once a British colony.

Carfield
 
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zeke
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Sun May 01, 2016 8:35 am

Quoting Carfield (Reply 21):
I am firmly opposed to HKG's third runway in Hong Kong simply because there is no confirmed agreement regarding the use of air space around HKG. If you look at the map, HKG, MFM, Zuhai, and Shenzhen all share overlapping airspace.

I am not sure what you are on about. The area that these airports cover serve triple the population of New York, Los Angles, San Francisco, and Chicago combined. What makes it possible for multiple large airports in the US to share airspace at those cities and not in the Pearl River Delta ?

You do realize that HKIA also runs Zuhai airport ?

Quoting Carfield (Reply 21):
If this third runway ends up being restricted to just landing or takeoff,

What is the other use do you see being prohibited .....crashing ? HKG runs now with one runway for takeoffs and one for landing. The occasional freighter or biz jet also go onto 07R/25L when used for takeoffs as it is closer to parking.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 21):
no country using a democratic system will approve such a project because that runway may end up only adding 50% of its planned capacity

What on earth are you talking about ? The current airport is close to 100% capacity now. The airport today generates 5% of the GDP in HKG, if you add 50% capacity, that contribution will increase.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 21):
Hong Kong will return to China in 2047, and what does that return even mean?

What on earth are you talking about ? It is part of China, HKG SAR.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 21):
With all these clouds above HKG, what does this third runway project mean?

All I get from your contribution is that you are so out of touch with the developments that it would better not to comment.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Carfield
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Sun May 01, 2016 8:05 pm

Zeke... I don't think you should silence me and i stand by my statements. I think I have ready enough about the runway project to know what I am talking about. This is not the way to conduct yourself in a forum.

There is a different between a SAR and completely being part of China. If it is the same, all Hong Kong flights will consider domestic PRC flights, rather than international flights.

The airspace issue is well documented in local press and due to geographical location of the airport, there are issues that need to be resolved, especially about the airspace.

As of this point, I will continue to comment because that is my freedom to do so, which is something that the PRC government is trying to take away from Hong Kong people. This forum is for everyone to have a respectful discussion, not to be put anyone down.

The only thing that I will agree is that HKG is obviously at its maximum capacity, but if this third runway cannot be utilized, the price tag cannot be justified. If Hong Kong is a democratic country and if HK public officials are being held accountable, I don't think this project will go through.

Carfield
 
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zeke
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Mon May 02, 2016 2:33 am

Quoting Carfield (Reply 23):
I think I have ready enough about the runway project to know what I am talking about.

Sorry you dont, you posts clearly demonstrate that.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 23):
This is not the way to conduct yourself in a forum.

I have every right to correct non-factual post like yours. This is first and foremost support to be a forum where FACTUAL information is shared, not what someone makes up.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 23):
There is a different between a SAR and completely being part of China.

That does not mean in any way it is not part of China. Why would we have a PLA garrison downtown and at the of of the smaller airports if it was not part of China ? China has many "special" regions/areas, Macau and Hong Kong are SARs as defined by Article 31 of the Constitution of the People's Republic of China.

Independence is something that is a very hot topic at the moment in HKG, it is in the local papers almost every day.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 23):
If it is the same, all Hong Kong flights will consider domestic PRC flights, rather than international flights.

No, just like other special areas in China, the rules are different.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 23):
The airspace issue is well documented in local press and due to geographical location of the airport, there are issues that need to be resolved, especially about the airspace.

The airspace has always been busy, it does not mean the 3rd and 4th runway cannot work. People who say it cannot work are normally people who are not in the industry.

Here are some facts to ponder
The distance from HKG to MFM as the crow flies is 20 nm, SZX 21 nm, ZUH 35 nm, CAN 73 nm.



LHR to LCY is 19 nm, LHR to LGW is 22 nm, LHR to LTN is 24 nm, LHR to STN is 36 nm, LHR to SEN is 44 nm



The distance from JFK to LGA is 9 nm, JFK to EWR is 18 nm, JFK to ISP 22nm, JFK-SWF 54 nm there are over 20 other smaller airports .



San Francisco Bay you have SFO to OAK is 10 nm, SFO-SJC is 26 nm and like NYC, over 20 other smaller airports.



DXB to SHJ is 9 nm, to DWC is 24 nm, to FJR 53 nm, to AUH 63 nm

Quoting Carfield (Reply 23):
The only thing that I will agree is that HKG is obviously at its maximum capacity, but if this third runway cannot be utilized, the price tag cannot be justified

HKG is very near maximum capacity, there is still some slots in the early morning but there is no viable public transport (trains top and buses are on reduced schedules) apart from taxis at that time of night.

