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Boeing778X
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Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:50 pm

With the talk of the CS500 possibly becoming a reality, I began thinking about its characteristics.

Would it have the same wing and engines? Of course, if that's the case, the CS100 will eventually lose sales.
How much longer than the CS300 would it be?
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:15 pm

My guess is that the first iteration would be a simple stretch. Same MTOW as the -300, trading range for passengers. Maybe a row or two longer than the MD-88...say, 180 passengers in single class. Since we're talking years before it will ever fly, Pratt and BBD will have some tweaks to the aircraft by then ensuring at least a 2500nm range.

That would certainly tick all of Delta's boxes when it comes time to phase out all of those Mad Dogs.

Eventually, a HGW/LR version could be offered if airlines really craved more range.
What the...?
 
ytz
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:30 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 1):
180 passengers in single class.

I'd say that's the high density version.


CS100...120 pax in 24 rows.
CS300...140 pax in 28 rows.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Logically I'd say:

CS500... 160 pax in 32 rows.

That's assuming the standard 32" Y pitch. This is only slightly smaller than the A320 which fits 164 in single class 32" pitch all-Y config. At 30" pitch, they'd get 175 in all-Y. Or maybe they can get 180. It might be tough to target the LCC market anyway. They all want cheap Boeing and Airbus narrowbody configs that they can resell. Bombardier's best bet would be with the above config, which let's them get the CS500 to just under 150 seats in 2-class mainline config.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:01 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 2):

I should have said high density for those numbers.

If they could manage a 5 row stretch, and 2500nm range...that would be a heck of a 320neo/738max fighter, and a family of aircraft and offer unbeatable CASM for flights under 4 hours...which are most of them.

I think they can't wait too many more years before getting serious about a -500. Not only will it face fierce competition from Airbus and Boeing, (and eventually Boeing's new plane), but also offerings from COMAC and Irkut.
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JetBuddy
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:47 pm

I believe the CS300 is the base model, while CS100 is the shrunk version? If so, making a CS500 out of the C-Series using the same wings, gear and engines shouldn't be a huge problem.

Quoting ytz (Reply 2):
CS100...120 pax in 24 rows.
CS300...140 pax in 28 rows.

Logically I'd say:

CS500... 160 pax in 32 rows.

That sounds reasonable. The CS300 can take 160 pax now, but in high density configuration. A CS500 with 160 normal single class config and 180 in high density makes sense. Would be just about the exact same size as the A320 in capacity. But it's going to be a long, sleek aircraft with the 5-abreast design.
 
ytz
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:12 am

It's hard to fight the 738MAX because that hits 200 seats for Ryanair. The A320 might be contestable. Because it's at 180 seats in LCC config. But even the A320 seems to be going over 180 seats. So not sure how well Bombardier can play the LCC game.

What Bombardier will have with the CS500 is the perfect mainline narrowbody family in the 100-150 range. Pair the CS500 with the 321NEO and you have the perfect fleet.
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:10 am

If they're going to call it CS500 they should at least be honest and have 500 seats in it. And while we're at it, I think it should be supersonic!
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:29 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 2):

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 1):
180 passengers in single class.

I'd say that's the high density version.


CS100...120 pax in 24 rows.
CS300...140 pax in 28 rows.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Logically I'd say:

CS500... 160 pax in 32 rows.

While I don't disagree, I tend to think they should go 170 (2 additional rows) rather than end up developing a CS700 at some point.

-Dave
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golfradio
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:34 am

Here's how I see it.

1. A length increase of ~3m, 150 seats in typical two class layout.
2. Range of 2900nm
3. Same wing as CS300
4. Same landing gear with gear doors.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:40 am

Quoting golfradio (Reply 8):
Here's how I see it.

1. A length increase of ~3m, 150 seats in typical two class layout.
2. Range of 2900nm
3. Same wing as CS300
4. Same landing gear with gear doors.

Personally I think that's too small, but it does fit the 150/3 f/a bill perfectly. Regardless of 150, 160, or 170, it'll be an awesome bird.

-Dave
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neutrino
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:41 am

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 6):

If they're going to call it CS500 they should at least be honest and have 500 seats in it.

