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blacksoviet
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Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:37 am

Does the US-Israel "special relationship" mean that El Al receives special discounts for flying an all-Boeing fleet?
 
ericm2031
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:52 am

I doubt they receive any more than anyone else. And they might actually get less than some since Boeing probably expects to easily get their business
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:18 am

It has more to do with France and Israel not being best of buds.

Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 1):
And they might actually get less than some since Boeing probably expects to easily get their business

What about the extra security mods ElAl has? Does Boeing install them or is that done elsewhere?
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32andBelow
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:25 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 2):
What about the extra security mods ElAl has? Does Boeing install them or is that done elsewhere?

El Al planes might as well be part of the Isreali Military.
 
art
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:33 am

I doubt Boeing has to sell at anything near their best price. Don't remember how long ago El Al ordered some Airbus kit but it was made clear to El Al that this sort of behaviour was unacceptable, so El Al cancelled and bought US kit instead. Suppliers don't offer too good a discount if you're not allowed to buy from their competitors.   
 
kdonohue
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:38 am

An El Al executive told me they seriously considered the Airbus A350 and A330neo before deciding on the Boeing 787. They took almost a year to study proposals from both manufacturers.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:03 pm

Quoting art (Reply 4):
Don't remember how long ago El Al ordered some Airbus kit but it was made clear to El Al that this sort of behaviour was unacceptable, so El Al cancelled and bought US kit instead.

Late 90s. El Al had decided to order the A319 as their new narrowbody fleet. US government stepped in and basically made them order the 737NG instead. Happened again a bit later: they had decided on a combination of A330s and 777s for the long-haul fleet. Guess which type never got delivered?
 
EL-AL
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:03 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 6):
Late 90s

When El Al was still owned by the government. Today its a private airline, working to make profit.
every day is a good day to fly
 
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euroflyer
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:31 pm

Quoting blacksoviet (Thread starter):
Does the US-Israel "special relationship" mean that El Al receives special discounts for flying an all-Boeing fleet?

As per Israel-US tight relationship, there are some preferential agreements of course. But you won't find evidence easily.
Born to fly !
 
blacksoviet
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 6:54 am

Who did El Al sell their 762s to?
 
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GE9X
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 7:55 am

Doesn't El Al have, uhh, "specialized" equipment on their planes? This may be one of many reasons why they always go with Boeing, if Airbus as an integrator doesn't want to deal with installing Israeli military technology or even having that kind of system on their aircraft. Unfortunately all of this is also very political.
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:03 am

G'day

Quoting kdonohue (Reply 5):
seriously considered the Airbus A350 and A330neo before deciding on the Boeing

I seriously doubt Airbus these days even offers their wares to El Al after their previous negative experiences with winning contests just to have them cancelled again for political reasons
  

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blacksoviet
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:06 am

What kind of special military technology does El Al install on its planes?
 
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thekorean
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:17 am

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 11):

AB can't be that petty especially since now El Al is under different management.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:23 am

whatever secret stuff they add to the aircraft, they do that at home. Israel is a high tech Country, they Export security items developed in Israel
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:27 am

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 11):
I seriously doubt Airbus these days even offers their wares to El Al after their previous negative experiences with winning contests just to have them cancelled again for political reasons

They'll make as many proposals as they have to to satisfy their diligence requirements, but, yeah, I doubt they go any further beyond that.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
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GE9X
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:29 am

Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 12):
What kind of special military technology does El Al install on its planes?

The only thing that's confirmed is that they have a radar flare system to deflect missile attacks, but it was reported that they have newer high-tech laser countermeasures as well. There was a big issue about this with Switzerland not allowing El Al to land in their country with these systems installed, ostensibly because of fire risks but also because they are essentially military systems, which would create big sovereignty issues in the case they were activated.
 
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Fly-K
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 9:24 am

Quoting GE9X (Reply 10):
Doesn't El Al have, uhh, "specialized" equipment on their planes? This may be one of many reasons why they always go with Boeing, if Airbus as an integrator doesn't want to deal with installing Israeli military technology or even having that kind of system on their aircraft. Unfortunately all of this is also very political.

There was recently a pic of an Israir A320 with similar "equipment" installed.
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mjoelnir
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 9:27 am

I think the 787 order by El Al is simply on merit. Nobody orders EL AL to buy Boeing. The USA may be the biggest financial contributor to Israel, but Germany is number two. I do not know where the EU as a whole stands in this.