Your statement that the 3rd runway cannot be used is something you have made up that is not supported by facts.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 23):
If Hong Kong is a democratic country and if HK public officials are being held accountable, I don't think this project will go through.

HKG is democratic to a extent and slowly progressing, there are currently elections for public officials, there will be universal suffrage for the Chief Executive in 2017. Hong Kong does have the ICAC which has taken down public officials.

The airport is needed more for HKG than the high speed train. The bridge connection to MFM, SZX, and ZUH will be good for HKIA.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Carfield
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Mon May 02, 2016 5:14 am

I once again stand by my statements and nothing will silence me.

My political POV is clear and I firmly believe that there is a difference in Hong Kong's status between the Special Administrative Region and being a province/city of China. Hong Kong (and Macau) are run under a "one country two system" political system. Hong Kong is governed by basic laws, and that is different from the laws in the PRC. In addition, PRC citizens cannot just come to Hong Kong or Macau without these special permits, and that demonstrates while Hong Kong is part of China, it is being run as an autonomous state.

Plus there is no democratic progression in Hong Kong, and there is no universal suffrage in 2017. The irony is that the proposal by the HK (well more like PRC) government is to have a committee of 1200 committee (which are mostly Pro-People's Republic of China PRC business and political elites) to first select two or three candidates, and only then, Hong Kong people have a choice to select their leaders. With no open primary, it is ultimately a faux election and most Hong Kong people have shot down that inherently unfair election. There is regression, but definitely no progression. Corruptions are on the rise, but ICAC is being less effective. The Umbrella Rebellion has shown how frustrated Hong Kong people feel about their current government. CY Leung has proved to be an incompetent leader, and his recent debacle concerning his daughter's lost carry on is an embarrassment to the city.

When Hong Kong becomes a fully PRC controlled Chinese city in 2047, what will happen to the status of flights to HK? Will it be a domestic flight, or will it remain an international flight today? If it turns into a domestic flight, it means that all PRC citizens will have to clear immigration and custom in Hong Kong, before continue to their final destination in China. Will CX and KA's status as a hub a viable option? By 2047, will PRC citizens till need to come to HK to transfer, as there are more nonstop links between major and even secondary Chinese citizens and many major cities in the world. As of this point, no one will know because who knows what will happen to Hong Kong and China by then.

All the cities that mention above have different geography than Hong Kong. The LA basin area is basically a large piece of land with no mountains and only towards the East, you see those mountains. Airports like LGB and SNA have slot restrictions. The SFO area is a bit different because it features the same hilly environment as Hong Kong, but other than SFO, which has limitation to runway use during weather. As someone who flies in and out of SFO frequently, delays at SFO are frequent because of the ways they build the runway and any weather change can affect the usage. OAK and SJC are good secondary airports, but while OAK has three runways, most commercial occurs in one runway. SJC is a pair of parallel runways. The Dubai area is basically a desert, plus the population density is low. They are more spread out, and the traffic patterns are very different between DXB/AUH and the rest. Most importantly, the airspace in these quoted countries are mostly open to all commercial traffic with little interference from military activities of the host countries.

Hong Kong airport is surrounded by hills, and there is specific path in and out of HKG, and the argument that many experts are concerned is that will the hills around the airport limit the usage of the third runway. Plus unlike the cities you have quoted, Chinese air space is more controlled. There can be flight paths in and out of the third runway, but it will also mean that MFM, Shenzhen and Zuhai airport have to make adjustment to flight paths in and out of their cities. Have those two cities agree to possible flight path changes? Zuhai is run by HKG, but does it mean Zuhai automatically agree to these changes? Many news reports have already pointed out that the there will be a clash of airspace between Shenzhen and new HKG runway. Plus the Chinese can always take over any airspace for military use, and is the military willing to make compromise? To ask a even bigger question, will the PRC limit growth at airports in Shenzhen, Zuhai and even Guangzhou just to accommodate Hong Kong, a relatively small city? Unlike the US and UAE, the military in the PRC has lots of political power, so that airspace issue is going to be tricky.

Guangzhou's New Baiyun airport has a new third runway too, but it is capped at ten rotations per day with an only 15% increase in activities, due to air space issues and the military unwillingness to release more airspace. If Hong Kong does not resolve those air path issues or get some kinds of reassurance that the PRC will free up more airspace for commercial uses, will HKG's third runway suffer the same fate? Sometimes those restricted airspace does not need to be right above Hong Kong, but can have an impact. If they allow some of the CAN and Shenzhen flight to use other air ways, it can free up more spaces for HKG/MFM/Zhuhai. But will that happen?