Yeah, and the Lockheed Tristar carried 1011 passengers. And Boeing's Dreamliner at 787 seat count takes in 40 more pax than the Jumbo.  
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ytz
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:35 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 9):
Personally I think that's too small, but it does fit the 150/3 f/a bill perfectly.

No point going over 150 in 2-class unless you can go well over 150.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:45 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 11):
No point going over 150 in 2-class unless you can go well over 150.

I never get the whole save the FA thing. One pax could pay for the FA easy.
 
ytz
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:45 am

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 6):
If they're going to call it CS500 they should at least be honest and have 500 seats in it. And while we're at it, I think it should be supersonic!

They were first called the C110 and C130 to reflect passenger numbers. This created an obvious conflict with a certain military transport. That's when Bombardier changed the name to the CS format.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:50 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 11):

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 9):
Personally I think that's too small, but it does fit the 150/3 f/a bill perfectly.

No point going over 150 in 2-class unless you can go well over 150.

I would think 2 class 170 seats would be more than enough to justify it. The alternative to me would be a CS500 seating 150 2 class and then a CS700 at 180 seats. I just think it's better to split the difference than to pay for two derivative.

-Dave
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MIflyer12
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:06 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 12):
Quoting ytz (Reply 11):
No point going over 150 in 2-class unless you can go well over 150.

I never get the whole save the FA thing. One pax could pay for the FA easy.

With the latest gen of slimlines, DL, AA, and UA all went/are presently going to 160 total on their 738s.

That 'one pax could' thing is a problem under U.S. law. FAs have to be staffed for seat count, not passenger count. 151 seats requires a 4th FA. Load factors suggest that one extra seat won't always be filled. Ten extra seats seems to get them over the hurdle of the extra FA based on present overbooking algorithms.
 
vfw614
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:13 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 12):

I never get the whole save the FA thing. One pax could pay for the FA easy

One pax who pays how much for his ticket minus all the fees, taxes and other costs he incurs (catering, handling etc.)? It must be for a reason why easyJet quickly fell out of low with their 156seat A319s.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:21 am

As much as a CS500 seems like a great idea, given the challenges that BBD are having with the CS100/300 offerings I struggle to see how it can realistically take on a larger variant.

Thats the catch 22 really for BBD. If it doesn't commit to a larger variant it may miss out on orders that may include a range of the CS100/300/500 aircraft in the fleet mix, but if it doesn't have the funding I can't see it happening.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:45 am

I think it's better to be a little bit too long than a little bit too short.

A good example is the 739ER. Those extra seats in the 321are a big reason why it is the top seller.
What the...?
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:16 am

For many airlines a CS300/500 combination would be a very compelling alternative to the A319/320 or B73G/738 and I have no doubt that Bombardier have the skill to develop another class leading aircraft here.

My concern is how or even whether Bombardier can scale production to a point where they could attract/deliver on the kind of bulk orders we see from LCCs and some mainline carriers in the 170-190 seat market. They are talking about a 5 year ramp up to a point where they are rolling out 120 aircraft per year, a sixth of what Airbus is aiming for with the A320 family, for instance.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 12):
I never get the whole save the FA thing. One pax could pay for the FA easy.

Because it's one F/A on every flight operated by an aircraft with this configuration - 33% more crew members required to operate the type network wide. Every time demand sees a flight drop below a 94% load factor (which on average is the majority of the time), it would have been more economical to operate with 150 seats and save on these staff costs.


Dan  
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art
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:37 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 19):
Because it's one F/A on every flight operated by an aircraft with this configuration - 33% more crew members required to operate the type network wide. Every time demand sees a flight drop below a 94% load factor (which on average is the majority of the time), it would have been more economical to operate with 150 seats and save on these staff costs.

Got you there - if there are 151 seats you need 4 FA's, whether you have 1 or 151 pax on the flight.

About the stretch to CS500 - is there a sweet area where fuselage length is at its most efficient? eg lowest drag, extra weight to reinforce is minimised, whatever If that were roundabout the length for 150 seats at standard class mix and pitch, might that be the size to go for?

[Edited 2016-04-30 03:48:21]
 
Oykie
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:07 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 2):
CS500... 160 pax in 32 rows.

That's assuming the standard 32" Y pitch. This is only slightly smaller than the A320 which fits 164 in single class 32" pitch all-Y config. At 30" pitch, they'd get 175 in all-Y. Or maybe they can get 180. It might be tough to target the LCC market anyway. They all want cheap Boeing and Airbus narrowbody configs that they can resell. Bombardier's best bet would be with the above config, which let's them get the CS500 to just under 150 seats in 2-class mainline config.