Regarding trade the EU as a whole is the biggest trade partner of Israel with about 30% of the whole trade, followed by The USA with about 19% (2015 numbers).

I would also not say that relation ship between Israel and the EU are bad. The main difference is that critic of Israel's politic (and I mean politic not country) seems to be permitted in the EU and beaten down or jumped on immediately in the USA.
 
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AviatorW6
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 9:37 am

uthorities ha

Quoting Fly-K (Reply 18):
There was recently a pic of an Israir A320 with similar "equipment" installed.

I think there are certain safety equipments (like anti-missile system) mandatory on all Israeli registered commercial passenger aircrafts. I recall reading somewhere that Israeli authorities had issues with Israir's ATRs becuase that type was not capable of accomodating some of such equipments.

[Edited 2016-05-12 02:38:37]
 
sxf24
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 12:25 pm

Based on what EL AL shows financiers when looking for financing, it's pricing is pretty good for an airline of its size. EL AL has a reputation of being a very tough negotiator.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 12:39 pm

Quoting GE9X (Reply 10):
Doesn't El Al have, uhh, "specialized" equipment on their planes? This may be one of many reasons why they always go with Boeing, if Airbus as an integrator doesn't want to deal with installing Israeli military technology or even having that kind of system on their aircraft.

Given the world we live in, I would imagine Airbus would be glad to have such integration happen. It would only increase the value of the aircraft they provide.

Quoting GE9X (Reply 16):
There was a big issue about this with Switzerland not allowing El Al to land in their country with these systems installed, ostensibly because of fire risks but also because they are essentially military systems, which would create big sovereignty issues in the case they were activated.

Sounds like a tempest in a tea cup to me.
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ec99
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 1:08 pm

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 7):
When El Al was still owned by the government. Today its a private airline, working to make profit.

This is true and very salient. On other threads thread many European posters have emphasized a similar point about AB moving from a government owned company to a private company around the same time.

That said, I wonder how free they really are to buy AB airplanes. Doing so could cause a political issue in America (specifically the senators from S. Carolina and Washington), which may not be in Israel’s best interest. Governments exert political pressure on companies all the time and I cannot help but think the Israeli government would prefer not to deal any backlash from El Al buying AB. I do not think El Al is prohibited from doing so, I just think all things about equal, they have a little extra reason to choose Boeing.
 
csavel
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 2:09 pm

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 7):
When El Al was still owned by the government. Today its a private airline, working to make profit.
Quoting ec99 (Reply 22):
Doing so could cause a political issue in America (specifically the senators from S. Carolina and Washington), which may not be in Israel’s best interest. Governments exert political pressure on companies all the time and I cannot help but think the Israeli government would prefer not to deal any backlash from El Al buying AB. I do not think El Al is prohibited from doing so, I just think all things about equal, they have a little extra reason to choose Boeing.

This, imagine that El-Al decided to order AB, some major senators held up aid, even some major Jewish senators noted as pro-Israel made harrumphing statements (e.g. Charles Schumer). Them imagine the media sh*tstorm in notoriously brass-knuckled Israeli press.

No *orders* but definitely peer pressure. Happens all the time in all countries in all industries.
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A350
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Thu May 12, 2016 6:02 pm

El Al's decision in favour of the 787 is not really surprising, it justs fits too well to their needs (as it is generally a very good match for the longhaul needs of smaller airlines). What might get really interesting is that they will have to decide between the 737MAX and the A32s NEO one day. A 320Neo / A321Neo / A321 NeoLR combo seems to be very useful for LY.
 
avi
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Fri May 13, 2016 3:16 pm

El Al did get a big discount when they bought the forth B744 (4X-ELD) in the late 90's but that was as a partially compensation for the loss of the B742 freighter (4X-AXG) in Amsterdam (which was Boeing fault).
Long live the B747
 
blacksoviet
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Fri May 13, 2016 5:36 pm

How was it Boeings fault?
 
avi
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Fri May 13, 2016 5:44 pm

Don't you know the LY1862 story?
Long live the B747
 
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Stitch
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RE: Does El Al Receive Discounts From Boeing?

Fri May 13, 2016 5:54 pm

Quoting ec99 (Reply 22):
That said, I wonder how free they really are to buy AB airplanes. Doing so could cause a political issue in America (specifically the senators from S. Carolina and Washington), which may not be in Israel’s best interest.

A fair bit of kit in Airbus airframes comes from US companies so I imagine the Senators from those states would push as hard for a deal (with Airbus) that benefits their constituents.

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