I am heavily influenced by Lam Chiu Ying's writing. Lam is an ex-director of the Hong Kong Observatory, and has written extensively about the third runway. Since his writing is in Chinese, I am not going to link it here. So many of the information comes from local newspapers and his writing.

In some ways, I realize that HKG is over-capacity and needs ATC relief. However, there are just so many real uncertainties around the effectiveness of the new third runway. Given how some of the major transportation construction are proceeding, I simply don't have that confidence in Hong Kong government's ability to make sure that all these issues will be resolved, and the actual construction can be successfully carry out.

However all these arguments are sort of pointless now, as Hong Kong government, which is mostly controlled by PRC influenced business, political and social elites, is going to carry out the project whether any one of us agree or not. But I don't think it is fair to use HKG's third runway to criticize the LHR's third runway. Despite HKG was a British colony, their ways of governance cannot be more different now.

Does it matter who are correct? The HKG's third runway is going to be built and only times can tell you if the third runway will bring all the benefits that it has promised. I of course wish that those pro-3rd runway is right and the runway will end up really boosting HKG's competitiveness and GDP. Who is not tired of the ATC delay and the circling above the South China Sea. The project will not go over budget. Surely for those who are flying in and out of HKG will have to pay a bit more levy, but at the end, it may be worth it. The terminal is hopefully more than prepared for the increased capacity and there will be no air space concern, as Zhuhai and Shenzhen will compromise because HKG runs Zhuhai airport. The worst case is that we have a beautiful runway that we can all look at and use as a standby runway, if some incidents happen on the other two runways. Useful or not, it is going to happen!

Carfield
 
cx828
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Mon May 02, 2016 6:07 am

One of the popular newspaper discuss that the airport may need to cancel more than 2500 flight in the coming october to synchronize the new and the old atc system which has been delayed for implementation for four years already.
 
cx828
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Mon May 02, 2016 6:29 am

We know that hkg runway is close to full capacity, as I think the third runway may not be just an MR larger than MC issue. As I think airport is a sensitive infrastructure which is part of a national defence for any country, it may be the necessity for country instead of only economy issue, just like highspeed rail which it may not be cost justified, I think the national policy consider a main part here. In fact, hkg runway is almost full , may be some cost of the third runway is not purely monetary , some may be intangible??/
 
CXGabriel
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Mon May 02, 2016 3:09 pm

Quoting Carfield (Reply 26):
When Hong Kong becomes a fully PRC controlled Chinese city in 2047, what will happen to the status of flights to HK?

So are you saying the PRC doesn't not have full control over Hong Kong now? The Basic Law (Hong Kong's Constitution) does not expire in 2047; in fact, it does not have an expiration date. That means Section 4 of the Basic Law concerning civil aviation stands beyond 2047.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 26):
CY Leung has proved to be an incompetent leader, and his recent debacle concerning his daughter's lost carry on is an embarrassment to the city.

I agree with that statement; however, base on my observation, many in HK are objecting to this 3rd runway proposal mainly because they hate the guy so much that they're objecting to this project just for the sake of objecting him. This is insane.

[Edited 2016-05-02 08:11:57]
 
Carfield
Posts: 2186
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Mon May 02, 2016 8:21 pm

I am not going to waste my time to argue for a project that is going to happen whether we like it or not. And some of you think that you are better than others, so there is no ground for an educated discussion.

CXGabriel - I think we can argue about whether PRC is in total control now to death, but there are still some aspects that the PRC are sort of letting HK people to have some says.

I think my argument makes perfect sense and have read enough about the topic to write about it. What some of you try to do is to reduce my argument to political rants, in order to discredit me.

However, there is no universal suffrage coming to HK anytime soon, so given that some of you live in Hong Kong, I am shocked that you are not aware of the events. Then this is not a political forum, but your political point of view definitely tells me why you write certain things. Of course you can say the same things about me. That is just the nature of discussion of any Hong Kong affairs now.

I am not going to continue to argue about the airspace issues because some of you think that you are better than others, but I do look at maps and have lived in the city. I flew in and out of HKG frequently, So I stand by my statement, and most importantly, I read newspapers and other expert's opinion.

Whether we like it or not, the third runway is coming. It is not like the case in other democratic countries, but once again I stand by all my statements. I will continue to comment, as I see appropriate. Bullying will not work! Even if you claim to be an expert at the field, there will always be oppositional voices.

It is hard to take away the political aspect from many of these infrastructure projects in HK, and the HKG third runway is too politicized that it is ultimately beyond the scoop of any aviation forum.