I belive a CS500 with this seating arrangement would be very competitive. The Cseries have been prefered by airlines like LX, KE and DL, so they may want it a bit longer. But we will see. I agree with your reasoning.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 17):
As much as a CS500 seems like a great idea, given the challenges that BBD are having with the CS100/300 offerings I struggle to see how it can realistically take on a larger variant.

they do not need the CS500 at the moment, given that the CS100 and 300 is now finally gaining momentum. I believe that Bombardier can fill up productionslots all the way to 2020 and then have the CS500 enter service in the 2020-2025 timeframe. The CS500 will still be a much more modern airplane than the A320neo and 737MAC in 20205.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 19):
They are talking about a 5 year ramp up to a point where they are rolling out 120 aircraft per year, a sixth of what Airbus is aiming for with the A320 family, for instance.

I am sure they can increase that number higher if there is sufficient demand for it in 2020. I believe BBD is wise to focus delivering the CS100 and CS300 now and then build up experience and cash before inceasing production.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:24 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 19):
My concern is how or even whether Bombardier can scale production to a point where they could attract/deliver on the kind of bulk orders we see from LCCs and some mainline carriers in the 170-190 seat market. They are talking about a 5 year ramp up to a point where they are rolling out 120 aircraft per year, a sixth of what Airbus is aiming for with the A320 family, for instance.

BBD's production goal has always been 20 aircraft per month...eventually. I suspect they can ramp up more quickly than originally planned. All it takes is more orders.

Quoting art (Reply 20):
About the stretch to CS500 - is there a sweet area where fuselage length is at its most efficient? eg lowest drag, extra weight to reinforce is minimised, whatever If that were roundabout the length for 150 seats at standard class mix and pitch, might that be the size to go for?

Wiki has normal 2 class configurations for the MD-80's as 155 seats, 172 in single class. Seatguru shows an AA MD-80 with 94 Y, 30 Y+ and 16 F, at 140 seats. It shows Delta's MD-90 with 129 Y, 15 Y+ and 16 F, and Delta's MD-88 with 108 Y, 25 Y+ and 16 F.

I'd be surprised if the much more modern CSeries isn't structurally capable of doing at least one more row than the MD's. If nothing else, it's engine on wings configuration is more structurally efficient.
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Amiga500
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:21 pm

Quoting Oykie (Reply 21):
they do not need the CS500 at the moment, given that the CS100 and 300 is now finally gaining momentum. I believe that Bombardier can fill up productionslots all the way to 2020 and then have the CS500 enter service in the 2020-2025 timeframe. The CS500 will still be a much more modern airplane than the A320neo and 737MAC in 20205.

From a design engineering perspective, the sooner its started the better.

Lessons learned on the CS100/300 programs are still fresh in the mind, so best to use that hard, hard, hard earned knowledge rather than piss it away with delayed action.
 
art
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:40 pm

I know BBD are a little short of cash just now but what would a 150 seat 4 row stretch over the CS300 cost?
 
Beatyair
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:01 pm

We know the Swiss have there planes set up in two class of seating.

CS100 = 125
CS300 = 140

The difference in the cabin length between the two planes is approx. +/- 12'. By adding another 12' you should get approx 15 more passengers = 155. My guess word be that they will examine adding 16' to get them to 160 passengers and also look at maybe 20'. There VP has already said the they believe that the CS500 will not require new wings, but that would be for the engineers to determine. The VP also said that there focus is on the two types they have now, but airline like groups of three and Bombardier has been told that. I would also guess that since the CS100 has been certified and the CS300 is about to be certified, that they have a group of engineers looking at the CS500.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:20 pm

If BBD wants a CS500 to appeal to DL/AA/UA as a 738 replacement it needs real transcon range: BOS-SFO with winter headwinds, full baggage compartment, and full passenger count (whether that's 150, 160 or 170+). What AS and WN may need to show less love for Boeing may be a different matter.
 