But I will continue to cautious anyone to use the HKG third runway case to argue for or against the LHR third runway case. Of course we all want things to happen based on aviation needs, but that is not the world we live in. There are major differences and the political environment in both countries sometimes determine the outcome.

Carfield

[Edited 2016-05-02 13:28:10]
 
mandala499
Posts: 6593
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Tue May 03, 2016 5:07 am

Quoting Carfield (Reply 29):
And some of you think that you are better than others, so there is no ground for an educated discussion.

Here, have a mirror... the others are discussing, you, sir, however, are not.

I don't give a damn about whether PRC will gobble up HKSAR and abolish the SAR status or not, the fact is, politics aside, the airport is at full capacity and needs expansion. The longer the 3rd runway is delayed, the longer the growth of Hong Kong is choked, which, if HKSAR is to be gobbled up after 2047, puts HK at a disadvantaged. Putting the 3rd runway gives HK economic clout ammunition in it's discussion with the central PRC government in maintaining it's status, at the very least, it provides a more solid footing for HK to remain a major gateway to China after 2047.

I think the people of Hong Kong deserve an airport expansion, the region needs HK Airport to expand, and to hell with politics (and your political views)... You opposing the expansion means you condone economic choking of HK... which sounds like the rhetoric of some very staunch members of the PRC's communist party.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 21):
If you look at the map, HKG, MFM, Zuhai, and Shenzhen all share overlapping airspace. There are all these murky information from the government, regarding the other three airports agree to HKG's expanded use of airspace.

Which maps are you looking at? If you look at the SID/STARs and approach charts, airspace isn't an issue. HK FIR will remain for a while after (and if) HK is gobbled up by PRC. On the issue of airspace for the benefit of traffic flows in and out of HKG, being goobled up by PRC could end up being an advantage solely on those terms, but the realities of surrounding terrain and position as well as orientation of nearby airports, make this moot.

There would be no need to expand HKG airspace with the 3rd runway, some minor modification is needed to expand capacity, but nothing major.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 21):
I don't even think there is anything more than a verbal agreement.

I want to know what you're drinking that made you say this... Those FIR, ATZ and CTZ boundaries on the charts are not based on "mere verbal agreements". The FIR boundaries are registered at ICAO. The ATZ and CTZ boundaries are published, and the coordination is set out under letters of agreements between the ATC service providers... just like in other parts of the world...

Quoting Carfield (Reply 21):
If this third runway ends up being restricted to just landing or takeoff, as some of the studies suggest, it is simply unjustified for tax payers to cough up all this money.

The current capacity is 68 movements an hour... even if the 3rd runway is restricted to just take-offs or landings, the capacity will increase to about 90 an hour.
Economic benefits to HKG for the increase, will make this a nice investment.
You choke an airport, you choke the city's/region's economic growth.

Get over it.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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zeke
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Tue May 03, 2016 7:25 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 30):

Thanks G, it is nice to see when others that can read approach and areas charts can articulate the facts.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3165
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Tue May 03, 2016 8:40 pm

Quoting Carfield (Reply 29):
And some of you think that you are better than others, so there is no ground for an educated discussion.

An educated discussion... like this?

Quoting Carfield (Reply 25):
I once again stand by my statements and nothing will silence me.
 
Carfield
Posts: 2186
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Tue May 03, 2016 9:58 pm

Thank you very much for the education! That is the spirit of airliners.net!
I appreciate it!

But I still stand by my statements and only times can tell who is right or who is wrong! I sincerely hope that you are all right!
It is an expensive project.

Maybe in 2036, when the runway was completed, we can have a discussion about it!

Carfield

[Edited 2016-05-03 15:09:28]
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Tue May 10, 2016 4:55 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 30):
The current capacity is 68 movements an hour... even if the 3rd runway is restricted to just take-offs or landings, the capacity will increase to about 90 an hour.

What is the reason for this low capacity? Other comparable airports, like MUC or LHR, can handle 90 with their two runways. MUC aims for 120 if they get their 3rd runway. Why does HKG handle less movements with its runways? (I am not familiar with any specifics)
 
mandala499
Posts: 6593
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Tue May 10, 2016 7:28 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 34):
What is the reason for this low capacity? Other comparable airports, like MUC or LHR, can handle 90 with their two runways.