Beatyair
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:40 pm

It has been talked about but, the money Bombardier has asked for has too and would go towards R & D, I.e. the engineering cost for the CS500.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:47 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 26):
BBD wants a CS500 to appeal to DL/AA/UA as a 738 replacement it needs real transcon range: BOS-SFO with winter headwinds, full baggage compartment, and full passenger count (whether that's 150, 160 or 170+). What AS and WN may need to show less love for Boeing may be a different matter.

If they can get the CS500 to anywhere in the range of the CS100 & CS300 ranges they will have a killer on their hands. A more realistic goal is probably between 2700nm- 2800nm. As read on here BBD has been ultra conservative with numbers used for determining the ranges of their aircraft.Once they enter service I will not be surprised if the Cseries can fly further than what BBD states.
 
ytz
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:56 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 26):

I question the TCON winter full load range requirement. This mission will be on 321NEOs in the future. I'd say going full load from the northeast to Florida is far more important for a 2-class 150 seater.

That said, given the way Bombardier and Pratt are playing with range, they might just get lucky and get TCON.

[Edited 2016-04-30 09:06:47]
 
SVJ77W
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:16 pm

I had seen this one when Delta anounced their orders. Could the CS500 look like this in comparison.

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=cs1...ries+cs500&imgrc=xV9HJ_iBUX4qhM%3A
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:41 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 29):
I'd say going full load from the northeast to Florida is far more important for a 2-class 150 seater.

That's not that hard to do you know. JFK-MIA is only 947nm.
 
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rikkus67
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:06 pm

The C Series wing was optimized for the 300 variant. Much like the 789. With the momentum finally gaining, I believe we will see the CS500 sooner rather than later.

Financing would possibly come from the Govt. of Canada, but could only be used for R&D. If enough orders start coming in from historically/current reluctant Carriers, we may see that BBD might not need further outside funding.

This has certainly become a much more promising story for BBD, than the doom and gloom some plane makers have suggested ad nauseum. I hope we can now see continued success for this aircraft, and company.
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INFINITI329
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:33 pm

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 32):
Financing would possibly come from the Govt. of Canada, but could only be used for R&D. If enough orders start coming in from historically/current reluctant Carriers, we may see that BBD might not need further outside funding.

In the form of a grant or loan?
 
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rikkus67
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:01 pm

Not sure of the specifics (most likely a loan), but it could not be used for the daily business.
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LAXDESI
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:14 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 2):
CS100...120 pax in 24 rows.
CS300...140 pax in 28 rows.
.
.
.
Logically I'd say:

CS500... 160 pax in 32 rows.

That's assuming the standard 32" Y pitch.

My estimate based on 11' additional stretch for CS500 over CS300:

Aircraft ............................................. CS300............................CS500
Fuselage Length(feet).......................127.................................138
Cabin Length.........................................90.................................101
Seating
Dual class (36in. J/32 Y) ..................130 (12J + 118Y) ........149 (16J + 133Y)
Single class (32 in. pitch) .................140 ................................165
Single class(31 in, pitch)...................145 ................................170
Single Class(30 in. pitch)................. 150 ................................ 175

The 138 foot long CS500 can match A320 in seating capacity with better comfort.

The 5-abreast platform is less efficient at utilizing cabin area than the 6-abreast platform as it has the same amount of aisle width/area used for 5 seats per row as does 6-abreast platform(B737/A320). As an example, the CS300 at 140 Y seats is 127 feet long(fuselage), while the 737-700 is 110 feet long with 140 Y seats at 32" pitch. My calculations suggest that the CS300 has about 945 sq. feet of cabin space versus 915 Sq. feet for 737-700.

My back of the envelope calculations suggest that, for comparable technology, the efficiency dividing line between 6-abreast and 5-abreast platform is around 150 Y seats. However, keep in mind that CS series has more advanced technology than the current 6-abreast NEO and MAX competition, and thus CS500 may be able to get to 165 Y seat capacity and still be better than A320NEO.

The 138 foot long proposed CS500 can be an 1:1 replacement for A320NEO. I have not run the numbers but I expect 138 foot long CS500 to have lower fuel burn than A320NEO.
 
ytz
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:15 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 18):
I think it's better to be a little bit too long than a little bit too short.

The limitation is commonality. At a certain point, increasing capacity will mean a new wing or landing gear, etc. At that point, everything from manufacturing costs to operating costs increase.

The other issue is range. The larger it gets, the higher the range trade-off. And it's probably at the TCON range limit with 160-165.

And from what I understand I don't think the wing is sized for more than 160-165 seats (single class 32" pitch).

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 18):
A good example is the 739ER. Those extra seats in the 321are a big reason why it is the top seller.

The 739 is not the operative example. The 320 and 738 are. And both sell decently even though the 320 is slightly smaller than the 738.

[Edited 2016-04-30 16:38:26]
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:28 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 35):
Aircraft ............................................. CS300............................CS500
Fuselage Length(feet).......................127.................................138
Cabin Length.........................................90.................................101
Seating
Dual class (36in. J/32 Y) ..................130 (12J + 118Y) ........149 (16J + 133Y)
Single class (32 in. pitch) .................140 ................................165
Single class(31 in, pitch)...................145 ................................170
Single Class(30 in. pitch)................. 150 ................................ 175

Good calcuations, but Swiss is supposidly putting dual class in the CS300 with 145 seats. The CS300 is/will be certified for 160 pax in single class. I wonder what their seat pitch is going to be.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sun May 01, 2016 12:05 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 37):
Good calcuations, but Swiss is supposidly putting dual class in the CS300 with 145 seats. The CS300 is/will be certified for 160 pax in single class. I wonder what their seat pitch is going to be.

You would need to be at 28" seat pitch to accomodate 160 seats. At 29" seat pitch you would get 155 seats. As a reference point, AirAsia has 180 seats on A320 at 29" pitch.
 
ytz
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sun May 01, 2016 12:08 am

If at 160 seats at 32", then I'd say 175 seats at 30". Which means 180 @ 29". Starts getting competitive with the A320.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sun May 01, 2016 1:28 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 39):
If at 160 seats at 32", then I'd say 175 seats at 30". Which means 180 @ 29". Starts getting competitive with the A320.

I expect BBD to focus on the needs of mainline carriers more than LCCs. The 5-abreast CS platform has an advantage over 6-abreast platform in two class layouts (relative to single class y layout) as the CS business class seats use less cabin area per seat than 6-abreast platforms.

BBD may have to go to 139 feet length for CS500 to accomodate 150 total seats in 3 class layouts (with C, W+, and Y) as is the case with Delta's MD88.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sun May 01, 2016 2:13 am

I think a CS500 has to be developed with a CS700 in mind with both models having a 3000nm range given they will be in direct competition with A&B. So here is what a CS500 will look like:
* Slightly modified wing for 3000nm range
* A forward plug 3 seat rows and aft and aft plug of 2 seat word from the wing that will give the CS500 165 seats in a single class configuration
* same fly by wire with mods to the control laws as required
* same packs
* same APU
* slightly modified engines
* strengthened gear and wings
* bigger stack brakes
* same avionics
* same hydraulics, fuel, and electrical systems with slight modifications
* MTOW increased by about 20,000 pounds for the additional payload, fuel and structure

I think that they have a design and are waiting for the go-ahead.
Only the paranoid survive
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3632
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sun May 01, 2016 3:05 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 4):

I believe the CS300 is the base model, while CS100 is the shrunk version?

Nope they started with the 100, added the 300 & talked about adding the 500 from the earl days of the program.
 
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JetBuddy
Posts: 2578
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sun May 01, 2016 4:16 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 42):
Nope they started with the 100, added the 300 & talked about adding the 500 from the earl days of the program.

Are you sure about that? The wings, gear and engines are all sized for the CS300, while a bit oversized for the CS100.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sun May 01, 2016 5:26 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 42):

The 100 and the 300 were designed from the start to be a set and to have as close to 100% commonality as possible. I suspect the 100 was only developed first because, using less material, it was cheaper to develop.

Even though the 100 came first, from a design standpoint, it is a shrink of the 300. The 500, (at least the first version), will most likely be a simple stretch, trading range for seats. They should have no problem of using the MTOW of the 300, and more than matching the passenger load and range of the MD-80's and 90's, with a 15-25% increase in efficiency.

While it's sexy to look at transcon range, most of the single aisles out there are flying much shorter legs. Even at 2500nm, it would be able to non stop over most of N.America, with only the occasional westward wet stop. It means anywhere in Europe from anywhere else in Europe. LHR gets you to Tel Aviv, all of N.Africa, the western half of Russia, even Newfoundland, if you were so inclined.