Ever tried to put 68 traffic through an hour in a typhoon?   
I haven't but I certainly wouldn't want to try.
Airport runway throughput while ideally you can do 60 movements an hour if you space 1 take off inbetween 2 landings all the time... but airport runway throughput requires more than just the runway. Airspace is one... HKG is limited to use the airspace to the south and southeast near the airport for handling the very low altitude portions of going in and out of HKG.
The standard arrivals end up going through one point for the 2 runways in use at the time... that point is also the only holding point available within 30NM or so from the airport. Mixed runway operation is, for practical purposes, gets thrown out of the window... you don't have the space to juggle the spacings. 3rd runway will enable more capacity without requiring a different kind of juggling to what they are used to now.

Now why did I mention typhoons? Well, where are you going to put the aircraft going around or those who has to give way to an aircraft that recently went around? (go-arounds can happen very often in those conditions)...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
lutfi
Posts: 888
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Wed May 11, 2016 12:47 am

Plus there happen to be high terrain all around. This restricts the go-around paths, which then restricts total movements.

They can actually get up to 6 per 5 minutes (72 an hour) but some buffer is needed for late arrivals/ departures.

I think that the best solution is for there to be equivalent of Eurocontrol for the en-route ATC, and then HKG/MFM/CAN are just responsible for tower ATC control
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Wed May 11, 2016 1:05 am

Great news. This will allow HKG airport and the city to continue growing.

Wow.. It was only 5 years ago I was very SIN would gain a 3rd commercial runway before HKG.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 12):
And how does that solve LHR #3 exactly ?

London needs a large major hub airport. LHR has needed a 3rd runway for 40 years. Avoiding infrastructure spending gets silly. Either 3 runways at LHR or 4 at 'Borris Island's with new rail and road into the city.

Quoting zeke (Reply 22):
? The current airport is close to 100% capacity now. The airport today generates 5% of the GDP in HKG, if you add 50% capacity, that contribution will increase.

HKG should have started construction years ago. The new prime hour slots will fill up quick. I'm all for a 3rd and 4th runway at HKG.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
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zeke
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Wed May 11, 2016 5:33 am

Quoting lutfi (Reply 36):

I can see a time when all aircraft operating into hkg will be required to be able to fly an RNP to GBAS approach allowing for curved approaches and missed approaches. There are already radius to fix departures.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
mandala499
Posts: 6593
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Wed May 11, 2016 6:01 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 38):
I can see a time when all aircraft operating into hkg will be required to be able to fly an RNP to GBAS approach allowing for curved approaches and missed approaches. There are already radius to fix departures.

Gotta love the RNP Y into 07L and R...   
Perhaps the procedure designer missed Kai Tak! LOL I wonder if anyone would take them during bad weather...  
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Wed May 11, 2016 9:53 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 35):
Quoting lutfi (Reply 36):

Thanks for your insights. So HKG has to work with a natural handicap that doesn't allow it to extract as much capacity out of its runways as other comparable airports.

Quoting zeke (Reply 38):
I can see a time when all aircraft operating into hkg will be required to be able to fly an RNP to GBAS approach allowing for curved approaches and missed approaches.

This would allow to extract more capacity out of the existing airspace, correct? Implementing it across the board for all airlines is another stroy though. Then again, it's nothing compared to Kai Tak procedures.
 
SKAirbus
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Thu May 12, 2016 12:22 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 24):
HKG is very near maximum capacity, there is still some slots in the early morning but there is no viable public transport (trains top and buses are on reduced schedules) apart from taxis at that time of night.

It shocked me that there was no early morning Airport Express train from Hong Kong to the Airport... In January we had an early flight from HKG to KIX and ended up having to fork out for a taxi because there were not viable public transport options. Hopefully that will change with expansion.
Base: BRU
 
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Francoflier
Posts: 5411
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RE: HK Government Approved Third Runway In HKG

Thu May 12, 2016 12:59 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 40):
So HKG has to work with a natural handicap that doesn't allow it to extract as much capacity out of its runways as other comparable airports.

The biggest handicap is, if you ask me, the archaic ATC system that HK is using, and the disastrous implementation of the one replacing it (which was supposed to be up and running years ago).

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/e...75m-new-air-traffic-control-system

Runway capacity could be increased - I can't see a reason why not - but the bottleneck is the airspace around it. This new ATC system might, if it eventually does what it says on the tin, help implement tighter spacing for arriving and departing traffic.

As it stands now, HK has technically implemented 3.5 NM separation for landing traffic, but real life application is proving a lot harder.

The debacle of that new ATC system is only one of several major projects relating to infrastructure and transport which have come under scrutiny and criticism for being late, overbudget and in some cases, of dubious benefit to the taxpayer.

I'm one of those who thinks HKG needs a new runway, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do it, and given HK's recent track records in these matters and the scale and price of this one, I understand why some HK taxpayers may be very wary of it.
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