I think more seats would be more valuable to airlines than more range. I would stretch it to its practical limits while maintaining the 300's MTOW. More seats is the easiest way to improve CASM, and for the CSeries to play with the big boys, it needs to be clearly the best at something, I mean really stand out...and I think that something is efficiency over 2500nm...at least for the first version.

A full 5 row stretch would get the same seats numbers as the 738, with clearly significantly superior trip costs.

Once they have the stretch selling, they can make an HGW/LR version to make up the range.

They should go after the bulk of the market which are flights of less than 2000nm. 6 hour narrow body flights are a niche market in comparison to sub 4 hour flights. There are a thousand MD's with less than 2500nm range that airlines are perfectly happy with...but will need replacing.

I don't see any reason to compromise the bulk of the market for the questionable goal of maximum range. There will be thousands and thousands of 737's and 320's that can fill the transcon slots, and not only are they not going away, thousands more are coming down the line.

A maximum range CS500 doesn't set itself apart from the crowd nearly as well as a maximum CASM aircraft would.
What the...?
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sun May 01, 2016 1:46 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 40):

I expect BBD to focus on the needs of mainline carriers more than LCCs.

I think it would do more with how many frames they want. I'd keep both in mind.
 
LAXDESI
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sun May 01, 2016 2:11 pm

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 41):
I think a CS500 has to be developed with a CS700 in mind with both models having a 3000nm range given they will be in direct competition with A&B. So here is what a CS500 will look like:
* Slightly modified wing for 3000nm range

The CS300 is at 3,300nm design range and is expected to increase its range with weight reduction over time. It may be possible to keep the current wing, thus keeping development costs low, and get close to a 3,000 nm range for CS500 with a simple stretch.

When you compare A333 to A332, it is about 8.2% longer, 4.1% heavier, and has 7.5% lower range. Comparing 138 foot CS500 to CS300, it would be about 8.7% longer, 4.4% heavier, with about 3,036nm range(8% lower range than CS300).

I don't see how 150 foot long 5-abreast CS700(185 Y seats @32" pitch) will compete against a likely all new 6-abreast response from either Airbus or Boeing. The 5-abreast platform is at a clear disadvantage at that kind of capacity.

It is best to offer one size like the 138/139 foot long CS500(165 Y seats @32") with around 3,000nm range. The 139 foot length enables a mainline carrier to configure it at 150 seats in three class layout(C,W+, Y).
 
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Boeing717200
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:26 pm

RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sun May 01, 2016 9:22 pm

Simple four row stretch. Extra over wing exit. Done.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8499
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Sun May 01, 2016 11:52 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 44):
They should go after the bulk of the market which are flights of less than 2000nm. 6 hour narrow body flights are a niche market in comparison to sub 4 hour flights. There are a thousand MD's with less than 2500nm range that airlines are perfectly happy with...but will need replacing.

I don't see any reason to compromise the bulk of the market for the questionable goal of maximum range. There will be thousands and thousands of 737's and 320's that can fill the transcon slots, and not only are they not going away, thousands more are coming down the line.

If a big carrier needs fifty MAX 8s to handle transcon duties, it may as well order 400 across the whole family 7/8/9 (or Airbus equivalent). That way it gets pilot rating and parts commonality. Failure on that level is how BBD became so utterly desperate for DL's order. A CS500 that can't compete straight-up for the heart of the market at the four largest narrowbody operators simply shouldn't exist.
 
robsaw
Posts: 444
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:14 am

RE: Bombardier CS500: Characteristics?

Mon May 02, 2016 3:14 am

Quoting INFINITI329 (Reply 33):
In the form of a grant or loan?
Quoting INFINITI329 (Reply 33):

Not sure of the specifics (most likely a loan), but it could not be used for the daily business.

Neither a loan nor a grant, if it matches what the Quebec gov't did, which is what BBD wants. Although some rumours suggest the Fed's do want a pure credit structure.

"Under terms of the partnership, Quebec will get a 49.5-per-cent stake in the C Series program. The province can also exercise warrants to buy up to 200 million class B shares in the company at a price equivalent to $2.21 (Canadian), for a potential stake of about 9 per cent."

There are conditions/options for BBD buyback of the Quebec gov't shares in this partnership but I couldn't refind the details.

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